Dodgy radio etiquette

[PADDLES]

went for a quick burn across to the top of moreton this morning, being a beautiful morning there were plenty of boats around. one thing i noticed though was how so many people incorrectly use their radio (vhf) to log in and how they make it so frikkin difficult for the poor guys at the vmr or coast guard and consequently tie them up for longer than is necessary.

there were heaps of people who just did the old information dump, "vmr bribie this is XXX, we have 2pob, our mobile number is XXX, destination XXX, time of return to XXX is XXX" without even giving the poor guy/gal at vmr a chance to respond or even get the info down correctly and then he/she has to tie up their valuable time going through the details afterwards.

i guess this is a bit of a winge, but it's also a bit of a thanks to you guys who volunteer in the radio towers and have to put up with some fairly ordinary usage of the radio.

[Fatenhappy]

Hey Paddles ...

Endorsing what your saying, probably find although the particpants intentions are good as far as safety goes, they probably haven't bothered to do the VHF course that teaches them this and all the rest of the even more important stuff perhaps.

[bigjimg]

Totally agree with what your saying.In the 9yrs I have had my licence, MROCP,I have never had to produce it,makes you wonder why you have it sometimes.IMO it should be part of the safety check the water police perform on vessels.Jim

[TheRealAndy]

Whilst I agree, i would rather people log in than not. I have also heard plenty of licenced people who log in the same way.

Dont use channel 16 unless you dont know you local VMR/CG working channel. My local VMR uses 67, and that is what I use to log in with.

And as paddles suggests, just remember that your friendly radio operator could be taking a call on HF, 27MHz or another VHF channel, so register your call first so they at least have a chance to answer before you provide details.

[trueblue]

when you call in, remember to be helpful and state what channel you are calling on.

eg

VMR Bribie, VMR Bribie, this is Bribie mobile XXX calling on channel 73, over

its just helpful for the poor bugger in the VMR or Coast guard radio room looking at 6 to 10 or more radios all tuned to different frequencies thinking, what frikkin channel did that bloke just call in on...

cheers

Mick

[spearking]

I'd have to say I'm one of the people who have been logging in and goin bla bla bla .... only because I've heard others do it thinking this was the way it was done and am using 27 mHz not VHF and therefore haven't done the course, I'll be changing my ways on that though after this post....

calling your channel and taking time to give VMR your details are handy suggestions........... can you guys or anyone else provide more details on the correct protocol on logging in and maybe anything else those of us who are more inexperienced should or shouldn't be doing

cheers c

[PADDLES]

g'day spear king, like trueblue has said above, state who you want (bribie vmr, bribie vmr) at least a couple of times, then who you are (this is spear king, spear king) at least a couple of times, then what channel you are using (on 73), say "over" when your transmission is finished and then wait for vmr/avcg to respond. this makes it easier for them to respond to you on the right channel (they monitor a few channels) when they are ready, and also get your information quickly and log you on. they'll prompt you for the info they need ie. pob#, departure point, destination, eta at destination, etr. it'll just let em help us quicker.

[trueblue]

I'd have to say I'm one of the people who have been logging in and goin bla bla bla .... only because I've heard others do it thinking this was the way it was done and am using 27 mHz not VHF and therefore haven't done the course, I'll be changing my ways on that though after this post....

calling your channel and taking time to give VMR your details are handy suggestions........... can you guys or anyone else provide more details on the correct protocol on logging in and maybe anything else those of us who are more inexperienced should or shouldn't be doing

cheers c

G'day

A typical call might go something like this

(Note: its acceptable to only call the station you are calling twice and identify yourself once on a VHF with clear reception - but call out both names 3 times if there is reception difficulty of if it is in an emergency. If you are on 27 Meg, also repeat each name 3 times because reception is scratchy at times)

You: "VMR Bribie, VMR Bribie, this is Bribie mobile XYZ on channel 73"
VMR Bribie: "Bribie Mobile XYZ, go ahead"
You: "Good morning VMR Bribie, can you put us on the trip log please"
VMR Bribie: "No problems, give us your details (they may or may not ask up front for the required list of information"
You: "Thanks, we are departing spinnaker sound marina now, bound for hutchinsons reef. We have 5 POB, and we expect to return no later than 16:00 this afternoon"
VMR Bribie: <pause while writing all that down> "Thanks mobile XYZ, we have you on the log, have a good day. VMR Bribie Clear.
You: "Thanks very much, Bribie mobile XYZ Out."

On your return back in harbour:

You: "VMR Bribie, VMR Bribie, this is Bribie Mobile XYZ on channel 73"
VMR Bribie: "Bribie Mobile XYZ, go ahead"
You: "Good afternoon VMR Bribie, we are now entering into spinnaker sound marina, can you take us off the log please?"
VMR Bribie: "Thanks for that Mobile XYZ, we have you off the log. VMR Bribie clear"
You: "Thanks for your watch, Bribie Mobile XYZ out"

Above is not absolutely by the book but close enough for practical purposes and you will be considered to have been courteous, informative and appreciative by the radio operator who takes your call.

Just remember to 'speak' with the radio operator - ultimately you are just having a conversation with him. Do your calls like this initially and get comfortable having a formalised conversation with the radio operator and you'll be fine.

Also go and do your MROCP training (can be done through Coast Guard Redcliffe) and then once you have done that course you can decide how much closer you want to get to doing it absolutely by the book.

A few other things: if you don't have a mobile number (from joining up the associate membership), you will get asked for more information, like: Boat type, registration and possibly a mobile phone number. If you use a call sign, like "Spearking", the radio operator may come back after your first call with "Vessel calling VMR Bribie, please repeat your call sign" if they cannot clearly understand you. If after the second time they still don't understand you, be prepared to spell it phonetically "sierra pappa echo alpha romeo kilo india november golf", but to avoid that for bugger all per year and have lots of other benefits, just join up as an associate member with either VMR or Coast Guard. Having a mobile number means that all of your vessel and personal details are already on file in the radio room, and all they need is your membership mobile number.

I recommend sticking a label inside your boat with your boat registration number - nothing worse than getting asked and having to lean over the side to read it upside down and then get back on the radio.

cheers

Mick

[Coontakinta]

In the 9yrs I have had my licence, MROCP,I have never had to produce it,makes you wonder why you have it sometimes.IMO it should be part of the safety check the water police perform on vessels.Jim


Yep same thing here.

I'm in SA and recently underwent a safety check upon returning to my ramp. I have both 27mhz and vhf, so one would think that the two aerials would be a bit of a give away. Was asked to produce bucket, jackets, advised that rego sticker was in wrong place, but never asked to produce my MRCOP. What the ?????

I guess if I had been checked offshore where the VHF is a requirement by law here it may have been a different story, but just surprised that I wasnt asked for it regardless and explains to me why so many wouldnt bother with doing the course.

Personally, I like the VHF and use it primarily regardless of distance as its clear and there's much less BS as there usually is on the 27meg, but with more and more packages coming out with VHF as standard, I'm sure that is all about to change and there should be more policing of the units / users as a result.

[mik01]

I'd have to say I'm one of the people who have been logging in and goin bla bla bla .... only because I've heard others do it thinking this was the way it was done and am using 27 mHz not VHF and therefore haven't done the course, I'll be changing my ways on that though after this post....

calling your channel and taking time to give VMR your details are handy suggestions........... can you guys or anyone else provide more details on the correct protocol on logging in and maybe anything else those of us who are more inexperienced should or shouldn't be doing

cheers c

this has come up many times before - whilst Mick is pretty accurate and all you basically need to know, do a search for Subzero's posts on radio etiquette in the Boating thread- contains detailed description of a formally correct radio procedure.
edit - read this link - http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/showthread.php?t=126636&highlight=subzero

one of the main benefits I got out of the course was the knowledge that, in an emergency situation, I could confidently make a mayday call and ensure all the correct info got through in the most efficient manner to the rescue services before I sank.

a lot of people don't even think about this - how are you going to ensure your details are accurately noted when you have a very limited time to relay your details and location etc before going down? especially when you are in a panic...

learning the correct protocol and the correct lingo might save your life one day.

also learning how to relay a mayday call - you then have someone else's life in your hands - pretty important stuff when you're under pressure.

granted, you don't have to 'professionally' log in or out everytime, but knowing the basic etiquette will make the VMR or CG job much easier when the radio's are going off at base. and I reckon its always nice to thank them for looking out for you, when logging off.

[Eagle]

When you are out on the water and talking to the Coast Guard or VMR, you must never end your call with "over and out". Using the word "out" indicates that you are immediately turning off your radio and will not be responding to any further calls addressed to you. To use the word "out" will definitely bring confusion to the Coast Guard or VMR. The word "over" is generally used only when reception is poor and the call can't be defined as ended. The carrier wave of the radio almost always indicates when the call has ended by the loud click that is transmitted.
A huge amount for the responsibility of bad protocol over the radio goes to the TV. A particularly poor example is "Sea Patrol". The dumb blonde uses "over and out" all the time. Don’t get caught out by these stupid programs.
Using the correct protocol with the (marine) radio develops enormous confidence and respect in you as a skipper by your passengers. If you don't know the correct radio procedures, join up with the Coast Guard or whoever and get your licence for VHF. If you have a radio installed in your boat, it should be turned on all the time to the appropriate channel to moniter any distress call or instructions given by the Coast Guard or VMR. Professionalism should equate to safety afloat, well it should be so.
Eagle

[trueblue]

agreed, as indicated above, 'out' end of conversation, indicating to the other party that you are not expected to speak again.

Note: You will not typically hear "out" from the VMR or Coast Guard. They will end their conversation with "Clear" or "Standing by" as they are maintaining an active radio watch.


cheers

Mick

[mik01]

When you are out on the water and talking to the Coast Guard or VMR, you must never end your call with "over and out". Using the word "out" indicates that you are immediately turning off your radio and will not be responding to any further calls addressed to you. To use the word "out" will definitely bring confusion to the Coast Guard or VMR. The word "over" is generally used only when reception is poor and the call can't be defined as ended. The carrier wave of the radio almost always indicates when the call has ended by the loud click that is transmitted.
A huge amount for the responsibility of bad protocol over the radio goes to the TV. A particularly poor example is "Sea Patrol". The dumb blonde uses "over and out" all the time. Don’t get caught out by these stupid programs.
Using the correct protocol with the (marine) radio develops enormous confidence and respect in you as a skipper by your passengers. If you don't know the correct radio procedures, join up with the Coast Guard or whoever and get your licence for VHF. If you have a radio installed in your boat, it should be turned on all the time to the appropriate channel to moniter any distress call or instructions given by the Coast Guard or VMR. Professionalism should equate to safety afloat, well it should be so.
Eagle

agree.

I never actually respond after the VMR says 'standing by' - to me, that indicates they are satisfied the call is over and no response is necessary.

and never say 'roger'!!!!!
its 'romeo' ::)

[Jeremy]

G'day

A typical call might go something like this

(Note: its acceptable to only call the station you are calling twice and identify yourself once on a VHF with clear reception - but call out both names 3 times if there is reception difficulty of if it is in an emergency. If you are on 27 Meg, also repeat each name 3 times because reception is scratchy at times)

You: "VMR Bribie, VMR Bribie, this is Bribie mobile XYZ on channel 73"
VMR Bribie: "Bribie Mobile XYZ, go ahead"
You: "Good morning VMR Bribie, can you put us on the trip log please"
VMR Bribie: "No problems, give us your details (they may or may not ask up front for the required list of information"
You: "Thanks, we are departing spinnaker sound marina now, bound for hutchinsons reef. We have 5 POB, and we expect to return no later than 16:00 this afternoon"
VMR Bribie: <pause while writing all that down> "Thanks mobile XYZ, we have you on the log, have a good day. VMR Bribie Clear.
You: "Thanks very much, Bribie mobile XYZ Out."

On your return back in harbour:

You: "VMR Bribie, VMR Bribie, this is Bribie Mobile XYZ on channel 73"
VMR Bribie: "Bribie Mobile XYZ, go ahead"
You: "Good afternoon VMR Bribie, we are now entering into spinnaker sound marina, can you take us off the log please?"
VMR Bribie: "Thanks for that Mobile XYZ, we have you off the log. VMR Bribie clear"
You: "Thanks for your watch, Bribie Mobile XYZ out"

Above is not absolutely by the book but close enough for practical purposes and you will be considered to have been courteous, informative and appreciative by the radio operator who takes your call.

Just remember to 'speak' with the radio operator - ultimately you are just having a conversation with him. Do your calls like this initially and get comfortable having a formalised conversation with the radio operator and you'll be fine.

Also go and do your MROCP training (can be done through Coast Guard Redcliffe) and then once you have done that course you can decide how much closer you want to get to doing it absolutely by the book.

A few other things: if you don't have a mobile number (from joining up the associate membership), you will get asked for more information, like: Boat type, registration and possibly a mobile phone number. If you use a call sign, like "Spearking", the radio operator may come back after your first call with "Vessel calling VMR Bribie, please repeat your call sign" if they cannot clearly understand you. If after the second time they still don't understand you, be prepared to spell it phonetically "sierra pappa echo alpha romeo kilo india november golf", but to avoid that for bugger all per year and have lots of other benefits, just join up as an associate member with either VMR or Coast Guard. Having a mobile number means that all of your vessel and personal details are already on file in the radio room, and all they need is your membership mobile number.

I recommend sticking a label inside your boat with your boat registration number - nothing worse than getting asked and having to lean over the side to read it upside down and then get back on the radio.

cheers

Mick

IMHO, pretty close to the money but....
forgot vessel description and rego number and mobile phone number in the log details. These details can be pre-recorded for associate members for whom the keep records of such details.

Also, 'out' is how you end a call. It does not mean you are turning your radio off. Just means you are finished talking to that station.

Jeremy

[trueblue]

mobile phone number, vessel description and rego number are not required if you are calling in on a call sign that is your home base mobile number from your associate membership. check second last paragraph...

[Dave_H]

When you are out on the water and talking to the Coast Guard or VMR, you must never end your call with "over and out". Using the word "out" indicates that you are immediately turning off your radio and will not be responding to any further calls addressed to you. To use the word "out" will definitely bring confusion to the Coast Guard or VMR. The word "over" is generally used only when reception is poor and the call can't be defined as ended. The carrier wave of the radio almost always indicates when the call has ended by the loud click that is transmitted.
A huge amount for the responsibility of bad protocol over the radio goes to the TV. A particularly poor example is "Sea Patrol". The dumb blonde uses "over and out" all the time. Don’t get caught out by these stupid programs.
Using the correct protocol with the (marine) radio develops enormous confidence and respect in you as a skipper by your passengers. If you don't know the correct radio procedures, join up with the Coast Guard or whoever and get your licence for VHF. If you have a radio installed in your boat, it should be turned on all the time to the appropriate channel to moniter any distress call or instructions given by the Coast Guard or VMR. Professionalism should equate to safety afloat, well it should be so.
Eagle

I'm sorry Eagle parts of your post are quite incorrect.

I would suggest that you may (and everyone else who may well feel a little rusty on R/T phrasiology and the latest trends/news in so far as the regulator is concerned...) want to have another read of the relevant procedures for Marine Radiotelephone at http://www.amc.edu.au/system/files/amc.omc_.mrohb_.08.pdf

Eagle I would draw your attention to the pages 78 and onwards. The expression "Over" has ALWAYS been used to signify that the speaker has finished transmitting and is expecting a reply.

Similarly "Out" (used by itself) refers to the speaker finishing his/her transmission and not expecting a reply.

"Roger" is an acceptable modern substitute for "Romeo" (or "yes, I understand" - this harks back to the Naval use of flags for visual communication between vessels many years ago during times of radio silence. The use of the word Roger has becom more commonplace since the mid '90's.

Tight Lines,

Dave.

[QF3 MROCP]

G'day

A typical call might go something like this

(Note: its acceptable to only call the station you are calling twice and identify yourself once on a VHF with clear reception - but call out both names 3 times if there is reception difficulty of if it is in an emergency. If you are on 27 Meg, also repeat each name 3 times because reception is scratchy at times)

You: "VMR Bribie, VMR Bribie, this is Bribie mobile XYZ on channel 73"
VMR Bribie: "Bribie Mobile XYZ, go ahead"
You: "Good morning VMR Bribie, can you put us on the trip log please"
VMR Bribie: "No problems, give us your details (they may or may not ask up front for the required list of information"
You: "Thanks, we are departing spinnaker sound marina now, bound for hutchinsons reef. We have 5 POB, and we expect to return no later than 16:00 this afternoon"
VMR Bribie: <pause while writing all that down> "Thanks mobile XYZ, we have you on the log, have a good day. VMR Bribie Clear.
You: "Thanks very much, Bribie mobile XYZ Out."

On your return back in harbour:

You: "VMR Bribie, VMR Bribie, this is Bribie Mobile XYZ on channel 73"
VMR Bribie: "Bribie Mobile XYZ, go ahead"
You: "Good afternoon VMR Bribie, we are now entering into spinnaker sound marina, can you take us off the log please?"
VMR Bribie: "Thanks for that Mobile XYZ, we have you off the log. VMR Bribie clear"
You: "Thanks for your watch, Bribie Mobile XYZ out"

Above is not absolutely by the book but close enough for practical purposes and you will be considered to have been courteous, informative and appreciative by the radio operator who takes your call.

Just remember to 'speak' with the radio operator - ultimately you are just having a conversation with him. Do your calls like this initially and get comfortable having a formalised conversation with the radio operator and you'll be fine.

Also go and do your MROCP training (can be done through Coast Guard Redcliffe) and then once you have done that course you can decide how much closer you want to get to doing it absolutely by the book.

A few other things: if you don't have a mobile number (from joining up the associate membership), you will get asked for more information, like: Boat type, registration and possibly a mobile phone number. If you use a call sign, like "Spearking", the radio operator may come back after your first call with "Vessel calling VMR Bribie, please repeat your call sign" if they cannot clearly understand you. If after the second time they still don't understand you, be prepared to spell it phonetically "sierra pappa echo alpha romeo kilo india november golf", but to avoid that for bugger all per year and have lots of other benefits, just join up as an associate member with either VMR or Coast Guard. Having a mobile number means that all of your vessel and personal details are already on file in the radio room, and all they need is your membership mobile number.

I recommend sticking a label inside your boat with your boat registration number - nothing worse than getting asked and having to lean over the side to read it upside down and then get back on the radio.

cheers

Mick

Thanks Mick for the referal for our MROCVP training course - next one is on Feb 22nd.

Trueblue - send me a PM with phone number and I'll talk you through it if you want. One other thing to add the the end of each transmission is the word "over". That makes it clear you have finished the transmission and are waiting for a reply from the base sation or other vessel your calling.

As Mick has stated - finish the final transmission with OUT - then we all know you have returned to monitoring channel 16 and have left the airwaves.

Peter

Peter

[mik01]

I'm sorry Eagle parts of your post are quite incorrect.

I would suggest that you may (and everyone else who may well feel a little rusty on R/T phrasiology and the latest trends/news in so far as the regulator is concerned...) want to have another read of the relevant procedures for Marine Radiotelephone at http://www.amc.edu.au/system/files/amc.omc_.mrohb_.08.pdf

Eagle I would draw your attention to the pages 78 and onwards. The expression "Over" has ALWAYS been used to signify that the speaker has finished transmitting and is expecting a reply.

Similarly "Out" (used by itself) refers to the speaker finishing his/her transmission and not expecting a reply.

"Roger" is an acceptable modern substitute for "Romeo" (or "yes, I understand" - this harks back to the Naval use of flags for visual communication between vessels many years ago during times of radio silence. The use of the word Roger has becom more commonplace since the mid '90's.

Tight Lines,

Dave.

Dave - you're probably right that 'roger' is an acceptable 'modern' substitute, however its still slang and not the Australian radio term for 'yes'. why would you need to substitute the correct term 'romeo' for anything? I can only imagine its laziness & thanks to American influences (ie bad movies!).

you could say 'yes' or 'affirmative' or 'positive' - all of which could be argued are 'acceptable modern substitutes' - however 'romeo' is the correct term and always will be. the point of having a 'standard' is that all marine radio operators are to use the same terminology, thereby reducing confusion over the airwaves.
otherwise we come up with different phonetic alphabets and everyone gets confused.

not having a chip at you - but if we want to maintain a protocol and ensure we have clear understanding over radio then we at least need to try to maintain the correct terminology and procedures.

regardless of the fine points - the main thing is that we try to maintain the correct procedures and eliminate confusion - as I mentioned above, your life may depend on someone understanding you first time...

[webby]

I was in communications in the RAAF back in the 70-80's and we used the work Roger then and not the phonetic R-Romeo
The word Out, means you are or have finishing your transmission (conversations) and will be listening out on the monitored frequency.
You can use Roger Out, if acknowledging a reply, and you have nothing further to say.
The Phonetic Alphabet is quite easy to learn
A ALPHA-------- O OSCAR
B BRAVO-------- P PAPA
C CHARLIE------ Q QUEBEC
D DELTA -------- R ROMEO
E ECHO ----------S SIERRA
F FOXTROT------- T TANGO
G GOLF------------U UNIFORM
H HOTEL--------- V VICTOR
I INDIA------------ W WHISKEY
J JULIET -----------X XRAY
K KILO ------------ Y YANKEE

L LIMA............... Z ZULU
M MIKE
N NOVEMBER

cAN ALSO GIVE ALL THE MORSE CODE FOR THE ABOVE;D

regards

[tigermullet]

I wasn't going to buy into this discussion but the acknowledgment 'Roger' is not slang and has been used in Australia for...well, just about forever. We were using it in 1961 (it was common then and probably had been for years before that) and it's use continued right up until I quit those occupations in 1998.

How the acknowledgment 'Romeo' crept in is anyone's guess. Perhaps it arose as a misunderstanding from a transcript where the abbreviation 'R' was used and some inexperienced person interpreted as standing for 'Romeo'; or it might have come from an American movie where the phrase used was, "That's a big Romeo, Smokey Bear". I cringe every time I hear it spoken as 'Romeo' because it's just so unprofessional.

And, just to be super annoying, the word 'affirmative' is no longer used - the correct term being 'affirm'. I know exactly how the word 'affirm' came into use - the history is well known to me but not worth bothering with anymore.

That's it from me. Roger, Wilco, Over and Out.;D

[mik01]

I wasn't going to buy into this discussion but the acknowledgment 'Roger' is not slang and has been used in Australia for...well, just about forever. We were using it in 1961 (it was common then and probably had been for years before that) and it's use continued right up until I quit those occupations in 1998.

How the acknowledgment 'Romeo' crept in is anyone's guess. Perhaps it arose as a misunderstanding from a transcript where the abbreviation 'R' was used and some inexperienced person interpreted as standing for 'Romeo'; or it might have come from an American movie where the phrase used was, "That's a big Romeo, Smokey Bear". I cringe every time I hear it spoken as 'Romeo' because it's just so unprofessional.

And, just to be super annoying, the word 'affirmative' is no longer used - the correct term being 'affirm'. I know exactly how the word 'affirm' came into use - the history is well known to me but not worth bothering with anymore.

That's it from me. Roger, Wilco, Over and Out.;D

why is 'romeo' taught on the MROCP license if its not the correct term?

[tigermullet]

Why is it taught? I have no idea but probably speaks to the level of professionalism involved.

I guess that it does not matter when you get right down to it. The use of 'Romeo' just sounds dorky even though the message might still be understood.

Webby is right in the alphabet, the use of 'Roger" etc., - it is definitely not some type of slang. Webby must have been a Teleg or Sigs Op too.

[FNQCairns]

This is an interesting topic, I have simply no hope of saying anything else but Roger, it's all I ever used for so many years in private use, I too simply cannot say romeo as it smacks a little and besides I doubt I can think fast enough in real time to replace Roger as I do not hold much of the obsessive compulsive needed to make it worth my while.

Still if there is a very good reason.....

Need to do some net searches to work out this riddle, what do the top gun flyboys use or even commercial pilots??

cheers fnq

[trueblue]

Need to do some net searches to work out this riddle, what do the top gun flyboys use or even commercial pilots??

cheers fnq

don't go there...... don't mix up air band radio procedures with Marine... they are quite different.

What is taught in the MROCP courses is what is set out by the controlling body to be the curriculum, to standardise everything.

with any standardisation, someone always loses out because what was right before becomes no longer right.

cheers

Mick

[mik01]

This is an interesting topic, I have simply no hope of saying anything else but Roger, it's all I ever used for so many years in private use, I too simply cannot say romeo as it smacks a little and besides I doubt I can think fast enough in real time to replace Roger as I do not hold much of the obsessive compulsive needed to make it worth my while.

Still if there is a very good reason.....

Need to do some net searches to work out this riddle, what do the top gun flyboys use or even commercial pilots??

cheers fnq


interesting for me too - did a google search and found this forum -
http://www.techrescue.org/smforum/index.php?topic=13753.msg19708

there are 2 pages, so click 'next' at the bottom.

I'm happy to be corrected if wrong, however was taught 'romeo' not 'roger'.

see also this page -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procedure_word#ROGER.2C_ROMEO

looks like they are interchangeable and 'romeo' is typically meant to be used in Australian maritime operations rather than 'roger'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger

edit - it appears that 'roger' is mainly to be used by flyboys etc - maritime seems to have adopted 'romeo' per the phonetic alphabet for 'R' or 'Received'.

I don't think that it means 'unprofessional' to be taught 'romeo' when there was a clear directive to use it after WW2. anyway, make up your own mind and use whatever you prefer!

[webby]

Ah Tigermullet, your correct mate was a Teleg from 68-80, ended up in 3Telu for the last 2 years where they tried to convert me to a sigsop, but wouldnt agree so left the RAAF in 80
regards

[FNQCairns]

interesting for me too - did a google search and found this forum -
http://www.techrescue.org/smforum/index.php?topic=13753.msg19708

there are 2 pages, so click 'next' at the bottom.

I'm happy to be corrected if wrong, however was taught 'romeo' not 'roger'.

see also this page -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procedure_word#ROGER.2C_ROMEO

looks like they are interchangeable and 'romeo' is typically meant to be used in Australian maritime operations rather than 'roger'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger

edit - it appears that 'roger' is mainly to be used by flyboys etc - maritime seems to have adopted 'romeo' per the phonetic alphabet for 'R' or 'Received'.

I don't think that it means 'unprofessional' to be taught 'romeo' when there was a clear directive to use it after WW2. anyway, make up your own mind and use whatever you prefer!

Here is another one, seems it all has to do with a new world order and all that, without being certain it seems we had no option but to use Romeo for future budding acceptance somewhere in something later etc and therefore it is 'now' correct and roger incorrect, I am far from reverent toward the depth of ink on paper so I will use roger until I adapt to romeo...if I hear it enough it will happen but I don't hear it much when on the water.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Army/Navy_Phonetic_Alphabet

cheers fnq

[tigermullet]

Ah Tigermullet, your correct mate was a Teleg from 68-80, ended up in 3Telu for the last 2 years where they tried to convert me to a sigsop, but wouldnt agree so left the RAAF in 80
regards

Well, well, There aren't many of us left. I was there (3Telu) from 1963 to 1967 and left to try civilian life.

With hindsight it could have been better to go to DSD or Foreign Affairs after the RAAF but wives do have a great influence. Coming home to Queensland was a bit of a blow but things turned out well enough.

Regards.

[Sea-Dog]

Hey Webby, have you got something against Americans ?

You left Yankee out of your phonetic alphabet.

[Dave_H]

I wasn't going to buy into this discussion but the acknowledgment 'Roger' is not slang and has been used in Australia for...well, just about forever. We were using it in 1961 (it was common then and probably had been for years before that) and it's use continued right up until I quit those occupations in 1998.

How the acknowledgment 'Romeo' crept in is anyone's guess. Perhaps it arose as a misunderstanding from a transcript where the abbreviation 'R' was used and some inexperienced person interpreted as standing for 'Romeo'; or it might have come from an American movie where the phrase used was, "That's a big Romeo, Smokey Bear". I cringe every time I hear it spoken as 'Romeo' because it's just so unprofessional.

And, just to be super annoying, the word 'affirmative' is no longer used - the correct term being 'affirm'. I know exactly how the word 'affirm' came into use - the history is well known to me but not worth bothering with anymore.

That's it from me. Roger, Wilco, Over and Out.;D

Mick, love your work - absolutely spot on! The word "roger has no basis in MARINE radio however is creeping in from other influences such as UHF CB and 27meg CB (not to be confused with Marine 27meg).

Please don't dispair guys and girls, it is very simple, yet no-one will hang you for not using the absolute correct wording. FNQ you keep using whatever word you like for it...

We obviously have a couple of army sig types here, onya guys, love your work too tigermullet, however be advised that the origins of the word Romeo being used (instead of Roger) to convey the word for an affirmative response has its origins in Naval Flag etiquete [spl] - ie the R flag when hoisted aloft means to convey an affirmative response to a question. That is why it is a Marine Standard to use the word Romeo to convey an affirmative response. What you in the Army used worked for you (Eastings/Northings for mapping/calling in airstrikes etc) but bears no resemblance to what happens in the outside word - ie Deg Lat and Long for example.

Again, please refer to the ACMA publication I linked to.

FNQ, I have had an interesting time adapting - you see at one time or another I have been involved in or employed in: The Army/Army Reserve - 2TG (4.5 years), AVCGA (9 years, 11 months, 29 days - on purpose... - NF3, NF1,NF3 again), have a NSW Maritime Coxswain cert (RPL'd across from Coast Guard) and, funnily enough have been a commercial/airline pilot since 2000 (working for a Canberra Based airline for the last few years).

You might say I've seen a few different types of R/T over the past 25 years of my working life.... The big thing is to remember - there is no right or wrong - just get that message out but for gawd sake don't waffle!

Keep the great discussion going this is how people learn!

Hope everyone has a great New Years!

Tight Lines.

Dave

[Eagle]

Dave H
I will concede that the use of the word "Out" as you have stated is correct. However, I was taught my radio procedure by ............ Coast Guard and I will endevour to stay with what they taught me. I do have my MROCP and I use the appropriate language as needed. The ..........Coast Guard have great respect for me and the manner in which I operate. If anyone wants to get picky, then let me ask, how many of you keep a log of all radio calls both received and transmitted by your boat. Also, how many boat operators having a MROCP keep a copy of the MROH on board their boat? Keep it simple, dont argue over minor points but follow common sense. The worst dialogue to hear on the radio (on any channel) is the filthy foul language that so many boaties insist on using. When such language is broadcast the ........... Coast Guard comes down heavily on such people.
Keep it clean and simple.
May you all enjoy a truly wonderful and happy new year.

Eagle

[Jeremy]

When you are out on the water and talking to the Coast Guard or VMR, you must never end your call with "over and out". Using the word "out" indicates that you are immediately turning off your radio and will not be responding to any further calls addressed to you. To use the word "out" will definitely bring confusion to the Coast Guard or VMR. The word "over" is generally used only when reception is poor and the call can't be defined as ended. The carrier wave of the radio almost always indicates when the call has ended by the loud click that is transmitted.
A huge amount for the responsibility of bad protocol over the radio goes to the TV. A particularly poor example is "Sea Patrol". The dumb blonde uses "over and out" all the time. Don’t get caught out by these stupid programs.
Using the correct protocol with the (marine) radio develops enormous confidence and respect in you as a skipper by your passengers. If you don't know the correct radio procedures, join up with the Coast Guard or whoever and get your licence for VHF. If you have a radio installed in your boat, it should be turned on all the time to the appropriate channel to moniter any distress call or instructions given by the Coast Guard or VMR. Professionalism should equate to safety afloat, well it should be so.
Eagle

You concede you were wrong do you? I reckon you have egg all over your face. Are you blonde by any chance?

Jeremy

[Jeremy]

Coast Guard comes down heavily on such people.
Eagle
Really? Got any evidence of this? I have never heard of any action being taken by any organization, police, CG, VMR etc against any marine radion user whether for lack of use certificate or foul language. The only way to identify someone would be if they gave an associate member number. I would love to hear of any cases.

Jeremy

[TheRealAndy]

My limited understanding of this mater is that it is the letter that is important. The three things that come to mind a R, DE and CQ. R = Aknowledgement, DE = Announcing your stations and CQ = broadcast to all stations. Translated into the current intenationally adopted phonetic alphabet that would be Romeo, Delta Echo and Charlie Quebec. I was tough this doing other radio certifications so it may not apply to marine.

Now if you are a brit using your old phonetic alphabet, you would be familiar with robert instead of romeo, and if you were a yank on your old phonetic alphabet then it would be roger, not romeo.

Oh, and by the way I beleive all of this comes from the old morse code days. R, CQ, DE, DX etc.

[TheRealAndy]

Here is the list :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morse_Code_Abbreviations

Head down to R = recieved. I knew I had heard it somewhere before!

[oldboot]

As has been mentioned by others there are different radio protocols on different radio systems and there are all sorts of variations.......there are good reasons for the way the marine protocol is set up, so we should stick to it.

One example is that we speak the called station first because there many stations that could be called. and under different call signs and licences.
In many other systems we speak our own station first because it is assumed that there are few basses controlling the traffic and many mobiles


As for the reason for Romeo......it is a very distict sound having three strong vowel sounds and is hard to mistake for other words.

Both Robert and Rodger have problems as there are many words that ryme and the vowel sounds are not strong vowel sounds........when inteligibility sufferes it is the consinents that are degraded first and the strong vowel sounds last.

it might be trivia to some, but it is the reason why Rodger and Robert are dead... long live Romeo.

As for the two letter acronyms....I think the only one recomended for use in marine circles is DE....... but most people use "this is".

I think there is a concerted effort to encourage the use of plain english on the marine bands these days instead of abreviations and acronyms.

I hear many of the VMR bases using "Romeo", but quite a few people simply say "Recieved".

The word "out" realy should have little use in marine radio as it is assumed that a continuous radio watch is kept on all commercial shipping unless tied up and uncrewed.....indeed it can be argued that any vessel with radio fitted should be keeping a radio watch when at sea.

So it is probably more correct to say " ceasing radio watch" or "logging off".

Even if you only run 27Mhz it is well worth doing the 1 day radio course, you will learn stuff you want to know.

cheers

[Bros]

Another version I have heard "Back"

[subzero]

As I understand it, it is the Internationally agreed phonetic alphabet. (Otherwise known as the Nato Phonetic Alpabet).

Marine Radio is not bound by geographical boundarys and a comon understanding needs to be found where even non english speaking persons can understand other poeople from different nationalities and comunicate the most basic but critical of information via phonetic alphabet with poor comunications etc.

Yes for sure Roger will normally be very easily recognised by people of my age group from having watched many movies over many years.
However, will kids leaving school, I dont know? It needs to be standardised, it should be standardised. Would I ever criticise some one in the real world for using the wrong terminology...... not in reality.... unless it was a mate of mine and I would give him hell for fun :-)

I have seen NZ and RNLI MROCP type handbooks and they say Romeo. If you sit a radio license and answer the questions the way you feel like and not the way you are taught, expect that the risks are greater not to pass your certificate.

At the end of the day, the most important thing is that in your time of need you can get your message out quickly and understood.... little else matters but correct proceedures and protocols will go a LONG WAY to improve your chances of survival in a bad situation.

"Romeo that from me"

Cheers Lloyd

OUT

[oldboot]

The use of the work "back" is a lazy abreviation of the CB radio term "back to you".........as can be expected radio protocol on CB radio is very sloppy or non existent.....that is fine on CB radio because it is not a "life critical" communication system.

The important thing to understand about marine radio is that it IS a LIFE CRITICAL means of communication and not an ammusement or pass time..... there are some users who fail to understand this.

The rules and protocols for marine radio are the same for the recreational user, the large commercial user and for emergency servicies.

The marine radio operators hand book expresse itsself very clearly in one sentence.

"In the interests of accuracy, brevity and clarity it is sound practice for operators to use the standard vocabulary when possible."

Slack, sloppy or ignorant radio protocal may cause difficulty with important life saving communication and may cost a life.

The protocols and specific words recommended are there for very good reasons, we should all learn them and use them. Use of non marine radio terms and language is nothing more than a display of ignorance.

Remember on the same channel you are using there are professional mariners in craft of all sizes and types.

A good example I heard recently was an exchange between an incomming bulk freighter and an outgoing pleasure craft in the brisbane leads.
the freighter master called up the outgoing sail craft to clarify passing arrangemnents in the channel.
All exchanges were according to protocol, decently and properly done.
The master was making sure the sail craft was aware of the situatuin and that they would pass port to port.

We sould be able to communicate with any vessel, be understood and respected.

As for the enforcement of radio licencing, it is not the role of the police, boating and fisheries patroll of any of the rescue organisations.
Enforcement of radio frequency matters is a commonwealth responsibility.


cheers

[webby]

Well i've been using Roger for the last 30 years, and its quite distinct it what its supposed to mean, so i cannot see me changing.
Roger is precise and not misunderstood.
The same with the word Out, it again is precise and tells the operator on the other end that you have finished your transmission.
Wether you list out on the allocated frequencies or not is your choice.
The abbreviation DE, (this is) is only used when writing in a log vmr de xxxx
or used in the transmission of morse code.
Wether using Roger or Romeo is your choice, it or both are still telling the operator on the other end you have acknowledged his call or message.
The words (logging off) should only be use when either back at the ramp, or anchored for the night and not intending to move till you log back on.
regards

[Jeremy]

The word "out" realy should have little use in marine radio as it is assumed that a continuous radio watch is kept on all commercial shipping unless tied up and uncrewed.....indeed it can be argued that any vessel with radio fitted should be keeping a radio watch when at sea.

So it is probably more correct to say " ceasing radio watch" or "logging off".


"ceasing radio watch" or "logging off" do not cover ending a conversation. "out" is used to end a conversation, whereas "over" is used to end a sentence where you are expecting a reply.

Is there some word other than "out" that you propose covers the ending of a conversation between two stations?

Jeremy

[tigermullet]

I am now totally confused and might have the wrong impression but surely these short radio courses are not teaching students to say 'Delta Echo' in lieu of, 'This is'.

And why is there so much confusion about 'Out'?

Where did 'Robert' come from? I have never heard of R = Robert. The Yanks, Poms and Australian forces (army, navy and air forces) nor merchant marine have ever used it as far as I know.

I cannot think of any service that has used it and have monitored a lot of domestic and foreign circuits.

Aviation services governed by ICAO have never used Robert.

I'd be interested to know if it has been used somewhere just for historical curiosity.

[oldboot]

There seems to be a greater empasis on complete phrases and being properly understood on the marine bands rather than the use of abreviations and codes.

I think they (whoever they are) have tried to keep it simple. There is no "Q" code, 10 code, 100 code or extensive list of abreviations like there are on other systems.

We realy should be able to hear what is going on and if the exchange is complete by what is said.

The use of "over" is important because it tells the other party that you are ready for them to reply.

the use of "OUT" has a specific meaning......."I am ceasing transmission on this frequency"

There is an example of the proper use on page 11 and 12 of the VHF manual.

If you are using another channel and returning to the calling channel it is appropriate to use "out".

But you would make sure you were understood by saying "returning to channel 16 and standing by your name OUT"

As I mentioned before there is an asumption that you are keeping a radio watch so the appropriate term is " standing by".

As I mentioned before " ceasing radio watch" or "logging off" means precisely that......you are turning off the radio or going home.

But again there is more of an expectation of placing "whatever in context".

VMR wherever, this is your name returned to the ramp mark me as returned please, over.

Your name this is VMR wherever you are listed as returned over.

VMR this is your name logging off. or ceasing radio watch or just thankyou.

what is important is the context.

On the marine bands we seem to have plenty of time to be understood, we use both call signs on every transmission..... many other radio systems don't.
On the marine bands there is an empasis on complete phrases.... many radio systems use as few words and as many abreviations and possible.

So the meanings and use of words such as rodger and out are far less important than the rest of the procedure.

I don't think we will encounter DE much and no the radio course I went to did not encourage its use........The comment was that DE or delta echo may be used by overseas shipping..........problay by crusty old types that still have twitchy fingers from punching it out in morse.

cheers

[kokomo]

do your radio licence its the law

[FNQCairns]

do your radio licence its the law

Do your drivers licence it's the Law......illegal...is speeding or throwing an illegal U turn or j walking or.....

cheers fnq

[tigermullet]

Thanks to Oldboot's explanations I now have a much clearer idea of where he is coming from.