50hp outboard motor flipped upsidedown into boat

[tim barra master]

I hit an underwater drifting log my hydraulics blew apart and my outboard flipped completely over and smashed upsidedown into my boat
outboard a writeoff
tiller arm snapped off
cowl smashed
under cowl items bent broken
hydraulics in at least three pieces
boat badly damaged
and left with no easy access to the key and lanyard
mind you this outboard is at full revs with the tiller and all its controlls smashed off and crushed under the outboard on the deck of the boat
What happened next is when the boat came to rest the outboard fell backwards into the water and at full revs we took of again this time i still had no controll as the tiller was broken off and we went a cosiderable way before i could shut it down as the tiller with its throttle gearshift and key and lanyard was sheered off
also injury occured when the tiller arm was forced into the floor of the boat
my boat had a max speed of 40kph i recon i was 30kph at impact

I am very concerned as if i had a passenger sitting centre at the rear of my boat death would have been the outcome 100+ kilo 4 stroke motor smashing down into the boat now picture the prop and foil now facing the front inside the boat and at revs
luckily i sat to the right and steer with my left hand and my two passengers were up front.
Thats probably where i will be when i convert my boat to forward controlls

My outboard had just had its first service

regarless of warranty i was told insurance was my only avenue for repair

my point is that (if the hydraulics let go and allowed the leg to rise as i was told that is wat is suposed to happen) no damage would have happened and no life threatoning occurance either

Instead what i recon happened is the hydraulics held on till the electric motor blew completely off ( never found) and as the pressure was held back till then there was so much force on the leg that when the motor blew off the leg flew up with so much force it flipped the outboard upsidedown onboard tearing the piston from the hydraulics on the way

has any one heard of an incident like this

and did the outboard manufacturer look after there customer I believe mine did not
I will not name them yet as i have an ongoing investigation happening


I have had some expensive fishing trips but this one was a doosy.

[Mindi]

Tim Very glad to hear nobody hurt in what could have been a very serious accident. I am having a bit of trouble understanding what you are describing...I thought the hydraulic rams only operate by pushing upwards and the downward/forward force is provided by the prop when running or by gravity when not running..? so by my understanding the hydraulics would never stop the motor from flying up...only the reverse lock device to enable reversing would do that..? but maybe I am misunderstanding your event. Sounds really ugly experience.

[tim barra master]

The hydrualics on my boat power up and down and at no time can you grab the leg and manually lift it
Without battery power a tool must be used to disable hydraulics so the leg can be manually lifted
If i was to get a flat battery on the water and did not have the tool it would be impossible to raise the leg I hope this paints a clearer picture.Thanks Mindy

[bluefin59]

Wow scarey stuff mate ,how old is the motor i would have thought that the motor would have died once the controls ripped of sorry to hear about this incident i hope insurance looks after you . Thank god nobody was injured ....matt

[Benny01]

how far did u have to go with no motor

[tim barra master]

Thanks Matt the outboard about 18 months old 100hours on the clock
I had some problems with my insurance co but they now read there policy like i did when i insured it and the new outboard is waiting to meet with the repaired boat

[tim barra master]

thanks Benny
i had about 1 1/2 hours travel to the ramp so some bush mechanics were used we strapped my landing net handle to the engine and two people one using the engines throttle the other steering BUT NEITHER GETTING INFRONT OF THE THING we got back slow but too far to paddle.
and there is no volentere rescue on the lakes either

Here is a great tip carry a packet of large cable ties onboard they are great.

[ozbee]

the hydraulics will only hold down to a point otherwise it would tear the back of the boat clean out . more like a snag than a drifting log . no outboard to blame just youself for operating to fast to the conditions

[Benny01]

im not sure and underwater drifting log is too fast for conditions

[tim barra master]

Thanks ozbee i supose you drive your boat at snails pace everywhere you go I was in a hundred feet of water that i have travelled a hundred times before we found out later some arsoles had been camping nearby and throwing alsorts of things into the water I just happened to find out the hard way.

[ozbee]

or plain unlucky

[Fishbait]

Ah thats some bad luck there but at least everyone is safe. Did you have to file a Marine Incident Form with MSQ as well? Hope it all turns out for you. Cheers, Darren.

[dogsbody]

Got any pics of the damage?


Dave

[Spaniard_King]

Tim,

I have read a previuos post of yours about this issue.

All hydraulic trim units have a relief valve for which is suppose to allow the engine to lift up upon striking a object when underway.

IMO you hit the underwater object with such force that you exceeded the capabilities of the relief valve, therefore the next weakest part suffered the consequences ( the electric motor lifted from is mounting). All quite feasable and should be covered by your insurance as it has been.

Personally I cant see what your beef is ozbee .

TMB thanks for sharing your experience with others.

[Blaster Bretty]

Jeeper's tim.... this must of been the "MOTHER OF ALL LOG'S" to provide such force to flip 100kg's + of motor upside down and into your boat. I myself would be struggleing to lift that weight right up + over so it sounds like you have been extremely unlucky in this situation and the object you have struck has been hit at precisely the correct angle to provide the most heaviest impact possible. At least no-one was hurt and you have improvised to get to safety. Heres me thinking I was terribly unlucky to have my cast net fly right off my arm 2 days ago and I had to watch it sink to the bottom (was retrieved after a 40min casting effort)
Hope all is well sorted on this one timmy.

Bretty

[jimbo 69]

yeah some pics would be good, glad to hear no one was hurt, who were you insured with? atleast your covered

[3rd degree]

Good to hear all are ok, sounds like it could have got really messy!

Cheers

Jim

[Kleyny]

WOW never heard of a motor doing that before.
I have had my motor (60hp)come to a shuddering/ bouncing holt on a sand bank before.:-X but thankfully no damage was done.

In my fathers boat Non hydraulic i hit something full tilt (35ks) and the motor come up with a loud scream but once again no damage done. Luckly as his boat is not insured for some crazy reason::) :-X

neil

[oldboot]

It interests me that when they put hydraulics on a motor they see fit to leave out the various safety items that would be there if it was a manual lift motor.

My motor has a big fat strap that would stop the motor lifting past a certain point....where is that strap on the motor with hydraulics.

cheers

[Spaniard_King]

Oldboot, I guess it's like most things designed these days.. you can't design for all instances.

[Lovey80]

the hydraulics will only hold down to a point otherwise it would tear the back of the boat clean out . more like a snag than a drifting log . no outboard to blame just youself for operating to fast to the conditions


Ozbee that would have to be one of the most rediculous comments i have read in a long while.

Tim, I almost exactly this whilst on somerset dam. I thought i was travelling in the same stretch of dam i had traveled many times but misjudged. My motor a 40hp did exactly what it was suppose to when i hit a submerged stump at 19 knots (est). The releif valve let the motor jump like a tiller steer and lowered strait back down. All that was damaged on the motor was a slightly bent skeg and one of the blades on the prop. The steering arm was bent beyond repair. A new steering cable was ordered and skeg and prop bent back to normal not a problem since.

IN my oppinion the motor/hydraulic trim/tilt misfunctioned

Cheers

Chris

[finga]

It interests me that when they put hydraulics on a motor they see fit to leave out the various safety items that would be there if it was a manual lift motor.

My motor has a big fat strap that would stop the motor lifting past a certain point....where is that strap on the motor with hydraulics.

cheers
If I'm not mistaken most manual tilt motors now (and for a bloody long time before now) lock down automatically when you drop the motor from the raised position into the running position.
And if you want the motor to move up and down (ie unlocked) you have to manually shift a lever of some description to allow this.
To this little black duck that seems stupid because of what could happen if you hit anything at all. To me this is worse then having a relief in the hydrolics. It's locked. No getting over that.
They made this automatic locking feature because too many people were getting hurt and things damaged when they shift into reverse and give the motor full revs and the motor flies up out of the water if they had no lock down feature.

My old Tohy was like that. My Honda is like that. Dad's Evindudes are like that.

All my motors get a cable tie or something similar to 'override' the locking feature. I don't really need the feature as when I go into reverse I know not to up it that much the motor pops up to become a whipper snipper on steroids.

I'm really glad no one was hurt in the original incident.
Things happen. Some things you can see happening. Some you cannot.
It would be nice if you could see 10 minutes into the future so you could see all the impending hazards of life :-/

[Noelm]

as usual, Spaniard is on the money, a power tilt unit does indeed allow for the Motor to come up if you hit something, been there and done that, now unless it was just so quick that something let go first or something has failed (unlikely but possible) I have seen hundreds of Motors that have hit sandbars and at pretty high speed and suffered no ill affects, not too sure about Insurance, but I guess that's what we have Insurance for huh? and accident is an accident!

[Noelm]

hey finga, not too sure a cable tie would be strong enough to counter a Motor in reverse! espcially anything of reasonable size, but you never know!

[cormorant]

The motor manufacturers advrtise the feature that their hydraulic trims have a relief valve to stop overpressure events when you have a on water strike so smashing your leg off or tearing out your transom doesn't occur.

If the motor was designed to push a boat to 40kmp/h then the trim should be designed for that.

I would look at the parts diagram and determin if your motor has a 2 stage overpressure , stage one may be a spring loaded ball valve in the housing and stage 2 may be on the piston itself or even a thinner part on the ram casing designed to break under extreme load. I would find these parts and have them inspected and tested by a hydraulics engineer or someone who they will accept if insurer or manufacturer give you grief.

Older smaller motors had a couple of stronger springs which attached to the trim pin and were engaged only when a motor was placed in reverse to stop it flying up out of the water. The natural balance point of these motors ( heavy powerheads over the back) kept the leg in the water at other times and some brands had the springs in tension all the time and you could only tilt the motor by releasing the tilt clip.

Many boats transoms can never be repaired after such an event so be very wary about repair verses replacenment and same in regards to motors intenals after over revving.

Be good if you can add some photos when you have it sorted as I think everyone will be surprised at the damage. Can't imaging what my nerves would be like after that - you are lucky not to have had anyone injured.


The scariest part of all this is that the modern transom brackets are allowing this to happen. In the past transom brackets had a physical stop cast into the bracket that stopped the motor going beyond about 90 degrees and as mentioned many had straps or wire rod stop. This is a design fault where they are relying only on the hydraulic trim rams. The motor should never be allowed to go as far as breaking off a tiller control unit.

Just thinking further about safety and design , on your motor the kill switch has been torn off with the tiller ? but motor hasn't stopped? The kill on different motors works by either completing or opening a circuit. O closed circuit one may be better in this case as if the tillr is torn off themn teh circuit wold be open and motor would stop.

Keep us up to date with how you go.
I think a few motor manufacturers have some design issues to think about

[oldboot]

This is serioulsy the stuff that law suits are made of.

If the event had come out much less happily, and the insurers realy go going.
Particularly a life or public liability insurer looking at coughing a couple of $mil for a life, I think the outboard manufacturer would be in serious trouble.
Coroners enquiries, marine enquiries, police involved, court cases, definite media attention, and so on.

There is no way that the bracket on any outboard of any size should allow the motor to flip all the way over under any circumstance.

If this was a motorcar this one instance would have triggered a recal.

Oh BTW....this most definitely should have been reported to MSQ and a " marine incident".

cheers

[finga]

hey finga, not too sure a cable tie would be strong enough to counter a Motor in reverse! espcially anything of reasonable size, but you never know!
na matey, It just holds the 'safety lock' in the unlocked position. ;D

[Noelm]

OH, OK, I guess I must have read it incorrectly (as usual)

[tunaticer]

My motors in locked position always over-ride the locking when the leg hits anything with any force. Not once has any motor I have used not come up when hitting something at anything above say 10 knots.

I would really like to see a series of good detail pics of the hydraulic assembly, the pivot area, any damages and the tiller breakages, plus an image of someone holding the engine up to the limit where it broke all these things.

Not saying it did not happen or anything, but a few images of the damages will quell a lot of the slinging going on here.

Jack.

[tim barra master]

Thanks for some great replys guys some if not all of you make alot of sense
I do however think i know why the unit failed as i could have been i trim mode as hornets do require further adjustment regarding boat speed
What i am attempting to prove is that when the tiller is in up mode the releif will not function as there is pressure on the otherside of the relief valve therefore no give and a blow out.

If one of you fine gents or ladys can disprove this please do.

Can anyone help me upload photos as plenty are asking..

[The_Tub]

Hey tim

sounds like a nightmare,its good to hear no one was hurt or killed,accidents like that just remind people just how easy things can go from great and enjoyable to really bad real quick:o i bet the passengers were hanging on when she took off again,hope your new motor and repairs are 100%

mal

[tim barra master]

Thanks Mal
I am having a prick of a time first repairer failed three times to give correct quote to insurer MORE DELAYS
then the insurer tried the market value trick STOP THE F------- BUS my boat is not 2yrs old yet
I had to explain there policy disclosure form to them then inform them they were infor a fight more delays I WON THAT DISPUTE
boat sat for 20 days then went to get welded
the so called repairer Too lazy to remove floor boards to repair the transum properly BURNT MY BLOODY CARPET FLOOR
I purchased my old motor back from the insurer only to find parts have been removed and given away to other parties
The police were then involved
The boat motor ect retrived from _ _ _ _ _ and then sent onto another repairer the floor boards removed to be re trimmed and the boch up repair to be tidied up and painted Still waiting for parts from Quintrex.
Progress on boat unknown at this stage but i will not bother the repairer till his estimated time has passed as his reputation is good I should have gone there first but as they were not my nearest ----- outboard dealer Anyway when the hull is ok I then have to tow it 60Ks away to another ---- outboard dealer where the new outboard will be fitted Hopfully ok there too
The moral to the story is here ((((SINK THE BASTARD ENJOY NEW BOAT))))))))))

[cormorant]

Relief valves on trims I have dealt with are mechanical and should work regardless of any other factor as they are a safety valve. I haven't dismantled all brands so will wait for photos so I know what brand we are talking. Have a look at the parts diagram.

[Aussie123]

Hiya Tim
If you want the pics uploaded email them to me and I can upload them for you.
Lance

[Dirtysanchez]

Holy crap, thats a terrible accident and by the sounds of it should not have happened at all. Did you buy it new ? and if so have you advised the original dealer (if they aren't the ones repairing it?)

Glad you and yours are OK

[blaze]

I wonder if the point of inpact had any thing to do with this failure, I would think tht under normal conditions of impact the lower leg would be the most common strike zone. With floating logs etc, the point of impact may well have been higher up the trunk. Would be nice to have an engineers report on failure.
Hope all is sorted to your satifaction sooner rather than later
cheers
blaze

[finding_time]

then the insurer tried the market value trick STOP THE F------- BUS my boat is not 2yrs old yet
I had to explain there policy disclosure form to them then inform them they were infor a fight more delays I WON THAT DISPUTE


This is the reason i now insure with suncorp! New for old is very important, i had a fight over this very same issue with my old insurer they want to give me the value of the depreciated component>:( I to won but on advice of my repairer i changed to suncorp, the repairer had seen this problem to many times with that insurer

Ian

[tin can marlin]

this is not a good story at all timare the repairs going well at the new place and why did you not take the boat back to telewater as they are the builder etc.

[Aussie123]

Heres a pic of the motor after we did some bush engineering on it to reattach the tiller.
You can see how the cowl has been smashed in and also in the bottom left of the pic you can just see the edge of where the boats transom well was smashed in from when the motor came over and smacked into it.

[tin can marlin]

Hi Aussie 123 were did tim have all of the problems with the dealer because you would think at the moment you would be doing anything you could to retain business etc.

[tim barra master]

yep I think the dealer has done enough damage to his business without me sledging them
I did not even want the photo that has been posted put on at this stage as the dealer dosnt need enemies they are there own worst enemy
they missed out on selling me a new 60hp
they missed out on owning my old motor it only had a hundred hours on the clock needed some parts but runs perfectly
They have missed out on selling me something else forever caravans included
Any way some more photos for those who disbalieve LATER
No i think that telwater would not have been an easy option for repair

[black runner]

Sounds like you've hit a very high mass object which has hardly deflected at all after impacting the leg fairly high up creating rapid acceleration of both the leg upwards and powerhead forwards. The relief valve may well have operated but the outboard had so much momentum that it completely ripped the ram assy apart.

This is in contrast to hitting an object down near the skeg (probably 300mm lower) where, although the force exerted on the lower unit may be more, acceleration of the upward movement of the leg is significantly less. Good case for some sort of safety strap to stop the thing going over centre in cases like this.

My old manual tilt had a slotted guide that prevented the motor from being tilted past horizontal. Something you don't seem to see on ptt setups. I reckon if you hit anything fast and hard enough and in the right spot something is going to let go as at some point the design parameters will be exceeded.

I hit a stray, partially submerged poly float from a fish farm at about 18 knots in my previous 4m runabout and it flung my outboard leg clear of the water and bent the prop shaft. It did drop back though but I think the slide guide stopped it going any further.

Hope you get it all back and setup to your satisfaction soon.

[Tim_N]

I thought from the original post, the outboard was torn from the transom and ended up inside the boat, but the pic still has the outboard attached to the transom.
How did the outboard end up in the boat or am I missing something here?
Did the outboard just over tilt and end up being verticle in the engine well, or over tilt even further so the prop was facing upside down in where the pedistal seats are????????
Not being a smart ar$e, just trying to work out how it all went down.
Tim

[Jeremy]

caravans included

know who it is now thanks for the heads up

[tin can marlin]

Well done tim for your thread nothing worse that haveing a product that is not up to scratch i think i would be right in saying you won't be buying another yamaha after what happened.

[Aussie123]

Here's a few more pics of the damage.

[tin can marlin]

Gee looks ugly was a fair old hit. How are the repairs going at fisher i bet they are on the ball with how to fix it. When it comes to alloy boats col is the man.

[tim barra master]

fisher did the nessesary repair the next morning after i delivered the boat then sent it on to get painted cant ask for more than that thanks Col
got another yammy courtasy of the insurer up until this accident i have always had no complaint with the 50 hp so i went with a 60 this time same engine different computer, the guys from stones corner did a great job as well
They serviced my last motor after sundown folded I had no comlpaint the guys are good at what they do
Sometimes it pays to travel the extra few miles to get a reliable job done first time
Rays canvas and marine retrimed the burnt carpets, as usual a first class job
I have had him do many jobs for me now I never quibble the bill as the jobs right


Anyway if this one flippes up i will be really pissed off

[jimbo 69]

what sort of boat Tim?

[tim barra master]

quintrex 435 hornet trophy

[jimbo 69]

i thought the 435 hornet was only rated for a 50hp max, will this affect insurance if you had to make another claim?

or did you get some changes made with the repairs?

[jimbo 69]

I am buying a 435 with a 50 yammy myself8-)

will probably pick it up this break, how have you got yours set up would like to see some pics if you got any, pm me if you want.

other than the big misshap how have you found it?

[tin can marlin]

Great to here it has all worked out for you tim i must say you have handled yourself well by not nameing and shameing the dealer you first went to. I must say i would have been tempted and stones really do look after you i have always delt with them and have found them to be A1 .

[tim barra master]

g day jimbo your right the hornet is rated to 50 but if you get your quinny dealer to fill in a application form for an increase in hp tellwater will send you a sticker to re compliance to 60 hp price diff between 50-60 $200
mine would not run a 13 pitch prop with the 50 so 45ks was flat biscuit
I have not tested the 60 yet but i am hoping for the 13 to work maybe a 14 will find out on monday
I have found the hornet a fair boat does porpose in smooth water
not a bad ride in choppy water very stable at rest
i got mine in a tiller so i could roll the swag on the floor
under floor tank
it has two trolling motors foward and aft a big deep cycle batt as well as the starting batt in where the fuel tank would have been
i have a full leangth rod locker 45 cm wide down the port side that doubles as a side casting deck it is the same height as the foredeck

[tim barra master]

jimbo go for the 60 hp its not overpowered on the 435 about 55 kph flat but not stupid I tested mine with a fair load on rough water
I found the 14 pitch prop cruises at what was flat out with the 50 45ks
50 - 60 = 20% 45ks + 20%=54ks I got 55Ks not bad
should be better on fuel and engine life
use a 12 pitch for a capacity load which is max prop for the 50hp on a 435
and if you tow a ski a 11 pitch just watch your max revs with less than a 13 pitch
without the permatrim the hornet is porposing badly and uncontrolled and the trim angle has to go way too far up to lift the bow to get speed I think a trim will also alow more pace as the thrust will be strait back instead of back and up trying to carry the bow
I had one on the last motor worked a treat
i wanted to try the thing before drilling holes in my new donk
My next job