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NAGG
25-09-2008, 08:47 AM
Hi All

After my recent whooping at Awoonga by the Mighty Whitey ....... I'm just after some opinions on why there was such a big difference in results ...... not just fish landed but strikes registered.

Over 3 full days & 1 evening session the results were something like

MW @ 22 fish landed ( around 12 jump offs) 30 missed bites

NAGG @ 5 fish landed ( 5 jump offs) & 10 missed bites

During some hot sessions Whitey would register 6-8 strikes to my 1-2:-/


Keep in mind that we basically fished the same lures for over 70% of the time.

Noticeable differences

MW = Slower 5000 size ABU OH , Standard 130 slick rigs , 80lb FC leader

NAGG = 6.3: 1 Zillion , Upgraded slick rigs / trailing stinger or heavier Nitro or TT jig heads , Twisted 60lb 10X leader.

My opinion is ......
LEADERS - I ran out of twisted 50lb Nitline after Mondy - Nitline is clear & thinner while 10X is opaque & thicker. ( Mondy results were much more even ..... with me slightly ahead all round)

PLASTICS - On the last day I dropped back to a standard slick rigs ....... & had 3 jump offs in the morning session alone ........ Is it the slower sink rate in shallow water

RETRIEVE RATIO - We talk about fishing slow ( which I feel I do) ....... but I missed several fish on a pause when I did things like look over my shoulder to look at something else , took my hand off the handle to wave to someone , put sunglasses on off:oops: ....... no joke..... it happened 5 or 6 times ( I'll be conscience of this now + incorporate a deliberate pause in my retrieve)

Anyhow what are your thoughts & experiences ...... have you found the same thing?:idea:
I dont believe it is a case of luck or "that's fishing"

Cheers

Chris

A_DIFF_PERSPECTIVE
25-09-2008, 09:38 AM
Nagg,
No two lures are ever the same, no two outfits are ever identical either, and no two anglers fish exactly the same. In just this alone, the retrieve pattern of any lure is subtley different and therefore results will be usually far contrasted, unless the fish are super hungry and rip into anything which is not common.
To open up another chapter that will blow your mind is 'frequency absorption' and 'frequency amplification'. It is too deep to go into here as most wouldn't understand it. A few copy cats exist out there too, so some stuff I'll keep for my own publications. To expand for you- yes there are times when one angler will far outfish his companion and vice versa, depending on lure size, weight, water resistance, line class and rod selection. One lure choice may see you create a gun combination- a simple lure swap may kill your chances completely. if I expanded on this one anglers would lose interest in fishing quickly as it does become so deep that simple thoughts get us into trouble. The first step for you was to notice that differences in results do exist, the second is to now identify why it happened and to make sure you control it in the future. One mm is one mile.
Johnny

Dick Pasfield
25-09-2008, 09:41 AM
Hardly enough data there to draw any conclusions NAGG, the boot could easily be on the other foot next time just due to circumstances. If it was happening regularly then you should be worried

If you need to start considering now also consider where the casts were going, who was working the new water first, who was getting the first cast in most often (the driver usually misses here), how many casts?hour /person.

As for your question "Ara barra fussy?" Yes.......................and no;D;D;D

2manylures
25-09-2008, 10:02 AM
Nagg, One of the main points you missed yet inadvertantly mentioned was depth. This was only mentioned {as I saw it} when you stopped cranking. Perhaps this pause was enough to allow the bait to sink to the desired depth {strike zone}.

Maybe your mate was fishing the correct depth more than yourself! Without being there it would be very difficult for anyone to put their finger on actual reason why.

Obviously something was different & I would suggest & seem to think he was where the fish were on more occassions than yourself.;D

In my opinion one of the mst important factors to understand & be aware of is the depth an anglers favourite lures will swim at when either trolled cast & moreso counted down whilst casting. Being too far above fish or below them will tell you this if they are showing on the sounder & moreso if your fishing partner is outcatching when all else seems very similar.:o

NAGG
25-09-2008, 10:12 AM
Hi Johnny & Dick

A little more information ..... which should be noted based on your comments

Lures were being cast into the same locations ( we were anchored)
My pains were felt over 3 days ...... in 2 particular locations registered over several hours ( one was a shallow bay with lantana ... & the other was flooded flats with timber)

Lures ..... were slick rigs ( we both threw Black & Gold .... Evil minnow) Occasionally we would tie on a green grunter or bleeding mullet) ..... My sink ratios were definitely faster ..... as you could see the difference in how much weed I would pick up

Rods ...... I used a fast actioned GLX loomis & a slower actioned Loomis ( glass / graphite blend)
MW used a fast actioned graphite Pfluegger & slower actioned Shimano Though MW registered his best results on the Pluegger / ABU combo ..... by far

Johnny you mention Lure frequency ...... I assume this is the vibration / beat that is given off by the lure as it moves through the water column ....... yes there would be subtle differences ........ but not when you have tied on a dozen or more over 3 days ...... with the same result

In the end ....... The register of strikes was the telling issue ........ very interesting!!!

Thanks for your opinions

Chris

NAGG
25-09-2008, 10:23 AM
Nagg, One of the main points you missed yet inadvertantly mentioned was depth. This was only mentioned {as I saw it} when you stopped cranking. Perhaps this pause was enough to allow the bait to sink to the desired depth {strike zone}.

Maybe your mate was fishing the correct depth more than yourself! Without being there it would be very difficult for anyone to put their finger on actual reason why.

Obviously something was different & I would suggest & seem to think he was where the fish were on more occassions than yourself.;D

In my opinion one of the mst important factors to understand & be aware of is the depth an anglers favourite lures will swim at when either trolled cast & moreso counted down whilst casting. Being too far above fish or below them will tell you this if they are showing on the sounder & moreso if your fishing partner is outcatching when all else seems very similar.:o

Hi 2many

The depth was shallow ........ we were casting to 1 - 1.5 M & Watching my mate wind the slack as soon as the plastic hit the water ...... & start the roll was I feel - no different to me ( lure sink rates were different over two days .... with my heavier jig heads) ....... but I altered that on the last day

Now with the pause ....... was it the stop or the allowing the plastic to drop 12-18 inches ????

It is interesting though:)

Chris

2manylures
25-09-2008, 10:37 AM
I may be wrong but again would suggest that if you were "in the weed" you may have been "under" the fish in these instances.

12"-18" may not sound much but it can be the difference. Now if this was in conjunction with lighter jigheads, with less weed being picked up this would suggest you bait was higher & the pasue allowed it to drop into the correct depth. Once again I'm unsure if these were all different factors on the final day which seemed more conjusive to you.

An example of this is whetre a mate & I trolling for trout in Lake Eucumbene in 10ft of water when the Browns were feeding on yabbies. My lure was swimmin at 8ft whilst my mates was at 6ft. I caught many more fish up until he adjusted his setup.

Two feet difference in this case but enough to make a huge difference.

Perhaps the "drop" was allowing the bait to fall right in front of noses, who knows, I don't and as mentioned it's hard to put a finger on if not there.

Maybe you need to do a more an indepth post-mortom on the 3 days with perhaps disregarding the technical & focus on the simple.

I do know for a fact that when grub/bait fishing for cod the 1st bait in the water 85% of the time will catch the fish.

I dont believe it is a case of luck or "that's fishing"
I agree wholeheartedly & I believe that if you aren't catching or being outfished then you are doing something wrong.

A_DIFF_PERSPECTIVE
25-09-2008, 11:08 AM
Nagg, the combination of lure, line diameter, rod material, rod angle, line sag, wet weight, cast angle, current flow, wind speed, winding speed and so on all adds up as one and creates it's own sonic type frequency. A lure is just maybe 10% of the equation here. Too deep for most to accept, but alive and kicking far above almost any other concept, especially when you notice it day after day after day. Each lure is best swum on a different outfit. Too deep for Ausfish, but fair for keen anglers around a camp fire who are willing to be open and absorbent.
Off to work now, in 25 knots of SE wind, and yes, I will be very specific with what lures, weights and outfits I select for clients to cast in these conditions.
Cheers,
Johnny

A_DIFF_PERSPECTIVE
25-09-2008, 11:12 AM
Think of paper cups on a string line that created a kids telephone, a way to communicate over the fence to your neighbours house. Pull the string tight if you want to hear the 'voice'. Different string sizes, different cups = a different sound wave.
cya
JM

NAGG
25-09-2008, 11:15 AM
Nagg, the combination of lure, line diameter, rod material, rod angle, line sag, wet weight, cast angle, current flow, wind speed, winding speed and so on all adds up as one and creates it's own sonic type frequency. A lure is just maybe 10% of the equation here. Too deep for most to accept, but alive and kicking far above almost any other concept, especially when you notice it day after day after day. Each lure is best swum on a different outfit. Too deep for Ausfish, but fair for keen anglers around a camp fire who are willing to be open and absorbent.
Off to work now, in 25 knots of SE wind, and yes, I will be very specific with what lures, weights and outfits I select for clients to cast in these conditions.
Cheers,
Johnny

Couldn't agree more Johnny on specific outfits , line diameter , leader , type & length .......... these things all make a difference to how a lure / plastic swims .......... I know that I will not certain lures on certain outfits ....:(

Camp fire discussion ..... for sure

Cheers

Chris

Steve B
25-09-2008, 11:51 AM
Chris, Johnny and Twomanylures have pretty much explained everything technical...IMHO....whitey was on fire...confidence breeds confidence....you werent so 'on fire'....I bet you spent a lot of time wondering and thinking about what whitey was doing different!!!....If so, thats part of the problem too.....Thats a big tip for ABT too. A lot (myself included) spend more time looking and worrying about what others are doing different.

Steve

black_sheep
25-09-2008, 02:29 PM
All has been said about tecnique/line/lures/retrieve speed............................!

What Vin and I sometime do is swap combos to see if it makes a difference. Again, it may not if the difference is your action but if it's purely equipment, you will notice it soon enough.

We discovered this at Awoonga a few years ago and the difference was the lure. Vin killed 'em on an RMG Scorpion 120 in the Chrome Pilchard. I bought one the next day from the kiosk and got blown away in the first 10 mins on a horse barra. Do you think would loan me his.....................................^*%*%

Barraboy7
25-09-2008, 03:15 PM
I agree with Steve B
Its just one part of the equation, many other parts as Johnny mentions.
The whole confidence thing, or lack of it, transmits into our action, focus and approach to every cast. Nothing would make you more nervy than seeing your mate consistenetly nail fish when you dont, I know the feeling only too well. Ive learned in those times to get your mojo back, your confidence, and even your communication is a key. ie what you are saying can reinforce the problem as well.
Ive noticed my self and others naturally speed everything up, get abit too urgent when this sort of thing happens, and its agood thing to watch eaach other for those negative actions and help each other out. Works for us, I guess some may think this is mumbo jumbo, but I am convinced our mentality, language, emotions, transmit into everything we do and can produce subtle changes to the negative.
Not suggesting this is the issue with you Nagg, but it is a good part of the whole fishing equation. We have all seen blokes spit the dummy, sit down and sulk or at very least stop doing things with an excellent approach. Good discussion this.
Regards
Barraboy

geoffro1212
25-09-2008, 03:50 PM
Nailed it barraboy 100%

chewy01
25-09-2008, 04:35 PM
Chris,
imho there is a lot to be said with barra fishing in regards to pausing your lure,i know its only a small part of the equation but it is(or can be)very important on a given day.Iv done a lot of saltwater trolling for barra and in any area that is heavily fished if you do not twitch/work your rod vigourously you will not catch anywhere near the amount of fish.From experience id say about 5 to one,and i fully believe its not the twitch,its the pause as invariably the strike will come as soon as the lure stops floating upwards and is twitched forward.i think its an instinctive strike.Same principle for the bomber twitch.On its day it works.With my barra in the tank,minnows and shrimps can swim round some days so long as its a steady action,the shrimp give a flick and its gone.Maybe Mw was getting a nearly imperceptible pause somehow in his retrieve(maybe taking a swig of his beer :) ) I think its the same as working the tango.the longer the pause the harder the strike when you eventually twitch it. Iv got to say i found it a lot harder to fish the hsta this trip after using the slower shimano drums. I know its a small part,but the pAuse definately makes a difference in salt so i cant see why it would be different in the fresh.Maybe after the pause its easier to home in on the quicker harder vibrations??stop start??
chewy...

Awoonga
25-09-2008, 04:53 PM
Chris, Fishing with you and Adrian l could see straight away the difference...Its a nobrainer... But heres my problem..Seeing l now have my ABT Cap on... Tell you after the tour....ok ok.. a clue You and Whitey could use the same rods, reels line, lures. And he would catch more fish...Think about whats left !

NAGG
25-09-2008, 07:01 PM
Chris, Johnny and Twomanylures have pretty much explained everything technical...IMHO....whitey was on fire...confidence breeds confidence....you werent so 'on fire'....I bet you spent a lot of time wondering and thinking about what whitey was doing different!!!....If so, thats part of the problem too.....Thats a big tip for ABT too. A lot (myself included) spend more time looking and worrying about what others are doing different.

Steve

Hi Steve & Barraboy

No doubt that confidence breeds confidence ..... wont argue there!
Honestly ...... I didn't really start to think about it till the evening session on the second last day ( but the verbal battering I was getting - did get to me::) ) ....... up until that point of time - I did my thing ( mixed it up as usual)......
Last day ..... I went back to basics......... Got the fish on , but jumped them all ( even after double & triple striking to set the hooks)

Mental approach ........ is so important

Anyhow ...... its a good topic & I'm keen to hear opinions

Cheers

Chris

NAGG
25-09-2008, 07:17 PM
Chris, Fishing with you and Adrian l could see straight away the difference...Its a nobrainer... But heres my problem..Seeing l now have my ABT Cap on... Tell you after the tour....ok ok.. a clue You and Whitey could use the same rods, reels line, lures. And he would catch more fish...Think about whats left !

I'm no good at these things::) Help anyone:P

mikooh
25-09-2008, 07:25 PM
Great topic guys! some very valid points made here.
I must say that I dont have a huge amount of barra experience, however there are more than a few parellels drawn to fishing for cod down this way as well. I am very aware of the sub concious reaction to speed up your retrieve when times are tough. sometimes it gets to the point where every second cast is a waste of time because I am that anxious to register a bite that I rip the lure in and dont present it to the fish. With cod it is even more frustrating as in some circumstances we do know the fish by name- they generally stick to their snag for years and in local rivers we take great pride in fooling the same fish more than once.
When the fishing is realy tough I like to take a break for a few minutes and have a think about what is happening around me. To me five minutes of thinking is better than five minutes of wasted casts! I am also starting to favour low speed reels like the zillion crazy cranker and luna- they keep my retrieves slower even when I lose the plot!

Mick

TinarooTriumph
25-09-2008, 08:20 PM
Keep in mind that we basically fished the same lures for over 70% of the time.



G'day Chris!

Barra Fishermen do everything differently, yet in some ways things may tend to look the same. With all the info you have given us which you collected on your recent ventures, I think we can come to a reasonably simple conclusion that thats Barra Fishing for you! I really like what Dick said... the boot could easily be on the other foot (a.k.a yours) next time your up. Don't read too much into it, you could easily lose yourself.

One thing which really struck me with your post is what I quoted above. Personally, and like I said before, Barra fishermen who know their stuff do everything differently - but if there is one thing I DON'T do is use what my fishing companions are using Lure wise, unless it is absolutely killing the pig. I can only think of two or three occasions where I have actually tied on what my mate has on/vise versa for them also, and I make no lie about it that there has always been the one angler in those situations that seems to get the greater success. It comes down to very minor detail, what JM was going to allaborate on before. Off the top of my head, the last time I can remember this scenario happening was with Matt (BarraBoss) - fishing early morning at one of the grassy points at the Northern end of the Dam (Im sure you remember it NAGG... I think you lost like a 110+ or something there? HaHa!). Myself and Matt had fished that together a few times, myself a long time before I ever showed Matt it. On that particular morning the fish were feeding a little deeper then usual, and as per usual I had left my Plastics box at home so I only had a few Power Mullets etc with me. Matt was using a perfectly fine Power Mullet in Ghost, until I realised I had to tie something on fairly similar to interest those fish - the only thing I had that was capable of the job was a Power Mullet too! - same size, different Colour. We fished there for an hour and a bit, and from good memory Matt didn't register a strike (I remember this as thats rare for him) whilst I recieved 3 good strikes on flat out retrieves, and missed setting the hooks on another. Although it appeared we were doing the exact same thing, that minor detail was in my favour. Thats just one example (sorry for boring!).

By the sounds of it also, you and your mate Whitey were running into some good numbers of fish on your recent trips. If you were to of used different Lures during the course of the time fishing together, do you think the results would have panned out differently? I saw the numbers of fish landed, strikes raised etc (not bad numbers at all BTW!) but I can't help but think that if you threw something different at fish that have already shown interest in your mates Lure, that they would have smacked something different in their face.

Cheers mate. It is good to hear that you had a cracker trip. Are you still planning on doing the ABT Tour with Matt?

Theo

BR65
25-09-2008, 08:45 PM
Chris, pfffft to all the technical stuff mate, when Im being outfished I just resort to the old fashioned multiple swipes with the landing net at my mates fish, its either gone, or his lure is so caught up and tangled, he is out of the action for a good 10 minutes, problem solved.


JM raised some interesting thoughts on line and lure frequencey thru the water, especially as water is such a good "conducter", there are so many variables there it isnt funny, I can think of a dozen ways to change the "sound" of a lure thru the water straight off the top of my noodle. Lack of consistant time on the water is a barrier we have to overcome to fully explore that one though.
On those occassions I fish with some one else, we are constantly mixing it up, colour, style, retrieve, depth, all good in finding that "silver barra bullet".
I dunno, my first go to when I started reading this was retrieve speed, especially with two differant reels, then I was going to say sh*t happens, some times it goes that way, now Im really thinking..............

fish-n-dive
25-09-2008, 08:54 PM
After 7+ years fishing around Shady Camp, Coroborree and numerous other NT Barra locations and only ever catching catfish (aaarrrrrr) I think it is down to the luck of the draw (btw, I haven't won lotto either!!!) In the end, before we moved south, I just drove the boat and took pics of crocks........

NAGG
26-09-2008, 08:15 AM
G'day Chris!

Barra Fishermen do everything differently, yet in some ways things may tend to look the same. With all the info you have given us which you collected on your recent ventures, I think we can come to a reasonably simple conclusion that thats Barra Fishing for you! I really like what Dick said... the boot could easily be on the other foot (a.k.a yours) next time your up. Don't read too much into it, you could easily lose yourself.

One thing which really struck me with your post is what I quoted above. Personally, and like I said before, Barra fishermen who know their stuff do everything differently - but if there is one thing I DON'T do is use what my fishing companions are using Lure wise, unless it is absolutely killing the pig. I can only think of two or three occasions where I have actually tied on what my mate has on/vise versa for them also, and I make no lie about it that there has always been the one angler in those situations that seems to get the greater success. It comes down to very minor detail, what JM was going to allaborate on before. Off the top of my head, the last time I can remember this scenario happening was with Matt (BarraBoss) - fishing early morning at one of the grassy points at the Northern end of the Dam (Im sure you remember it NAGG... I think you lost like a 110+ or something there? HaHa!). Myself and Matt had fished that together a few times, myself a long time before I ever showed Matt it. On that particular morning the fish were feeding a little deeper then usual, and as per usual I had left my Plastics box at home so I only had a few Power Mullets etc with me. Matt was using a perfectly fine Power Mullet in Ghost, until I realised I had to tie something on fairly similar to interest those fish - the only thing I had that was capable of the job was a Power Mullet too! - same size, different Colour. We fished there for an hour and a bit, and from good memory Matt didn't register a strike (I remember this as thats rare for him) whilst I recieved 3 good strikes on flat out retrieves, and missed setting the hooks on another. Although it appeared we were doing the exact same thing, that minor detail was in my favour. Thats just one example (sorry for boring!).

By the sounds of it also, you and your mate Whitey were running into some good numbers of fish on your recent trips. If you were to of used different Lures during the course of the time fishing together, do you think the results would have panned out differently? I saw the numbers of fish landed, strikes raised etc (not bad numbers at all BTW!) but I can't help but think that if you threw something different at fish that have already shown interest in your mates Lure, that they would have smacked something different in their face.

Cheers mate. It is good to hear that you had a cracker trip. Are you still planning on doing the ABT Tour with Matt?

Theo

Hi Theo ..... Yeh mate Matt & I are doing the ABT ( I'm really looking forward to it)

On the lure thing ........ I mixed things up ( whitey pretty well adapted what I did well on at mondy ...... black & gold 130 slick & an evil minnow) ........ I too had black & gold on a set up! - Infact the only fish I landed during a quiet period was when I changed to a green grunter ....... The first time one was cast in 6 days:)
Anyhow ..... Resonance through the water may be the issue ( my technigue) ....... & I'll drop the 60lb twisted 10X ...... & use the 50 & 40lb twisted Nitline XTS leader ............. these did well for me

but as always your opinions are most appreciated ....... & I know i wont have a brain explosion & overcomplicate things!::)

Cheers

Chris

NAGG
26-09-2008, 08:34 AM
Chris, pfffft to all the technical stuff mate, when Im being outfished I just resort to the old fashioned multiple swipes with the landing net at my mates fish, its either gone, or his lure is so caught up and tangled, he is out of the action for a good 10 minutes, problem solved.


JM raised some interesting thoughts on line and lure frequencey thru the water, especially as water is such a good "conducter", there are so many variables there it isnt funny, I can think of a dozen ways to change the "sound" of a lure thru the water straight off the top of my noodle. Lack of consistant time on the water is a barrier we have to overcome to fully explore that one though.
On those occassions I fish with some one else, we are constantly mixing it up, colour, style, retrieve, depth, all good in finding that "silver barra bullet".
I dunno, my first go to when I started reading this was retrieve speed, especially with two differant reels, then I was going to say sh*t happens, some times it goes that way, now Im really thinking..............

Hi Brian ...... I tried the multiple swip thing ( GONE!) but in the end the success of the trip is also measured in boat results.

This is one of the few times , where I dont think "Sh*t happens" & hence the post ............. I'm not overly wound up about the result because I had overall good results on the trip .......... However because we were fishing out of a tethered / anchored boat , same plastics casting to a limited target area ........ something was clearly different (specially on the bite result) Compare this to when we were drifting on the leccy & casting to Awoongas points ........... I probably had as many strikes / more jump offs & landed as many fish ......... It was situation specific.

Actually I know the answer ......... I was using Banana boat sun block;D

Chris

Peter4
26-09-2008, 09:00 AM
........ I was using Banana boat sun block;D


The old banana myth raises its ugly head again.......

Keep thinking Chris, it had to be something else;)

Awoonga
26-09-2008, 11:44 AM
Hi Brian ...... I tried the multiple swip thing ( GONE!) but in the end the success of the trip is also measured in boat results.

This is one of the few times , where I dont think "Sh*t happens" & hence the post ............. I'm not overly wound up about the result because I had overall good results on the trip .......... However because we were fishing out of a tethered / anchored boat , same plastics casting to a limited target area ........ something was clearly different (specially on the bite result) Compare this to when we were drifting on the leccy & casting to Awoongas points ........... I probably had as many strikes / more jump offs & landed as many fish ......... It was situation specific.

Actually I know the answer ......... I was using Banana boat sun block;D

Chris And you know the real answer too..Chris...Just work on what l said All will be fine

NAGG
26-09-2008, 12:05 PM
And you know the real answer too..Chris...Just work on what l said All will be fine

& thank you for that insight ....... much appreciated coach:)

Chris

borisdog
27-09-2008, 10:24 AM
Barra , Fussy or not?

While I have virtually no experience fishing for Stew Pond Barra ;D , I do have plenty fishing for wild Barra.

Yes they can be very fussy but one thing I will say for them is there are very few fish that are more stupid. The amount of times you can sit a lure right in front of their face and not move it for 20 seconds while they eyeball it and decide to eat it on second number 21 is incredible. Man they're stupid. Great fun though.

Darryl

A_DIFF_PERSPECTIVE
27-09-2008, 12:00 PM
Darryl,
Throw up a land fenced enclosure, thousands of boats per year, millions of casts per year and each fish being hooked and annoyed in it's life time, or spooked hundreds of times per season by boaties and anglers and unfortunately we end up with a fish that is far from stupid. In wild untouched arenas or in lakes in their childhood, yea, they could be labelled as stupid. The shoe is on the other foot in 2008 in many of Qld's barra lakes with the challenge of landing just one barra every day of the year without fail being a big task to achieve. It is in the latter years that we all will learn more on exactly what barramundi will fall for, rather than the stupidity/curiosity helping us out on the many occassions over the many years. Techniques that caught many fish for anglers in the last ten years often go fishless today.
Cheers,
Johnny

Barraboy7
27-09-2008, 12:04 PM
Boris your comment "stew" pond barra only reinforces your second reality, you have "virtually no experience fishing for them". If barra were indeed as stupid as you say, then everyone would clean up all the time. This post actually is exploring the tecniques employed catching an incredible fish, with small variations causing countless anglers to miss out after days of casting for one one of these WILD beauties! If you think they are "domestic" you are sadly mistaken.
Ive caught heaps of barra too in rivers and lagoons and estuaries. They are an awesome fish to catch from any environment, its just that these ones are real mega beasts.

Barraboy7

chewy01
27-09-2008, 12:37 PM
The thing i aspire to is to fish for barra every day of the year..

borisdog
27-09-2008, 02:01 PM
People don't get me wrong, I'd be out there in the Lakes every chance I got if I lived anywhere near one - I'm just "taking the urine".

I still maintain they're stupid. I didn't say they were suicidal. Which is why people don't clean up every day.

While I do appreciate that posters are exploring the different techniques etc I just gave my opinion on the thread's title question.

They're an iconic fish that get a whole lot of exposure in every form of media imaginable, some of it true and some of it tripe. I love them and always will but no-one will ever change my opinion of how stupid they can be, and believe me I've caught plenty of them.

It's good to read the techniques that are working for you guys, as an interesting side note I'll be going down to Dingo Beach from Tues-Fri and will probably go for a fish at Faust while I'm there.

Darryl

Awoonga
27-09-2008, 02:39 PM
The thing i aspire to is to fish for barra every day of the year.. Chewy ... carefull what you wish for.....

NAGG
27-09-2008, 02:50 PM
Well said BB & Johnny :)

Daryl ......... some of what you said is valid ...... but as for stew pond barra being stupid ......... Well! Me think not!
I put up this thread for a couple of reasons ..... with the main one being why old mate doing not much different to me attracted the interest of these stew pond barra & I hardly rated a look in:( I fish many days a year lurecasting for Bream ( often well regarded for their wiliness) & fly for wild stream trout several times a year .......... Impoundment barra rate very well indeed , along with keeping me awake at night::)
Many many many x 1000s of fishing hours per year are spent chasing these fish ....... for Doughnut results!!!!!! CANT BE THAT EASY!!!!

Chris

2manylures
27-09-2008, 08:07 PM
Many many many x 1000s of fishing hours per year are spent chasing these fish ....... for Doughnut results!!!!!! CANT BE THAT EASY!!!!

Chris


Maybe a few hundred hours considering there's less than 9,000hrs a yr.

Could also be your smell. Some people are too "clean" when they go fishing. {nothing personal}

2manylures
27-09-2008, 08:26 PM
Many many many x 1000s of fishing hours per year are spent chasing these fish ....... for Doughnut results!!!!!! CANT BE THAT EASY!!!!

Chris


Maybe a few hundred hours considering there's less than 9,000hrs a yr, taking everything else life throws at us into considertion.

Could also be your smell. Some people are too "clean" when they go fishing. {nothing personal}

As for Barra being fussy, I honestly believe all fish are fussy which explains the term many use "fish off the chew or shut down"

Like us they vary their diet which explains another post putting a lure 2" from a fishes mouth. It wasn't interested as it wasn't on the menu of the day. I've seen this with Trout, Carp, Murray Coid, Yellowbelly and many saltwater species.

If the menu of the day was put in front of any fish then you would clean up. It's the astute anglers that catch every time they go out whether it be trout, impoundment species or saltwater, makes no difference. If we as anglers understand a particular fishes behaviour & diet then we have a much better chance of catching them.

I don't fish for Bass, yet have heard of many anglers say they find them on the sounder but cant catch them. This is usually in colder weather when fish are from what I gather are sitting in deep water in the thermoclyne. I'm yet to hear of any Bass angler using downriggers & it has me buggered why not but these same people with all the other technology simply say they're shut down.

I say if you aren't catching your targetted species you're doing something wrong & don't understand them well enough. Not your fault but fish still have to eat to survive.

Something to think about.:o

NAGG
28-09-2008, 07:55 AM
Maybe a few hundred hours considering there's less than 9,000hrs a yr.

Could also be your smell. Some people are too "clean" when they go fishing. {nothing personal}

Thats fishing hours / person X how many people fish impoundments :) As I said many , many , many x 1000s:P eg My crew & I put in around 170 fishing hours last week at Mondy & Awoonga.

cheers

Chris

BR65
28-09-2008, 08:28 AM
Chris, Im going with the smell theory mate, its all about you being a New South Welshman, you'll be fine once you move up here;)


On a more practical note, I had a bit of a squiz at your pics in the Awoonga report.
Now, lets just say I knew someone who was thinking about haveing a fish up there, has been there before for limited success, but has caught the odd barra elsewhere, we will call him, say "Mr B";)
Mr B would like to start a thread entitled "Awoonga Help Needed", but he is a shy, retireing character, and doesnt feel like reading the 38 posts that will all start with "mate, do a search....."
If Mr B was to drop on the water at the ramp, would he head up the main basin to find some of those nice shallow, weed fringed banks he hears so much about, or would he turn left, run down past the dam wall and keep going in that direction??
He doesnt want the GPS mark, no fun in "finding" some one elses fishy spot that way, just a heads up on which way to point the bow of the quinny, I mean MR B's boat::)

SeekingBarradise
28-09-2008, 08:44 PM
Hi there Nagg mate i hope to catchup with you on your next trip.

2manylures: People have been using downriggers for bass for a while now mate and other deeper techniques. I'm sure i've seen a thread or 2 on sweetwater by Dale & Fitzy regarding downrigging. Check out that site and have a good read as those 2 are bass fishing nuts. There are also a few handy bass fisho's on here as well. Moggy is having a great season on bass, he might add a bit more to this thread if he's around. Deepwater bass have been targeted for over a decade now on SEQ dams.

When you said: "I say if you aren't catching your targetted species you're doing something wrong & don't understand them well enough. Not your fault but fish still have to eat to survive."


Not a lot of information is out on just how long some freshwater fish can go without eating. After chatting with a few guides in the barra scene, maybe barra might just be able to spend a bit of time without eating if the conditions push them in that direction. There is some anecdotal evidence from guys who had barra as pets in tanks not eating for a couple of weeks. There are a few reports of tank barra only eating a few time in several months, but i can't confirm them mate. Maybe a few other ausfisho's can shed some light on barra not eating for a long time.

Food for thought. I saw about 44 boats in a comp last year average 64 hours a barra and some of the entrants have fished 1000 days for those impoundment critters. It was pretty hard fishing for most of us mate bloody hell they made us work. Scotty on here ended up winning that comp with 2 fish off memory, well done. My point is that there were some very good fisho's at that comp that went fishless.

I don't believe they all have to eat everyday, especially on the toughest of days. However even on these hard days you could still find one area on a dam where fish were willing (acitve). This happened to us on one of our winter trips where i ended up catching a couple of barra when way better anglers than myself didn't.

Lake Barra also have large fat reserves to rely on when needed. I've also seen days when even the best fisho's rack their brains trying to outsmart team Impoundment Barramundi. More often than not they run out a pretty good team on our lakes. I do agree that the more you know the better we can all get. That's the fun part mate, it means we need to plan more trips!!! Working together with mates from here also helps the learning curve.

Thanks for posting, I hope to share a yarn on a barra dam one day mate.
Cheers Lyndon.

SeekingBarradise
28-09-2008, 08:46 PM
Sorry i posted it twice - just deleted the second one. cheers lyndon.:)

Steve B
28-09-2008, 09:14 PM
Hi there Nagg mate i hope to catchup with you on your next trip.

2manylures: People have been using downriggers for bass for a while now mate and other deeper techniques. I'm sure i've seen a thread or 2 on sweetwater by Dale & Fitzy regarding downrigging. Check out that site and have a good read as those 2 are bass fishing nuts. There are also a few handy bass fisho's on here as well. Moggy is having a great season on bass, he might add a bit more to this thread if he's around. Deepwater bass have been targeted for over a decade now on SEQ dams.

When you said: "I say if you aren't catching your targetted species you're doing something wrong & don't understand them well enough. Not your fault but fish still have to eat to survive."


Not a lot of information is out on just how long some freshwater fish can go without eating. After chatting with a few guides in the barra scene, maybe barra might just be able to spend a bit of time without eating if the conditions push them in that direction. There is some anecdotal evidence from guys who had barra as pets in tanks not eating for a couple of weeks. There are a few reports of tank barra only eating a few time in several months, but i can't confirm them mate. Maybe a few other ausfisho's can shed some light on barra not eating for a long time.

Food for thought. I saw about 44 boats in a comp last year average 64 hours a barra and some of the entrants have fished 1000 days for those impoundment critters. It was pretty hard fishing for most of us mate bloody hell they made us work. Scotty on here ended up winning that comp with 2 fish off memory, well done. My point is that there were some very good fisho's at that comp that went fishless.

I don't believe they all have to eat everyday, especially on the toughest of days. However even on these hard days you could still find one area on a dam where fish were willing (acitve). This happened to us on one of our winter trips where i ended up catching a couple of barra when way better anglers than myself didn't.

Lake Barra also have large fat reserves to rely on when needed. I've also seen days when even the best fisho's rack their brains trying to outsmart team Impoundment Barramundi. More often than not they run out a pretty good team on our lakes. I do agree that the more you know the better we can all get. That's the fun part mate, it means we need to plan more trips!!! Working together with mates from here also helps the learning curve.

Thanks for posting, I hope to share a yarn on a barra dam one day mate.
Cheers Lyndon.

Lyndon, Adding to your great post, I put a 94cm barra in the MASA viewing tanks last year (sept 17) he has eaten a total of 2 small sleepy cod and a small cattie in the last year!!! thats it!! he is still alive and in relatively good condition. Obviously condtions are significantly different...and he hasnt grown any either as he would in the wild. but It sort of suggests they can, as you said, survive without eating if they have too. I am actually going to try and have him released soon...its not fair on the poor bugger!! :-[

cheers steve

chewy01
28-09-2008, 09:31 PM
Hey steve, what are the chances of getting a few small ones put in there,they feed well, an are really active,and good to look at.i neverseen the big pair in there move,they look like me.... just in tired..
chewy...

Dick Pasfield
29-09-2008, 12:08 AM
Yes they can be very fussy but one thing I will say for them is there are very few fish that are more stupid. The amount of times you can sit a lure right in front of their face and not move it for 20 seconds while they eyeball it and decide to eat it on second number 21 is incredible. Man they're stupid. Great fun though.

Darryl


Don't understand why this makes anything stupid????

'Stupid' animals don't get to breed (unlike people) because they're prone to get eaten at an early age (stupid meaning not learning from yours or someone's mistake)

Instinctive reactions are just that and can get you into trouble as easily as they can get you out of trouble.

Awoonga
29-09-2008, 07:09 AM
Chris, Im going with the smell theory mate, its all about you being a New South Welshman, you'll be fine once you move up here;)


On a more practical note, I had a bit of a squiz at your pics in the Awoonga report.
Now, lets just say I knew someone who was thinking about haveing a fish up there, has been there before for limited success, but has caught the odd barra elsewhere, we will call him, say "Mr B";)
Mr B would like to start a thread entitled "Awoonga Help Needed", but he is a shy, retireing character, and doesnt feel like reading the 38 posts that will all start with "mate, do a search....."
If Mr B was to drop on the water at the ramp, would he head up the main basin to find some of those nice shallow, weed fringed banks he hears so much about, or would he turn left, run down past the dam wall and keep going in that direction??
He doesnt want the GPS mark, no fun in "finding" some one elses fishy spot that way, just a heads up on which way to point the bow of the quinny, I mean MR B's boat::) Mr B...See if this is any help...On the water at 1230...Lots of boats .... JM and l had a chat before we put in and he said the next hour should be good...... l went about 300 meters up the dam fished a point ...caught fish continued to do so untill a dillbrain went between me and the point...Next continued going towards Dingo island found another point..Same Same...untill this time l was joined by two other boats that had seen me catch fish... They just drove up...and started fishing....no problem with that except in doing so they made so much noise the bite shutdown...So l continued on past Dingo towards Bathtub bay ...Fished the bay caught fish....My point is Mr B Fish are just about everywhere at the moment...points, bays ...My tips...Warmer water..Wind blowing onto the shore... Stealth is the key...Story time yesterday four guys fishing a point....very windy... they had the right idea but there method was flawed. They where anchored but it woundnt hold so the just kept using the motor...l was 30 meters away and the more l caught fish the more frustated they would become..In the end l went over and told them they boat was overloaded LOL..I told one of them to jump into my boat...They just about had a fight as to who was going with me....it was quite funny....We went back to fishing 30 meters away....and caught fish..So whats the magic word..??

borisdog
29-09-2008, 07:39 AM
Don't understand why this makes anything stupid????

'Stupid' animals don't get to breed (unlike people) because they're prone to get eaten at an early age (stupid meaning not learning from yours or someone's mistake)

Instinctive reactions are just that and can get you into trouble as easily as they can get you out of trouble.



Dick, I said "There are few fish more stupid". I stand by that. The mythology of Barra is so strong that they're held up by lots of people to be many things they're not. Mostly by people who fish for them on their once a year trip to wherever and I know you don't fall into that category being a KNX man.

And I reckon they're not smart. But, I repeat, I still love them.

Darryl

A_DIFF_PERSPECTIVE
29-09-2008, 07:59 AM
Awoonga barramundi certainly apply more instinctive and thorough thought processes than any other barra I have fished for. It is an art to boat ten fish per daytime session , 2008, in a lake stocked with over 3 million fingerlings. I can catch salties with triple the ease; lake barra require much more angler intuition, intervention and creativity to trick a cunning fish that has derived to this point from years of interaction with humans.
I say they are smart, not smart as in to write a book or to bank their money, but smart as in the way in which the barra reads the situation, and adresses the confrontation. Most fish don't strike, they know what's what. It seems even the best anglers on lakes work their butts off to consistently catch metre fish. I have heard the words from many locals over the years that all the metre fish have been caught out, yet mysteriously in months that forthcome those same blokes eventually 'tune in' to what it is that is required to catch an Awoonga metery and the smiles and hapiness returns until............................... the fish changes once again. I don't class myself as the world's smartest person, but I certainly stress my brain each year keeping up with a wisened fish.
Johnny

A_DIFF_PERSPECTIVE
29-09-2008, 08:03 AM
I think some words from my FISHAWOONGA DVD stated that "the lake scene will never be fully understood because it will forever be under gradual evolution"...............or words close to that affect.
Cheers
JM

Steve B
29-09-2008, 08:38 AM
Hey steve, what are the chances of getting a few small ones put in there,they feed well, an are really active,and good to look at.i neverseen the big pair in there move,they look like me.... just in tired..
chewy...

Chewy, yeah thats the plan....only problem is (and this is the hard part) catching smaller fish! (50-70cm) they seem to be quite elusive around these parts. As soon as I get one, I will change it over. Agreed, the little ones react better to the tank enviroment.

steve

Dick, Very true mate.

Dick Pasfield
29-09-2008, 11:05 AM
Dick, I said "There are few fish more stupid". I stand by that. The mythology of Barra is so strong that they're held up by lots of people to be many things they're not.
Darryl, I think this is a terminology issue, same word different meanings to different people, you get that, we may have to agree to disagree;).

Having said that, and in keeping with the thread of what makes barras hard or easy to catch, certainly environmental constraints are a big factor.

I’ve seen a sooty track a lure in mid flight and move to intercept it at its touchdown point. Smart or dumb? 99 times out of a 100 it would have been a bug crashlanding, the sooty got there with in front of half a dozen archer fish, seemed a smart move to me, though people could consider it a dumb thing to do.

You can sit on one snag and pull in up to 10 fingermark before they wake up, maybe dumb but when you see the clouds of fish that follow the first couple up you come to realise food is a bit of a premium down there.

Pods of sailfish swimming up to a boat dragging a heap of teasers, why on earth if you were a sailfish would you want and go and do that!!!???? Once again they have to do an awful lot of eating to survive.

So is a barramundi more intelligent than these other species of fish and if so how? It sounds like impoundment barra are much the same as resident barra around towns in a wild river situation, they become used to fishing pressure and take that into consideration when feeding, the bigger fish have the greater experience and therefore are more cautious.

My personal gauge of fish smarts is put them into a situation where they are under stress and see how they react. You do that every time you hook one. What pleases me about barras is their different strategies at different stages of the fight and the fact they have more than one strategy (maybe an opportunity for another thread), they appear to be able to think on the run and when something is not working go to the next plan, although still somewhat predictable it’s far better then muscling up to a fish that only knows one way.



To me that makes them smart enough to quickly adapt to a given situation and become cautious. However, a hungry belly (something we've all but forgotten about) is a major override to caution.

borisdog
29-09-2008, 03:41 PM
Yes Dick I think it's semantics. It's always difficult to hold a reasoned conversation via keyboard. This discussion needs several cold beers and a boat and some serious field research.

I agree with what you're saying re the things you've observed. Jungle Perch are another that will track things in flight, I'd class that as well adapted to their environment and food sources.

I fish around 10-20 hours a week, all of it lure casting. Jacks and Barra make up 90% of my catch, the difference between the species is obvious to all but so is the difference in "smarts".

Who cares as long as they're still around.

Darryl

BR65
29-09-2008, 06:32 PM
Mr B...See if this is any help...On the water at 1230...Lots of boats .... JM and l had a chat before we put in and he said the next hour should be good...... l went about 300 meters up the dam fished a point ...caught fish continued to do so untill a dillbrain went between me and the point...Next continued going towards Dingo island found another point..Same Same...untill this time l was joined by two other boats that had seen me catch fish... They just drove up...and started fishing....no problem with that except in doing so they made so much noise the bite shutdown...So l continued on past Dingo towards Bathtub bay ...Fished the bay caught fish....My point is Mr B Fish are just about everywhere at the moment...points, bays ...My tips...Warmer water..Wind blowing onto the shore... Stealth is the key...Story time yesterday four guys fishing a point....very windy... they had the right idea but there method was flawed. They where anchored but it woundnt hold so the just kept using the motor...l was 30 meters away and the more l caught fish the more frustated they would become..In the end l went over and told them they boat was overloaded LOL..I told one of them to jump into my boat...They just about had a fight as to who was going with me....it was quite funny....We went back to fishing 30 meters away....and caught fish..So whats the magic word..??


Thanks Trev, I will pass that onto "Mr B', hopefully he is smart enough to figure out the magic word starts with a big Shhh.....

A_DIFF_PERSPECTIVE
30-09-2008, 07:40 AM
Nagg,
After the responses, it shows how much is involved in staying focused and getting results in your favour. When I have two charter clients fishing, one usually outfishes the other. Firstly, different lures are tried to find the best option. Usually, one angler catches one or two fish before the other, and a bit of time elapses before I discover what lure swap needs to be undertaken. By this stage, one angler is pumped, the other is edgey. This usually carries on, as the confident angler often gets a third fish before the other fisher gets the first. Our minds are powerful tools.
Secondly, once we lay all variables together, fish confidently, fish smartly, swap rods with friends and so on, we discover how useless some outfits really are. Don't overlook the fact on this very topic, as I have done charters where a female client's own rod landed nothing in 4.5 hrs whilst I watched barra feed all around us. I was stumped as to why it was happening, but when I clicked as to what was occuring, we swapped her rod for one of mine laying idle on deck and the first two casts produced two fish over a metre and she hooked 7 more in the next hour. I have dozens of stories like this, and it would blow your mind. I have even fished with bad combos to try to make the end results better but fail to even come close to matching the results of a well tuned rod, reel, lure, line and so on.
But, here it gets deeper,,,,,,,,,,,,,the next time you fish a lake, the conditions may just change enough to make a different combo of lure, line, rod and reel produce better than the next. I've many examples written in my advanced book to keep you occupied and thinking. Ever wondered why some anglers prefer a different lure sized soft lure like a 110mm lure versus a 140mm lure, or vice versa? Ever wondered why anglers have favourite rods for certain jobs? I also ask myself why I use the rods and lines on my boat, and why not something else,,,,,,,,answer- because they work so well. I have a few rods downstairs leaning on the wall, doing nothing, because they are hopeless for lake lure fishing.
Wierd, but true.

JM

NAGG
30-09-2008, 08:02 AM
Nagg,
After the responses, it shows how much is involved in staying focused and getting results in your favour. When I have two charter clients fishing, one usually outfishes the other. Firstly, different lures are tried to find the best option. Usually, one angler catches one or two fish before the other, and a bit of time elapses before I discover what lure swap needs to be undertaken. By this stage, one angler is pumped, the other is edgey. This usually carries on, as the confident angler often gets a third fish before the other fisher gets the first. Our minds are powerful tools.
Secondly, once we lay all variables together, fish confidently, fish smartly, swap rods with friends and so on, we discover how useless some outfits really are. Don't overlook the fact on this very topic, as I have done charters where a female client's own rod landed nothing in 4.5 hrs whilst I watched barra feed all around us. I was stumped as to why it was happening, but when I clicked as to what was occuring, we swapped her rod for one of mine laying idle on deck and the first two casts produced two fish over a metre and she hooked 7 more in the next hour. I have dozens of stories like this, and it would blow your mind. I have even fished with bad combos to try to make the end results better but fail to even come close to matching the results of a well tuned rod, reel, lure, line and so on.
But, here it gets deeper,,,,,,,,,,,,,the next time you fish a lake, the conditions may just change enough to make a different combo of lure, line, rod and reel produce better than the next. I've many examples written in my advanced book to keep you occupied and thinking. Ever wondered why some anglers prefer a different lure sized soft lure like a 110mm lure versus a 140mm lure, or vice versa? Ever wondered why anglers have favourite rods for certain jobs? I also ask myself why I use the rods and lines on my boat, and why not something else,,,,,,,,answer- because they work so well. I have a few rods downstairs leaning on the wall, doing nothing, because they are hopeless for lake lure fishing.
Wierd, but true.

JM

Johnny ...... What you have said just cannot be dismissed & I too tie certain lures onto certain combos ( usually I fish 3).......... In basic terms , If I can feel the lure / plastic working through the rod tip ........ I feel I'm half way there.
I also know that I've downsized line diameter to fish plastics ....... better action & feel obtained!
Yes ...... there could be many variables between what OLD MATE was doing & myself ............ But hey that's impoundment fishing & its from these experiences that we learn & develop:)

Cheers

Chris