Giving Yamaha The Flick

[snelly1971]

After reading many posts on here regarding Etects, Optimaxes ect, I still wasnt convinced that any of these Motors would match up to Yamaha`s outstanding reliability, Parts Back up, and in General, Proven recreationally, and more Importantly Commercial proven Engine.
Yamaha OB here would out number there competitors 10 to 1, and for good reasons.
1. The Dealers were always helpful, and knew there product.
2.Proven engines, especially the Enduro`s, and the 115/130 2 bangers.
3.Great sales / spare parts back up, second to none.
4.Commercially proven Engines.


Now after taking this all in, I have noticed over the pasr 12 months or so, a changing of the guard. More Suzukis are making there way on to the back of commercial Boats, especially Ab boats. Tasmanian Police have changed to Mercury Optimaxes, and with which I am hearing good reports. There are also alot more Etects getting about, with which I am still slightly not quite sold on as yet, But who know , I may own a couple in the future.

Now to My Gripe.........

I have been Yamaha through and through for many years, owning several different sizes, from 20 hp to 200 hp 2 strokes, to my more modern 115 4 Bangers.
I have had some small, but annoying troubles with one of my motors for the past 2 months. i have had the local Yammie guy around several times to fix it, but to no avail....Its still bloody not right. If I was just a normal Rec fisherman, No problem, But now because its my way of putting food on the table, then it makes me rather shitty.
Our local Guy is quite good, but he has asked another Dealer, who he has been buying off for 25 years to allow him to borrow there ( 1 of many) Yamaha Diagnostic software and cable, so he can hook up via a laptop to diagnose my problem.But we are still waiting....Seems they are just too busy, with 1 of there much bigger customers. Now, I have heard several stories over the past 12 months , similar to mine, Maybe Yamaha is just too big here in Tassie...Just Blow the little operator....He doesnt buy 100 OB each year!!!
There have also been 2 Yamaha 225 4 Strokes here locally that have Shit themselves , by eating through the water jackets from the inside out....Both between 1000-1100 Hrs, Both on the same Boat, and this is not due to the annodes not being changed, The first time it happened, Yamahas comment was. Gee , that has never happened before.....$10 K later.....and now another has had the same fate.....???????........

So I have decided to Give Yammie the Flick......My first choice was going to be Suzuki 175 4 bangers, but now I must admit, I really like twin 200 Mercury Optimaxes,.

I would like other Ausfishers comments on there Choice, and problems they have had with any particular Motors. I am not starting this Post to Bash Yamaha or any other manufacturer , Just to express my disappointment I have with them, especially after being such a loyal customer.........


Cheers Mick

[MyEscape]

Mick,

It's a dealer thing really. Regardless of the brand of motor. Always buy where you are guaranteed of good backup service, a dealer that will stand up to the manufacturer on your behalf.

Having said that, I've currently got a Yamaha (yes it's 4 months old so I should have any problems) and couldn't be happier with it. It's my 3 Yamaha from the same dealer in Mackay and my 4th outboard.

Actually I've just completed a customer survey for the new Yamaha. There is a fax number fo the Service survey. How about you fax your complaint to 02 9630 3713 Martin Dwyer Manager Customer Service. i'm sure he would like to hear direct from you rather than from this website.

Hope it works out for you.

Steve

[Mindi]

Mick
I reckon that your sort of posting is what the forum should be about. Provided it is in good faith then surely the whole point of a forum is to share experience to contribute to other people's decision making. I was disappointed in my last Yamaha also, a 90 HP 2 stroke which after 5 minutes at WOT had the eyebrow raising habit of shutting down instantly...and dealer could not find anything wrong. Having said that I think Steve is spot on in suspecting that the dealer/mechanic is key to these issues in most cases and the often repeated advice to choose your dealership rather than just the motor brand is good advice.

[Luke G]

If you go the Suzuki's you will be very impressed. Torque like a 2 stroke with 4 stroke fuel economy and quieness.

[TheRealAndy]

The VMR boat at sandgate has 2 suzuki's on it that always seem to be broken down (not sure what or why). They are getting on now, perhaps 5 year old and I think they are up up for replacement.

[Ocean_Spirit]

Have a look at the 3.3Ltr Evinrude 200E-TEC's. Best 'all-round' engine we have owned, and have spent time in boats with all the latest engines. Plenty of punch and very smooth across the range. Worth a look in.

[Redbream]

Gday Mick.


Sounds like a bit of a problem. Seems to be always the little bloke who misses out. Do you deal with Coastal? I suppose being where you are makes it hard.
I'm a Merc fan, but think all brands (Etec will catch up one day;) ) are good, so long as you can get good back up service. I work in the AB game and have also noticed that there is a change taking place with OB colours.:D . There are numerous boats up this way now that have been Yamaha for years or Etec and have now gone Merc or Suzuki. They, as you'd know, treat em rough, so it will be an interesting one to watch. The cops is also interesting.


The 225's that rotted out.......Is that an AB boat? My boss has 200 2 strokes atm and will update to 200 or 225 4 strokes, and will be Yamaha, but if that can happen after those hours (2 years for us), sort of makes you think a little.

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb5/haines635l/P6270285800x600.jpg




http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb5/haines635l/P6270290800x600.jpg



The 200's have 1200 hours in 2 years and have almost been faultess, just tooooo thirsty:P . Good luck with your decision.



Cheers Shaun.

[Mister]

Tasmanian Police have changed to Mercury Optimaxes, and with which I am hearing good reports.

Government purchases are not a good indication of much apart from being the lowest quote.


by eating through the water jackets from the inside out....Both between 1000-1100 Hrs, Both on the same Boat, and this is not due to the annodes not being changed, The first time it happened, Yamahas comment was. Gee , that has never happened before.....$10 K later.....and now another has had the same fate.....???????........

Same fate, same boat? Coinincidence you think or something else?

[chop duster]

snelly,
what sort of problems are you having? I bet if you were to post your info up on the HullTruth forum you would get an explanatin within 24 hrs.
Yammy 115's are renown for their reliability, therefore changing brand to gain reliability, just doesn't make sense to me?
I guess not being able to get a tech to look at your outboard is going to be frustrating, so I can understand you are a bt piised at this point.
How good are the merc and suzuki reps in the area? anyone you can talk to (being of similar buying power) that can share their experience.
I am a merc fan myself, although can recognise a good motor when I see one.

p.s- have you tried contacting this other (yamaha dealer) directly?

[snelly1971]

Gday Mick.


Sounds like a bit of a problem. Seems to be always the little bloke who misses out. Do you deal with Coastal? I suppose being where you are makes it hard.
I'm a Merc fan, but think all brands (Etec will catch up one day;) ) are good, so long as you can get good back up service. I work in the AB game and have also noticed that there is a change taking place with OB colours.:D . There are numerous boats up this way now that have been Yamaha for years or Etec and have now gone Merc or Suzuki. They, as you'd know, treat em rough, so it will be an interesting one to watch. The cops is also interesting.


The 225's that rotted out.......Is that an AB boat? My boss has 200 2 strokes atm and will update to 200 or 225 4 strokes, and will be Yamaha, but if that can happen after those hours (2 years for us), sort of makes you think a little.

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb5/haines635l/P6270285800x600.jpg




http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb5/haines635l/P6270290800x600.jpg



The 200's have 1200 hours in 2 years and have almost been faultess, just tooooo thirsty:P . Good luck with your decision.



Cheers Shaun.

Nice Looking Tri star , My last rig was a Tri star, The boat in mention with the 225 problems is fish Farm travel Boat.


Mick

[snelly1971]

snelly,
what sort of problems are you having? I bet if you were to post your info up on the HullTruth forum you would get an explanatin within 24 hrs.
Yammy 115's are renown for their reliability, therefore changing brand to gain reliability, just doesn't make sense to me?
I guess not being able to get a tech to look at your outboard is going to be frustrating, so I can understand you are a bt piised at this point.
How good are the merc and suzuki reps in the area? anyone you can talk to (being of similar buying power) that can share their experience.
I am a merc fan myself, although can recognise a good motor when I see one.

p.s- have you tried contacting this other (yamaha dealer) directly?

I have posted the problem on The Hull Truth,
www.thehulltruth.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=210530&start=1

Suzuki have told me that they will be down in a max of 24 hrs if I were to have any problems, If I purchase from them...

I am yet to speak to Mercury..


There is another Dealer North of where I Live, and they would only be 2 hrs away, But from reports, and seeing some of the prices that they have charged locals here for Services, which, I have seen first hand, not completed or even Done...So I will Stay clear of them..

Mick

[snelly1971]

Government purchases are not a good indication of much apart from being the lowest quote.



Same fate, same boat? Coinincidence you think or something else?


I was just interested in hearing if maybe other Yammie 4 stroke owners have had any similar issues???

1 More reason to sell/trade mine in before they get up to that ammount of Hours

Mick

[ffejsmada]

Government purchases are not a good indication of much apart from being the lowest quote.

Sorry mate, but you are way off the mark.
I used to be a Government Purchasing Officer and sure, price is a factor, so is warranty, reliability, risk, maintenance costs etc, etc.

I can assure you that if the Tas police have chosen Mercury, they have been chosen for a number of reasons, not just on lowest cost.

Firstly, it goes out to tender. Dealers that want a chance to deal go through the tender process.

All of the above factors such as price, warranty, maintenance etc. have a point score. Each brand of motor would have been given a weighted point score against each factor, being the Tas water Police, I would say reliability would be given a high matrix point score. Tallied up at the end on a matrix scale, the highest point scoring dealer theoretically should get the nod for purchase.

That's how it works.

Cheers Jeff.

[Mindi]

Sorry mate, but you are way off the mark.
I used to be a Government Purchasing Officer and sure, price is a factor, so is warranty, reliability, risk, maintenance costs etc, etc.

I can assure you that if the Tas police have chosen Mercury, they have been chosen for a number of reasons, not just on lowest cost.

Firstly, it goes out to tender. Dealers that want a chance to deal go through the tender process.

All of the above factors such as price, warranty, maintenance etc. have a point score. Each brand of motor would have been given a weighted point score against each factor, being the Tas water Police, I would say reliability would be given a high matrix point score. Tallied up at the end on a matrix scale, the highest point scoring dealer theoretically should get the nod for purchase.

That's how it works.



Cheers Jeff.

The old Kepner Traego evaluation model.....hey Jeff dont go undermining people's stereotypes with facts...get a grip man...!

[ozbee]

going with what the police use is not really a good guide as about the biggest load they would carry is there Thermos and doughnuts best bet would be the vmr least it a rounded view towing as well as cruising.

[Spaniard_King]

Mick,

I am with the guys on Hull truth, You need to check the fuel pressure at the injector rail when this problem is occcurrg and when it's not (compare withe other engine)

See if you can get hold of a RFI fuel system pressure check kit.. I just bought another one from Cheapa Autos here on the gold coast for $79.00.

On the fuel rail where the injectors are attached you will see a push bike tube tyre inflator like connector.. this is where you will need to connect the fuel gauge.

GO for a run and observe the puel pressure at the rpm at which the problem occurs (just leave the cowling off and cable tie gauge so you can see it) You may need another person to drive ;)

You should have at least 30psi at all times.. normal fuel rail pressure is 38-45psi but you wont see or feel any problems with the engine untill it gets down to 30 or so.

If the fuel pressure is fluctuating or there is simply not enough.. look at the filters and then possibly a fuel pressure regulator.

best of luck!

[Pridey]

Just throwing it out there, I've own 4 OBs over the years :
- an ancient chrysler 40)
- A 70 Hp John
- a 50 Evinrude
- 50 Merc
- currently a little 25 yamaha.


The Johno, Evinrude and the Yamaha were the best, only had to deal with wear and tear maintainence stuff.
The Merc shat it'self in Tropical Esturys (sediment,mud etc.)
The Chrysler was older than the rivers it swam in and was fairly unreliable.
However, The Yamaha has by far out performed the rest, starts first pull every time, easy to service.... I think Im in love with it.

Agreed Im hearing great things from Suzuki and Honda, hopefully Yamaha will do something like that.... I figure if they can make fast and reliable small engine for motor bikes then they can do OBs too.... god help us if Kawasaki hit the market !!!

[snelly1971]

Mick,

I am with the guys on Hull truth, You need to check the fuel pressure at the injector rail when this problem is occcurrg and when it's not (compare withe other engine)

See if you can get hold of a RFI fuel system pressure check kit.. I just bought another one from Cheapa Autos here on the gold coast for $79.00.

On the fuel rail where the injectors are attached you will see a push bike tube tyre inflator like connector.. this is where you will need to connect the fuel gauge.

GO for a run and observe the puel pressure at the rpm at which the problem occurs (just leave the cowling off and cable tie gauge so you can see it) You may need another person to drive ;)

You should have at least 30psi at all times.. normal fuel rail pressure is 38-45psi but you wont see or feel any problems with the engine untill it gets down to 30 or so.

If the fuel pressure is fluctuating or there is simply not enough.. look at the filters and then possibly a fuel pressure regulator.

best of luck!

Pulling the boat out Saturday Garry, to have another fiddle, cleaning the whole fuel system, testing it, then hopefully all goes well..
Mick

[TheRealAndy]

Mick,

I am with the guys on Hull truth, You need to check the fuel pressure at the injector rail when this problem is occcurrg and when it's not (compare withe other engine)

See if you can get hold of a RFI fuel system pressure check kit.. I just bought another one from Cheapa Autos here on the gold coast for $79.00.

On the fuel rail where the injectors are attached you will see a push bike tube tyre inflator like connector.. this is where you will need to connect the fuel gauge.

GO for a run and observe the puel pressure at the rpm at which the problem occurs (just leave the cowling off and cable tie gauge so you can see it) You may need another person to drive ;)

You should have at least 30psi at all times.. normal fuel rail pressure is 38-45psi but you wont see or feel any problems with the engine untill it gets down to 30 or so.

If the fuel pressure is fluctuating or there is simply not enough.. look at the filters and then possibly a fuel pressure regulator.

best of luck!

The annoyting thing is you shouldn't have to do that. That is why we pay the marine mechanics. I say dump your current mechanic, cause I am guessing that if you stick with them its not going to matter what brand outboard you purchase.

[cormorant]

Sorry mate, but you are way off the mark.
I used to be a Government Purchasing Officer and sure, price is a factor, so is warranty, reliability, risk, maintenance costs etc, etc.

I can assure you that if the Tas police have chosen Mercury, they have been chosen for a number of reasons, not just on lowest cost.

Firstly, it goes out to tender. Dealers that want a chance to deal go through the tender process.

All of the above factors such as price, warranty, maintenance etc. have a point score. Each brand of motor would have been given a weighted point score against each factor, being the Tas water Police, I would say reliability would be given a high matrix point score. Tallied up at the end on a matrix scale, the highest point scoring dealer theoretically should get the nod for purchase.

That's how it works.

Cheers Jeff.

Hi Jeff

Not the full story necessararily and every tender is different and weightings different.
Reliability of motors is an unknown. What they score is the agreement on service times and downtime. As an example a winning tenderer I know of offered to have a complete spare motor, computers and 2 lowerunits left at the service base and a 24hr guarantee that boats would be back on the water. The tenderer after having being screwed by a parts shortage on previous moters weighted that. Shame it was an motors that continued to have issues so a lot of 24hr loss of access to boats caused all sorts of issues. New contracts were drawn up regarding total downtime limits and penalties.

Dealers get supported by manufacturers. A manufacturer will offer a dealer an incentive to chase the tender - example the spare parts and motor as above at no cost and a guaranteed buy back of motors at the end of XX hours or time frame running or not.

Manufacturers see the value in advertising and want to see their motors on , police , fisheries, navy etc .

Talk to the users and to a large extent they will have a preference for a brand or another due to the service they get as opposed to the actual motors in a lot of cases.

Bluntly many of the motors on the boats do not represent anything that could be compared with general boaters or in many cases commercial users. I reckon there would be a lot of commercial users who would like to hand back motors every 18 months or 1000hrs and get new ones with fully serviced flat cost for period of use. Corrosion can show in the motors in that period but doesn't kill em and there is all sorts of issues. These issues are unknown ever to the person issueing the tender.

The other factor is the servicing agent has full factory support as he loses if there is downtime condition sin the contract so it is in his interest to do preventative maintainance if required and actually fully diagnose issues. Don't you wish your mechanic actually had an incentive to do this? The manufacturers get feedback on issues 'that won't occur in the domestic fleet for 6 years at average usage and also see which components fail or wear under high usage. They write these into service bullitins if action is required. Good manufacturers pull down of some returned motors and failures shows real life wear numbers so they can compare with there own in house testing.

I can tell you that no smart emergency service group manager will ever again change all fleet motors over at one point in time and be left with first generation technology even though it has been put up at very atractive prices. The risk is too great and they have been caught by every manufacturer with below spec motors in the last 10 years.

hmmmm not a flat playing field at all. Tenders squeaky clean on paper but very muddy in other aspects . The matrix criteria is in the tender documents and I have seen included things like cowl colour in there as it was the only way a particular motor could be given an advantage ( not in recent years as that would be too obvious).

One last point - with the advent of heavy as lead 4 strokes in the last 10 years many existing boats performed like crap with them on so there was some very attractive packages put together by engine manufacturers with boat builders so they could see their new motors on the boats in the public eye.

Back to the topic now - sorry for the distraction but people have to understand there is a load of factors and reasons why a particular motor is on a government or commercial boat and it isn't always that it is the best motor.

Last point - at the price the govt buys fuel even in recent tenders I have seen fuel ecconomy or cartbon footprint haven't even been mentioned. One manufacturer included a carbon offset obligation ( ie they would plant trees) as their motor in real life was a heavy fuel user and to try and make them look more environmental as the manager had green ears so to speak - it worked.

[davo]

Service back up is an enormous issue. A friend of ours has a 50HP Suzzy 4 stroke and Suzuki can't seem to fix it! Not impressed. I have no axe to grind with any brand. For the record I have a 4 stroke Yammy. Very happy, great dealer and servicer. That alone would make it hard to change although if Etec keeps going like it does that may change?

[DALEPRICE]

Mick, new of a 250 yamaha 4 banger that was doing the same thing when
cruising along would drop 500rpm for a few minutes then come back
after a while. Turned out to be a crook spark plug, motor had 500 hours on it
at the time.

cheers dale
just thinking outside the square

[snelly1971]

I Have a Yamaha Tech coming around from Hobart next week to find the problem, It will cost me a fortune for travelling time, but I just need it Fixed.

I have spoken to the Marine Dealer who supplies the bulk of the commercially set up 4 strokes and they do think there is a problem with the Yamaha 4 strokes being corroded from the inside out, where I live, they are not really sure what the cause is,


It May Be

The tannin , which is the brown run off water on the button grass plains here on the west coast, which contains a lot of acid..

And together with the higher temps that 4 strokes run at...

and maybe a flaw with the composite of what the engine annodes are made off.

They said they did have a reasonably new suzuki 4 stoke in, which was having problems, and found that it was nearly completely eaten out internally. This motor had only ever been used in a fresh water lake...

So only time will tell I suppose, The farms here use 60, 75, 90, 115 ,130 two strokes for years, in the past , with the motors being left in the water, and never a problem.

Mick

[FNQCairns]

I Have a Yamaha Tech coming around from Hobart next week to find the problem, It will cost me a fortune for travelling time, but I just need it Fixed.

I have spoken to the Marine Dealer who supplies the bulk of the commercially set up 4 strokes and they do think there is a problem with the Yamaha 4 strokes being corroded from the inside out, where I live, they are not really sure what the cause is,


It May Be

The tannin , which is the brown run off water on the button grass plains here on the west coast, which contains a lot of acid..

And together with the higher temps that 4 strokes run at...

and maybe a flaw with the composite of what the engine annodes are made off.

They said they did have a reasonably new suzuki 4 stoke in, which was having problems, and found that it was nearly completely eaten out internally. This motor had only ever been used in a fresh water lake...

So only time will tell I suppose, The farms here use 60, 75, 90, 115 ,130 two strokes for years, in the past , with the motors being left in the water, and never a problem.

Mick

The other reason which has been a topic of discussion ever since the 4 strokes became an in thing is the internal coating used for gallery's, it was understood that time will tell all - possibly it is just starting now??

Those that have had some to do with outboard engines built for 40 odd years the difference in cast aluminium quality is noticeable. In the quest for lightness the aluminium weight seen in a 1985 model yamaha and a 2005 seem greatly different.

All it would take is a single break in the coating and who could predict which individual engine?

cheers fnq

[bluecat]

Our local Guy is quite good, but he has asked another Dealer, who he has been buying off for 25 years to allow him to borrow there ( 1 of many) Yamaha Diagnostic software and cable, so he can hook up via a laptop to diagnose my problem.But we are still waiting....Seems they are just too busy, with 1 of there much bigger customers.
if its who i think you are talking about they have only owned the business for 4 years or so havent they??


There is another Dealer North of where I Live, and they would only be 2 hrs away, But from reports, and seeing some of the prices that they have charged locals here for Services, which, I have seen first hand, not completed or even Done...So I will Stay clear of them..

theres probably bad stories with every dealer, i dont deal with them but have heard only good stuff,but i guess if you live down in the sticks its the price you pay,why doesnt your dealer have diagnostics,i would have thought he would have market share down there?