Analyzing Fishing Techniques

[Poodroo]

As recent as last Saturday I headed out on a disappointing yet very enjoyable fishing session at Mud Island with my 10 year old daughter as deckie for the day. Meeting up with Scalem and For Steve as his deckie in his boat at the ramp I followed from Manly to Mud Island in what was to be an uneventful and relatively quick journey in a following sea with a southwest wind. A little rougher than I would have liked but yet not uncomfortable I set my first drift up in my usual location on the northern side of the island around 5:30am. One of the things that keeps us fishermen and women enticed to going back out is the air of mystery that surrounds fishing and not knowing just how well we are going to do out there but we all live in hope that we are going to come home with the goods on the day. Now this was the day where I would lock horns with what I think was probably the largest snapper I have ever had the pleasure of fighting at Mud. My personal best to date was a 74cm snapper but this fish felt twice as big peeling braid off right down to the backing on the first run. Long story short I got busted off by this brute.

Now what I wanted to achieve in this thread is to once again share with my fellow Ausfish members and give all out there a chance to analyze what may or may not have been the cause for me losing this fish. Never know but it might just help others including myself to perhaps land a fish equal or bigger than this one. I was fortunate that my daughter started filming me working the lure just prior to hooking up so the whole thing was captured quite well on video considering a 10 year old shot the footage in quite bumpy conditions so I applaud her efforts for doing such a good job. Now before we watch the video that I have tried to analyze time and time again I thought I would share what gear I was using on the day.

. Rod :- Pflueger 7 foot one piece Trion Artificial bait series 2-5 kg light/fast action graphite plastics rod.

. Reel :- Penn Applause 4000

. Braid :- Platypus Super Braid 16 lb

. Leader :- FC Rock 12 lb

. Jighead :- 1/6th TT with 4/0 Gamakatsu strong wire hook

. Type of knot jighead to leader :- Loop (Which is where the failure occured... ended up with the typical wishbone where the line broke right at the jighead)

When the fish hit I realized quickly that the drag was probably too tight and I feared a bust off so I released a tiny amount of drag to prevent this from happening thinking I would just have to play it more. The second run once again made me realize that this fish was probably still going to bust me off so I once again loosened the drag a little more. I started to panic at this stage too because I was down to backing and needed to retrieve some line but the weight of the fish was peeling line off even when it wasn’t going for one of its big runs so I wasn’t winning in any hurry.
After watching the clip over and over countless times I still have a lot of “what if?” kinds of questions so I thought I would let you all see the clip and help me to analyze it.
1/ Was the fish simply too big for the gear I was using?
2/ Does anyone feel that they would have probably lost this fish as well under the same circumstances?
3/ After analyzing the video footage was there anything that I may have done wrong resulting in the loss of the fish?
4/ Would anyone have done anything different?

Fishing is definitely a hobby that requires the best techniques in order to firstly target and hook up a fish but there is also a lot that can be said for the techniques required to landing it. Some of you may have seen the video in Scalem’s original thread in the reports estuary section of the forum but a lot of you may not have. Please help by watching, listening, and giving constructive comments and try not to laugh too hard at my daughter being a goose with her running commentary. Enjoy!
Hopefully we can all learn from this thread and have more success with our fishing in the future.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y55O9Hxp4kA




Regards,

Poodroo

[PinHead]

bloody hell Andrew..smaller font will ya.

[Poodroo]

bloody hell Andrew..smaller font will ya.

Lol Greg. Gee you are quick. I just did a Word Document and pasted it over and posted the thread. Just realized the font came out too big and was working at sizing down and you still got in before I did it. Hats off to your ability to repy quickly.

Poodroo

[2manylures]

Poodroo, when you say "loop knot" could you please explain as I don't use a lot of different knots & aren't familiar.

[Poodroo]

Poodroo, when you say "loop knot" could you please explain as I don't use a lot of different knots & aren't familiar.

If you go to the animated knots section http://www.ausfish.com.au/knots/ have a look at the perfection loop which is close to the knot I have been using.


Poodroo

[2manylures]

I'm a goose. Knot had nothing to do with the break. It was still intact.

[slyman]

How full was your spool Poodroo? You mentioned you are using a 4000 size reel which would hold quite a bit of braid with a bit of backing, but you also mention that you were down to your backing.

There was an article by webby in a past issue of bush and beach. January 2008 its in, just dug it out. Article is called effects of line load on drag, page 12. I'll just quote from his article...

A full spool will revolve slower and less often than a partially loaded one.

The greater force required to turn a smaller diameter will result in less controllable drag, there being little adjustment difference between full on and full off drag.

Most failures dont occur at the end of long line disappearing runs,, it usually happens in the first 20mts of the run as... the load suddenly comes on to the reel.

This is because of inertia, which means that its harder to get the spool turning that to keep it turning.

The way it works is, your spool is a circle, but in engineering terms its a lever.

A fish pulls line from the circumference of the reels line load, the distance between the circumference of the line load and the centre of the spool is the effective diameter or the radius of that circle.

That radius is the effective length of the lever that the fish can use to pull line from the reel.

The longer the lever the less problem you experience with inertia.

In cases where the line load drops significantly it is sometimes advisable, if the drag setting on a full spool is close to the breaking point of the line, to back the drag off a little to prevent the escalating drag pressure of the smaller-lever principle stated earlier, before pushing the line beyond its limits.

So I think what might have happened then was that because the fish took a lot of line, down to your backing, this meant that the depth of line on your spool was significantly reduced, and so the length of the "lever" was also reduced, which in turn meant that for more line to come off, a greater amount of inertia was needed, which in turn meant that the pressure exerted on your line was greater than the breaking strain of your 12lb leader.

So the first couple of runs, no problem, the lever length is fine, but when it goes again for the third run and you get busted, maybe the lever length is too short and requires too much force to get the drag slipping, it breaks within a second or two of starting that next run.

[Leighton]

with Sly on this, I would not have thought you would run out of line or got down to your backing.
On your jig head, not to raise the TT vs Nitro battle but lately, not sure if its a bad batch but I have been having issues with my leader ( 10lbs Yamatoyo or Nitlon ) pulling through the eye of the jig head. On more occasions than I can remember I have cast out only to see the jig and plastic fly into the distance. I have also had my perfection loop snap for the same reason, my guess is the leader is pinched and cutting of the leader has resulted.
I now re crimp all my jig heads prior to using them

[Poodroo]

I'm a goose. Knot had nothing to do with the break. It was still intact.

No the knot did not fail, the leader broke at the jighead leaving me what I call a wishbone which looks like this.

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t315/Poodroo/P8020003.jpg


How full was your spool Poodroo? You mentioned you are using a 4000 size reel which would hold quite a bit of braid with a bit of backing, but you also mention that you were down to your backing.

There was an article by webby in a past issue of bush and beach. January 2008 its in, just dug it out. Article is called effects of line load on drag, page 12. I'll just quote from his article...

A full spool will revolve slower and less often than a partially loaded one.

The greater force required to turn a smaller diameter will result in less controllable drag, there being little adjustment difference between full on and full off drag.

Most failures dont occur at the end of long line disappearing runs,, it usually happens in the first 20mts of the run as... the load suddenly comes on to the reel.

This is because of inertia, which means that its harder to get the spool turning that to keep it turning.

The way it works is, your spool is a circle, but in engineering terms its a lever.

A fish pulls line from the circumference of the reels line load, the distance between the circumference of the line load and the centre of the spool is the effective diameter or the radius of that circle.

That radius is the effective length of the lever that the fish can use to pull line from the reel.

The longer the lever the less problem you experience with inertia.

In cases where the line load drops significantly it is sometimes advisable, if the drag setting on a full spool is close to the breaking point of the line, to back the drag off a little to prevent the escalating drag pressure of the smaller-lever principle stated earlier, before pushing the line beyond its limits.

So I think what might have happened then was that because the fish took a lot of line, down to your backing, this meant that the depth of line on your spool was significantly reduced, and so the length of the "lever" was also reduced, which in turn meant that for more line to come off, a greater amount of inertia was needed, which in turn meant that the pressure exerted on your line was greater than the breaking strain of your 12lb leader.

Thanks for that and it does make sense. Another theory is the force that is consistently on the weakest point being near the eye of the jighead may have eventually weakened it enough to finally cause it to snap.


Poodroo

[slyman]

with Sly on this, I would not have thought you would run out of line or got down to your backing.
On your jig head, not to raise the TT vs Nitro battle but lately, not sure if its a bad batch but I have been having issues with my leader ( 10lbs Yamatoyo or Nitlon ) pulling through the eye of the jig head. On more occasions than I can remember I have cast out only to see the jig and plastic fly into the distance. I have also had my perfection loop snap for the same reason, my guess is the leader is pinched and cutting of the leader has resulted.
I now re crimp all my jig heads prior to using them

I've noticed on the TT's sometimes there is a small gap where the eye is formed, I suppose its possible that the line had been rubbing through that small gap and put a small cut into it. I dont use a loop knot so my line doesn't have as much play through the eye, I prefer to use a Palomar Knot, which gives me a double through the eye.

[slyman]

Just had another look at the video, around the 25 second mark I was able to pause it and get a look at your spool, it looks about half full at that stage, but there is still nearly 1 minute and 45 left of the footage left and some more line burning to happen.

[bluefin59]

I have no idea why you lost him mate but that was a good fish mate what a shame you didnt get him , i thought you had him forsure after that third bit of a run. It just happens some times i guess maybe what steve said about the jighead might be a clue as he was runnig hard away from you for quit a few runs and that do have a small open end at the back . But the video was great anyway your daughter did a great job ....matt

[Leighton]

I've noticed on the TT's sometimes there is a small gap where the eye is formed, I suppose its possible that the line had been rubbing through that small gap and put a small cut into it. I dont use a loop knot so my line doesn't have as much play through the eye, I prefer to use a Palomar Knot, which gives me a double through the eye.
did a quick search and trid the palomar knot, seem to lock down well.
Will try it in the future although feeding the double through the eye of the jig in larger leaders could be an issue??

[Poodroo]

Just had another look at the video, around the 25 second mark I was able to pause it and get a look at your spool, it looks about half full at that stage, but there is still nearly 1 minute and 45 left of the footage left and some more line burning to happen.

I know it looks like there was a lot of line but there wasn't really. Would have been a bit much to ask of the daughter to get in closer to the reel. The video quality is okay but not the best. The backing is a pinkish colour and I could see it coming through which is what had me in a panic to get some line back. Scalem made a good point that I probably should have dropped the rod angle a little when the fish was running because by having the rod up causes more drag and strain on that weak point which also makes sense. Not sure if it would have still busted me off but I held the rod up to keep the tension on him because I have also had instances where the fish managed to spit the hook because of not enough pressure.


Poodroo

[castlemaine]

. Please help by watching, listening, and giving constructive comments and try not to laugh too hard at my daughter being a goose with her running commentary. Enjoy!
Hopefully we can all learn from this thread and have more success with our fishing in the future.
Regards,

Poodroo


Great commentary. I can't add much but I learnt heaps. Thanks for a great post. Cheers, 8-)

[eotbmg]

Hey Drew
Bad luck mate. Are you 100% sure that was a snapper???
As you know your good ol Unka and i have done ok on the knobs occasionally, we dont fish for them with anything under 30lb main line braid, generally jig man or something similar, as we find the smallest diameter braid we can put on the reel, results in more line capacity. Realistically there is not enough difference in line diameter between your 16 pound platypus and my 30 or 40 pound jig man to fish light. This therefore allows you to fish your reel at a higher drag setting with CONFIDENCE. No shifting drag nobs etc, set it right and leave it. Also we fish 40 pound leader, this will put off smaller fish but will allow you to land bigger fish like the one you hooked. The cobes we recently got were all on our snapper gear, 30 main line 40 leader and landed cobes to 35 kilos. Fish heavier and you will have better chances at the ones that do get away!!!!
Ben

[Poodroo]

Hey Drew
Bad luck mate. Are you 100% sure that was a snapper???
As you know your good ol Unka and i have done ok on the knobs occasionally, we dont fish for them with anything under 30lb main line braid, generally jig man or something similar, as we find the smallest diameter braid we can put on the reel, results in more line capacity. Realistically there is not enough difference in line diameter between your 16 pound platypus and my 30 or 40 pound jig man to fish light. This therefore allows you to fish your reel at a higher drag setting with CONFIDENCE. No shifting drag nobs etc, set it right and leave it. Also we fish 40 pound leader, this will put off smaller fish but will allow you to land bigger fish like the one you hooked. The cobes we recently got were all on our snapper gear, 30 main line 40 leader and landed cobes to 35 kilos. Fish heavier and you will have better chances at the ones that do get away!!!!
Ben

To answer your question Ben I can't be 100% sure it was a snapper but it did fight like one only alot bigger than what I am used to in the bay. I would consider using a heavier pound leader except that in the bay in shallower depths unlike in the 60+ metres of depth my uncle fishes they seem to be more shy unless you target them with light leader. I am well set up I feel for anything up to 80-90cms but still believe this was larger. It made for interesting footage anyhow.

Poodroo

[ffejsmada]

Personally, there's no way I would fish 12lb leader with 16lb braid main line.
Especially fishing for snapper.

There's your weak link!

Ok you might get some smaller fish no problem, but that big one...............gone.

With 16lb braid, I'd be fishing 20lb leader minimum.

You don't know what you're gonna tangle with, big Cobes, big snaps, big anything...............you don't want to create a weak link by using 12lb leader.

I fish 12lb leader with 4lb braid here in the river! There's no way I'd do it when there's a chance of landing a 6kg Snapper.

Cheers, Jeff

[Noiseworks]

Hey Poodroo, let your daughter know that my family and I say congratulations on the video job she did. For a young girl working a camera in a bit of swell she did well.

Noiseworks

[Why-ting]

Big snapps have teeth for crunching shells and bone ect. I have lost plenty of big snapps on 4-16lb line with 6-20lb leader after lengthy fights just from abrasion just above the jighead. Their ruggered mouths make short work on light leaders.

Some people may disagree but during a fight where a fish is steeling line like that, i would not be loosening the drag at all. I would either be wanting to up and chase or be putting some more hurt on it. But as stated above if the fish takes the jig head deep in the mouth not much is going to help you. More hurt and he wears though the line quicker. Less drag and you run the risk he gets you into structure. Catch 22 situation.

It looks and sounds to me that the teeth of this snap were more abbrasive risistant than your leader.

Cheers Whytey

[straddie]

Heya Poodroo

If this is a once off I wouldn't bother about it, could have been it inhaled the lure and one of its teeth nicely positioned itself over the line and it bit down a few times and simply pinched the line.

For Slymans scenario to be true the fish would have stopped taking line, then taken off again and broken almost immediately, if you remember? I can't tell from the video.

Some constructive critism seeing as you asked for it.
Maybe its just the camera angle but you look like you high stick alot, a good habit to get out of when you can. Drags really need to be set and left alone. "Started to panic ... and loosened the drag? or maybe went the otherway? Just my opinion but I don't think a 2 to 5kg rod is a good set up for 80 to 90cm snaps.

[straddie]

A big yes to what Why-ting is saying about chasing as well and putting more hurt on the fish.

[dogsbody]

Hey Poo I'd say that the diameter of your leader is to thin for the jighead and it's to much pressure for it. Try to get a thicker diameter in the same lb rating to help spread the load over a larger surface area. It may make a difference, otherwise you'll have to go to a heavier leader.


Dave.

[Poodroo]

Hey Poodroo, let your daughter know that my family and I say congratulations on the video job she did. For a young girl working a camera in a bit of swell she did well.

Noiseworks

Thanks Noiseworks. I will pass that onto her. She was a bit seasick as well which makes it even more remarkable I think. She got over it once the wind died down and the seas settled.

Poodroo

[webby]

Must be something wrong, with all these ????? big fish you lost of late ?????

[Poodroo]

Must be something wrong, with all these ????? big fish you lost of late ?????

I am getting frustrated let me tell you Webby but I am thinking that the leader is not up to the task. I may do as suggested and go to 20 lb leader to see what happens but I have also figured out a modified loop knot which allows the leader to go through the eye of the jighead twice which should give me twice the strength at the point of where it is breaking all the time. Will test it out next week and hopefully have something to post up.

Regards,

Poodroo

[Horse]

Bad luck on getting done over by the brute. You can't win them all and its often the one that got away that makes you keeener and look at improving your overall approach.

I have little doubt that the problem lies with the 12lb leader. It has little leeway and a small amount of wear or abrasion will result in a lost fish. That is the big question on the shallow reefs - light leader and more strikes or beefed up gear and less overall results. Its your choice but I still often use 10lb.

I do not like using loop knots on jig heads. I have watched jerkbaits in the pool and I think the action is more lifelike with the knot tied tight. With a HB the loop knot comes into its own and is worth the low knot strength compared to knots loike the Centauri or Uni. Undoubtedly your knot did not fail but may have contributed to the line wearing through by allowing a lot of movement around the hook eye area.

When using light rods and braid I keep my rod tip lower. We are often asking a lot of these rods and keeping the line of attack lower puts a lot less stress on the blank.

You are always going to lose a few fish to rub offs and abraision. In this case without chasing the fish down I think you were always going to be lucky to land it on 12lb leader. Better luck next time.

[the gecko]

I also think choice of knot is the problem. That photo of the cut leader says it all IMHO. A perfection loop is fine for HBs where you want to give it more play and run freely, but Ive never heard a loop recommended for jigheads. Just out of curiosity, where did you get the idea of tying a loop for SPs? I use locked half blood knot for all jigheads.

Id say the fish got some slack and turned its head, then turned again it another direction, creating a whiplike effect on the leader. At 200m away, you hadnt yet noticed the slight slack in the line. The whole strain is then taken on the loop knot, rather than the leader to main knot. Metal cuts thru 12 lb leader easily under acceleration.

Yes stick is a little high, but not the cause of the problem. A bit more hurt on the fish might have been a help. I used a scale to test drag settings for a few months, now I know them by feel. If you knew your drag was 1/3 of the line weight, youd be confident enough to give the fish a little curry.

12lb is too light. You gambled and lost with 12lb, Id agree with 20lb as a good choice.

Still, dont overanalyze it mate, get out there again and get revenge. Thats the best cure.

cheers
Andrew

[CreelReaper]

Hey Poodroo,
Bad luck mate, I feel for you. Just a few thoughts and my 2 cents worth. There has been some great advice given above. We at work used to test lines for IGFA and ANSA certification occasionally and we also used to check lines vs knot type. It was interesting to note the performance of a line with different knots. We also noticed that the tolerences of knot strength depended on how elastic the line was. Low stretch generally gave just at or below rated capacity. Very rarely did we get close to 90% on any braid. It was also clearly evident that on some lines extra wraps could drastically reduce performance. Also, for mine, it is simple mechanics that if the spool diameter is reduced by 1/3 then the drag performance could also effected by up to that. We also used to do a bit of playing around with our own reels and found that in some reels the drag was affected by up to around 50%. That would mean that at full spool a setting of 3 - 4lb on 12lb would change to 6 to 8lb drag at half spool. I would definately be lowering the rod to reduce trension and adjusting the drag to suit, but maybe also looking at different leader lines with a little more stretch. I could go into the engineering principles of line radius and bending capacities but it would take too long. I hope this helps.

Cheers

Shane

[BtotheM]

Yer in a Modern Fishing Magazine i read, when snapper on plastics really took off (bout 2-3 years old).

It said NEVER use a loop, snapper have too powerful jaws and can bust them (like in ur case). So i never use one when fishing for snapper on sp's

[SummerTrance]

I dont think you should go any heavier leader while fishing in 10 metres depth in the bay. Yes, it may help you land a brute. But really how often do you get those hits while fishing around Mud. Go heavier and you will turn away lots of other nice fish. It's just the risk you take. Would that fish have hit you on 20lb leader at Mud? I guess if you just want to go there and only chase the big ones, try heavier line, but you may go a few trips catching nothing, b4 a brute hits you again.
The 77cm I got at mud a few weeks ago, was caught on 10lb fireline, 12lb FC leader and was using a perfection loop. 15 minutes later I got smoked by something bigger, buts thats just the way it goes.

[For Steve]

This is a tough one mate. The first thing that springs to mind is, if you were doing something different, would the big fish have struck? This we’ll never know - I interrogate their smaller friends but they always choose to remain silent. :speechless:

Some more thoughts…

A loop knot moving the leader through the jighead would add to the wear and tear. A Palomar knot or uni knot may have offered less wear.

Yes, it does look like you high-stick during the fight but I don’t think this caused the lost fish. To be objective, the strike at the 24sec mark appears to be quite hard remembering that braid has no stretch. In your defence, I’d say it’s a natural instinct to pull hard and high when something that big is on.

For the location and set-up, 12lb leader is a consistent performer.

If using 12lb leader, try using scales to set the drag at 4lb with the rod angled at 30 degrees from vertical and don’t change it. As mentioned earlier, the drag increases as the spool diameter decreases. With this setting, you’ve got around 8lb to play with.

We’ve thought about the idea that reduced drag put less strain on the leader, but increased drag reduces the fight time and limits the fighting ability of the fish.

You remained very calm throughout but I bet you were doing cartwheels on the inside. By the way, the camera work and commentary are excellent.

At the end of day, sometimes the big ones get away. That’s one of the things that make fishing so enjoyable and keeps us coming back for more.:beer:


Cheers
Brad

[Poodroo]

This is a tough one mate. The first thing that springs to mind is, if you were doing something different, would the big fish have struck? This we’ll never know - I interrogate their smaller friends but they always choose to remain silent. :speechless:

Some more thoughts…

A loop knot moving the leader through the jighead would add to the wear and tear. A Palomar knot or uni knot may have offered less wear.

Yes, it does look like you high-stick during the fight but I don’t think this caused the lost fish. To be objective, the strike at the 24sec mark appears to be quite hard remembering that braid has no stretch. In your defence, I’d say it’s a natural instinct to pull hard and high when something that big is on.

For the location and set-up, 12lb leader is a consistent performer.

If using 12lb leader, try using scales to set the drag at 4lb with the rod angled at 30 degrees from vertical and don’t change it. As mentioned earlier, the drag increases as the spool diameter decreases. With this setting, you’ve got around 8lb to play with.

We’ve thought about the idea that reduced drag put less strain on the leader, but increased drag reduces the fight time and limits the fighting ability of the fish.

You remained very calm throughout but I bet you were doing cartwheels on the inside. By the way, the camera work and commentary are excellent.

At the end of day, sometimes the big ones get away. That’s one of the things that make fishing so enjoyable and keeps us coming back for more.:beer:


Cheers
Brad

Thanks Brad. I believe that you and your family enjoyed fresh snapper for dinner that day. If I didn't have to go home to wash my boat and unpack I should have hung around Scalem's window looking in hope of being thrown a tasty morsel.::)
Thanks for the sentiments though. I may be heading out there again on Wednesday to try and improve my ability to look like a fisherman. :-X ;D


Poodroo

[For Steve]

I may be heading out there again on Wednesday to try and improve my ability to look like a fisherman. :-X ;D

Poodroo

LOL. Having seen the quality on that day, I would be honoured to look like a fisherman too. ;)

[NAGG]

Hi Poo ...... I haven't read the replies , but I think ( based on the break in the middle of the loop ....... wish bone effect) The relatively light leader ....... has been cut by the end of the eye of the reasonably big jig head ...... often these are quite sharp:( .... & a fine leader will jam in there & get cut

I had a 60lb leader cut by a split ring at lake Awoonga on a barra in 30 sec flat last March.......... right in the middle of the loop!

without abrasion ...... the loop knot or leader knot will fail first

Nagg

[NAGG]

I also think choice of knot is the problem. That photo of the cut leader says it all IMHO. A perfection loop is fine for HBs where you want to give it more play and run freely, but Ive never heard a loop recommended for jigheads. Just out of curiosity, where did you get the idea of tying a loop for SPs? I use locked half blood knot for all jigheads.

Id say the fish got some slack and turned its head, then turned again it another direction, creating a whiplike effect on the leader. At 200m away, you hadnt yet noticed the slight slack in the line. The whole strain is then taken on the loop knot, rather than the leader to main knot. Metal cuts thru 12 lb leader easily under acceleration.

Yes stick is a little high, but not the cause of the problem. A bit more hurt on the fish might have been a help. I used a scale to test drag settings for a few months, now I know them by feel. If you knew your drag was 1/3 of the line weight, youd be confident enough to give the fish a little curry.

12lb is too light. You gambled and lost with 12lb, Id agree with 20lb as a good choice.

Still, dont overanalyze it mate, get out there again and get revenge. Thats the best cure.

cheers
Andrew

andrew ...... I ( & heaps of others who fish plastics) fish with a loop for added action ........... Its very very common
As Poos knot broke in the middle of the knot ....... I'm putting my money on being cut by the end of the eye of the jig head

Nagg

[RAT-KING]

Hey poodroo from wat I could tell there was no fault by u! unfortunately thats fishing, theres also numerous factors u couldn't put it down to one thing! Personally ive had 50lb leaders crushed on a snelled hook by decent snaps, faulty leader material, a problem with the eye of the jig head, ur drag washers heating up or not as smooth as they were wen new, and the smaller circumfrence of the spool as slyman was saying or a mixture of all! Personally I like the uni knot any of the loops I jst dont like the look of even if they do increase the action! Any way don't loose to much sleep over it jst get outthere and and get a bigger one!
Cheers Simon

[BigE]

Poodroo


Many of the guys & Girls have given you a number of excuses which all have some merit IE type of knot , size of leader, increasing drag due to diminishing spool diameter and my personal favorite high stick position. Now while all these reason may have some merit and save you some face in front of your fellow ausfishers the real battle was lost in the first seconds of the fight. You were out SLEDGED by the princess.

poodroo you call it as a “big fish” ( bad move your fishing buddy must surly respond and she does)
princess “you’d better make this movie worth” (Classic sledge warnie would be proud)
then the princess gives you some screaming drag sounds what a gee up (she also deftly move down with the camera forcing you in to the high stick position)
these two moves have put you in two minds indecision is taking over first you say “will you do me a favour” Princess cuts you off With “will I get the net?” and forces a back down from you “not just yet” at this point poodroo your gone she has sledged you to a point where your not sure if you will land it or not. The rest is just the princess toying with you.
princess “is that hard” (she has no mercy four drunk mates couldn’t give it to you that well)
you gallantly try to gain some composure “this is what it all about” (I’m sure those words still haunt you)
princess comes back with “make this movie worth it” (she even laughs after that sledge ….. just cruel )
princess “this fish doesn’t want to be catched does it”
poodroo “ BUGGER IT” (her victory is complete and you didn’t even know it WOW she is good)
The good news is she will be worth 5 goals & 2 penalties against any opposing team.
PS keep her off my boat she is way to good at sledging for me.


Just joking
BigE

[Poodroo]

Poodroo


Many of the guys & Girls have given you a number of excuses which all have some merit IE type of knot , size of leader, increasing drag due to diminishing spool diameter and my personal favorite high stick position. Now while all these reason may have some merit and save you some face in front of your fellow ausfishers the real battle was lost in the first seconds of the fight. You were out SLEDGED by the princess.

poodroo you call it as a “big fish” ( bad move your fishing buddy must surly respond and she does)
princess “you’d better make this movie worth” (Classic sledge warnie would be proud)
then the princess gives you some screaming drag sounds what a gee up (she also deftly move down with the camera forcing you in to the high stick position)
these two moves have put you in two minds indecision is taking over first you say “will you do me a favour” Princess cuts you off With “will I get the net?” and forces a back down from you “not just yet” at this point poodroo your gone she has sledged you to a point where your not sure if you will land it or not. The rest is just the princess toying with you.
princess “is that hard” (she has no mercy four drunk mates couldn’t give it to you that well)
you gallantly try to gain some composure “this is what it all about” (I’m sure those words still haunt you)
princess comes back with “make this movie worth it” (she even laughs after that sledge ….. just cruel )
princess “this fish doesn’t want to be catched does it”
poodroo “ BUGGER IT” (her victory is complete and you didn’t even know it WOW she is good)
The good news is she will be worth 5 goals & 2 penalties against any opposing team.
PS keep her off my boat she is way to good at sledging for me.


Just joking
BigE

You don't know the half of it BigE. She exels at sledging however this time I think it was pure excitement on her part. Something I didn't mention is that she and her brother have not been out fishing all that many times and unfortunately they have never witnessed anything that big taking a plastic hence the words "This is what it is all about!"
She became my own private cheer squad on the day because she wasn't immitating the drag screaming but if you listen carefully she is saying "Reel, reel!" At that point I should have told her "I am trying but the fish is winning!" ::)
Her words "Make this movie worth it!" was once again her excitement getting the better of her. I think she wanted to see that brute more than I did which is kind of hard to imagine.

Anyway I am glad that you were joking. You had me going right up until you said "Just joking!" :P

Poodroo

[Mark Malcolm]

Hi Poodroo,

Just checked out the post and WOW!! I can only imagine what it'd be like to have on a fish of that size!!

I haven't done much bay fishing and have only caught one Snapper and few squier so am no expert on what you may have done to land this fish but just thinking about it (apoligy's if it has already been said) what length leader where you using?

It was interesting to read the difference in the smoothness and drag setting at different spool capacities!! And also the post about head shaking and this sudden force of pressure being more than your leader!!

My thoughts are that the Braid is non stretch and that we use our mono leader as a shock absorber to take a lot of bumps when landing a fish. Given that the mono has a stretch of (give or take dependent on brand etc) say 30% when wet then a 1 - 1/2 metre mono leader will stretch say 30 - 45cm.

In the last run where you get busted off I heard the drag go zzzzz pause zzzzz pause zzzzz pop. so if it where the low spool capacity resulting in increased drag pressure and if you where using a relatively short leader length then if the drag did stick it could only stretch 30 - 45cm until the entire force of the stuck drag would be imparted on the non stretch braid through the mono and eventually o where the mono line meets the jig head (given that the jig head is well and truly stuck in the fish :D ). If the leader length was 2 - 3metres (or longer) this woud have been stretch of 60 - 90cm that the fish could pull against the stuck drag resulting in a gradual application of pressure by the line to the drag system and a lesser force applying to where the leader meets the jig head.


Also in another theory someone has mentioned if the fish shaked its head creating the zzzz pause zzzz pop where the slack created by the shake has resulted in instant pressure to the jig and a bust off. If this fish can shake its head (while swimming away) say 50cm resulting in slack and then sudden pressure (to an already under pressure drag system) and if there was only 30cm of stretch in the leader then this fish would have quickly exceeded the poundage pressure required to pop the leader whereas if there was 60 - 90cm (or more) in stretch in the mono this may have been enough to slow dispurse the sudden pressure into gradual pressure to the drag system.

Also people have mentioned the join in the jig as a possible cause for the breakage in the leader. I would agree with this more if the fish was tossing and turning at the side of the boat but given that it was constant pressure from a distance the angle of the line to the jig I believe would not change enough to get the leader all the way to the bottom of the eye and cut the line and if so I believe the fight would not have lasted as long as it did.

heavier leader? would you have gotten the bite in the crystal clear waters of the bay? who knows.

I believe the combination of the drag and the head shakes may have been able to be prevented possibly by a longer leader but at the same time fish will be able to also head for cover a bit quicker and/or result in one more run than without a longer leader.

Just something to think about and my opinion.

Can't wait to get over to Mud to start catching some Snapper and can only dream of having a fish that big on the end of my line!!

Excellent commentary, camera work and a Great read!!

All the best,

Cheers,

Mark

[nuggstar]

Hi Poo ...... I haven't read the replies , but I think ( based on the break in the middle of the loop ....... wish bone effect) The relatively light leader ....... has been cut by the end of the eye of the reasonably big jig head ...... often these are quite sharp:( .... & a fine leader will jam in there & get cut

I had a 60lb leader cut by a split ring at lake Awoonga on a barra in 30 sec flat last March.......... right in the middle of the loop!

without abrasion ...... the loop knot or leader knot will fail first

Nagg
im with nagg on this. it was ither the gap in the eye being sharp and cutting ya line or the eye had a burr or nick in it to cut you off like that. i use to get it from split rings on bream lures and some of the tow points on cheap dodgy lures and jig heads. i allways check my tow points and eyes of my hooks for just this reason.

[Poodroo]

Hi Poodroo,

Just checked out the post and WOW!! I can only imagine what it'd be like to have on a fish of that size!!

I haven't done much bay fishing and have only caught one Snapper and few squier so am no expert on what you may have done to land this fish but just thinking about it (apoligy's if it has already been said) what length leader where you using?

It was interesting to read the difference in the smoothness and drag setting at different spool capacities!! And also the post about head shaking and this sudden force of pressure being more than your leader!!

My thoughts are that the Braid is non stretch and that we use our mono leader as a shock absorber to take a lot of bumps when landing a fish. Given that the mono has a stretch of (give or take dependent on brand etc) say 30% when wet then a 1 - 1/2 metre mono leader will stretch say 30 - 45cm.

In the last run where you get busted off I heard the drag go zzzzz pause zzzzz pause zzzzz pop. so if it where the low spool capacity resulting in increased drag pressure and if you where using a relatively short leader length then if the drag did stick it could only stretch 30 - 45cm until the entire force of the stuck drag would be imparted on the non stretch braid through the mono and eventually o where the mono line meets the jig head (given that the jig head is well and truly stuck in the fish :D ). If the leader length was 2 - 3metres (or longer) this woud have been stretch of 60 - 90cm that the fish could pull against the stuck drag resulting in a gradual application of pressure by the line to the drag system and a lesser force applying to where the leader meets the jig head.


Also in another theory someone has mentioned if the fish shaked its head creating the zzzz pause zzzz pop where the slack created by the shake has resulted in instant pressure to the jig and a bust off. If this fish can shake its head (while swimming away) say 50cm resulting in slack and then sudden pressure (to an already under pressure drag system) and if there was only 30cm of stretch in the leader then this fish would have quickly exceeded the poundage pressure required to pop the leader whereas if there was 60 - 90cm (or more) in stretch in the mono this may have been enough to slow dispurse the sudden pressure into gradual pressure to the drag system.

Also people have mentioned the join in the jig as a possible cause for the breakage in the leader. I would agree with this more if the fish was tossing and turning at the side of the boat but given that it was constant pressure from a distance the angle of the line to the jig I believe would not change enough to get the leader all the way to the bottom of the eye and cut the line and if so I believe the fight would not have lasted as long as it did.

heavier leader? would you have gotten the bite in the crystal clear waters of the bay? who knows.

I believe the combination of the drag and the head shakes may have been able to be prevented possibly by a longer leader but at the same time fish will be able to also head for cover a bit quicker and/or result in one more run than without a longer leader.

Just something to think about and my opinion.

Can't wait to get over to Mud to start catching some Snapper and can only dream of having a fish that big on the end of my line!!

Excellent commentary, camera work and a Great read!!

All the best,

Cheers,

Mark

Thanks Mark. I guess at the end of the day whether or not I got the fish in the important thing to remember is that I was out there enjoying a pleasure that people can only dream about and for that I am extremely thankful. I had the wind in what's left of my hair, my daughter for company, and the pleasure of trying to bring in a humongous fish so what more could I want? The outfit that I was using has landed me my PB Snapper of 74cms so I can only imagine just how big that one in the video clip was. :o I went to Mud again yesterday only because I knew the day would end up glassing out which it did however with tides and moon phases against me it was no surprise that the big snapper weren't going to play the game although I surprised myself and caught a nice Big Eye Trevally which accompanied me back to my place for a dinner invitation. ;D Was a nice "quiet" day on the water with the Trevally being the only fish caught all day but I would have enjoyed it even if I came home empty handed.


Poodroo

[Mark Malcolm]

Thanks Mark. I guess at the end of the day whether or not I got the fish in the important thing to remember is that I was out there enjoying a pleasure that people can only dream about and for that I am extremely thankful. I had the wind in what's left of my hair, my daughter for company, and the pleasure of trying to bring in a humongous fish so what more could I want? The outfit that I was using has landed me my PB Snapper of 74cms so I can only imagine just how big that one in the video clip was. :o I went to Mud again yesterday only because I knew the day would end up glassing out which it did however with tides and moon phases against me it was no surprise that the big snapper weren't going to play the game although I surprised myself and caught a nice Big Eye Trevally which accompanied me back to my place for a dinner invitation. ;D Was a nice "quiet" day on the water with the Trevally being the only fish caught all day but I would have enjoyed it even if I came home empty handed.


Poodroo

I couldn't agree with you more Poodroo, after work last night and inspired to get one of those monsters I headed out to Redcliffe for a solo fish for Tailor (while there still around) and Snapper. Hit the water at 3.30am and fished through til 2pm for 7 fish (3 tailor, 2 pike, 1 squire and an ugly red thing) and had a zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz of half the spool in one run of an unstoppable before I muffled it up on the second and lost him!! although not forecast for a great day it glassed out at about 9 through 2pm!! great day and with turtles, jumping bait, sight casting to tailor and visibility to 4m I couldn't think of a better place to be.

And I had my fix of adrenaline from hearing all those zzz's, now to sort out my game plan to get him in the boat :D

[Angla]

This is a really good thread and good to see the theories coming out about drag and the rest. All have good merit. If it were me, I would change the knot type to one that locks down on the eye of the Jig which would reduce any abrasion that may have happened.

It's always a matter of the mind working against the hand. The mind wants to bring the fish in quickly but the hand can feel the fighting pressure and should be allowed to back off and reduce the pressure on the tackle. Often I find myself thinking I need to bring the fish in but then I remember the fish is still green and needs to expend more energy to be ready to bring towards the boat.

Better luck next time

Chris

[Poodroo]

This is a really good thread and good to see the theories coming out about drag and the rest. All have good merit. If it were me, I would change the knot type to one that locks down on the eye of the Jig which would reduce any abrasion that may have happened.

It's always a matter of the mind working against the hand. The mind wants to bring the fish in quickly but the hand can feel the fighting pressure and should be allowed to back off and reduce the pressure on the tackle. Often I find myself thinking I need to bring the fish in but then I remember the fish is still green and needs to expend more energy to be ready to bring towards the boat.

Better luck next time

Chris

Thanks Chris. It was the main reason I started this thread because we all experience bust offs but how often is it caught on camera? I'm sure we all spit chips when we lose a good fish and rightly so. I just thought if there was any learning to be done out of my bit of footage it may help someone else to do something different and hopefully they score a PB as a result. I am determined to raise my PB above the 74cms. One day soon I hope.

Poodroo

[Poodroo]

I couldn't agree with you more Poodroo, after work last night and inspired to get one of those monsters I headed out to Redcliffe for a solo fish for Tailor (while there still around) and Snapper. Hit the water at 3.30am and fished through til 2pm for 7 fish (3 tailor, 2 pike, 1 squire and an ugly red thing) and had a zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz of half the spool in one run of an unstoppable before I muffled it up on the second and lost him!! although not forecast for a great day it glassed out at about 9 through 2pm!! great day and with turtles, jumping bait, sight casting to tailor and visibility to 4m I couldn't think of a better place to be.

And I had my fix of adrenaline from hearing all those zzz's, now to sort out my game plan to get him in the boat :D

Good stuff Marc. It gets the adrenaline pumping that's for sure. Love hearing the reel scream. Good to hear you are getting out yourself.

Poodroo

[finding_time]

Poodroo


Mate have just watched the vid and read everyones comments and i think i've come up with the reason you lost what i to would have called a snapper!


Your a crap fisherman!! Whoops bloody touretts;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D What i ment to say was , thats fishing ! At least it was only a bay snapper, imagine it was a little black marlin that you had been chasing for 2 days in terrible conditions, you have had time to clear your spread get well set and after 2 minutes it jumps off!:-[ If you had pinned this fish with a tag you would have been $7000.00 richer. Now that's a feeling that hurts! And that's fishing!

You'll drop plenty more before your through!;) It's what makes you try again:D

Ian

[Poodroo]

Poodroo


Mate have just watched the vid and read everyones comments and i think i've come up with the reason you lost what i to would have called a snapper!


Your a crap fisherman!! Whoops bloody touretts;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D What i ment to say was , thats fishing ! At least it was only a bay snapper, imagine it was a little black marlin that you had been chasing for 2 days in terrible conditions, you have had time to clear your spread get well set and after 2 minutes it jumps off!:-[ If you had pinned this fish with a tag you would have been $7000.00 richer. Now that's a feeling that hurts! And that's fishing!

You'll drop plenty more before your through!;) It's what makes you try again:D

Ian

Ian you also forgot to mention that I am a fasionable fisherman. I should have removed the balaclava to at least look better for the camera but I guess if I didn't look stupid the daughter wouldn't have been filming in the first place because she thought I looked hilarious. ::) Yeah I am not too cut up about losing the fish because as you say it wasn't a black marlin and this is just what happens when fishing. When your tourett's isn't too bad you might like to come out 4wd'ing again. :P

Poodroo

[destorman]

Bit bored this morning and came across this thread ...

Anyway, BigE I had a chuckle at your post, but more importantly you brought a very important point to my attention.

He had his daughter as Deckie!

Teaching the next generation and spending quality time with his daughter.

Well done. Congratulations !!!

I pose this for you ... if you had landed that fish, you would have felt great. Right?

What about how you would have felt if you daughter had landed it ... 100 times better? Proud?

Either way, you were out there spending quality time and teaching the next generation. For that I am sure the fishing gods will balance the books and give you a big one some time soon.

[tunaticer]

Andrew,
Have you checked the abrasion resistance and wear resistance of the particular leader you are using?

Perhaps it might be ok or perhaps it may be deteriorating slightly.

I would be stressing that particular leader for both abrasion against the hook eye and stressing it to pop off on a hook as well.

Some materials handle abrasion well but may not stand being kinked under tension as well as hoped. Similarly some materials will do fine with a loop knot and fail when clinched tight also.

Seems to me that your technique is fine enough to have mastered that particular fish, leads me to want to investigate the leader's characteristics more.

I had a problem up north last time with a FC leader I was using in 40lb, dropped down to 20lb Jinkai and did not have that problem again. Stepped back up to 40lb FC and started losing the hooks once more like you did.

Jack.

[Poodroo]

Andrew,
Have you checked the abrasion resistance and wear resistance of the particular leader you are using?

Perhaps it might be ok or perhaps it may be deteriorating slightly.

I would be stressing that particular leader for both abrasion against the hook eye and stressing it to pop off on a hook as well.

Some materials handle abrasion well but may not stand being kinked under tension as well as hoped. Similarly some materials will do fine with a loop knot and fail when clinched tight also.

Seems to me that your technique is fine enough to have mastered that particular fish, leads me to want to investigate the leader's characteristics more.

I had a problem up north last time with a FC leader I was using in 40lb, dropped down to 20lb Jinkai and did not have that problem again. Stepped back up to 40lb FC and started losing the hooks once more like you did.

Jack.

Hello Jack. The leader I used on the day was FC Rock 12lb leader which came highly recommended. I have to admit that as far as flurocarbon leader is concerned I have found it to be one of the top leaders for abrasion resistence. Bottom line on the day was I latched onto a horse of a fish that totally outclassed me because I was fishing too light and also was using a loop knot that failed under the strain at the point where it goes through the eyelet of the jighead. I have since worked out a new improved knot and stepped up to a 15lb leader. All I need now is another monster from the deep to test it out for me. I reckon I am on a winner with the way I have set up now but all the BIG fish seemed to have vacated the bay at the moment. I have considered Jinkai leader as well but have not heard too much about its invisibility to fish. Strength is good but stealth is even better.

Poodroo

[Flex]

Nice video, very well done by your daughter. As alot have said your leader is definitely to light. IMO you should never fish with lighter leader than main line. Change spools if you want to fish lighter. Theres not much difference in diameter between 20lb leader and 12lb IMO. and whether you get less fish or not on slightly heavier leader is debatable.

I'd go as far as to say you probably had a 10% chance of landing that fish, some fish are just to big for the gear you use. 90% of fishermen would have lost it too i rekon.

But one thing I generally do is put alot of pressure on a big running fish, in the first few mins then maybe back the drag off when he's at the boat and tired, but never at the start or your simply giving to much line away for free.
crank down your drag a bit while theres line on the spool. I noticed your drag was clicking a bit when you were lifting your rod to wind in. I'd say it was to loose.

You'd be surprised how much drag a good smooth 4000 reel can produce. tie your line to some scales and see how much force you can pull before it brakes to give you an idea for the future:)

But all in all, the fish was just to big IMO.

[Poodroo]

Nice video, very well done by your daughter. As alot have said your leader is definitely to light. IMO you should never fish with lighter leader than main line. Change spools if you want to fish lighter. Theres not much difference in diameter between 20lb leader and 12lb IMO. and whether you get less fish or not on slightly heavier leader is debatable.

I'd go as far as to say you probably had a 10% chance of landing that fish, some fish are just to big for the gear you use. 90% of fishermen would have lost it too i rekon.

But one thing I generally do is put alot of pressure on a big running fish, in the first few mins then maybe back the drag off when he's at the boat and tired, but never at the start or your simply giving to much line away for free.
crank down your drag a bit while theres line on the spool. I noticed your drag was clicking a bit when you were lifting your rod to wind in. I'd say it was to loose.

You'd be surprised how much drag a good smooth 4000 reel can produce. tie your line to some scales and see how much force you can pull before it brakes to give you an idea for the future:)

But all in all, the fish was just to big IMO.

Thanks. It is kind of reassuring to know that most of us would probably have lost that fish.
Yes you can hear the drag spooling off even when the fish wasn't going for a blinding run but that was more a case of sheer body weight rather than drag being too lose. Initially the drag was too tight but you heard how fast it still peeled line off the spool. I knew I was going to get busted off because the drag was too tight so you can see me backing a little bit of drag off so that it could run without snapping the line. After loosening the drag I still had it tight enough to pull in a good fish but this one was simply too big for the outfit as you say.
I know what it is like to pull in a 74cm snapper on that outfit and I know that my PB to date was not even close to being as big as this fish that got away simply by how it fought.
I had my entire reel serviced prior to that trip too and yes the Penn Applause 4000 reels have a very smooth drag. I am very happy with the performance.

Cheers,

Poodroo

[finga]

Your just jealous John.
At least Poo has a technique and you fish like me you old bugger.

Hook on line. Bung a sinker somewhere on the line then bung a dead prawn on hook.
Chuck the lot over board and then pour the coffee and break out the Sao's and vegemite and sit back and talk crap.
The only way we can improve our techniques is to take some fruitcake to have with the coffee as well as the Sao's and to remember to launch the boat.