New 175 Suzie

[thump-a]

I"ve just bought a new 175 suzie 4 stroke to replace my twin 70 hp johno"s 2 strokes ; well thats not right ; I bought a 140 hp suzie 4 stroke first but it wouldn"t get my 6 metre Stessle Yellowfin out of the water. The 175 is a great motor but i"am not 100% happy yet. I"ve picked up a extra 12 km per hour & 75% better on fuel. Top end i get 65 km per hour & get about 1.75 km per litre running a 3 x 16 x 20 prop max reves around 5800 rpm.
Would lifting or lowering the motor make any difference ????
I"ve been told about a 4 blade prop 4 x 16 x 20 what differences would a extra blade make ????
Any advise would be very gratefull
Thanks Graham

[ozbee]

it will hold you up on the plane better in rough conditions especially around the 20 knt mark , lose a bit of top end most likely, fuel consumption much the same as i doubt you have much slippage anyhow

[ozscott]

Mate - what does your boat weigh!!!! The Vagabond with the 93 115 V4 Yam 2 stroke gets 65kph flat out at 5700 odd rpm with 2 blokes, 150litres of fuel, 2 batteries, and gear...it also gets out of the whole very quickly (even before I installed tabs); 21 degree deadrise at the stern....I know the V4 Yammy's box above their weight, but surely your 175 would have to eat it?

[peterbo3]

My 175 revs out to 6200. You could be a tad over propped.

[Luke G]

Lift it up a hole first and go from there. A 4 blade prop will give you more lift, but it will also slow your top end down and cruise. How much does it cavitate now?

[suzygs1000]

Mate, you really have a serious problem somewhere!! A 140hp Suzy won't get a 6m Yellowfin on the plane??

I have a 140 Suzy on a 6 metre plate, and some blokes even reckon it is overpowered. Planing with 5 and a load on board is a breeze.

Really, I would be doing some sort of investigation into your hull, transom , or setup somewhere!

Dave.

[honda900]

Thumpa,

I have a 6 metre glass boat with a Zuke 140, I like you had major issues when I picked up the boat and the boat flat out would not plane, however, after much testing with props I found that changing the prop made a huge difference.

From my personal experience, I have found that the 4 blade props allow the boat to plane and stay on the plane much more quickly and do it far easier, I can now plane at 3200 rpm, with a 3 blade it was around 4k mark.

I have also found that the 4 blade does not loose so many rpms when stuck on the back of a greenie and certainly does not struggle to gain rpm to get over it. So for Offshore applications this has made a huge difference.

Just a question, but what engine size is your boat rated for? and are you in with the weight?

Anyway some figures I assembled below these may or may not help you but maybe give you some indication of what I found.

Regards
HOnda

Suzuki 13*21 - 3Blade Speed
1000 5.5
2000 10.3
3000 15.4
4000 33.3
WOT 59
Hole shot > 5 seconds

Suzuki 14*19 - 3 Blade Speed
1000 5.5
2000 10.3
3000 15.4
4000 33.3
WOT -6100 59.6
Hole shot 2.4

Solas 13 7/8*19- 3 blade Speed
1000 6.5
2000 10.7
3000 15.3
4000 32.2
5000 45.7
WOT -61500 60.5
Hole shot 2.2

Solas 13*21 - 4 blade Speed
1000
2000 9.4
3000 13
4000 21
WOT N/A
Hole shot N/A

Turning point 14*21
1000 6.9
2000 11.8
3000 16.2
4000 38.5
5000 51.4
WOT - 5700 58.2
Hole shot > 5 seconds

Solas 13 7/8 * 21 Fuel LPH
1000 6.5
2000 11.5
3000 16.5
4000 36 18.9 Lph
5000 52
WOT 5800 60.8
Hole shot > 5 seconds 35.5 Lph

Solas 13*19 - 4 blade -uncupped Speed
1000 6.4
2000 11.3
3000 16.4
4000 35.3
5000 48.2
WOT-6000 60
Hole shot 2.2

Solas 14 1/8 *18 - 4 blade Speed Fuel LPH
1000 6.8 1.4
2000 10.9 5.8
3000 16.4 11.4
4000 36.3 17.4
5000 49.6 26.8
WOT-6000 63.5 40.1
Hole shot 2

[Moonlighter]

I just posted this link on another thread re how to work out the correct height for your motor. Article is from one of the Verado Club's technical gurus in the USA.

http://www.veradoclub.com/smf/index.php?topic=137.0 (http://www.veradoclub.com/smf/index.php?topic=137.0)

None of us can tell you whether or not to lift or for that matter lower the height of your motor, all I can suggest is to have a read of that article and check your engine height as per their procedures. Once you've done that you'll be able to answer your question about engine height yourself and decide if it needs to be lifted or not.

Hope this helps.

ML

[thump-a]

Mate - what does your boat weigh!!!! The Vagabond with the 93 115 V4 Yam 2 stroke gets 65kph flat out at 5700 odd rpm with 2 blokes, 150litres of fuel, 2 batteries, and gear...it also gets out of the whole very quickly (even before I installed tabs); 21 degree deadrise at the stern....I know the V4 Yammy's box above their weight, but surely your 175 would have to eat it?

G/day Ozscott
Total weight on trailer is 1975 kgs.
I think that on the water boat ; motor ; fuel & fishing gear around 1500 kgs probibly more

[thump-a]

My 175 revs out to 6200. You could be a tad over propped.

G/day peterbo
Curently running a Suzuki 3 x 16 x 20 prop
have tried a 3 x 16 x19 which overrevved ;
tried a 3 x 16 x 21.5 max rev was 4900
Tried a 3 x 15 x 21 revved to 5800 but lacked power
What size prop do you run ???

[thump-a]

Lift it up a hole first and go from there. A 4 blade prop will give you more lift, but it will also slow your top end down and cruise. How much does it cavitate now?

G/day luke
The only time it cavitates is when you push the throtle down to get going if you lower the motor it does"nt cavitate very much at all

[thump-a]

Mate, you really have a serious problem somewhere!! A 140hp Suzy won't get a 6m Yellowfin on the plane??

I have a 140 Suzy on a 6 metre plate, and some blokes even reckon it is overpowered. Planing with 5 and a load on board is a breeze.

Really, I would be doing some sort of investigation into your hull, transom , or setup somewhere!

Dave.

G/day dave
What can i say the 140 was grossly underpowered
3000 rpm = 15 kmh
3500 rpm = 19 kmh
4000 rpm = 27 kmh
4500 rpm = 30 kmh
5000 rpm = 40 kmh
5500 rpm = 45 kmh
6000 rpm = 50 kmh
6600 rpm = 55 kmh
I was"nt prepared to spend $20 grand to get an extra 3 kmh

[thump-a]

Thumpa,

I have a 6 metre glass boat with a Zuke 140, I like you had major issues when I picked up the boat and the boat flat out would not plane, however, after much testing with props I found that changing the prop made a huge difference.

From my personal experience, I have found that the 4 blade props allow the boat to plane and stay on the plane much more quickly and do it far easier, I can now plane at 3200 rpm, with a 3 blade it was around 4k mark.

I have also found that the 4 blade does not loose so many rpms when stuck on the back of a greenie and certainly does not struggle to gain rpm to get over it. So for Offshore applications this has made a huge difference.

Just a question, but what engine size is your boat rated for? and are you in with the weight?

Anyway some figures I assembled below these may or may not help you but maybe give you some indication of what I found.

Regards
HOnda

Suzuki 13*21 - 3Blade Speed
1000 5.5
2000 10.3
3000 15.4
4000 33.3
WOT 59
Hole shot > 5 seconds

Suzuki 14*19 - 3 Blade Speed
1000 5.5
2000 10.3
3000 15.4
4000 33.3
WOT -6100 59.6
Hole shot 2.4

Solas 13 7/8*19- 3 blade Speed
1000 6.5
2000 10.7
3000 15.3
4000 32.2
5000 45.7
WOT -61500 60.5
Hole shot 2.2

Solas 13*21 - 4 blade Speed
1000
2000 9.4
3000 13
4000 21
WOT N/A
Hole shot N/A

Turning point 14*21
1000 6.9
2000 11.8
3000 16.2
4000 38.5
5000 51.4
WOT - 5700 58.2
Hole shot > 5 seconds

Solas 13 7/8 * 21 Fuel LPH
1000 6.5
2000 11.5
3000 16.5
4000 36 18.9 Lph
5000 52
WOT 5800 60.8
Hole shot > 5 seconds 35.5 Lph

Solas 13*19 - 4 blade -uncupped Speed
1000 6.4
2000 11.3
3000 16.4
4000 35.3
5000 48.2
WOT-6000 60
Hole shot 2.2

Solas 14 1/8 *18 - 4 blade Speed Fuel LPH
1000 6.8 1.4
2000 10.9 5.8
3000 16.4 11.4
4000 36.3 17.4
5000 49.6 26.8
WOT-6000 63.5 40.1
Hole shot 2

G/day Honda
Thanks for all the info with props
My Yellowfin was rated to max 140 hp
I had to get a marine surveyer to certify it could carry a 175 hp outboard

[thump-a]

I just posted this link on another thread re how to work out the correct height for your motor. Article is from one of the Verado Club's technical gurus in the USA.

http://www.veradoclub.com/smf/index.php?topic=137.0 (http://www.veradoclub.com/smf/index.php?topic=137.0)

None of us can tell you whether or not to lift or for that matter lower the height of your motor, all I can suggest is to have a read of that article and check your engine height as per their procedures. Once you've done that you'll be able to answer your question about engine height yourself and decide if it needs to be lifted or not.

Hope this helps.

ML

G/day ML
Checked out that web site and found it very interesting
Will take note next time i"am on the water

[peterbo3]

Hi thump-a,
I have a 6400 Fisher full cab which is a fair bit heavier than your Yellowfin. The deadrise is 23 deg & I carry 300L of fuel.
I spin a standard Suzi 3 blade 15 1/4 X 19 in stainless. I could probably go up in pitch but I am very happy with the way the 175 runs. I get around 1.5 km to the litre averaged out with a top speed around 37 knots on a flat track.
From your later posts it appears that you have tried out plenty of props so that may not be the issue. You need to be able to run the 175 out to 6100 at WOT otherwise the motor will lug at lower RPM. You obviously do not need to run at 6100 but the ability to get those revs will indicate that the motor, hull & prop are correctly matched. I think you will lose some RPM with the four blade fan.
I am now thinking, as others are, that the motor may be in the wrong hole. Can you post a pic of the transom & motor down from the side? If you can run a straight edge from the keel back to the ventilation plate then that will be even better.

[Luke G]

As peter said above see if you can post a pic of your set up.

With my 150 I gained about 200 revs and 3 knots when I lifted it up a hole. It also used less fuel

[ozscott]

Mate - with 2 blokes and gear and fuel I would be a little over 1600kg on the water, and with the 21 degree transom angle that requires more power than a lot of plate boats (not all obviously)...so again that says something is amiss with your set up...but I cannot imagine what.

Cheers

[thump-a]

G/day everyone
going to try and post some pictures
everything looks fine to me

[Fisher4life]

Just posting a couple pics that i have of the boat for graham.

Moonlighter that is an excellent link that you have got there and it's something that i was unaware of. As graham is the skipper i have climbed over the back looking at where the motor is sitting while on the plane and from memory, the water line is in-between the the 2 plates, if you refer to the last pic, between the red and the green one where the arrows are. and it creates a fair amount of spray as the water shoots off from hitting the red plate.

so would i be correct if i said that the motor is sitting too low and needs to be lifted up so that the water is sitting level with the plate i've marked with a red arrow?

I think we'll have to take it for another run before we make any changes to be sure.

Cheers
Josh

[peterbo3]

Josh,
The anti-ventilation plate is the one marked with the green arrow. That needs to be skimming the water as shown in the Verado link. So take it for a run & try to work out how far below the water it is running. Then raise the motor & check it again.

[Moonlighter]

Thanks - yes, that's a really informative article and the pictures really tell the story.

I agree with Peter. The plate you've marked with the green arrow is the cav plate - the largest one immediately above the prop.

Its the one they refer to in the Verado article as needing to Not be under water when planing at a normal crusing speed with the motor trimmed to its usual level.

If that plate is underwater in those conditions then yes, as the article says your motor is too deep and needs to be lifted one or maybe 2 holes - you'll only know when you've got it right by lifting it and testing it again.

And as the atricle highlights, its important to get the motor height right BEFORE playing around with different props!

Good luck, hope you can let us know how you go.

ML

[Luke G]

I would go up 2 holes looking at that. Then hold on!

[mirage]

I agree with Luke. Lift it up one or two and hold on. That boat should fly with that donk!

[black runner]

Josh,

That's one hell of a wing/parachute in the canopy and deck shade. What's the performance difference without it. I may be wrong but I suspect (motor height and prop selection aside) it may contribute to the relative differences in performance quoted from similar sized and powered boats on this thread. The resistance increases exponentially with speed.

There is no doubt that the 140 at only 100 cc's over the 115 (2044 vs 1950) is a lightweight 140, especially when you consider that the 150/175 is a tad over 2800cc.

Cheers

[thump-a]

[quote=Moonlighter;956929]Thanks - yes, that's a really informative article and the pictures really tell the story.

I agree with Peter. The plate you've marked with the green arrow is the cav plate - the largest one immediately above the prop.

Its the one they refer to in the Verado article as needing to Not be under water when planing at a normal crusing speed with the motor trimmed to its usual level.

If that plate is underwater in those conditions then yes, as the article says your motor is too deep and needs to be lifted one or maybe 2 holes - you'll only know when you've got it right by lifting it and testing it again.

And as the atricle highlights, its important to get the motor height right BEFORE playing around with different props!

Good luck, hope you can let us know how you go.

G/day Moonlighter;
Completed a water test earlier today to compare to the verado web site
We put yellow electrical tape on both upper fins and red on the cav. plate
At normal cruise speed ; motor trimed water was running between both tellow fins. Going by the Verado site the motor needs to be lifted 60 to 70 mm.
I"ve just returned from the boat yard where i bought the motor ; showed him some photos i had of the motor on the plane with the yellow & red tape and he ashored me the motor was at the right height and if i lifted it it would cavatate a lot. He also stated by lifting so the cav plate was level or above the water line like verado site 1/3 of the prop would be out of the water.
I"ve instructed him to lift the motor 1 hole regardless and will make my own mind up on performance
Sorry i can"t post these photos on this site it just doesn"t work
Thanks Graham

[black runner]

So Thumpa, as a starting point, where is the anti-vent plate relative to the keel and lowest point of the pod?

[mirage]

Hi Thumpa,
I don't want to say your mechanic is wrong but from my experience that cav plate, as many have already said, should be just clear of the water when on the plane. The prop will NOT be 1/3 out of the water. I'm sure you'll notice a big difference when he raises the motor and probably a bigger difference if he raised it 2 holes!

[Moonlighter]

Hi Graham

It will be interesting to see what difference it makes lifting 1 hole, but it seems from what you've said that its so far down that it might only make a little difference. If its 60 to 70mm as you say, then its at least 2 holes too low, maybe 3!

I reckon your outboard mob are being too conservative by far.

As the Verado site says, these modern motors are equipped with over-rev prevention so apart from the cost of actually lifting it, what have you got to lose? If it comes up 2 holes and it cavitates like crazy, you'll simply drop it back down a notch. If it doesn't, then you'll have a winner on your hands for sure!

I also liked the Verado experts procedure about running the WOT test- gradually trimming right out until the prop loses grip, then dropping down a bit until it grips, then seeing what RPM you're getting. They stressed that the overev protection would do its job, and I'm sure it does. If you lift it say 2 notches and can still do this test and trim it out a fair way before it lets go, you will have learnt a fair bit about setting up motors I reckon!

[Luke G]

I would tell the Mechanic to go up 2 holes thump-a - for the reasons stated above.

[thump-a]

So Thumpa, as a starting point, where is the anti-vent plate relative to the keel and lowest point of the pod?

G/day black runner
The cav. plate is about 1/4 of a inch / level with the bottom of the boat
On the plane its well in the water tou can"t see it
Thanks graham

[thump-a]

Hi Thumpa,
I don't want to say your mechanic is wrong but from my experience that cav plate, as many have already said, should be just clear of the water when on the plane. The prop will NOT be 1/3 out of the water. I'm sure you'll notice a big difference when he raises the motor and probably a bigger difference if he raised it 2 holes!

G/day mirage
I think your right
I think as the motor goes up i"ll be able to trim it down better which will lessen the down force on the rear of the boat making it more streamline
I"ll just go 1 hole at a time
tthanks

[thump-a]

Hi Graham

It will be interesting to see what difference it makes lifting 1 hole, but it seems from what you've said that its so far down that it might only make a little difference. If its 60 to 70mm as you say, then its at least 2 holes too low, maybe 3!

I reckon your outboard mob are being too conservative by far.

As the Verado site says, these modern motors are equipped with over-rev prevention so apart from the cost of actually lifting it, what have you got to lose? If it comes up 2 holes and it cavitates like crazy, you'll simply drop it back down a notch. If it doesn't, then you'll have a winner on your hands for sure!

I also liked the Verado experts procedure about running the WOT test- gradually trimming right out until the prop loses grip, then dropping down a bit until it grips, then seeing what RPM you're getting. They stressed that the overev protection would do its job, and I'm sure it does. If you lift it say 2 notches and can still do this test and trim it out a fair way before it lets go, you will have learnt a fair bit about setting up motors I reckon!

G/ day moonlighter
Your probibly right i beleive it will be two holes at least but i"ll just go one at a
time ; i think i"ll be able to notice the difference hole by hole
Thanks graham

[thump-a]

Josh,

That's one hell of a wing/parachute in the canopy and deck shade. What's the performance difference without it. I may be wrong but I suspect (motor height and prop selection aside) it may contribute to the relative differences in performance quoted from similar sized and powered boats on this thread. The resistance increases exponentially with speed.

There is no doubt that the 140 at only 100 cc's over the 115 (2044 vs 1950) is a lightweight 140, especially when you consider that the 150/175 is a tad over 2800cc.

Cheers

Yes your right but it get bloody hot!! up here in Townsville and after a two day ; overnight trip your thankful for the shade
Ive never tried the boat without the shade / canopy maybe in winter ill take it off and see
Thanks graham

[thump-a]

G/day everyone
Its also my beleif that the steering will also become easier as the motor is raised

[Jabba_]

That is correct, and when you motor is set correctly the Stern will feel a lot flightier... It's a weird feeling at first, but once you become familiar with it you wouldn't have it any other way...

As mentioned, get you motor raise 2 hole when you mechanic lift it.. It will help you fnd the sweet spot faster... Meaning lest trips to your mechanic..

[black runner]

From the Verado Site

A buried cavplate is like dragging a bucket on a rope behind your boat: total drag that hurts performance and puts pressure (pull) on the transom.An additional advantage in raising is the powerhead 1 -3 inches higher off the water is it reduces the salt/water mist, that gets in the motor and causes corrosion

Mmmm - There is no way that an outboard which is generating forward thrust can at the same time, be "pulling" on the transom in the other direction due to drag created by the anti-ventilation plate. All that can happen is that the thrust generated by the prop is reduced by the amount of drag generated by the lower unit. The man has forgotten his physics in the excitement of the moment!

Given the design of your transom the main planing surface is forward of the pod
from chine to chine. So it follows that the rear of the pod may be lower in the water at planing speed than the true transom. This is why the motor, while it is aligned with the bottom of the pod, is ending up too low at plane.

Just my opinion

Cheers

[thump-a]

G/day
Yea i'am sure you guys are right it all makes sence to me
The boats in the shop now
Planning a trip to the reef this weekend 200 plus km so should get a feel on how
its performing
Thanks Graham