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Dick Pasfield
31-08-2008, 11:46 AM
That got you ;D

Lures was what I was talking about and pose the question because after several years of stocking it appears you're starting to dredge some big fish from those dams(their names escape me just for the moment after all they're not mentioned here all that very much;))

I know there are exceptions but you can always associate big fish with big lures, how often for example does a bigger then average sooty take a barra lure? Maybe not often enough to use six inch lures to fish for them but sometimes I do wonder.

For barra I go as big as 160mm classics and 150mm scorpions. 135mm roostas and those large Bills bugs are the largest surface lures I use but have hurled a 195 roosta at barra once or twice just to see.

For Sootys I'll happily go as large as 75mm. In fact make it a rule not to use under 50mm as they're too hard to get out when they swallow them whole.

Are you finding a correlation with big lure big fish? If so what is the limit of been too big it terms of fish selection casting etc?

2manylures
31-08-2008, 01:03 PM
When small fish with large mouths take lures their own length I don’t think you can put an actual size on them.
A metre Barra, Murray Cod, Mulloway etc would have no difficulty taking 3lb or 4lb fish & larger, making a 160mm lures a light snack.
Very few luremakers actually make lures the size proportionate to what many species will realistically take.
I personally look at the make-up of targeted species & take into consideration mouth size. If it will fit they’ll try & eat it.
Selecting lures to suit can be from tiny to enormous.
Is there such a thing as too big for larger species? What natural prey would an 8ft yellowfin or 12ft marlin eat?
Just my thoughts.

warrior
31-08-2008, 06:36 PM
we landed a barra this year from awoonga that had another barra in it that wentjust under 300mm barra have an enormous mouths as we know but even they amaze me as how they can fit these size fish in their mouths and also swallow them.

BR65
31-08-2008, 07:04 PM
spose it comes down to the practicality of working an oversized lure Dick, I can only imagine the pop eye arm I would develop from casting a HB the size of some of the natural tucker those big girls consume.
On the other end of the scale, Ive caught 90cm+ fish on a 10cm lure, make you wonder why the fish would bother eating it in the energy used vs energy gained equation, that might be more aggression than hunger though?
The boney in the pic here abouts was spat out by a mid size fish free jumping in a little creek (Nath - Frustrating Bay) not so long ago, fair lump of a baitfish, notice the missing scales. It was just kicking feebly on the water surface when I leccyed over and netted it for a pic

Dunks
01-09-2008, 12:51 AM
I have had great success on Wivenhoe this year trolling lures up to 120mm for big bass up to 54cm. Easily something that you would normally throw at Barra in Awoonga and Monduran.

NAGG
01-09-2008, 12:55 PM
I'm not sure if big is always best
I'm a bit of a fan of matching the hatch .......
If I see smaller bonies in abundance ... I'll go that size & profile
If I see lots of Gars ..... then that's the profile

While not barra related ..... I've seen kingfish & Yellowfin tuna ignore a large gourmet slimy mackerel ........ & take the usually less appealing & smaller yakka

As we know ...... all fish will eat something small ....... specially when it is dragged past their nose
I wonder if the bigger lures are hit more often out of pure aggression & territorial behavior :-/

Ahhh just love this stuff ....... some much to consider & learn

Chris

Dick Pasfield
02-09-2008, 12:04 AM
Yes I guess there are some practical restrictions to presenting over sized lures with smallish rods. I have an old 7 foot ugly stik with a 750SS mounted to it that can chuck a good sized popper a mile and has claimed a number of big barra, long rods are good in some instances.

If we changed the method of delivery bigger lures may be more practical to use. Look at the size of lures trolled or those knife jigs they use for jigging up sambos off Perth.

Big lures will not always or automatically mean big fish but I believe there's a definite correlation. I'll be in Broome next week and am toying with the idea of picking up a laser pro 190 and seeing what damage I can do with one of those.

rod harrison
02-09-2008, 04:29 AM
The big lure thing works fine with greenfish.
Those Rod McKenzie uses, and it's highly unlikely anyone past, present or to come, will catch the same amount of keg sized cod - are the size of toy submarines.

The problem with applying all that to barra is that the bigger the lure, the more leverage a hooked fish gets and a higher percentage wrench free. Penetration is another issue.
Trebles anywhere over 2/0 have a habit of not anchoring securely. Again, it's the leverage thing. Big hooks partially in are more likely to spring than a smaller gauge buried to the hilt. An equation of diminishing returns applies to penetration coefficients.

vet
02-09-2008, 08:50 AM
I have to agree with you Dick, bigger lures generally catch bigger fish. The good thing is that even small 90cm models will eat the bigger lures too so you don't miss out on anything by trying bigger lures. I generally use lures over 130mm long through to 160mm but the killalure jewie may be bigger and I've caught numerous big fish on this. cheers scott

2manylures
02-09-2008, 09:57 AM
The big lure thing works fine with greenfish.
Those Rod McKenzie uses, and it's highly unlikely anyone past, present or to come, will catch the same amount of keg sized cod - are the size of toy submarines.

The problem with applying all that to barra is that the bigger the lure, the more leverage a hooked fish gets and a higher percentage wrench free. Penetration is another issue.
Trebles anywhere over 2/0 have a habit of not anchoring securely. Again, it's the leverage thing. Big hooks partially in are more likely to spring than a smaller gauge buried to the hilt. An equation of diminishing returns applies to penetration coefficients.

I along with a few close fishing friends took a leaf out of Canadian Salmon anglers books yrs back & opted for single hooks on various sized lures & especially super sized. Many are a little hesitant about single hooks re hook up rates but in many cases they perform much better than trebles.

It may also explain why the boys at Custom Crafted opted for doubles on there larger lures.;D

Jumping fish & to a lessor degree fast running species nothing but mono all the way through gives an extra edge over no stretch line when you have enough pressure for stretch to come into play.

A_DIFF_PERSPECTIVE
03-09-2008, 08:45 AM
Dick,
There may be a correlation with lure size but there certainly is a technique that will poduce more bigger barra in lakes than any other. My future in depth book will highlight that trend. It is something I have noticed over a fifteen year period from salt to fresh. In the lakes, lure size is critical in conditions where fish become fickle and on edge with prevailing weather conditions. Super small lures can bring a 120cm fish undone when water temps and weather conditions hover around levels that mess with constant metabolisms. When weather conditions vastly improve and barra decide that it is time to eat like mad and consume anything that moves while the going is good, bigger food items recieve more interest. In freshwater lakes we have landed barra on the 25cm Nilsmaster invincible, which is a very heavy set lure. I'm sure you know it. It features in the FISHAWOONGA DVD. In the salt water, the same lure produces very big fish, quite simply because food in the salt is not always easy to come by and salt barra love big food items. In lakes, smaller food items are most common and there is a boundary where prefered food item size is reduced within a specific choice range which is somewhat related to natural selection that best serves the fish at the time.
A trend with bigger lures for bigger fish in lakes, on a whole , I believe, 'no', but at select times, 'yes'.
Cheers,
Johnny

Dick Pasfield
03-09-2008, 11:29 PM
In the salt water, the same lure produces very big fish, quite simply because food in the salt is not always easy to come by and salt barra love big food items. In lakes, smaller food items are most common and there is a boundary where preferred food item size is reduced within a specific choice range which is somewhat related to natural selection that best serves the fish at the time.
A trend with bigger lures for bigger fish in lakes, on a whole , I believe, 'no', but at select times, 'yes'.

Thanks for that perspective Johnny. I'd have to say that both saltwater and freshwater river fish, at least here prefer big to small more often than not.

Incidentally a study on Kimberley freshwater barra showed the main food source to be bony bream, although I've seen them eat just about any fish including big catties. On catties Ive seen barras free jumping to get rid of one that had impaled itself in the barra's mouth (ouch!!)

A_DIFF_PERSPECTIVE
04-09-2008, 07:42 AM
Dick,
Cheers. From past study documents, many fish species including barramundi will prey on a more profitable (energy gain versus energy expenditure) type and size of food if in abundance, yet will exploit a vaiety of dietary supplements in areas with mixed food offerings with less concentration of numbers of any one size. Running river and salty sea versus land locked lake are usually two different worlds. The salty will eat massive food items; like you say, catfish go missing in action, so too do small sharks, flathead and so on. I have live baited with flathead for barra as well as using medium sized milk fish among other fish and crab species. In our lakes in Qld, there are a number of medium sized species that exist. In Awoonga, Bully mullet(sea mullet) exist up to several kilos. When the mullet were small, like 6-8 inches long (many years ago), the barra would hunt them down on the flats, but now it is very rare to see a mature sized bully mullet being hunted by barramundi. In the salt, these big mullet would be my first selection for live bait, but in the lake scene they would be my last.
The spikey catfish being jammed in the throat or mouth of the barra is similar to how moderate sized boney bream get stuck as well. Their underside towards their throat is like a saw blade, hard and boney. Free jumping barra in salt or fresh is a sight to see.
If I wanted and eighty or ninety pounder from the salt, I'd spend my hours casting a 25-30 cm lure for certain, but with a few sprays from smaller offerings just in case. In the lake, on average, I'd be using a moderate sized lure.
Regards,
Johnny

rod harrison
04-09-2008, 08:46 AM
Results from biologist (electro fishing) sampling of stocked lakes from Tinaroo to Monduran suggest a 70mm bony bream as the most common food fish consumed by stocked barra, followed by gar. Us mere fisherfolk need to regard that as just a guide. Catfish, spangled perch, mouth almighty and banded grunter are also on the menu...and this tends to confirm the opportunistic nature of barra, lake or free range.

There is, however, a huge connection between big baits and big barra. A two pound live mullet around a tide change (the first of the run-in) is one of the most certain ways to hook the biggest barra on the patch....along with sharks and everything else there that has a big mouth.

My previous comments were (and still are) biased not so much as lure size being a strike trigger but the problems that arise in making a big lure stick long enough to get a lip grip.

black_sheep
04-09-2008, 09:47 AM
When I go offshore fishing, I'm a firm believer of big baits catch big fish and proven it on many occassions but as many of you have already pointed out, impoundment barra don't have to travel too far or work too hard to find a feed. These dams are chocker full of baitfish compared to the rivers and creeks.

There's also a guy that fishes Tinaroo and regularly catches monster barra - his favourite lure is a Reidy's 'Llittle Lucifer' which wouldn't be much bigger than 5cms. Another mates favourite trolling lure at Faust is a 190 Laser Pro.

One knowledgeable fishing guide recently mentioned the 'digestive' stage of barra can also influence their appetite. The analogy he used was "when you at the pub having a beer, you may not necessarily feel like a huge steak and chips but if someone places a bowl of nuts in front of you, you gladly snack on them...".


IMHO, I think lure presentation is priority. Big lures can be difficult to work.

Dick Pasfield
04-09-2008, 07:55 PM
Thanks for that info everyone, interesting how environmental factors have shaped different habits in dam fish and river fish.