Gas ( LPG ) powered boat ? [Archive] - Ausfish fishing Australia, Australian Angling Forums

ashleyhj74

14-08-2008, 07:09 PM

Theres a bloke down here in Vic doin kits for outboard motors (yamaha 2-strokes only, somethin to do with the way the oil is injected). He sent me out a DVD on them, looked all good, but all very old ie: 80's stuff. I originally queried the cost of the dvd (he was sellin them for $40 on ebay or somethin), so he sent me one (i assumed free, he never mentioned money till a few weeks later), then i got a email a few weeks later askin for payment (he got a return email about that one, i assume i wont be welcome to buy a kit off him anymore). I asked numerous times for info on kits that had been installed, he never really gave me a straight answer, which is sad really i was keen on it. Other than the 80's model motors on the dvd, i dont know of any other kits. He certainly wouldnt tell me about any. It was over a grand for the kit, not including tanks. But, and heres the issue, i couldnt find a lpg fitter who'd put a compliance plate on it. The old guy who makes the kits couldnt help me there either, just kept telling me club marine would insure it no worries. Club Marine wouldnt without a plate, hence the problem. I rang a heap of places down here, but noone wanted to know me. If i could've got the ID plate, my 200 yam would be running on it now. Would've gladly spent the money to do so.

Quaker

14-08-2008, 08:22 PM

Yep, there's a guy here in S.A installing gas into ski boats with inboard v8's. At least you know there's no ethanol in gas.:D

Lucky_Phill

15-08-2008, 05:09 PM

I know the car engines that run on gas are OK. Had a factory fitted " Italian " unit fitted to a new XH ute back in 98. When gas prices are 3/4's of the unleaded price, you may as well run unleaded. But more often that not, gas is half price.

To give an example... I had a 68 ltr tank for fuel and a 68 for gas. Highway running I would get 715k's from 68 ltrs fuel and 515k's from 68ltrs of gas.

Recent motors are made to be compliant with LPG should you wish to convert. Therefore I am thinking there are not too many problems.

Probably need to carry 200 - 300 ltrs of gas, which can be done in long cylinders underfloor ( 2 or 4 ? ). Leakage detectors ( sensors and alarms ) and appropriate fire fighting equipment. May not even have to run heat exchangers as modern motors and radiators are very efficient. Then get a " surveyor " to organize exactly where to place the motor ( balance is important ) and add the Jet.

As for the hydraulic fins, that should not be an issue. Could even have them setup similar to Trim Tabs, only have the " tab " vertical instead of horizontal. Also a set of Trim Tabs fitted.

I remember a Swiftcraft coming out in about mid 80's that carried an inboard and jet from the factory.....

I might go have a squizz at some of the Rescue Boats ........

Cheers Phill

Grunter71

15-08-2008, 09:09 PM

Curious about what sort of fire equipment you would install Phil. Would it be an automatic type setup?

I have a fire extinguisher on my boat, but if there was ever a fire, I think my first reaction would be to have everybody over the side. If there was LPG involved, I think I would be over the side quicker, I would not want to be around holding a fire extinguisher.

Poodroo

15-08-2008, 09:13 PM

Phill if you succeed with this idea then you could get any unsuspecting deckie to pay his share of normal fuel costs not letting on that you are running it on gas and then stand to profit from your hobby. ;D

Poodroo

Lucky_Phill

15-08-2008, 09:34 PM

16-08-2008, 12:03 AM

Lucky Phil,

You will need to check your local regulations quite closely. I am going through the exercise in Vic presently to set up for installs. The Vic boating regulations do not allow for LPG tanks to be under the floor of a vessel or any other concealed area. This can be overturned by the Director of Marine Safety.

There is an Australian standard for installs onto marine engines which is basically the automotive standard with the inclusion of a gas detector at the lowermost point of the hull and of course some form of bilge purging/blowing device.

There is no regulatory body in Vic who licences installers for the marine market and therefore no real compliance. However, applying the Australian standard to the install is sufficient enough given the circumstances and the compliance would then be issued by the fitter.

RACV tell me they will happily insure LPG powered vessels. Several others won't.

I suspect your marine regs in Qld will be quite similar to Vic and other states.

I am looking at fitting systems to larger vessels that would be typically non trailered. This has required a cost effective means of getting LPG to the vessels which has been worked out in principal.

If you fit a vapour injection system or the new liquid injection (not yet released) system you will have economy equal to petrol and equal power.

Manchester Tanks down this way make many tank sizes but the tanks would need to be custom built for many applications which is a cost issue.

Cheers

mik01

16-08-2008, 03:13 PM

Grunter....

The standard required fire fighting gear and also LPG dedicated equipment.

Any fire will not be at the storage area, but around the engine bay. It would be the same as any other inboard.

Safety valves installed on all LPG tanks will prevent those tanks going up.

BUT< fires on inboards around the engine bay are usually associated with ' carby ' engines. Those things can leak and also backfire due to poor maintenance and tuning. The modern engine being fuel injected ( LPG injected ) virtually eliminates this problem.

Further, LPG sensors and alarms will alert me to any issues before they progress into problems.

I think with todays technology this intended setup can be achieved safely and efficiently.

phill

Phil,

as BM alluded to, your main issue will be ventilation. when a cylinder overheats due to a fire, the valve is designed to vent gas to release the pressure within the cylinder. the LPG in the cyl effectively burns off and no harm is done to anyone - however when located underfloor in an enclosed area the lpg will vent and burn your boat down.

two concerns come to mind around ventilation..

1 - LPG expands around 270 times its own mass when released from a liquid state to a gas - should your cylinder need to vent, without any (or sufficient) airflow underfloor, you will only be creating a big, enclosed bomb

2 - LPG is heavier than air - people have died in caravans by turning on ovens to keep warm, leaving the oven door open and going to sleep. the flame goes out, but the LPG continues to pump out and slowly fills up the space. effectively you drown. this is relevant to a boat in that you would need to ensure that the cabin is unable to become a receptacle for leaking LPG on an overnighter- you would need to be careful - perhaps another sensor in the cabin also. but don't stake your life on a sensor... think of it like a creeping fog that will find the lowest point, fill up etc.

having said that, I have worked with LPG for years and it is very safe - much safer than petrol if respected and handled appropriately. as already mentioned, stainless tanks are mandatory. you would have to run regular checks for corrosion around the valves and regulators, also hoses - thats common sense of course, just might need more frequent inspections than petrol setups.

in relation to fire fighting, short of reaching under and turning off the valves in the event of a fire (caused from a leak and ignition somewhere), you would be best to jump over the side and let it burn out. let's be honest mate - you might live but the burns you suffer are not worth it

sorry for the rambling - there's so much to take into account with LPG and confined spaces its hard to put it all into words.
I work in the industry, and have a mate who is an LPG technician - feel free to pm me for info. also you would want to go through the Gas Examiner's regs - find it at the Qld Govt website.

I worry about people having access to such a setup 'willy nilly' - some people have no business with such a setup as they would fail to respect and maintain the basics and they would be the ones horribly burnt or dead (along with loved ones).

I'm sure you are quite the opposite Phil - good luck with it.
http://www.lpgautogas.com.au/

Bonus

16-08-2008, 07:27 PM

honda900

16-08-2008, 07:55 PM

this bloke should sort it out for you..;)

Regards
Honda

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXviz1zx2J0

oldboot

16-08-2008, 10:51 PM

All the issues with gas on boats must have been dealt with in QLD because all the brisbane ferry fleet run on gas CNG admitredly but still gas.
This includes all the cross river ferries and the city cats.
OH these are all diesel motors too.

I dont think it is an unreasonable expectation at all

as for the venting....that has to be delt with in vehicles that have tanks inside like 90% of taxis...... so I don't think it is an issue

gas on a ststionary type motor I don't see as a problem at all....well tried.

gas on an outboard would be another thing all together......all the fuel systems are different from cars so injection platesor carbies and stuff would have to be spec made.

then you have to get heat from somewhere to do the liquid to gass conversion..... thats not easy with an outboard
then there is the issue of flexible hoses to the motor..... where do you put the exchannger....... very messy.

also when the talk about cars running cold in the cooling system that is still way hotter than a typical outboard cooing system.

and if it is a two stroke......what do you do with the oil

yeh stationary motor........ a doddle.......outboard....hard very hard

cheers

tin can marlin

16-08-2008, 10:54 PM

I think we will see it our life time maybe 25 years away.

TimiBoy

17-08-2008, 06:31 AM

With long tanks under the floor, how much flex in the hull are you expecting? You'd need to be very wary of that not translating to flex in the tanks.

You probably thought of that, but I thought I'd mention it...

Fascinating thread!

Tim

marco

17-08-2008, 07:03 AM

Phil,

the LPG in the cyl effectively burns off and no harm is done to anyone -

miko1 , i think you have forgotten about the " bleve " effect which makes your statement rather dangerous .

google bleve for some cool youtube stuff

boiling liquid expanding vapour explosion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BLEVE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FdXTq9LXOY

dogsbody

17-08-2008, 07:05 AM

Should have no problems with LPG power boat if regulations in the relevant states allow it.

Been happening in the UK for quite some time.

http://marinegasconversions.com/conopt.aspx

Dave.

marco

17-08-2008, 07:21 AM

another consideration for the long term economics of the project would be the corrosion aspect and in particular the storage tanks . replacement of these every 2 or 3 years may put a dent in the budget .

i think oldboots comment about the comparison with moving outboards to stationary inboards is valid as well , there are flexible hoses on the market that could do the job but i would think would require hose testing every year or so which adds more exspense .

17-08-2008, 08:21 AM

I have been considering putting LPG on my 175 Suzuki. I was going to give Jon Eadie a ring on it. Maybe Suzuki would like to help as well. Tuning the set up might be difficult. How do we dyno the outboard? Does anyone have thoughts on this or info to share. Russ

Presently, LPG setups are being tested in China for Suzuki outboards. A mate of mine is over there. He is not involved in whats occuring but he is a boating enthusiast hence him knowing about it.

Outboard dyno's are available.

17-08-2008, 08:22 AM

Sydney has water taxis that have been running LPG for some years now. Several other countries do also.

Chers

Bonus

17-08-2008, 12:20 PM

I was going to have 2 above floor tanks. My boat has plenty of room, so it should carry 2- 45Kg bottles. These hold 90 litres each,so 180 litres all up. This gives a range of 150 nautical miles approx. It would be good for the environment and the wallet. I wonder if the government would give us the $2000 rebate? HaHa no chance. Lets be positive with these ideas as it would very benificial.

mik01

17-08-2008, 06:05 PM

miko1 , i think you have forgotten about the " bleve " effect which makes your statement rather dangerous .

google bleve for some cool youtube stuff

boiling liquid expanding vapour explosion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BLEVE

Marco, this is precisely what the valve is designed to prevent - it 'vents' and releases the pressure in the vessel (cyl) - the gas shoots out and burns off.

of course, a bleve can occur where the air surrounding the cyl is so hot that the pressure in the cyl rises too quickly that even the venting cannot release sufficient pressure.

which is why my suggestion was to don your jacket and jump overboard rather than attempt a fire fight. let it burn out, and if it does and the boat still floats then you're safe

ps - you've taken my comments totally out of perspective. I have seen a few lpg cylinders on fire and personally turned the valves off (controlled tests) - a bleve is a major rupture caused by excessive heat - usually a fire that cannot be controlled.

respect LPG and it is a very safe fuel - I reckon it gets a bad rap due to general 'ignorance' - doesn't help when blokes blow themselves up through dodgy practices

mik01

17-08-2008, 06:17 PM

Should have no problems with LPG power boat if regulations in the relevant states allow it.

Been happening in the UK for quite some time.

http://marinegasconversions.com/conopt.aspx

Dave.

yep - however this is vastly different a setup to what Phil was seeking.
this is an externally mounted cyl of a limited capacity (i guess about 60-80 litres)

long range tanks underfloor is what Phil was enquiring about - vastly different scenario.

I don't know what the setup is on the ferries, however once again, different scenario to the one Phil seeks.

any LPG setup on a 6m rig would have limited range (perhaps max 80 litres) - the cost benefits vs cost to setup, maintain and loss of range are probably all reasons why its not a more mainstream fuel solution today

marco

18-08-2008, 04:36 PM

Marco, this is precisely what the valve is designed to prevent - it 'vents' and releases the pressure in the vessel (cyl) - the gas shoots out and burns off.

of course, a bleve can occur where the air surrounding the cyl is so hot that the pressure in the cyl rises too quickly that even the venting cannot release sufficient pressure.

which is why my suggestion was to don your jacket and jump overboard rather than attempt a fire fight. let it burn out, and if it does and the boat still floats then you're safe

ps - you've taken my comments totally out of perspective. I have seen a few lpg cylinders on fire and personally turned the valves off (controlled tests) - a bleve is a major rupture caused by excessive heat - usually a fire that cannot be controlled.

respect LPG and it is a very safe fuel - I reckon it gets a bad rap due to general 'ignorance' - doesn't help when blokes blow themselves up through dodgy practices

hi mik ,
with all due respect i havent taken your comments out of perpective at all , your comment was open to interpretation and i needed to point the danger out .
i have had numerous years dealing with lpg in bulk quanities and i have had all the required training and the one thing you do in the case of fire is run like all f%^$ . that comes from the fire trainers and i have seen a molten mess that was once a bulk road tanker .

you are correct about the vent off valve but if it is at the point where it is ignited then it is too late to hang around with any certanity that the tank will not rupture therefore i disagree with your staement about no danger .
i also agree with having respect for the stuff but dont be fooled , it is much mre dangerous than petrol .

oldboot

18-08-2008, 11:38 PM

I don't think it is reasonable to say that LPG is much more dangerous than petrol.

Dangerous in a different way, possibly.

More dangerous in some ways, or more dangerous in some situations most probably.

It's like discussion what is more dangerous a bus or a train.

Any sort of established fuel fire on board a small boat makes a swimm look to be a good proposition.

The packaging and installation practices for gas certainly address most of the associated risks, and it could be argued that the risks for gass are better managed than the risks for petrol in many typical installtions.

Anyway.............what sort of event aboard a small boat is going to cause a gas container to be " a significant danger"? I would argue that the event that would cause a gass container to vent would present sufficient danger to abandon ship on its own. That same or similar event applied to a typical petrol tank would also present a large and overwhelming danger.

The single most probable danger from both gass and liquid fuels abboard a boat is leakage, with the associated risk of explosion and fire.

gass will redily disipate in open air where liquid fuels will sit in puddles and run where it wants, soaking soft materials. Thus a liquid fuel provides gaseous fumes for reddy ignition a a resovour of fuel for continued combustion.

It could therefore argue that all liquid fuels are more dangerous than gasses on open boats.

What realy matters is that approprite consideration is given to the installtion of whatever fuel systemis employed. Because gass fitting is a licenced and regulated occupation it is reasonable to expect that a gas instaltion could easily be safer than a liquid fuel one.

how many underfloor petrol tanks are incorrectly vented, how many people have tried to fill their fuel tanks thru their rod holders, how many petroll tanks are inspected regularly by a qualified and licenced person.

I think the use of LPG and CNG on rectreational boats is overdue, and the dangers compared to liquid fuels are similar.

cheers

mik01

19-08-2008, 12:34 AM

hi mik ,
with all due respect i havent taken your comments out of perpective at all , your comment was open to interpretation and i needed to point the danger out .
i have had numerous years dealing with lpg in bulk quanities and i have had all the required training and the one thing you do in the case of fire is run like all f%^$ . that comes from the fire trainers and i have seen a molten mess that was once a bulk road tanker .

you are correct about the vent off valve but if it is at the point where it is ignited then it is too late to hang around with any certanity that the tank will not rupture therefore i disagree with your staement about no danger .
i also agree with having respect for the stuff but dont be fooled , it is much mre dangerous than petrol .

Marco - without getting into a measuring contest, I am very knowledgeable in relation to gases, particularly LPG.

we are arguing apples and oranges here...
your point relates to bulk installations, where we are discussing portable cylinders possibly only around 200L max.

of course, in the situation of a bulk (multi tonne) cyl being engulfed in flames - you run. there is simply no way to cool the cylinder down, or 'drown' the fire with a water deluge.

having said that, the Bleve effect is not immediate - any suggestion of this is a simplistic stereotype.

a rupture of any kind is caused by heat weakening the metal of the cyl vs the pressure of the contents inside. the science of it is that it takes time for the heat to build to a sufficient level for a rupture to occur - dependent of course on the ferocity of the fire surrounding it (ie bushfire). in this case you would not be hanging around at all (as Oldboot says)

i strongly disagree with your comment that once ignited, it is 'too late' - as if rupture is immediate. the science does not support that theory.

I have personally seen lpg cylinders next to a (timber) house survive the whole house burning down - the valves vented and the gas burnt off. also, I have personally turned off 9kg cyls that were on fire.
The Fireys at Lytton regularly use ignited lpg cylinders in old cars as training for the real thing - interesting to hear from them on how many rupture.

I am not advocating there is 'no danger', as that would be irresponsible. in the scenario we are discussing, as I have stated in every post, jump overboard and swim away is the only thing you can do.

Having said all of this, I would not have lpg on my boat in an underfloor solution.
Even though I do still support my comment that it is safer than petrol - if it was so volatile and dangerous that simply igniting a leak causes a rupture we would not have access to it in the public domain.

marco

19-08-2008, 02:48 AM

marco

19-08-2008, 02:52 AM

as a experiment why dont you get a 4kg lpg bottle and the eqivilant container of petrol and ignite both and pick which one you want to be further away from .

PinHead

19-08-2008, 05:24 AM

a lot of comments about cylinders rupturing and catching fire..where is this heat supposed to come from to give sufficient pressure to rupture the cylinder. The hull of a boat in the water is rather cool therefore cylinder pressure will be quite low. Pressure relif valves vented to outside of the hull would alleviate any of those problems if they do occur. Gas sensor in the hull would also detect any leaks and sound an alarm.

wayneoro

19-08-2008, 06:54 AM

lpg tanks could be used as floatation pods or a cat specifically made with exterior lpg tanks ;) as hull etc price of lpg 1st coles shell out of brisbane gateway 62c ltr bunderberg 82c ltr >:( in nz they introduced cng [80s] it was 1/3 price of petrol but tuning was a problem when switching back to petrol . my 4.1 ford motor runs perfect on lpg and this motor has done so since 1979 8-)

mik01

19-08-2008, 07:34 AM

well e will have to agree to disagree , i have seen the end result of even 4.5kg bottles rupturing in the rear of a car .

the danger with lpg is more to do with it being a compressed gas and mik , your comments about the firies at lytton are great but they are trained about this stuff . most of the public are not .
remember you said "the LPG in the cyl effectively burns off and no harm is done to anyone"

that comment is dangerous to someone who is not trained about lpg .

and we havent even got onto the subject of cold burns .

i think its time to move on from this - I clarified my comments on this one. "the cyl is 'designed' to vent and burn off without doing harm to anyone"

at any rate - who in their right mind are going to stand around when their boat is on fire???

I think you are being a little precious about this one comment Marco.

any idiot has an appreciation of lpg cos it is a typical bbq fuel - any idiot knows the basics - ie it burns cold if you stick your hand in the stream, it is highly flammable, don't smoke or expose to naked flame when operating gas.

I hardly think my comment will entice people to stand around next to burning cylinders and toast marshmallows.

I am not scared of lpg - I just give it a healthy dose of respect.

Noelm

19-08-2008, 08:36 AM

I know a guy that did his own conversion on a Volvo Stern drive a couple of years ago, it is still going today and has not blown up (yet) not too sure how legal it is, considering it was a "home handyman" job, who knows (he is a Mechanic though) gets good fuel economy, runs OK, but being a Stern dive, you do not have the problems of an Outboard conversion, when it is all said and done, it is just a car Engine, probably would be wise to check the tank often I would say.

oldboot

19-08-2008, 11:47 AM

From what I understand the difference in construction and safety between a small ( cheap and nasty wot $30) portable gass cylinger and a designed to survive installed automotive type cylinder and more than significant.

Yeh we've all heard about barby cylinders blowing up in cars and being used by terrorists...... but that is a very different situation.
Apart from the fact that most of the "exploding gass cylinders in cars" involve a leaking cylinder in an enclosed space.......so the gass can not vent safely, the venting gass actulay contributes to the problem in the enclosed space.

Personaly I believe that the portable gass cylinder is one of the most dangerous things that can ever be on a boat, particularly an enclosed boat.
There are gass fires and such every week in boats and caravans..... but usulay they involve portable cylinders and or cooking apliances. Both of which are no where near as well controlled in application nor as closely regulated as propulsion fuel systems.

As for the burning tanks comparison that is pretty over simplistic comparison.

You might also ask what would you rather be in the water with, a leaking gas tank or a leaking petrol tank

The most likely gass fuel package for boating I think would be a forklift style cylinder.
so you have two small boats.....lets make them fibreglass because it burns better.....said boats catche on fire (how good question).........what presents more of a hazard the plastic petrol tank ( with plastic or rubber hoses & fittings) on deck or the forklift cylinder( with braided metal covered tempriture rated hoses and metal fittings) on deck.

As side issue I believe there is far to little attention paid to the use of fire retardent or non flamable materials on boats.

The biggest problem with any gas system is the inability to do any work on the fuel system unless you have a gass ticket. So you have the smallest problem that may directly or indirectly involve connecting, disconnecting or working on the gass system you need a gas fitter or a mechanic with a gass certificate.......how many marine mechanics have a gas certificate?

Like many things it is all in the detail............fishing should certainly teach us about detail.

cheers

Lucky_Phill

19-08-2008, 01:50 PM

Thanks everyone for the input.

With good info from informed to handymen I believe the system I suggest is a goer. The ' risk ' factor seems to be the same if not less than fuel, but as suggested, the maintenance side of things could be different.

Lots of good points and worthy suggestions and food for thought.

Cheers Phill

mik01

19-08-2008, 02:12 PM

From what I understand the difference in construction and safety between a small ( cheap and nasty wot $30) portable gass cylinger and a designed to survive installed automotive type cylinder and more than significant.

Yeh we've all heard about barby cylinders blowing up in cars and being used by terrorists...... but that is a very different situation.
Apart from the fact that most of the "exploding gass cylinders in cars" involve a leaking cylinder in an enclosed space.......so the gass can not vent safely, the venting gass actulay contributes to the problem in the enclosed space.

Like many things it is all in the detail............fishing should certainly teach us about detail.

cheers

Oldboot, with the greatest of respect, please allow me to clarify your terminology. (I agree with all of your sentiments though)

the cylinder does NOT explode - what happens is the cylinder leaks (usually due to human error) in the vehicle. the gas expands, filling up the space with lpg to a point where a spark, or heat, from electrics in the vehicle ignites the gas 'cloud' - this is called a 'flash' fire and is simply the gas in the air igniting.

the layman hears this type of thing and assumes the cylinder 'explodes' (ruptures).

a classic case comes to mind - gent went to servo, got his cyl filled. put it on the back seat where it rolled and fell on the floor. somehow the valve opened enough to leak.
he smelled the gas, but by that time it had leaked so much the atmosphere in the vehicle was combustible. he hit the electric window button and ignited the gas.
no ruptured cyl occurred and no 'explosion' occurred.

its just a pet hate of mine when the media go on about 'cylinders exploding' and it becomes standard lingo.

Phil - you can achieve what you want to do - just be aware that you are engaging a totally custom job and must use all appropriate experts along the way if you wish to be covered by insurance and appropriate regulatory bodies.
converting any engine to gas is not new - modifying a 6m boat to take underfloor tanks, venting and pipework I reckon would negate any future dollar savings over your current setup unfortunately.

or you trade off with a dual fuel setup - exposed lpg tank and cutover to petrol when that runs out - much cheaper to install, save on petrol costs and still maintain some of your range.

or you go totally lpg and suffer reduced range.

marco

19-08-2008, 04:25 PM

i think its time to move on from this - I clarified my comments on this one. "the cyl is 'designed' to vent and burn off without doing harm to anyone"

at any rate - who in their right mind are going to stand around when their boat is on fire???

I think you are being a little precious about this one comment Marco.

any idiot has an appreciation of lpg cos it is a typical bbq fuel - any idiot knows the basics - ie it burns cold if you stick your hand in the stream, it is highly flammable, don't smoke or expose to naked flame when operating gas.

I hardly think my comment will entice people to stand around next to burning cylinders and toast marshmallows.

I am not scared of lpg - I just give it a healthy dose of respect.
mate it is the idiots that are the problem . take the console operator from carina who checked the underground lpg tank dip , couldnt see it so used his lighter . he used to have pretty good dreadlocks and he was supposed to be trained properly .

people read stuff and believe it so if old mate on ausfish says a venting and burning gas cylinder will be no harm to anyone then someone might just hang around and toast there marshmellows .

if a tank is venting and burning off , how do you know the valve has not been damaged ? the thing is you dont know and as you said , give it a healthy dose of respect .

the point is lpg has the potential to be bloody dangerous and someone who has the knowledge you do should be careful about what they say is ok .

if you have seen as i have just how stupid the general public can be towards dangerous goods then you would not have such a condesending attitude .

as you said move on .

mik01

19-08-2008, 10:49 PM

mate it is the idiots that are the problem . take the console operator from carina who checked the underground lpg tank dip , couldnt see it so used his lighter . he used to have pretty good dreadlocks and he was supposed to be trained properly .

people read stuff and believe it so if old mate on ausfish says a venting and burning gas cylinder will be no harm to anyone then someone might just hang around and toast there marshmellows .

if a tank is venting and burning off , how do you know the valve has not been damaged ? the thing is you dont know and as you said , give it a healthy dose of respect .

the point is lpg has the potential to be bloody dangerous and someone who has the knowledge you do should be careful about what they say is ok .

if you have seen as i have just how stupid the general public can be towards dangerous goods then you would not have such a condesending attitude .

as you said move on .

condescending attitude hey???? hmmm...

I have responded to Phil's requested info - thats it from me on this subject.
(ya try to help out and look what ya get called...)

out.

2DKnBJ

19-08-2008, 11:32 PM

Phil

Your on the right track with the vertical trim tabs although they don't have to be hydrolic.When i was racing boats we had a small fin either side of the hull which would make it turn as if it was on rails.
Find out when the next race meet is on at Round Mountain (Cabarita) for the Jet Boats and have a look at their set up.

Cheers Dazza

Lucky_Phill

20-08-2008, 10:49 AM

Thanks Darren, I have been to the jetboat racing a couple of times. Unreal !!!!

Don't know if I would be into " flipping " too much though :)

phill

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timddo

20-08-2008, 11:08 AM

Can't we use 9kg bottles from bunnings and exchange new ones every trip.

No problems with rusty bottles then

STUIE63

20-08-2008, 11:11 AM

Just my thoughts the concept sounds good but if you ever tried to sell the boat then it might be a bit hard to sell as it would reaaly be an orphan
Stuie

wirlybird

12-12-2011, 02:32 PM

Resurrect an oldie

I have been looking into this for a bit now and found out that there may be a better solution using forklift bottles $19 for 15 kg= approx 7.5lt they are aluminum bottles and will be continually changed it will give you a short time running but the highest amount of fuel consumption happens when your warming your engine up so even if your running 2 bottles i think you can see some benefit.

I would however have to run the old carby version that’s less fuel efficient on my 454 so i think I’m splitting hairs

some cheap gas conversions getting around

http://store03.prostores.com/servlet/nashfuel/the-84/GMC-454-V8-PROPANE/Detail

12-12-2011, 08:11 PM

Wirlybird,

About 2 years ago I spent about 4 days pursuing the LPG concept through all manner of state and federal Gov departments with the intent of setting up for installations here in Vic.

I essentially had a green light to set it up although there were going to be some hurdles to overcome, but not impossible at all.

Forklift bottles was an early on idea which I rejected due to the increased risk of a leak occuring due to incorrect fitment or worn rubber seals from the repeated changeover of tanks. It's a great idea on the surface but I don't think its safe long term.

As a whole, the concept is viable, do-able and in my opinion no more explosive than petrol. Obviously installation requires efficient bilge clearing systems and a gas detector at the lowest part of the hull.

Injection LPG would be the best setup but that would require a computer for carb engines plus the cost of the injection system which would in most cases very likely make it unviable.

oldboot

12-12-2011, 09:43 PM

As I may have previoulsy mentioned, I think the main obsticle is the fact that the whole boating industry and market is far from progressive, and inherantly tight as the proverbial fish's

The fact that the entire brisbane ferry system runs on compressed natural gass proves that the concept is viable in larger boats.
Running down market though, I think the scales of economy start to fail.

Afterall who is going to cough up for an LPG installation at extra cost for a bot that may only get out on the water a hand full of times a year.

Now here is a novel thaught,
In japan they market compact generators that run on several diaposable butane cans.
There is a decent sized portable generator being offered on the australian market that runs on 9KG and similar gass bottles.

It would certainly be viable to use the same arrangement to run small say 6Hp & less outboards, this would remove the requirement for any installation......the outboard simply comes fitted with a flexible hose and regulator like any portable barby.

But I wont be holding my breath.

cheers

rando

13-12-2011, 12:04 AM

I put up this same question (gas powered outboards)some time ago.
From memory most responses were along the lines of "are you nuts"!
But I have always believed it will become an option some time.
One Idea that occurred to me was build the gas tanks into a pod or in transom area so the gas is stored outside the hull.
I realise this creates a weight distribution problem, but i am sure that can be solved also.

wirlybird

13-12-2011, 05:35 AM

raging thunder charter boats in the Whitsundays ran gas powered outboards until they fell off the back of the boat so it can and has been done the big question is how high is the petrol price going to go in the long term???

FNQCairns

13-12-2011, 06:00 AM

I don't think it's do able in the real world yet unless on a displacement hull or if planing hull a short haul boat like a typical ski boat gets used for.

Works well on cars because rolling resistance is small esp around town, with fishing boats often constantly in the red on an induction pressure measuring vacuum gauge the fuel efficiency will be worse than that seen on vehicles, LPG is today no longer cheap enough to offset (now it is also regulated to stay expensive), throw in inspections, regulated lifespan of tanks/fittings, aluminum heads and work brittleness LPG seems to cause them...petrol is cheaper.

until petrol skyrockets anyway.

13-12-2011, 06:08 AM

As has been mentioned its not really viable on smaller craft. Regulations state that the lpg cylinders cannot be below decks but that can be worked around. The fuel usage on a small recreational craft would not justify the cost of the system. And in particular, where to place the cylinder on a small craft? is a real problem.

There are issues surrounding the supply of lpg to moored vessels with marinas not wanting to put in pumps until they saw numerous boats with lpg and of course those wanting lpg wont do it till the pumps are installed. This problem I have resolved.

Lpg outboard conversions was patented by a fellow only 5km does the road from me. If you google lpg outboards you find a link to an archived transcript of an ABC interview with the guy. It never took off for him. He has since then died.

The main problem I found was those that own boats in the 25ft class and larger don't typically care too much about fuel usage so are not particularly inclined to want to reduce fuel costs although lpg doesn't go stale like petrol does so there is a big plus right away.

I am in the process of acquiring a larger inboard cruiser which will be used as a test case apart from also being a recreational boat.

With the review of the marine regs underway in Victoria I was asked by the oversight team to put my case forward with regard to lpg powered vessels and have what I needed written into the regs so it was there and ready to go. I could have had it written into the regs thus removing the need for individual approval of my 'out of regulations' request. I refused because each case (for actions outside of the regulations) is assessed individually and I didn't want my time and effort in designing the whole system put into legislation for anyone to then use for themselves. If there was to be a commercial aspect to this, why make it easy for others to copy my lead?

So here in Vic I am more or less ready to go with setting up systems but it's on the back burner for now. Ive not looked at the regs interstate.

Cheers

wirlybird

13-12-2011, 09:01 AM

Im surprised how much of a hot topic this is but i guess you chew allot more fuel on the water than you do in a car so it’s only logical.

BM if it’s ok are you able to PM me some details, link or schematics of how an injected system works. The Carb version is pretty strait forward it’s the injected system that i don’t have a grasp of.

13-12-2011, 10:17 AM

Hi mate. May be easier just to call me. 0419787986

oldie

13-12-2011, 01:43 PM

I know a guy who is a qualified gas installer and has been doing it since it first came out, he has fitted out the fleet of Malibu wakeboats at Stoney Park Telegraph point with LPG pretty sure the tanks are fitted behind the rear lounge. My old man told me this ages ago

wirlybird

13-12-2011, 06:43 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiCT7cT_RUE

ha ha look at the trim tabs cheap bastard

SUPERDAFF

13-12-2011, 10:46 PM

SAY WHAT ??
Old Boot old soldier, old sailor, old son, old coee cobber, buddy digger pal ... I think you'll find that the City Cat ferries and monos all run on diesel ... Perhaps you might have meant to say around half of Brisbane's buses run on natural gas.
Regards
SUPERDAFF

[QUOTE=oldboot;1335015]As I may have previoulsy mentioned, I think the main obsticle is the fact that the whole boating industry and market is far from progressive, and inherantly tight as the proverbial fish's

The fact that the entire brisbane ferry system runs on compressed natural gass proves that the concept is viable in larger boats.
Running down market though, I think the scales of economy start to fail.

(etc)

cormorant

14-12-2011, 12:59 AM

Anyone see the news and the plumbers van that went bang? 2nd one in the last couple of years and this one cost the bloke his life. The previous one the blokes wee lucky as with remote unlocking I think.

Can't believe after the first one and all the warnings blokes are still carrying gasses in enclosed vehicles not in external cabinets- My assumption. Not sure it was a faulty gas vehicle van or not but very sad either way.

wirlybird

14-12-2011, 05:44 AM

very sad indeed but that was oxy not lpg i believe

14-12-2011, 05:53 AM

Yep, apparently had 7 bottles on board. Oxy, acetylene, refridgerant gases. Hopefully the poor blokes boss goes to jail. I hear that's on the cards.

cormorant

14-12-2011, 09:14 AM

I don't know the full story but all the plumbers do XX hours of professional training every year and get the newsletters which all had the warnings and so on in em. So boss goes to goal and the bloke who should have known better and was a professional knowing he was doing wrong lost his life but didn't contribute? I am assuming the guy was a plumber not just a labourer with the van overnight. Not saying the boss shouldn't go down but with the publicity the other accidents have had makes you wonder. If the bloke was a contractor and said his van was a suitable vehicle - well it all gets murky as in my career as a professional I had to ensure everything was kosher especially the obvious compliance ones and insurers wouldn't cover a claim if I was negligent. A nighmare for everyone involved.
Aecetelyne or lpg - same result just a different scale of damage and power/ shockwave - not pretty