110 volt to 240 volt?

[Offshore^Jack]

If i import a boat from the states with 110 volt,does the whole wiring system need to be re-wired to 240 volt or is there some kind of adaptor i can fit that converts it to 240?

[foxx510]

Are you saying it has a generator or inverter that puts out 110v?

[Offshore^Jack]

Hi,thanks for your reply.

Yes,the boat will have a genset,fridge,microwave etc.

They're wired at 110 volt i think over there.

So when i plug it in at the marina,it connects to 240 volt with different connectors/outlets.

I'm not sounding like a real tool am i?

[foxx510]

My opinion would be that you would be better off leaving all the 110v gear behind and getting whatever money you can for it, and refitting it with 240v gear here. Stepdown transformers to convert the marina power are massively heavy and expensive if you are running things like fridges and microwaves. That's what I'd do, others might have a different opinion though!

[HH565L]

We recently faced the same problem with a 43ft Searay. Easiest and cheapest fix was to leave all appliances atc at 110VAC and fit a transformer with a 240VAC primary and a 110VAC secondary. The shore power will connect to the primary of the transformer, 110VAC will be delivered from the secondary of the transformer to all the applinces.

To size the transformer correctly, you will need to fire up the gen-set and how much current draw you have with all appliances on. Then post that information here or give it to a transformer supplier for sizing and pricing. Any electrically qualified person should be able to do the installation for you.

The only issue you will have then is if and when any of your 110VAC appliances fail, you will need to import replacements from the US.

Hope that helps.

Regards,
Spiro

[reelchippy]

We recently faced the same problem with a 43ft Searay. Easiest and cheapest fix was to leave all appliances atc at 110VAC and fit a transformer with a 240VAC primary and a 110VAC secondary. The shore power will connect to the primary of the transformer, 110VAC will be delivered from the secondary of the transformer to all the applinces.

To size the transformer correctly, you will need to fire up the gen-set and how much current draw you have with all appliances on. Then post that information here or give it to a transformer supplier for sizing and pricing. Any electrically qualified person should be able to do the installation for you.

The only issue you will have then is if and when any of your 110VAC appliances fail, you will need to import replacements from the US.

Hope that helps.

Regards,
Spiro

Spot on that would easy be cheapest way.cheers

[PADDLES]

just watch the frequency jack. most of the planet (including us) uses 50Hz, the seppos like to be different and use 60Hz. it's been too long since i've looked at what happens with changing frequencies but i think it can cause overheating in electrical devices. otherwise a step down tranny will work well and they'll be reasonably easy to source as well.

[TheRealAndy]

IF there are no 110V appliances, then you can utilise the existing wiring. 110V is typically rated higher than 240V. You will need to change any breakers/fuses to suit 240V. Just be warned though, the US use different colour wiring. In AU we use Brown or Red for active, Blue or Black for neutral. In the US, White is neutral, Black is active.

[Offshore^Jack]

Thanks for all your help,it's much appreciated:)

Spiro,Transformer was the word i was looking for instead of adaptor but i was on the right track with transforming 110 into 240 without a full rewire.

The next question is,who does this type of work and where do i buy the transformer from?

Where the power lead plugs into the boat,the connection point on the boat will be different i think.

[TheRealAndy]

There is a mob that make these transformers called PJM or PEter Martin Salses. The last contact number I had was 32528522. They were at 20 Maud Street Newstead (QLD).

I have bought several isolation transformers from them, very rugged units.

[PinHead]

if ever you decide to sell the boat here, you will have to change wiring and appliances etc to suit Aust. Standards so why nto do it now. Not sure about insurance if it does not meet our standards.

[Offshore^Jack]

Pinhead,are you saying i should rewire the whole boat and fit a new Aussie fridge,microwave etc.

What's a full re-wire worth,a few grand i'm guessing?

It has aircon and heating also and a kohler genset.

[PinHead]

I am just saying that if you decide to sell the boat and it has high voltage on board then it MUST comply to Aust. Standards.

[HH565L]

I'm not sure what the statutory requirements are (if any at all) and or if they are enforced. I know of several boats that have been modified using the transformer idea and some of them have been sold more than once. BTW, I've been told on several occasions that US standards for marine wiring leave our Australian standards for dead!

With regards to the wiring, the short technical answer is this. The transformer itself does nothing other than accept 240V shore power and convert it to the 110V the boat is already wired for. There are no additional loadings and therefore the existing cabling/wiring is not affected or compromised in any way.

The shore power plug will need to be changed to reflect current standards but in my opinion this is worth doing anyway as it will allow the use of a standard extension cable for shore power connection.

With regards to frequency, it is higher frequencies that create greater amounts of heat so there should be nothing to worry bout there. What you will notice however is that the electric motors inside the fridge, air-conditioning system, microwave etc will run approx 20% slower because of our 50hz supply.

The other thing to thing about is how you intend to use the shore power. If it's used primarily to keep the fridge running for example and/or if you only expect very limited use of the appliances whilst moored, then any need for concern is significantly reduced.

As an additional safety what I would suggest is that when you have the transformer installed, get the installer to place a contactor on the primary side and switch that through the ignition eg when the ignition is on, the transformer primary is disconnected from supply thereby adding yet another level of safety.

Regards,
Spiro

[Offshore^Jack]

Thanks for all your help.

I will buy the transformer and have it fitted and anything else thats needs re-wiring and change over the power point for the marina power lead.

Cheers

[MarkDiver]

O-J
I had the same dilemma with an imported Bayliner hence the previous Aussie owner never used any of the appliances since new!! That sounds more like a tool to me, rather than your asking advice.
I bought a stepdown transformer from RS online (search RS components) and everything worked fine. Worth buying the american plugs and fitting on the 110V appliances so that you or future owner doesn't accidentally plug into 240V outlet. Only downside is that they're heavy but they are mobile so you can leave at home when required. Your fridge is probably dual voltage 12v/110v so you can run off both shore and battery power hence doesn't make sense to me replacing a good fridge. Seek professional advice for installation please.
Good luck!

[TheRealAndy]

With regards to frequency, it is higher frequencies that create greater amounts of heat so there should be nothing to worry bout there. What you will notice however is that the electric motors inside the fridge, air-conditioning system, microwave etc will run approx 20% slower because of our 50hz supply.

Spiro

Thats not quite right. It all depends on the type of equipment. Fortunately most stuff these days will run on 50hz and 60hz. But, certain types of motors and transformers will overheat if used with the incorrect frequency. The great thing about global economy is that nearly all manufacturers design equipment to run on both frequencies.

[HH565L]

What part of that is not quite right?

Motor speed is directly related to frequency. If for example you take a 4 pole 50hz motor with a synch speed of 1500rpm and connect it to a 60Hz supply it will spin at 1800rpm given by 1500 x 60/50. The reverse applies when you take a 60hz motor and connect it to a 50hz supply, ie speed reduces proportionately.

It is also true the motors and cables will run hotter at higher frequencies.

Regards,
Spiro

[PADDLES]

you're right hh, for 3 phase motors. i dont think frequency influences speed in a single phase motor.

andy is correct too, a lot of appliances these days are made for both frequencies, but it'd be worth checking them all out for compliance.

with regards to statutory requirements, the voltage level doesn't matter, there's heaps of 110VAC installations out there, it was a fairly standard control voltage at one stage. what does matter however is the method of installation and whether it complies with AS3000, definitely check that out because if a 240VAC or 110VAC fault causes your ship to burn to the waterline and the investigators find your installation is no good, you're going to be kissing your insurance claim goodbye. they won't care about the us standard. by law here in australia, your installation has to comply with australian wiring rules. i'd pay a little cashola for a 240V electrician (not a boat or auto 12/24V electrician) to check and certify the installation, it could pay off in the long run.

[TheRealAndy]

What part of that is not quite right?

Motor speed is directly related to frequency. If for example you take a 4 pole 50hz motor with a synch speed of 1500rpm and connect it to a 60Hz supply it will spin at 1800rpm given by 1500 x 60/50. The reverse applies when you take a 60hz motor and connect it to a 50hz supply, ie speed reduces proportionately.

It is also true the motors and cables will run hotter at higher frequencies.

Regards,
Spiro

You are correct about the motor speed.

However, as far as heat is concerned this depends purely on the construction of the transformer/motor. In cheap transformers such as plug packs, the iron core is designed to a cost, and hence a specific frequency. Changing from this frequency will cause the core to saturate, which subsequently causes the transformer to run hot. Running a 60hz plug pack transformer on 50hz will often cause it to overheat. Plugpacks have a thermal fuse (or should have) buried in the windings of the transformer. If it gets to hot for to long, the fuse blows and the plug pack has to go in the bin.

Transformers are becoming less common these days though, as the cost of copper and metal makes them expensive. Most equipment uses switched mode power supplies which will run from less than 100V to well over 240V in most cases. As the rectify the AC mains into DC, it does not matter what frequency they are operated with.

[PADDLES]

only on 3 phase synchronous drives andy. speed control in single phase is different, i believe it's more voltage related and not frequency related.

[Pirate_Pete_Tas]

you're right hh, for 3 phase motors. i dont think frequency influences speed in a single phase motor.




The frequency controlls the speed of all squirrel cage motors single phase or 3 phase. e.g. compressor motors in your fridge. This may make the fridge run slightly longer to pump the fridge down to temp but not by all that much.

A Universal Motor e.g. electric drill has brushes & its speed is varied by the voltage.

[PADDLES]

fair call pete, it'll change speed for all induction motors. so that would pretty much just be the fridge motor on a boat wouldn't it?

[HH565L]

Thanks for the confirmation Pete. I was starting to think my 26 years experience in industrial electrical motor control had been a waste of time.

All induction motor driven objects will be affected. Compressor motor and condensor fan on the fridge, compressor motor and fan on the air-con system, possibly even the motor in the micro-wave if it's an induction motor (unlikely but I'm not sure what they use there).

Speed control is not possible with a single phase induction motor. It is however possible with a universal motor such as that you would find in a ceiling fan or an electric drill as mentioned above. Completely difference design philosophy.

Regards,
Spiro

[PADDLES]

it's never a waste of time spiro, it's how often you have to deal with something that makes ya not have a memory slot for that bit of info . sounds like we work in similar fields and i can tell you that we very rarely have to deal with single phase motors and the last time i had to deal with controlling the speed of a single phase motor was at uni.

[Twisted_Pair]

with regards to statutory requirements, the voltage level doesn't matter, there's heaps of 110VAC installations out there, it was a fairly standard control voltage at one stage. what does matter however is the method of installation and whether it complies with AS3000, definitely check that out because if a 240VAC or 110VAC fault causes your ship to burn to the waterline and the investigators find your installation is no good, you're going to be kissing your insurance claim goodbye. they won't care about the us standard. by law here in australia, your installation has to comply with australian wiring rules.

AS/NZS3004:2002 is the relevant standard for Marinas & Pleasure Craft at Low Votage i.e. 50VAC to 1000VAC.


i'd pay a little cashola for a 240V electrician (not a boat or auto 12/24V electrician) to check and certify the installation, it could pay off in the long run.

Totally agree Paddles, as well the electrician should be familiar with the above standard.

Regards, T_P

[TheRealAndy]

Thanks for the confirmation Pete. I was starting to think my 26 years experience in industrial electrical motor control had been a waste of time.

All induction motor driven objects will be affected. Compressor motor and condensor fan on the fridge, compressor motor and fan on the air-con system, possibly even the motor in the micro-wave if it's an induction motor (unlikely but I'm not sure what they use there).

Speed control is not possible with a single phase induction motor. It is however possible with a universal motor such as that you would find in a ceiling fan or an electric drill as mentioned above. Completely difference design philosophy.

Regards,
Spiro

Actually, speed control is possable with most single phase induction motors, but very rare! You use a variable speed drive with one phase connected to the primary winding and a second phase connected to the auxillary winding. Cant be done with shaded pole motors however. I actually designed a 3 phase variable speed drive that could be used for single phase motors with a minor software change. ANyhow, a bit off topic now.

[HH565L]

A little off topic maybe, but interesting nonetheless.

When I talk about single phase induction motors I'm most often reffering to cap start or cap start, cap run. The caps don't like a PWM supply and there are risks associated with running the motor at slow speed ie centrifugal switch doesn't open, start windings are compromised, internal cooling fan doesn't push enough air to cool the motor etc etc.

Anyway I am interested to know what you guys do, so I'll drop each of you a pm with my details.

Regards,
Spiro

[Offshore^Jack]

Wow,this thread has become so technical and i appreciate all your advice even though it's way over my head.

Paddles,you say i should speak to an electrician,my brother is a sparky so i'm in luck there.

U.S. boat manufacturers export to every country in the world,you'd think there'd be something more universal in their electrical systems.

If i bought an American boat through an Aussie dealer,the boat would arrive here wired for Australian standards,all the outlets,wiring looms,appliances etc. start her up,ready to go.

There has to be companies out there that specialise in this field.This is starting to worry me re. insurance burning out air-con,LCD tv's,genset,fridges etc.

I've already seen a few cruisers burn to the waterline in the past few months on the Gold Coast.You wouldn't want to be sleeping on board when an electrical fire starts,scary stuff.

[PinHead]

Wow,this thread has become so technical and i appreciate all your advice even though it's way over my head.

Paddles,you say i should speak to an electrician,my brother is a sparky so i'm in luck there.

U.S. boat manufacturers export to every country in the world,you'd think there'd be something more universal in their electrical systems.

If i bought an American boat through an Aussie dealer,the boat would arrive here wired for Australian standards,all the outlets,wiring looms,appliances etc. start her up,ready to go.

There has to be companies out there that specialise in this field.This is starting to worry me re. insurance burning out air-con,LCD tv's,genset,fridges etc.

I've already seen a few cruisers burn to the waterline in the past few months on the Gold Coast.You wouldn't want to be sleeping on board when an electrical fire starts,scary stuff.

correct on that one..for export to Aus they use our standards and wiring colours on the 240V side of things and they are certified as AS compliant..my previous boat was.

[PADDLES]

sheesh twisted, is that another standard to remember? is it designed to be read as an addition to the wiring rules where the wiring rules still hold precedence or is it completely independent?

your laughing then jack, get your brother to look at it, he'll know straight away whether it's all cool. it's better to be safe rather than sorry with insurance companies. can you see what a legal nightmare dangerous voltages can become, there are actually standards for 12vdc wiring as well. i mean it only ever becomes an issue if the unthinkable happens and she goes up.

g'day pinhead, does the wiring get changed for second hand ones imported here as well, or is the importer expected to get it done locally?

[Twisted_Pair]

sheesh twisted, is that another standard to remember? is it designed to be read as an addition to the wiring rules where the wiring rules still hold precedence or is it completely independent?


Electrical installations in marinas and pleasure craft shall be carried out in accordance with AS/NZS 3000, except as varied herein, and with the applicable additional requirements of this Standard (i.e AS/NZS3004:2002).

Regards, T_P

[Offshore^Jack]

We recently faced the same problem with a 43ft Searay. Easiest and cheapest fix was to leave all appliances atc at 110VAC and fit a transformer with a 240VAC primary and a 110VAC secondary. The shore power will connect to the primary of the transformer, 110VAC will be delivered from the secondary of the transformer to all the applinces.

To size the transformer correctly, you will need to fire up the gen-set and how much current draw you have with all appliances on. Then post that information here or give it to a transformer supplier for sizing and pricing. Any electrically qualified person should be able to do the installation for you.

The only issue you will have then is if and when any of your 110VAC appliances fail, you will need to import replacements from the US.

Hope that helps.

Regards,
Spiro


Spiro,

I have tracked down a transformer as you mentioned and it sounds great albeit as a temporary solution,without rewiring the whole boat.At sea,there'll no problems as the boat will run off it's 12 volt power system,so it's just at the marina that is the problem.

Here's an article i found,it's American cruising around the world and how he's dealt with different marina's electrical systems.The transformer he uses looks the goods,but like i said,a temporary fix.

http://www.libertysails.com/html/modifications_.html

[HH565L]

Great link. It explains the principle well and discusses some of the potential issues.

We installed the transformers (2 x 5kva) below decks and changed the plug to an Australian standard unit.

Good luck & regards,
Spiro

[Offshore^Jack]

I have found the transformer i need,i just need to know the size i need,it starts at 100 watt upto 10,000 watts.

To run aircon/heat,fridge etc what size do you think i need?

Also,if the microwave motor is 60 hertz and we run 50 hertz,does this transformer regulate it?

http://www.220-electronics.com/Transformers/trans/simranreg.htm

Actually,this mightn't be suitable for boats as marina's use 3 phase power i think


Cheers

[HH565L]

Time to get your brother involved. As mentioned previously he will need to measure how much current is drawn when all appliances are on, and also take inrush into account. That'll take care of worst case condition for you. Alternatively, have a good think about which appliances you will likely be using at any one given time and measure the current drawn by those. This will assist you to get transformer size and cost down.

Unfortunately there's not a lot more we can do from here. It's time to start taking measurements.

Regards,
Spiro

[Offshore^Jack]

Ok,thanks for all your help,my brother lives in Melbourne so i'll see what he reckons,i didn't ask him because i thought marine electrics was totally different like automotive.

Here's a great article that explains a lot,for me anyway.

http://www.cruisingworld.com/article.jsp?ID=201575&typeID=396&catID=569

[HH565L]

Great article, I've even book marked that one for future reference. 8-)

[TheRealAndy]

Ok,thanks for all your help,my brother lives in Melbourne so i'll see what he reckons,i didn't ask him because i thought marine electrics was totally different like automotive.

Here's a great article that explains a lot,for me anyway.

http://www.cruisingworld.com/article.jsp?ID=201575&typeID=396&catID=569

Honestly mate, give the guys (and gals) at PJM sales a call. They deal with this stuff every day and will be able to provide you with some advice. Also, you dont want to be buying one of these transformers from overseas as friggin heavy and will cost a motza in freight charges.

The motor that spins the microwave will be a shaded pole motor. Unless you are going to be running it for a few hours then it will be fine. It will run a tad slowerm but i doubt you will notice any difference.

AS for power, well the biggest three pin plugs in australia are rated at 15a (3600 watts), so unless you boat is powered for three phase then a 5kva unit will be plenty big enough.

[oldboot]

It occurs to me that the single most important thing is to have the boat checked & certified by a local electrician who knows what he is doing with boat electrics.

particularly if the boat is in Queensland.

The queensland electrical safety act is incredibly agressive, if you get it wrong and something happens they will kick you, turn you arround and kick you again till they run out of reasons to kick you... then they will throw you to the lawyers.

so regardless of the electrical practicalities you are obliged to ensure the entire installation and every appliance on board is compliant with a stack of standards.

If you have read the act you will realise that is is all encompasing and there arent many loop holes..........and the fines are massive.............

Among other things the act places obligations on anybody importing electrical articles.

We can chatter about this all we like, but you might be looking at a rewire anyway.

So don't spend a cent till you have it assessed.

Another supplier of transformers is GAYRAD up the northside....they are an actual manufacturer of transformers and are very price competitive.

To my knoweledge PJM sales are simply agents and dealers.

cheers

[TheRealAndy]

I thought PJM used to manufacture however GAYRAD is now added to my list!!

Worth noting that I have also read about suppliers in NSW and SA, so hit the yellow pages for transformer manufacturers.

Offshore JAck, not sure where you are located, but I am an instrument fitter by trade, which used to be a sparky of some sorts. Not legal now because i think regs have changed and you need resuscitation stuff, however the standards have changed bugger all. I could always take a look for you. I am bris northside.

[PADDLES]

gayrad make good transformers. they have been used heaps in industry over the years. just had a look and he's at narangba, i could have sworn he was operating out of bribie at one stage.