Safe boat size for offshore Nth QLD???

[disorderly]

A query from another nth qld ausfisher has got me thinking....http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/rolleyes.gif
Just what sized boats do people venture out to the reefs in and what size do you think is adequate for this.

Now I know some that have been out 40 odd k's in a 4m tiller steer tinny powered by a 30 horse and a couple of cartons but is there a rule of thumb or is it up to the sea conditions,experience of the skipper and seaworthiness of the boat rather than just the size???

If someone asked what is the minimum sized alloy boat and motor required to safely head 40-50 km's offshore ...what would you say???

Scott

[eimeo]

it really depends on the weather.i have a haines 445f and wouldnt hesitate to go
30-40 miles if it was glassed out-weather forecast was good.i have a great deal of confidence in my boat.I suppose rule of the thumb up here in nt qld is if you want to go to the reef 60 miles out you really need a 6m boat
hope this helps
dave

[pilchardjones]

for reefs off townsville 6m IMHO.
I used to run out there (40 - 50 NM) in a 17 haines, which was safe enough if you picked the weather, but i found i just wanted some more room as you were always tripping over each other in 3 POB, and couldn't overnight comfortably. Now with a big wide 6m platey we take 4 with heaps of room. We still have to pick the weather but its less critical. Much higher freeboard and much safer i believe.
And a better family boat for the non-fishing trips.
steve

[levinge]

I'm with you Steve, with the way the conditions can change up here in NQ, a 6M would be the minimum for offshore fishing. If it get ugly you can get home with a safe ride in mind. Room wise totally agree, had horseboy and Scott_nthqld out on Sunday night and we aint small guys. My 6M boat had heaps of room and stability, so we didn't trip each other up.

[FNQCairns]

I think when the boat reaches 5.8 to 6m and above, heading offshore just get's easier, less turkey necking for everything that might cause a drama (for instance a big tourist boat wake catching you by surprise from the rear), even the simple act of pulling anchor under power is less of a potential problem area.
But most often there is a trade to be had with bigger trailer, bigger engines, more boat to clean, towing, storage, often more money tied up the rig etc.

I guess what I am trying to say is it's extremely easy and takes less seamanship to own the bigger size of boat once on the water, getting it there and storage etc alters the equation somewhat but the all round comfort that comes with a larger boat makes up for it IMO.

cheers fnq

[marty+jojo]

You could do it in a Fisher 430 tiller steer. Hahahaha.
Marty

[Scott nthQld]

Thanks Scott,

I was the one who made the initial quey, I've got a 4.85m quintrex runabout, and want to head out to the maggie shoals this w/e. I've seen others out even wider in much smaller boats. Mine has a lot of freeboard for a boat its size of about 600mm.

It's been used offshore from Wollongong and shellharbour in years gone by, but not by me (the old man used to take it out chasing tuna on the shelf).

It's not the best riding boat, but I've never felt unsafe in heavy seas off wollongong when the weasther's picked up, but here its a different kettle of fish, instead of the large rolling swells, we get short, sharp chop that gets very sloppy at times. I'm looking at heading out this Saturday if the weather holds, predictions are sitting at 0-10knts all day. I've been out around maggie in much worse (one day I was hoping to get a quick session in early and it picked up sooner to 25knt+) and always felt comfortable in the boats abilities, as long as I stay smart and drive to the conditions, and be ready for the worst I don't see a problem, even if it gets rough, I can always putt in nice and slow, taking my time, might as well chuck a couple of lures out the back if that situation arises

[lunchcutter]

yeah guys i have a 5.6mtre glass boat a 150hp evin on back no problems when i head out about 80-90 ks

[ronnien]

dont know about any where else but i have seen it glassed out a few klms past maggie island on returning from the reef & rough as guts within the bay seas up to 2-2.5 mtrs high, just something to remember.

ron.

[Wayne Holland]

It rather depends on the the design and build of the boat. Some 5 metre tinnies should not venture out of sheltered waters, by contrast a decent 5 metre RIB or its RBB cousin (Stabi /Typhoon) remain seaworthy in harsh conditions.

The feeling of safety comes from Positive buoyancy (level flotation) compared to basic flotation.

[disorderly]

It's looking like a beaut day tomorrow Scott nthQld, to head out wide but watch the gnarly big low tide around 3.30pm ....I'm going to chase a few mackies but am planning on returning around lunchtime as it's real dodgy getting in on a .2-.3 m low tide.

[soggy1]

Hey there scott nq how did you go, did you get out there, we managed to get out there again in4.5mt seajay bit worried first up at 3am out the the back of the island and there was a slight breeze we thought the weather b had got it wrong again but it seemed to be ok for us, no reds though bugger only a few macks.

[ozbee]

i would take a extra meter of boat over positive floatation any time outside in open sea.all positive flotation will do is make the hull roll like a marble after every wave. you would be far better spending your money on self draining decks and inflatable pc. just remember flotation has have to actually be in the water to be positive.

[Scott nthQld]

yeah mate headed out about 40km, no drama's at all. Got my first spaniard, though undersize, they still count dammit! Also a sailfish, still can't believe it myself, but there he was right on the end of my line.....magic

[disorderly]

yeah mate headed out about 40km, no drama's at all. Got my first spaniard, though undersize, they still count dammit! Also a sailfish, still can't believe it myself, but there he was right on the end of my line.....magic

yeah Scott,I read your report ..

It must have been pretty exciting when you realized it was a sailfish...would have got the heart pounding I reckon.http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/cool.gif

Nice work, I bet you cant wait to get out again...and days like yesterday you could just about have driven to Fiji in a Tinny..


Scott

[Wayne Holland]

i would take a extra meter of boat over positive floatation any time outside in open sea.all positive flotation will do is make the hull roll like a marble after every wave. you would be far better spending your money on self draining decks and inflatable pc. just remember flotation has have to actually be in the water to be positive.


"Roll like a Marble"
"positive flotation has to be in the water"
Whadya smok'n?
Look and learn....check out Achimedes principle. (Archimedes Born 287BC)

[ozbee]

sorry wanye but your in experience shows, a basic boat floats because of displacement not because of floatation . so you are literally saying if i fill my boat up with ping pong balls it will float higher wake up flotation only works when it is submerged below water level so all these tinnies etc with the new flotatation up the sides will float high out of the water drrrrrrr the only advantage is if filled up in a swimming pool they will float up right.

in a open sea a boat floating upright will tend to roll as each wave flows over the sides this can be more dangerous than basic floatation as a hull will tend to float upside down but stable in that direction. this is why serious fisherman do not rely on thi s as there form of saftey.

as more people these days take up being pond fisherman with the lack of experience like you it is benfical as you can paddle yoursef to the shore.

do you think this idea hasnt been around before so before you want to insult people have a little think , maybe if captain cook had a boat load of peanuts he would of not run into trouble.

[Wayne Holland]

sorry wanye but your in experience shows, a basic boat floats because of displacement not because of floatation . so you are literally saying if i fill my boat up with ping pong balls it will float higher wake up flotation only works when it is submerged below water level so all these tinnies etc with the new flotatation up the sides will float high out of the water drrrrrrr the only advantage is if filled up in a swimming pool they will float up right.

in a open sea a boat floating upright will tend to roll as each wave flows over the sides this can be more dangerous than basic floatation as a hull will tend to float upside down but stable in that direction. this is why serious fisherman do not rely on thi s as there form of saftey.

as more people these days take up being pond fisherman with the lack of experience like you it is benfical as you can paddle yoursef to the shore.

do you think this idea hasnt been around before so before you want to insult people have a little think , maybe if captain cook had a boat load of peanuts he would of not run into trouble.

Dear Oh Dear Oh Dear.........I think we had better see who said what.
Ozbee your quotes are in Blue

Firstly I was replying to the original question posted on this thread.


Ozbees First Post.

I would take a extra meter of boat over positive floatation any time outside in open sea. I think that most people would agree with you, however the difference in price between a 5.00 meter and a 6.00 meter conventional Plate boat can be between $20,000 to $30,000 which blows a lot of budgets.

all positive flotation will do is make the hull roll like a marble after every wave.
A boat whether it has absolutely no flotation or has Positive flotation will act exactly the same unless it is swamped. (no where in your post did you refer to a swamped boat)

you would be far better spending your money on self draining decks The majority of RIBs and Rbbs have either self bailing or self draining decks,

and inflatable p.c. an approved PDF.

just remember flotation has have to actually be in the water to be positive. Any boat with under floor flotation has a big % of it's Flotation in the water; swamped or not.


Ozbees Second Post.

sorry wanye but your in experience shows, a basic boat floats because of displacement not because of floatation: No argument there.

. so you are literally saying if i fill my boat up with ping pong balls it will float higher wake up flotation only works when it is submerged below water level.
Nope I am not saying anything of the sort, and yep flotation only works when it is submerged.

so all these tinnies etc with the new flotatation up the sides will float high out of the water drrrrrrr the only advantage is if filled up in a swimming pool they will float up right. No disagreement there except for the bit after the drrrrrr.

in a open sea a boat floating upright will tend to roll as each wave flows over the sides this can be more dangerous than basic floatation as a hull will tend to float upside down but stable in that direction. this is why serious fisherman do not rely on thi s as there form of saftey. Now this is where you and I will have to agree to disagree, Boats with a large % of there flotation in the sides generally float level, and are relatively stable when swamped and are more difficult to capsize compared to boats without side flotation. Providing the motor is going and the boat is moving the swamped boat will drain through the scuppers....a lot slower than you might think. In a 4.7 meter prototype Rbb which we frequently filled to overflowing, it took 60 seconds to empty from a standing start through scuppers usually associated with small commercial vessels. As a result my designer came up with a "cat flap" transom door which emptied the boat in 6 seconds. I would rather be in a boat with level flotation that stayed afloat allowing the swamped water to drain, than have a basic flotation boat capsized, with the wife and kids in the water, desperately trying to hang on to it..... I guess I just love my wife and kids.
as more people these days take up being pond fisherman with the lack of experience like you it is benfical as you can paddle yoursef to the shore.

do you think this idea hasnt been around before so before you want to insult people have a little think , maybe if captain cook had a boat load of peanuts he would of not run into trouble. The fastest growing recreational boats in the EU are RIBs..... Search and Rescue and the Military world wide are using RIBs and Rbbs, because of their inherent safety.


Any one wishing to view the web site please send me a PM.


Kind Regards Wayne Holland Developer of Typhoon Boats.
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[Apollo]

My 2c. I have been in more troubling circumstances in bigger boats than smaller ones. Before the flame throwers are lit, I better explain. The bigger the boat, the more confident you get as to the ability to get the job done in a wider circumstance. This is more about my own mental state of mine rather than the boats actual seaworthy ability. I have delivered 22 footers long distances without any issues and been beaten up in 68 footers, because I have travelled in conditions that I wouldn't take to sea in the little boat. Never have I taken boats out of any size that are I don't feel are capable of the conditions. Sometimes this has meant find a safe spot and sitting it out. I am rightly much more cautious in a smaller boat than a larger one. I guess what I am trying to say, is that because a boat is bigger, has a rep for sea qualities or is even designed for heavy conditions, it doesn't mean it SHOULD go to sea. If you as the skipper are not 100% confident in your own abilities to get you, your crew and your boat back safely, then take a safer option on the day. Skipper experience is by far the most important limitation to whether the boat is big enough to go fishing X miles off shore. Then comes boat condition/type/size, weather and time. I have known some brilliant seaman (not me) that could take very small boats out in all sorts of weather without any issues and I have seen others get in trouble in benign conditons in big boats.

Couple of other points I would like to make:

Weather - forecasts are often wrong, so plan for the worst and pray for the best.

Area - know your area including cloud formations (and what they mean), seamounts, plan B escapes, shoals, tides, etc

Fuel - ensure you got plenty. Too often you hear of people taking the less than best or safest option because they were running short of fuel. Running out of fuel crossing a bar = not good.

Time - having to get back by a certain time can sometime forces the wrong option to be taken. This may be a simple as travelling too fast for the conditions or trying to squeeze through over a bar in less than optional tides. Being late back beats being LATE.

Gear - make sure you have the right safety gear but don't rely on it to get you out of trouble. Rely on you to not get you into trouble.

Boat/motor - make sure they are in a seaworthy condition and reliable. Obviously some boats are better seaworthy designs than others. Yes, bigger and safer boats are more capable at assisting to lesser experienced skipper go fishing, but it doesn't subsitute or replace experience.

If in doubt - don't. If someone has to rescue you, then they are putting their own lives at risk.

Time to get off my soap box. I was taught by some of the best seamen going around and don't consider myself anywhere near their league. I am sure there are many excellent seamen on this site that could add more useful info.

[ozbee]

wayne while i must congratulate on your style of boat and how by giving it little displacement it will use it side floats to stabilise the simple fact is it is a very limited design to people other than harbour or surf rescue . it wouldn't even be big enough to fit a average fuel tank in also with very narrow width not much more than two meters one is getting very little boat for its size.

when i was referring to rolling i was referring to the majority of conventional monos and as a builder you would now of the limitations of side buoyancy in a conventional boat in a open sea with a swell not undoing the bungs in a calm area and blowing its virtues as the broacher shows. i wish you well with your design of boat and im sure in certain types of situations it would be very suitable but to the average jo blow i dont think so.

[Wayne Holland]

Thank you for you comments.

A long time ago a mate of mine who manufactures the superb AMF boats in N.Z. took a look at a Stabi craft and said "who are going to buy these things". Twenty years on and Stabi build 600+ boats a year and there are 6 other manufactures of pontoon boats doing between 50 to 200 a year.

Yes there is a market in the commercial sector but by in large they are purchased by recreational fisherman.

Lets face it no one would purchase a pontoon boat for its sleek looks, its about function over form, they are stable; they are safe; they are sea worthy, they ride well and are forgiving in indifferent conditions. Its not about the size of the boat it's about the design that gives the skipper confidence when things turn nasty.

There is a lovely story, probably an urban legend, that some years ago when Stabies were really ugly, there was a rather sniffy offshore NZ power boat fishing club where big boats were the norm because of the distance travelled to and from the fishing grounds, in fairly average conditions , that all changed when they had fisherman rocking up to join the club who owned small Stabis..... a lot of richies looked down their very long noses at the up starts.

You mentioned fuel tank size...the 5.00 meter has a 100L tank ..5.5 a 120L..6.00 a 200L tank. The 6.00 has a 2.5 external beam and a 2.00m internal beam.
Other species are on the web site.

Regards Wayne.