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View Full Version : FUEL OR ENGINE PROBLEMNS 250 e tec



ozbee
03-11-2008, 11:41 AM
filled the boat with 300 litres of fuel on top of the 50 litres left from last trip(3 weeks old) out to the reef we went. was a pretty rough trip so i let my son drive8-) and i sat at the back . i did not notice any miss or surge in the engine and torque coming in and out of the sea was the usual sound.

first sign was when i moved the boat from spot to spot it stopped idling a couple of times.

when i took of to come home 100k journey i quickly noticed the fuel rate was .3 nm to the litre not the usual .6nm / litre:o torque seemed fine but the engine would only rev to 4400 rpm not 5 400 but would use up to 95 litres / hr so i cant see it as a fuel restriction problem dirty filter etc. when i got home:( scared i was going to run out of fuel i noticed the prop exhaust was black like a diesel with a thick layer of soot on the inside. any ideas motor is a 250 etec. how hard is it to pick up a miss in these new di engines taking in account i am engine wise. was there disel mixed in the servos fuel or maybe lack of spark advancement? any ideas

finding_time
03-11-2008, 12:11 PM
Sorry i haven't got any idea's other than some contaminated fuel but it does seem weird that it olny happened on the way home Ozbee ,It would have been a long couple of hours wondering if you were going to make it all the way !!!


Ian

Ps. it is refreshing to see some accurate figures regards fuel use of the 250 etec 0.6lper/nm is very similar to a mate of mines!

Noelm
03-11-2008, 12:27 PM
I guess first off maybe take it to the "doctors" and hook up a laptop to see if anything is amiss that the Engine knows about! you could fool around for days swapping stuff and still never find out!

chop duster
03-11-2008, 12:27 PM
try posting this on the e-tec owners forum. My guess is the plugs. Black soot is unburnt fuel.

Mr__Bean
03-11-2008, 12:52 PM
An easy one to check first, is the tank breathing properly?

Has a mud wasp nest blocked the breather?

Easy to check, first visually then by blowing down the fuel filler and making sure that it vents properly.

- Darren

ozbee
03-11-2008, 02:02 PM
breather is fine spewed at me when filling full . i will take it to dealership just that's its 90 k away and of course the weather has dropped right down after finally having to wait for the reef closure to finish.

Noelm
03-11-2008, 02:13 PM
did you happen to notice a lot more Oil used than you would have expected?

ozbee
03-11-2008, 02:30 PM
it used about 6 litres of xd 100 which is a bit more than usual but running at 4000 rpm or just overthey tend to normally be about 70 to one anyhow . being rough weather i thought maybe it would use a little bit more. point is though this motor when new was set on 50 to 1and i was chewing as much xd 100 then as this trip now with no problemns. i used at least 330 litres for about 6 to7litres as a guess on a visual on the tank.so the figures would be around tht 50 to 60 to i iwould guess.

SeaHunt
03-11-2008, 02:33 PM
Sounds like one of the cylinders wasn't firing for whatever reason.

It would explain the black oily exhaust, the lack of economy, conking out on idle and not revving out properly.
Pulling the plugs out will soon tell you which one.
A new plug could fix it or it may be more serious.
Much diesel in the petrol and it wouldn't run at all.
How many cylinders is it? if its 4 or more you probably wouldn'y notice one cylinder not firing properly, especially on a 2 stroke.

Mindi
03-11-2008, 03:19 PM
Ask Huey or Liquidnirvana on http://forums.etecownersgroup.com/mb/barnaclebill?forum=115573

Jabba_
03-11-2008, 03:45 PM
OZBEE, I had the same problem your describing... At 20 hours...
WOT was down, black sutt, exssive fuel use, motor appears to run fine... Strange thing is it did not throw any codes

I had 1 injector replaced as it was running rich, and they also change the EMM....
After that the motor actually went better then it did new...

ozbee
03-11-2008, 04:11 PM
hmmm a definite trip to the shop

scorpionNQ
03-11-2008, 08:49 PM
Keep us informed on the result Ozbee
Cheers

Spaniard_King
03-11-2008, 09:04 PM
Ozbee,

sounds like your engine has gone into safe mode.. a predetermined bunch of settings which allows the engine to run on base settings...allows you to get home but generally uses rich fuel mixtures so as not to damage anything.

Definatley requires a BRP engine analyzer to diagnose it.. not worth playing around with that technology.

disorderly
03-11-2008, 09:16 PM
That's a bugga ,Ozbee....

but were the fish biting.????

adoandbeck
03-11-2008, 09:28 PM
i have also been told which ya probably know already ethanol blended fuels can seperate from the mix which would change the octane let alone be bad for motor...just one to ponder

cormorant
04-11-2008, 01:36 AM
On the V6 you will find it very hard to pick a cylnder not firing as with electronic idle the ECU compensates and pumps more fuel into the other 5 injectors. Cowls are quite good at noise suppression as well but a slight andI mee slight vibration happens. You said you know your way around a motor but please be careful as these tests without a computer mean motor is running for some. It is always nice knowing what is wrong before going to the shop and this way you'll possibly know if anyone later tells you porkies. It has to end up in the shop anyway unless it is just a plug.

Same happens under load but as you have experienced you won't rev out fully. 5 pots will be running extra rich trying to produce more power as ECU believes the motor is trying to accelerate under load as it hasn't recognised 1 pot isn't producing HP

Computer will not show error if no alarms happened.

Your motor has not gone into safe mode

Easiest check Pull plugs but after that if you want to narrow it down you could do a couple of things to see if it is mechanical, spark or fuel injector or ecu. None of these involve any need for BRP computer link. Check plug tip hasn't fallen off into cylinder.

Put it on Muffs and start.
Pull each plug lead on and off. You will detect a slight and I mean slight for only a second or so ,drop in revs at each of 5 and no difference on 1. That is the problem pot. Yes they still run on 4 and are just not quite as smooth.

Pull the plug in that CYL and check it is OK. Put acompression tester on it - no compression or low and - well I'll say no more. Replace plug with one you know is working. If plug is extra clean , water has been in there and possibly a head gasket oring gone.

Still dead pot?

Use timing light that has induced current loop and with motor running place it over spark plug lead and check the plug lead is setting off the light. Ie you have spark in lead.

If none you have an issue either ecu or coil - whatever they call it now.

If it is OK then time to check injectors. See if they are firing.
Normally with computer plugged into ECU and motor not running you just go into laptop and fire each injector individually and you can hear or feel them. Doesn't guarantee fuel is going into pot but ECU assumes fuel is there as there is a fuel pressure sensor. This lack of knowing fuel possibly hasn't gone into the pot and the fact that the ETEC doesn't alarm when it can't make the correct rev profile for fuel going into it are a downside to ETEC engineering. A sensor in every exhaust port area would solve this.

Without computer you can do 2 things . Put the inductive loop of timing light around electrical lead going to injector with motor running. Should fire light. Check a couple of injectors not just the sus one as you may be getting a trigger on timing light by interference from plug leads etc so keep it clear of these. If there is no fire signal to injector it is either a wiring or ECU problem. ECU prob should have created an alarm code on gauge.

If you have a stethascope with a probe attachment. Place on end of injector with motor running ( careful on the eardrums) and you should be able to hear it fire (click click click) . If not it could be injector if you have already checked trigger wires are firing a trigger signal. Usual dumb ones here is to check the electrical connector on and off only when ignition is all turned off.

So by now you have narrowed it down to one of the following
Injector
ECU
wiring
Sparkplug
Piston , rings , Oring head gasket, bore stuffed

A few other ideas

When shop fixes it get them to run an engine tune decarb through the motor as it has done the equivalent of XX hours with the choke on under great load with only 5 pots working.

Get them to do a borescope inspection of piston tops as a faulty injector or failing ECU can cause pitting and damage. Check for eccessive carbon build up, bore scoring and heat damage as it loads up the other 5 pots. You need to know the user knows what they are looking for. Ethanol fuels are really bad in these situations due to different heat in cylinder.

Get all new plugs

Do a compression test after a few runs to nake sure all is well.


Corm


PS always ask for and get a full print out of ECU and write compression test results on it from the shop.

Noelm
04-11-2008, 08:02 AM
that's why I asked way back if it was using excess Oil, when they go into a "safe mode as distinct to a SLOW they will over Oil and over fuel to make sure you are still going, hence the black soot and more Oil than usual, but it may still need a trip to Hospital to make sure there is nothing wrong, and correct, no alarms will usually mean no codes.

Jabba_
04-11-2008, 08:16 AM
Ozbee's motor is still able to achieve 4400rpm at WOT, so it is definitely not going into safe mode.. When safe mode is activated the revs drop immediately to 1500-1800rpm...

Noelm
04-11-2008, 08:37 AM
no, that is a true SLOW mode, most of the newer ones have two sets of "safety" modes, one for when there is a bad problem (the 1500 RPM) and one for who knows? it over Oils and over fuels, just in case.

ozbee
04-11-2008, 04:32 PM
thanks for all your help your all pretty well dead on . ive done the 85 ks to Townsville and for once my sensa brakes decided not to have a smoke up. its Melbourne cup day so ill get all the information what's wrong but as soon as he walked past the motor by the amount of black smoke stains on the back cowling he immediately said there's a injector gone.

ill keep you all up on the results also said there is a better plug to use also.

ozbee
04-11-2008, 04:57 PM
not real good disorderly 22 trout one emperor 6 sweetlip and a few job fish and sharks and sharks

Shanoss
04-11-2008, 04:58 PM
Quality injectors in these Etecs..... I've figured out that BRP can offer no scheduled services for three years because they know the motor is gonna be back in the first year.

ozbee
04-11-2008, 08:55 PM
170 hrs in the first year and this wont cost a cent so what about your services were they free

cormorant
05-11-2008, 08:56 AM
I think the ETEC and BRP knockers do have some traction with their point as overseas the warranty is 5 years. The same applies to other brands spare parts and warranty. Why as consumers are we letting them get away with such short warranties on parts that should last the lifetime of a motor?

I think us Aussies are getting stiffed by BRP as a ECU or a injector should last and have a 5 year life and 3000hrs at the blink or an eye and they are excessively expensive in Australia.

So BRP should get their head out of the sand and supply parts at reasonable prices and also warranty their injectors and ECU for 7 years. These 2 components alone make up too larger % or a motor repair if it is second hand or out of warranty.

Sorry to drag the thread off topic a little but I am seeing all motor manufacturers having failing parts that are unserviceable sealed units that should last the life of the motor fail prematurely. This affects the resale of those motors as if you were to buy one secondhand out of warranty motor you have to discount it in case a major part fails and there is no warning of this as it is random.

Under trade practices the consumers should not accept these failures in the first 7 yeras or 2500hrs as motor or parts were not fit for service. If the motor manufacturers can't make money and produce parts that last that long sonmething is wrong and failures should be bourne by them. If not they should halve the upfront price of their donks.

Well that's my rant for today

Ozbee I am glad it has failed inside the warranty period and being replaced but it has to be asked what would be the answer if it was 1 week out of warranty , 6 months out of warranty or 1 year out of warranty. If aninjector should last 2500hrs then how would a generall mum and dad user feel having only done 170 hrs after 3 years and having a failure 3 weeks out of warranty. I know some manufacturers are being OK about warranty claims but BRP , or other manufacturers and dealers can turn off that tap off overnight.

The other thing that irks me is that it didn't "alarm" so that you knew it was a motor part issue. This is because there is no individual exhaust sensors per pot. Still being so far out of the ECU load , fuel, revs per fuel curve you should expect a warning that motor is overloaded. At least you noticed the lack of revs ( many wouldn't) and took action to get it serviced. We all know that motors labouring is what kills them and failing injectors can cause damage to pistons , bore and bearings if continued running occurs. If you ran it for another 3 trips and something else let go would full warranty still stand since there was no alarm or "have you neglected your motor".

ozbee
05-11-2008, 10:10 AM
a well put point cormorant is the injector the weakest point in the link or is it the most abused. fuel blends vary so much from country to country never mind some week to week like ours you have premium with ethanol and some with out it must be a fuel manufactures dream in Australia you seem to be able to put anything you want in as long as it reaches it ron level out it goes with paint strippers etc to make a filler. the fact that the engine recognised the problem and added more oil to the mix and retuned to balance it out as much as possible to get me the 100 k home is a great safety feature in some ways it was to successful in the hands of a novice he may miss the actual problem.

In the old days a two stroke taking off with a miss stood out so far you could hear it a mile away. it just goes to show the di two stroke of today has no resemblance of the two of yesterday

cormorant
05-11-2008, 10:45 AM
In the USA fuel is a even bigger issue due to enforce ethanol due to politics in most blends. Manufacturers know fuel is crap all round the world so it shouldn't be used as an excuse unless you get the 50% paint stripper mix from a dodgy operator.

Injectors and fuel system should be built to cope with all the fuels avaliable including the bad ones.

Not even sure the injector is really a weak link but in a motor where the crank rods and bearings are a known quantity for the last 15plus years they are a known and with only a half dozen other active moving parts I guess the injectors and electronics are going to get all the claims and air on forums.

The ECU or EMM whatever they want to call it should recognise a failure either by feedback from that component or at least from the motor not performing within it's designated curve for fuel and revs.

Your motors ecu basically was dumping twice the fuel required for the revs it was getting and did so for hours without setting off an alarm or service code. With the cooling sytstems getting so good it is amazing the damage that can happen to one pot if the sensors only measure 1 or 2 places for temp. Exhaust gas sensors or even cheap temp sensors on individual exhaust ports could indicate a issue of an injector not firing , wrong spray pattern or leaning out the mix ( much worse).

As for a safety feature - well the motor didn't do anything you did. The old ear and eye safety check spotting soot. The motor ECU dumbly just kept dumping in fuel to the other 5 pots thinking it was accellerating up on to the plane for the 100km but not actuallt getting to the plane. The motor assumed the boat was oerloaded ot that the motor was overpropped so just gept pumping in juice and changing the ignition timing as if it was trying to accellerate which is hard on piston tops. The only good thing is that with the ECU thinking it was trying to accellerate it would have been putting in extra oil with all that fuel.

Vibration on a old 2 troke was the give away as they didn't automaticaly adjust fuel and timing to compensate. Unless they could rev out smoothly they would feel gutless and not spin out enough to get you on the plane then foul a plug.

Be interesting what the mechanic gets of the computer and if it recognised any problem or threw a code. Get a full EMM report.

Be interested if they actually do a preventative check on compressions and borescope engine tuner it of just bung a new injector in it that is all teh warranty hours BRP give them allows for. A pitted piston or scratched bore may well run for 1hr or 2000hr it is a lottery. Ask your dealer what preventative checks they would do if it was a race motor

Shanoss
06-11-2008, 09:30 PM
170 hrs in the first year and this wont cost a cent so what about your services were they free

Of course they were not free. But in Three years i have never had a problem with my motor. And then if you deduct the extra 2.5k for the equivalant Etec, I'm still miles in front. Literally and figuratively.

Shane.

P.S. Your first "scheduled" service is going to be pretty bloody far from free as well.

ozbee
07-11-2008, 09:07 AM
yes and if i had a mercury verado at a whole 2.6 piddle cu capacity with one pot down i still would of been still trying to get my 3 tonne of boat up on the plane to get home. mate i own a Honda 20 a Honda 50 a 250 etec and a merc 3.5. i go by what i feel is best suited to the application. i also like Yamaha but telewater screwed me with one of there tinnies so Yamaha are out where i am cause there the agent for quintrex.on a light boat like a bass boat i would quite happy go for a souped low cube motor but on a heavy boat like mine most people would go for cubes over high compression even if it meant a slightly higher fuel consumption. evinrude and mercury have been around before you were born and will probably be 100 years after your dead so as to which is the best is pretty pointless its more of a certain model that shines ahead of the rest definitely not brand.

chop duster
07-11-2008, 09:49 AM
ozbee,
the latest figures have shown the 'mercury verado at a whole 2.6 piddle cu capacity' to have the most torque out of all the engines available today.
Anyways, good to hear you were still able to plane and get back into port at a reasonable pace.

P.S- 22 trout ? WTF ? a bad trip ? hahahah, that we be our boat record (only day trips though)

Noelm
07-11-2008, 09:49 AM
not too sure how shanoss statements help him solve his problem in any way, if you want to toot your horn about your Motor, so be it, start a thread and do it, this guy is asking for some inteligent advice, so if you can offer none but how good your Motor is, then what's the point?

ozbee
07-11-2008, 10:47 AM
what's get me is we had a patch of red bass come through some over 15 kg not one was touched by sharks yet if a red emperor or sweetlip they were targets . the night was pitch black so sharks must be able to distinguish variety. sharks up this way have a zest for grabbing the sinker 8 oz don't now why but i went through approx 30 . this is the only part of the Queensland coast that shark numbers are recording as increasing. i hope not to much more.i must admit i have moved a bit to the dark side half way through the night i pulled out the electric reel sure saved the back. shimano 4ooo hp with about 90 lbs pulling power i wasn't sure weather i was going over the side or the fish come up.i was fishing in 60 mtrs these reel would be great on the shelf.

ozbee
07-11-2008, 12:46 PM
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk123/ozbee_photos/SANY0099.jpg

i forgot a few photos i took but nothing spectacular i find if i keep to 30 meters and below it seem to be out of depth of the live trout trade so size is up though these are pretty average. good picture of dad and his son first trip to the reef both caught at same time straight up there still squabling which is the biggest.

chop duster
07-11-2008, 04:27 PM
your not wrong about the sharks and red bass or trevally!
Pro fisherman I talk to agree the sharks are more of a problem (being more frequent) than ever.
Nice trout by the way!
Hoping to get out on sunday for a few.

tin can marlin
07-11-2008, 11:33 PM
I must say it is amazing how many issues there are with etecs when they only ahve 6 percent of the market.

Shanoss
08-11-2008, 02:28 PM
not too sure how shanoss statements help him solve his problem in any way, if you want to toot your horn about your Motor, so be it, start a thread and do it, this guy is asking for some inteligent advice, so if you can offer none but how good your Motor is, then what's the point?

And the above statement offers what? How does your comment vary from mine? Are you the "thread police?" And if you want to be "intelligent" then a good place to start is with the correct spelling of the adjective.
I could be nit picking, probably am, but who made you moderator?

disorderly
08-11-2008, 03:26 PM
P.S- 22 trout ? WTF ? a bad trip ? hahahah, that we be our boat record (only day trips though)

Yeah I'd be happy with that also..although,Ozbee I get what you are saying...I'm guessing you had 4 on board so if you divvi them up then it's not so many each...but they sure are tasty..:).

As for the sharks ..I find them less of a problem in 60-70m shoaly bottom than in 30m reefy bottom.....but it sucks when you get onto fish and the sharks move in.:(

Scott

Ps..Noel and shanoss...this post will not help Ozbee's motor either...but hey it is a fishing forum isn't it.....lighten up dudes..;);D

ozbee
08-11-2008, 05:08 PM
thats the point they are coming through just like nannys in the middle of no where at night on the shoal grounds . they must be schooling and moving through following reds. im sure MT ISA mines runs just to keep me suppiled in lead.

disorderly
09-11-2008, 08:50 PM
Yeah I cop a hammering with the sharks sometimes...but some trips, they are not so bad...but there's always some.

I know what you mean about losing gear....it's nothing for me to go through $20-30 worth of sinkers by myself...

I just bought a 20l container of old tyre weights but havent got around to actually making any snapper leads,yet.

Before last trip I even sent the boy up the back of our place scouring the cane train line for old clip things which weight around 4-5 ounces...He came back with about a dozen

Scott

cormorant
10-11-2008, 06:59 AM
I must say it is amazing how many issues there are with etecs when they only ahve 6 percent of the market.


Hi Tim Can Marlin

Do you have the % numbers for other manufacturers and what date or country are they from? I guess the key to all % numbers is the motor size they are based on and if they are just counting outboards not I/O as well. Ist world or are we talking worldwide which includes all the carby jobs still being built for islands.

Be good if a thread could be started and every quarter new numbers were put up. The only ones I know of are JD Powers survey (USA) and manufacturer numbers which are often in conflict. If there were honest numbers published it would show a transition from manufacturer to manufacturer which would be good to be able to see.

Seems these threads end up saying regardless of brands that the dealer is as least 50% of the reason to buy one motor over another. With the trend to upgrade every 5 or so years as we are travelling further out and want reliability manufacturers might want to wake up and vet their dealers a bit more to ensure customers aren't in the position of never buying their brand as the dealer is a evil drop kick or there warranty practises aren't clear.

Noticed direct injection in the new Ferrari Calafornia to get more smooth power from the V8 and meet emission law with fuel economy. Anyone know what type of injection system they are using? Few years time and 4strokes outboards will have either cat converter - (hard and expensve to do) or have to use port or direct injection as well.

Back to the topic - Hey Ozbee thave they got your motor fixed and exactly what was it? Have they checked it out to make sure there was no longer term damage?

Corm

PS nice trout.

Noelm
10-11-2008, 07:20 AM
And the above statement offers what? How does your comment vary from mine? Are you the "thread police?" And if you want to be "intelligent" then a good place to start is with the correct spelling of the adjective.
I could be nit picking, probably am, but who made you moderator?
Never said I was a moderator , but your "opinions" are as much help as all the Fishing talk going on now, not too sure how Sharks and Nannies help in sorting out a fuel issue! or for that matter, arguing about it, so lets just leave it at that.

ozbee
10-11-2008, 11:04 AM
im going up to Townsville today have to have my head MRI from a old infection hope they find a brain still. going there after that so should have all the goodies to tell. i had a new water pump put seeing as i go through a lot of shallow creek water before the deep blue.

actually had to change my ss rebel prop as it was failing badly in holding the boat up in seas that's trim tabs included. yeah it stopped biting under 4500 revs the new one was back to 3500 and sweet. its amazing the difference what had worn was the small concave lip at the back of the blade not the front. i assume the sand floating in the turbulent water acted like a emery stone and polished the back edge of. question is who's good at rebuilding props especially that back lip. im in NQ so bris is probably the best .

are SS props a lot softer these days or is it the more pronounced curve that the older day props didn't have. does chroming also weaken props after all its just for looks i imagine.

Blackened
10-11-2008, 02:59 PM
does chroming also weaken props after all its just for looks i imagine.

G'day

I'm sure you're referring to polished stainless steel?

Dave

Mindi
10-11-2008, 04:34 PM
Solas at Warana on Sunshine Cst are excellent

cormorant
10-11-2008, 04:59 PM
Keep it onboard as a spare with appropriate tools and split pin in case you tear a hub or damage a blade. They are never the same in my experience and with the ETEC I would stick with teh correct props for warranty alone.

Jabba_
10-11-2008, 05:27 PM
Agreed^^^^

I had a minor chipped repaired in my Viper II prop... Ever since it has never been the same. It dropped 2mph at 3000- 3800rpm, but at 4000 to 5000 it picked up 2mph. But then at 5800 it has dropped 3mph.... Beats me, and all the figures at from GPS

Buy a new prop a look after it...... I'll be buying a new prop after Christmas.. Hopefully I'll crack that 100kph.....

ozbee
10-11-2008, 09:02 PM
any how was no 2 injector kaput compression fine so im all go to wear some of my new prop. i got a new water pump put in so it looks like they have about the same life expectancy as a rebel ss prop in my hands.WATCH OUT TROUT HERE I COME dont worry i wont catch them all jabba im only allowed 35. ill tie a peg and a ballon on them with these NE you might get them in a week

Jabba_
11-11-2008, 05:39 AM
Good to hear it is sorted....

RE: the trout,,, I'm been trying to get the boss to send me up north again to do another bank refurbishment.... Last time, was last July at Mackay. Got in a heap off fishing and landed a nice trout..... I don't think we get them down here, anyway, the Marlin are stating to turn up and I'll start chasing them real soon..
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y159/jabba1/0706290135.jpg

ozbee
11-11-2008, 08:03 AM
good you can teach me all the set ups ive only had one on in my life and that was by mistake . had a triple hook of spandards with two of us in the boa tso one was skull dragged for a while and chop all of a thrilling 30 sec though he did come right out they sure are a sight.

Jabba_
11-11-2008, 04:09 PM
good you can teach me all the set ups ive only had one on in my life and that was by mistake . had a triple hook of spandards with two of us in the boa tso one was skull dragged for a while and chop all of a thrilling 30 sec though he did come right out they sure are a sight.

I'm still learning to catch them myself, and I have heaps to learn. Last year I tried a few times but no luck,, This year tho it will be a full assault,,, providng the wife lets me go out play...

finding_time
11-11-2008, 05:58 PM
Jabba

Sorry to disapoint you but marlin have taste! There is know way known that there going to be attracted to that etec of yours!!!;) It's diesels or 4 strokes only mate!!!;D ;D ;D

Ian

ozbee
11-11-2008, 07:25 PM
yeah but mines in disguise it only runs on 5 cylinders the other cylinder is so us old two stokers can get some fumes

Jabba_
11-11-2008, 07:37 PM
Oh that is cruel Ian, and I thought you were starting to except the E-tec phenomenon of great economy, speed, reliability and quiet..... Surely the Marlin would like those characteristics.......If not,, would it help that my prop is big and really shiny?.....LOL

But, if I have to get a slow motor, I may as well get some good mileage with it, and get the Diesel....

ozbee
16-11-2008, 08:08 PM
did a 300 klm trip yesterday and today was as rough as hell first day . a lot of boats turned around great was forecast .6m yeah right anyhow boat went fine on fuel except when i got home and opened it up it would rev to 4500 tops. jabba did you say there was a safe mode also had the whole engine serviced , water pumps as well as all the engine filters. same prop

disorderly
16-11-2008, 08:13 PM
How did you guys go with the fishing,Ozbee...??

Can we expect a report??...

ozbee
16-11-2008, 08:30 PM
Saturday and Saturday night was a basher spent in close to the reef . that would have to been sea breeze worst one for the year sure caught a lot of people many came back in. let scott say i didn't count got a good hit sunday morning some nice size trout compared to the real close to the reef stuff . no nannys just to wild any distance out at a guees about 15 trout 4 or 5 emperor and half a dozen ssweet lip or a few more few other odds and ends

disorderly
16-11-2008, 08:38 PM
Bit of a bugger,mate ....

I was planning on a trip out tomorrow but we have been getting a few good gusts today and I was skeptical of the seabreeze predictions....Think I'll give it a miss.

Jabba_
16-11-2008, 09:00 PM
did a 300 klm trip yesterday and today was as rough as hell first day . a lot of boats turned around great was forecast .6m yeah right anyhow boat went fine on fuel except when i got home and opened it up it would rev to 4500 tops. jabba did you say there was a safe mode also had the whole engine serviced , water pumps as well as all the engine filters. same prop

I am certain the only safe mode on the E-tec limits the motor to 1500 - 1800rpm.. I would think there is something else wrong...
Did they inspect the piston with a scope and also do a compression test?

What colour is the inside off your prop hub... There are some pics of mine on the E-tec form for you to compare with yours.. http://forums.etecownersgroup.com/tool/post/barnaclebill/vpost?id=3080790
A 300 klm run would well and truly clean out the carbon build up inside the hub..
If it is sutty, you stil have an Injector problem or no spark to 1 cylinder...
Obviously all the spark plugs were changed, I assume...

Other then that, I would try a new prop (exzakly the same model and pitch you have now) to rule out it is not a prop problem you having.... There sensitive buggers those props... I caught a sand bank on Saturday and it damaged the prop slightly (blunted the leading edge and scratch the prop face)... It drop 200rpm because of it.... Fiiled it back sharp again, and I got back the rpm's today

If it still not reaching your normal rpm's at WOT I would be booking it back into the dealer to get it sorted... When you collect the boat, if possible take it to a boat ram close to the dealer and water test it before driving the 100+ km home....

cormorant
17-11-2008, 04:40 PM
Check you don't have a kink or restriction in the fuel system such as a collapsing fuel bulb.
back to the checks mentioned previously to resolve whether , compression, spark , fuel injector or computer related. I would check all fuel filters and fittings are firmly connected so there is no chance of air getting into fuel lines.
Check electrical connectors to all injectors and plug leads are all on firmly.
Check gearbox oil for water as it is amazing how much HP it absorbs if it ha swater in the oil.

Did the dealer give you a copy of the complete printout and also was it compression tested?
Did the dealer tank test the motor?

I'd clean that prop so you can tell next time if it is not running correctly - surprised the dealer didn't

What a pain - glad you got home fast at least.

Jabba_
19-11-2008, 04:30 PM
Got any news for us Ozbee???

ozbee
20-11-2008, 07:59 AM
i took it back they went all over it all cylinder firing as well as all injectors . compression 105 - 110 all cylinders were wondering if the new rebel 15.5 x 17 was stamped wrong anyhow took it for a run to the reef with the spare ally prop i had it is a14.75x 17 and it use to run 5700 flat out . i could coax it to 5000 by trim it right out i mean i right out then drop it back in to full grip, so its not the new prop.

im down about 700 rpm . iam going to ring them today so ill see what happens next. i wonder if it maybe a polished bore or sticky rings . the one other trait i notice is when your in a sea pushing fuel economy falls away something this motor never did before. any ideas , fuel delivery is fine and there is no miss but there still is some soot building up on the inside of prop.

can a polished bore give a ok on a compression test but fail under load.

Jabba_
20-11-2008, 04:51 PM
Something is out off whack for sure now you have eliminated the prop being a problem....
How is you fuel and oil consumption. Is it the any better since installing the new injector,,, or still the same?... Is it as good, better or is it worst then it use to be before any problem occurred with the injector???

Your prop should be clean inside the hub if your running XD100 on the XD100 ratio...

As for a polished bore, I cant answer that. Cormorant should know the answer...

Has the EMM been checked and double checked then checked again... When my injector went, I had the same symptoms you have had, and still having,,,it is very much like Deja Vu... When I got my motor back with a new injector, it still was not running 100%... So back to Hinterland Marine and they did the big search and got BRP involved... They couldn't find a fault.... In the end BRP sent them a new EMM to try out.... Bingo problem solved, and it been running perfect since...

The morale is, just because everything checks out fine, there still could be a under lying glitch with the EMM or the EMM software program.. If all else fails sternly suggest they install a new EMM

ozbee
20-11-2008, 06:22 PM
next step is they want to take it for a water test with the computer hooked up running did they do that with your motor jabba . my exhaust is still as black as a old diesel ute so it must be running rich . fuel usage is dropping down to as much as .3 nm/ litre at times especially under a bit of load. i use to get .65 nm/litre now its a battle to get .5nm/ litre and thats a real battle like cruising on a following sea.

finding_time
20-11-2008, 06:34 PM
Something is out off whack for sure now you have eliminated the prop being a problem....
How is you fuel and oil consumption. Is it the any better since installing the new injector,,, or still the same?... Is it as good, better or is it worst then it use to be before any problem occurred with the injector???

Your prop should be clean inside the hub if your running XD100 on the XD100 ratio...

As for a polished bore, I cant answer that. Cormorant should know the answer...

Has the EMM been checked and double checked then checked again... When my injector went, I had the same symptoms you have had, and still having,,,it is very much like Deja Vu... When I got my motor back with a new injector, it still was not running 100%... So back to Hinterland Marine and they did the big search and got BRP involved... They couldn't find a fault.... In the end BRP sent them a new EMM to try out.... Bingo problem solved, and it been running perfect since...

The morale is, just because everything checks out fine, there still could be a under lying glitch with the EMM or the EMM software program.. If all else fails sternly suggest they install a new EMM

Interesting how we have never heard of these problems you have had before Jabba, they must have been lost amoungst your rave reviews!!!;) :-[ :o

Jabba_
20-11-2008, 06:34 PM
I believe they did, but not much, if nothing was out of the normal....
Got to go Big storm comming

Jabba_
21-11-2008, 05:34 AM
Interesting how we have never heard of these problems you have had before Jabba, they must have been lost amoungst your rave reviews!!!;) :-[ :o
At 20hrs I had the injector fault, and the EMM replaced. The symptoms were, running rich and not producting max power. Since, it has been operating faultlessly.. I have mentioned it a coulpe off times on this forum...

Jabba_
21-11-2008, 04:19 PM
Finding Time.... Yes I get on the defence for the E-tec, because they are a top motor.. I'm so far the only bloke out of 5 that have E-tec's that has had a problem, and all tho I did have a problem, I was not stranded out at sea, I did not break down, I did not need assistance The motor work like it was business as usual, but it did use more fuel and it would only get 5200 WOT...... 5700 is the norm....

In the past I have owned all sort off boat's with differant motors... First being a , Johnson 25, Johnson 50, then a Merc 50 (1990 model it was a P.O.S), Then a 10 year break from boating and fishing... I then bought my Vermont with a 250 Ficht, which died from water ingestion, which lead to me buying the 250 E-tec.....

On top off those boats, my grandfather had a few as well. He got me into boating and fishing, and I properly spent more time in his boats then I did in mine. He owned a Chrysler 50 then a Yamaha 4st, 60hp IRC.....

In saying all that, every motor that my pop and I owned had a problem at some stage off its life, And that bloody Merc off mine, man I was ready to kick it of the transom and leave it behind because it broke down that often... We even got stuck up at the pin with the Yammie because the gear box clapped out...

Been out with a few Opti's, Yamaha's 4st and Suzuki's 4st... And there all top motors, (altho I still find it hard to trust the Merc's)... But my preference for my boat is the E-tec. It is a quiet as a 4st, there are very reliable, Exhaust fumes at idle and trolling is next to non-existent and certainly no worse then the 4st I went out in,,, and they have that 2st punch....

One thing I have observed is, the shape off the cuddy cabin/ half cabin makes the biggest difference to the amount off sound and the fumes you get from your motor,, not the actual motor itself, (if you understand what mean)...

cormorant
26-11-2008, 05:48 PM
Glazed bore, scored bore of oiling up of rings will all eventually show on a compression test or if the heade are removed for some other reason