MR T's

[Seahorse]

Hey what happened to the thread.
I was keen to see how anthony went.

[disorderly]

Hey what happened to the thread.
I was keen to see how anthony went.

It was deleted...

and as to how Anthony went ...well his boat doesn't go (despite $700 worth of mechanical work) and he doesn't have a sounder that was prepaid through insurance....http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/sad.gif.

[Seahorse]

thats not good.
yeah i looked everywhere for the thread.
why was it deleted?
its sad when someone seems to be ripped off by the system.
lts hope he can get it all together.

cheers
greg

[garman1]

anyone who has dealt with receiverships know that it effects a lot of people. I worked for a business once who missed paying me one week and said "mate well catch it up next week", i worked thrue the next week and on payday got told "oh don't come in tommorrow, we have gone into receivership today and we can't pay ya".....they knew damn well what was happening the week before.

i finally I got 2 cents in the dollar back........................ahhh pissed off was one word that came to mind.

But worse, was the company who delivered a truckload of steel in the afternoon and got told the next morning the business had turned turtle, ...Oh the steel company got 2 cents in the dollar back too.........now he was pissed off.

Cheers Garry

[marco]

censorship is the word , and if you heard the real story with anthony it would make your eyes pop . have to give it to anthony though in showing restraint in not airing the true story publicly .

[mod5]

The original post was deleted because it was starting to contain to many posts of members personal attacks on each other. No other reason.

[tigermullet]

I think that we all tend to forget that in any transaction there is risk for both the buyer and the seller (or provider of services)

The meidia have us conditioned to the friendly televison show coming to the aid of innocent persons being 'ripped off'. Granted, that sometimes is the case.

However, there is never any mention of transaction risk that accompanies every exchange. Going to a supermarket is easy - the risk is minimised or eliminated by picking up the thing (taking delivery) and paying for it at the check out. Further protection is provided by warranties, no question refunds etc., etc.,

But that should not blind us to transaction risks associated with every purchase and the risk rises as the price goes up.

In these uncertain times it is something to be remembered when parting with hard earned money. It is safer to give only a minimum deposit and paying in full upon receipt. For larger sums of money (land, house, boat purchase) it might be better to get a third party to hold the deposit until the contract (verbal or written) is finalised.

Don't forget that the seller or supplier of services is also at risk. The customer might refuse to pay the price, not return to complete the purchase and so on.

A thousand things can go wrong and it is up to each party to protect themselves.

If something does go wrong then each party should share the blame and the cost for failing to take risk management strategies. Adopting risk management will not entirely eliminate the risk (it is not meant to) but better to lose a small amount than lose the lot.

The seller runs the higher risk most of the time. Car yards, boat retailers etc., must have a large inventory so that the buyer can be presented with choice.

Consequently, they have the greater risk of things going wrong.

We, as purchasers, must accept some responsibility in the transaction and do our best to protect ourselves.

Sorry for the lecture but many young people are never exposed to this ordinary, every-day risk and it just might get a few ideas going on risk minimisation.

I also apologize for the very simple description of this risk. Books have been written on the subject.

[AnthonyL]

In all fairness the thread I posted my vent about being ripped off by Mr T’s Marine was a closing down sale thread.


I shouldn’t have posted on that thread as it was meant to be more of a good luck guys type of thread. I just got annoyed seeing Mick referring to starting up his mobile service when I felt I had been ripped off.


Anyway.. I have my boat booked in for tomorrow to be repaired with another boat place that people on this site recommended and I look forward to getting their report(and their bill lol).


I know Theo & his family has bigger problems than my $2000.

[TimiBoy]

Damned Hijackers!;D;D;D;D

Good Luck Ant, I'm sure it will all work out, keep positive, just get on the water and fish!

Cheers,

Tim

[PADDLES]

top description tiger. i work in an industry where generally someone who is providing a service (ie. the contractor) has to pay the customer (ie. the client) a security deposit to not only warrant the contracted service but also guarantee that they will actually complete the contracted service. penalties also apply if the contracted service is not provided by practical completion date. can turn into bank guarantees worth millions. this is a situation where the customer is trying to protect himself and generally the provider of the service really wants to win the job (ie. it worth heaps to him to do so)

[timddo]

There must be more stories like anthony, What about everyone who ordered those new mclay boats, ( do you loose your deposit).

Boat deposits should be put in a trust account like rental bond.

[chop69]

great idea & if possible (& legal), something in the contract stating that all monies returned if things go bad like in this case.

[FNQCairns]

There must be more stories like anthony, What about everyone who ordered those new mclay boats, ( do you loose your deposit).

Boat deposits should be put in a trust account like rental bond.

Aint going to happen, money makes our regulations.

cheers fnq

[PinHead]

There must be more stories like anthony, What about everyone who ordered those new mclay boats, ( do you loose your deposit).

Boat deposits should be put in a trust account like rental bond.

that won't happen..the building industry is worse than the marine one...many a subby has been shafted by a builder going down..myself included to the tune of 11k plus 3k to solicitor chasing it and the day before we were to go to court he wound the company up and declared himself bankrupt. I have no sympathy for business owners in these predicaments.

[tigermullet]

None from me either. Quite often, all the precautions in the world won't stop losses occurring. Being in the business you would have heard of dozens of examples of similar outcomes. There's not much that can be done in those cases.

I was only trying to point out (after a long day and few beers) to the younger and perhaps inexperienced Ausfishers that there is risk in any transaction and that some thought should be put into minimising the risks.

Each transaction will be different.

Even with knowledge of and implementation of risk reduction I have also copped some losses.

I feel sorrier for the subcontractors than any other group - they really do put their necks on the line and cannot easily protect themselves. Something ought to be done. But that sentiment has been put forward for as long as I can remember and nothing ever seems to change.

[Reel Nauti]

Good PR is essential for a business which relies on it. But from the management perspective, fiscal management is THE MOST important of all. Budget forecasts, variances(favourable and unfavourable), determinations of where, when, what and how, are the most essential watchdogs of any business. Most businesses monitor these weekly, but at the very least monthly. A business which has been operating for any more than 3 years would or should be fully aware of this, and any business owner who is facing foreclosure and claims it be a "surprise", is either playing with the PR side or simply shouldn't be in business.

Just my opinion.

Dave

[Seahorse]

Spot On Dave.
They Had To Have Known For Some Time They Were In Trouble.
Surprises Just Dont Happen.
You Just Dont Wake Up One Morning And Say , Shit I Owe More Than I Got.

Greg

[datamile]

I think most family businesses think they can survive a rough patch just like last time. Plough a more of their own cash in , remortgage, and then get through it, but then when it crashes it crashes bad. It only takes a couple of bad debts, an overdraft interest rate rise, or a supplier messing about to tip it over the edge.

[Tangles]

Just my opinion,

Wish I lived in a business world where everything is foreseen, structure, adaptability and working your key differentiators and ability to identify those trends are key in a tough market which is the reality.

As for Mr T's well the only fact is that they closed so the rest is just opinion as to what happened, and the rights and wrongs as to what they should have done or known etc. Only the recievers will know the real story.

mike

[tigermullet]

I think most family businesses think they can survive a rough patch just like last time. Plough a more of their own cash in , remortgage, and then get through it, but then when it crashes it crashes bad. It only takes a couple of bad debts, an overdraft interest rate rise, or a supplier messing about to tip it over the edge.

Precisely. As buyers we are not privy to any of the problems being faced by any business.

Because it is impossible for the purchaser to judge whether a business is sound or not we should be prepared for the worst.

If in the market for a high ticket item (lots of boats fall into that category) it would be prudent to pay the minimum deposit and have the deposit held by an independant third party. Often, that strategy is impractical but if the price was sufficiently high it would be worth while considering having a simple contract drawn up and the deposit placed into a solicitor's trust fund.

There would be a cost involved but the amount spent could be looked upon as insurance.

Depriving oneself of this protection would be much the same as buying a large, expensive boat and not having it hauled out for an inspection by a qualified person.

Boat inspections are vital. Years ago it saved me from a disaster and I was glad to pay and write off the inspection cost of $900. Better to spend a few hundred than waste tens of thousands. Getting the deposit back was a battle and I would never again sign a contract drawn up by the seller or commission agent.

Last year a friend decided not to have an inspection done because he was reluctant to spend an extra $1000 or so. He has now spent over $12,000 in repairing faults that would have been very obvious to a qualified person.

On top of that, the contract signed had all sorts of loopholes in it. Had he decided to opt out of the purchase, after paying a substantial deposit, there could have been an acrimonious dispute with an uncertain chance of getting the deposit back.

Without involving experts in boat inspections, contracts etc., you chance your arm in buying expensive boats.

[Reel Nauti]

Any business which goes belly up, after submitting regular quarterly BAS's, and the phone calls start, and the letters of demand, all of which occur a long time before the suits arrive, sometimes for more than a year, has no-one to blame but management.
Management is not all about today or even tomorrow, it's about next year and the year after and five years down the track. Business plans makes businesses. And budgets steer them through the waters. Today and tomorrow don't even come into the equation.
Family businesses outgrow family competencies and capabilities if they're successful, (and that's a good thing for smart families in business!). The majority of wise owners, (if they themselves are not capable), then look to professional guidance, ie CEO's, CFO's and the like. Smart business owners are made by the people they surround themselves with. Investing in management resource is essential, if the business grows beyond the owners capabilites. Submission and admission to your own shortcomings is part of recoginising growth, and the need for professional assistance. To deny that need, can only lead to failure in part, or total collapse.
Just look at any long term moderately large to large successful business, even government.

Maybe I should have left out government..............???????????!!!!!!!!!!!

Dave

[tigermullet]

Yes. But it does not account for all. A few years back two very successful businesses that I knew of went out of business in the blink of an eye. Both were in the multi million dollar range, honestly and competently run. The exact details are not important but both received notices out of the blue, calling their loans.

Not because of any fault of theirs. It was just that the Bank knew that the main contracting firm (Asian based) was going under and the loans of the Australian companies were called. Both had needed to raise millions to complete the contracted work.

Neither firm was hiding behind a complex business structure and both owners had laid everything on the line, including their houses. Was that honest? Yes, but in hindsight, also a bit stupid.

The workers received their entitlements - both owners were left without a thing. It was an horrific end for two firms that had run successful businesses for decades.

With 20/20 hindsight vision both should have isolated their personal property from such action. I was always too embarrassed to ask why that had not been done.

As you say, they should have surrounded themselves with experts and/or taken advice of protecting themselves personally. They might not have even thought that such a thing was required. Being upfront and honest is admirable but it does not always pay.

After a few lessons such as that over the years I always, as a purchaser, try to look after my interests as much as possible by not handing over large deposits for expensive items - boats especially. There are enough traps in buying boats without taking unnecessary risks.

The main purpose of my comments is to urge people to take care of themselves as customers and, if something goes wrong, to realise that it is not always the complete fault of the business operator. Transaction risk is very real and steps can be taken to minimise that risk.

[Reel Nauti]

I'm sorry I edited my post before your response Tigermullet.

As we've both said though, professional guidance is paramount.

Cheers

Dave

[tigermullet]

As a postscript to my previous comments - I would like to retire from the debate about Mr T. I feel sorry for him and his associates and also feel sorry that some customers might have suffered loss.

How would I feel if I had lost deposit money or whatever? Upset, I guess but it has happened to me in other dealings. Being a simple and trusting soul it took a few lessons before waking up to my own responsibility.

That's how I like to look at it - my wife used to have other sayings that included the words 'incredibly stupid' and 'my mother was so right'.

Anyway, that's life. Starting Monday I can go away for a week or so and wresle with fish - or the lack thereof.;D

[tigermullet]

I'm sorry I edited my post before your response Tigermullet.

As we've both said though, professional guidance is paramount.

Cheers

Dave

No apologies needed Dave. I do like a good debate. Professional guidance is important - but do I really have to stop hating accountants?;D

[HAIRY MAN]

Good To See Everone Has An Opinion Without Knowing Exactly The Problems Our Buisiness Was Facing.i Would Understand If Everyone Was Telling Us And Not Bringing Their Boats In For Service,in Fact We Had Probably The Busiest Workshop In The Area.as For Boat Sales Same Again.yes The Accounting Side Was A Downfall,we Were In The Process Of Appointing A New Accountant(third).the Industry Has Suffered A Downturn But We Could Still Trade Through.one Particular Brand Of Boat Manufacturer Owed Us A Substantial Amount Of Money And Resultant Loss Of Sales And Margin Of This Particular Brand Left Us Hundreds Of Thousands Of Dollars Out Of Our Cashflow.as For Knowing Months Or Weeks Before That We Were Going Be Shut Down That Is Crap.also As Far As Customers Being Left In The Lurch There Was Only One Lost Deposit($300) And Of Course Anthonyl.very Dissappointed Anthony With The Way You Handled This,if Only The Truth Came Out.all I Am Saying Is That If You Don't Know The Utter Truth Of The Behind The Scenes Operations Then Maybe You Should Not Cast Us Into The Crooks Basket.if We Weren't Tied Up With This Particular Boat Manufacturer We Would Not Have Lost Our Home And At My Age It Is Not A Good Feelling Having To Live With My Mum.at The End Of The Day I Started Out With A Little Baitshop And Grew Consistantly Over The Next 12 Years For Two Mistakes Accounting And Getting Invoved With A Dud Boat Manufacturer,i Made A Lot Of Money For Manufacturers,made A Lot Of Customers Happy With Their Purchases And I Lost My Home And The Total Losses For My Customers Was Under $2000.

[Marlin_Mike]

that won't happen..the building industry is worse than the marine one...many a subby has been shafted by a builder going down..myself included to the tune of 11k plus 3k to solicitor chasing it and the day before we were to go to court he wound the company up and declared himself bankrupt. I have no sympathy for business owners in these predicaments.


Ditto greg

been in the construction game 20 years, worst industry for what you said

Mike

[Seahorse]

I Guess U R Right , We All Have Opinions, But Just Hate To See Anyone Lose Out.
I Should Imagine That A List Has Already Been Made Stating To Whom Money Is Owed.
I Think Everyone Would Like To Know Who The Boat Manufacturer Was, Cause From My Own Personal View, Be Stuffed If I Would Buy Their Boat.
Is The Boat Manufacturer Still Operating?
I Think That This Is All Vital Information To All The Guys On Here As Well As The Industry.
I Dont Want To Get Into Ur Personal Info, But This Site Is Close To 100% Boaties And They Have A Right To Know.
If Anyone Disagrees With Me, Please Say So.
This Is By No Way A Witch Hunt On Mr.t"s




Cheers
Greg

[marco]

Good To See Everone Has An Opinion Without Knowing Exactly The Problems Our Buisiness Was Facing.i Would Understand If Everyone Was Telling Us And Not Bringing Their Boats In For Service,in Fact We Had Probably The Busiest Workshop In The Area.as For Boat Sales Same Again.yes The Accounting Side Was A Downfall,we Were In The Process Of Appointing A New Accountant(third).the Industry Has Suffered A Downturn But We Could Still Trade Through.one Particular Brand Of Boat Manufacturer Owed Us A Substantial Amount Of Money And Resultant Loss Of Sales And Margin Of This Particular Brand Left Us Hundreds Of Thousands Of Dollars Out Of Our Cashflow.as For Knowing Months Or Weeks Before That We Were Going Be Shut Down That Is Crap.also As Far As Customers Being Left In The Lurch There Was Only One Lost Deposit($300) And Of Course Anthonyl.very Dissappointed Anthony With The Way You Handled This,if Only The Truth Came Out.all I Am Saying Is That If You Don't Know The Utter Truth Of The Behind The Scenes Operations Then Maybe You Should Not Cast Us Into The Crooks Basket.if We Weren't Tied Up With This Particular Boat Manufacturer We Would Not Have Lost Our Home And At My Age It Is Not A Good Feelling Having To Live With My Mum.at The End Of The Day I Started Out With A Little Baitshop And Grew Consistantly Over The Next 12 Years For Two Mistakes Accounting And Getting Invoved With A Dud Boat Manufacturer,i Made A Lot Of Money For Manufacturers,made A Lot Of Customers Happy With Their Purchases And I Lost My Home And The Total Losses For My Customers Was Under $2000.

after reading anthony's view of what happened which he sent to me , im surprised he hasnt had you charged . i think you should be glad he has not involved asic into your dealings .

[tigermullet]

Exactly right Hairy Man.

That is what I was trying to get across, albeit in a very dense and round-about way.

We do not know the circumstances and should not presume to judge.

I hope that you do very well in the future.

You could not have built up and stayed in business all those years without looking after your customers and the boating world in this area is diminished by the closing of your business.

[Seahorse]

Hey Tiger, How Would U Like To Buy A Boat From A Boat Manufacturer Who Apparently, And I Use That Word Loosely Has Done The Dirty On A Boat Yard Which U Hold In High Regard.
Marco. Very Interesting Comments.

Greg

[marco]

Hey Tiger, How Would U Like To Buy A Boat From A Boat Manufacturer Who Apparently, And I Use That Word Loosely Has Done The Dirty On A Boat Yard Which U Hold In High Regard.
Marco. Very Interesting Comments.

Greg

interesting comment greg , one would think that it is the boat yard that owes money to the builder.


so hairy man , how did this one come about ?

[Mtx]

Let it go Marco, you are not personally involved. Do you want this thread closed as well?

You are adding no value to the conversation.

[tigermullet]

Marco, I would not like to buy and, if I found out, then I would not go near them again.

There is one brand of outboard that I will not touch because of unethical behaviour by the original owner of the brand. I don't care how good they are or that the company has changed but I will never buy that brand again.

I dislike that brand so much that I have passed up bargains in used boats powered by the motor.

My memory goes back a long way and, if I was more charitable, would forgive the silly old git but...I'm not and won't.

Without giving the name away, it was a motor that should never have been sold for salt water use. Years after the fact became apparent, the original owner stated that if it was good enough for (name of country) it was good enough for the world and that his company's profits should not be endangered.

All for the cost of one $2 part. He died shortly after the interview and things did change. However, I've never forgiven the lapse in ethics.

[tigermullet]

Sorry, the last response was meant to be for Greg.

[castlemaine]

Maybe I'm stepping over the mark here, but if I went to Mr T's to purchase a boat I'd be looking at a Bluefin. Apart from the business part, lot of of people who own a Bluefin , love em' Cheers8-)

[Seahorse]

Didnt Think We Needed To Be To Smart To Work That One Out.
Just Have To Wait To See If Its Confirmed.

[marco]

Let it go Marco, you are not personally involved. Do you want this thread closed as well?

You are adding no value to the conversation.

mind your own business , you have no idea as to what is going on .

[Seahorse]

tiger,
my point exactly.
if a person states that he was done over by a boat company and lost everything,and by the tones of people on here, is well liked and respected, why doesnt that person come out and say the boat company.
i think catlemaine has prob hit the nail on the head.
but we cant make those statement without proof and one man knows.
who on here would deal with a shonkey boat company? whoever that boat company may be.

greg

[lippa]

with trailcraft, putting dealerships, in every second yard it seems. maybe?

[timddo]

Guys,,

What i don' t get is.. Boat company A ( they mainly sell, ( Trailcraft and Bluefine boats + other brands) are the suppliers .

MR T are the customers -- They will buy on account from the suppliers and will only pay upond receipt of the product????? So why would the boat companies owe them money???

As for not knowing - The accountant should know the cash flows of the organisation, b4 hand, He does the figures and reconciles the accounts.
There is a thing called a budget.

[castlemaine]

with trailcraft, putting dealerships, in every second yard it seems. maybe?

[quote=marco;865344]one would think that it is the boat yard that owes money to the builder.
quote]

Even my first comment, looking back at it, is based on innuendo. How about some facts, from those in the know. Marco seems to me to make a good point here ... I don't know the boat industry ... does the boat yard buy the boat off the manufacturer before sale? I thought the process was you'd order the boat (with a deposit), it gets built , sent to the boatyard, then all money changes hands. Someone enlighten me on the process! 8-)

[doublexl]

[quote=marco;865344]one would think that it is the boat yard that owes money to the builder.
quote]

Even my first comment, looking back at it, is based on innuendo. How about some facts, from those in the know. Marco seems to me to make a good point here ... I don't know the boat industry ... does the boat yard buy the boat off the manufacturer before sale? I thought the process was you'd order the boat (with a deposit), it gets built , sent to the boatyard, then all money changes hands. Someone enlighten me on the process! 8-)


hi castlemaine,yes the yard pays for the boat when it is built, before it gets to the yard.something else to think about boat shows cost the yard owner big money out of there pocket,the manufacturer gives some small payment for the show and hardly any partisipation[this is one area in the marine industry i can't stand] i'll explain, when you go to the car show a major brand is represented under 1 big stand.the purchaser of a new car is sold a car and based on where they live is to what yard gets the deal,the marine industry i think needs to go down this road. i know its a bit more complex with dealerships having a couple of brands under 1 banner.

[doublexl]

i can tell you all that bluefin is not the manufacturer who owes money to mr t.
how can a manufacturer owe a yard money? well WARRANTY WORK done on behalf of the manufacturer [authorised by the manufacturer] by the yard.also advertising subsidies "authorised by the manufacturer" and placed by the yard who pays for all this up front.hope this helps...
i know because i worked for theo and mick for 2years.

[charlieash]

Having worked in a boat dealership maybe i can clear this up. Different boat brands offer different schemes in forms of rebates for shows addvertising turnover ect allso there are warranty claims ect that get paid . Now lets say the company you are dealing with at the time offerded you a a percentage rebate on the purchase price for a show specail witch you pass on to the customer to be competitive. If the manufactuer is slow in paying this plus the contribution to the show stand . The dealer could quite easily have a large hole in their cash flow. even worse if you stop dealing with that brand before they have paid .

[Getout]

Good To See Everone Has An Opinion Without Knowing Exactly The Problems Our Buisiness Was Facing.i Would Understand If Everyone Was Telling Us And Not Bringing Their Boats In For Service,in Fact We Had Probably The Busiest Workshop In The Area.as For Boat Sales Same Again.yes The Accounting Side Was A Downfall,we Were In The Process Of Appointing A New Accountant(third).the Industry Has Suffered A Downturn But We Could Still Trade Through.one Particular Brand Of Boat Manufacturer Owed Us A Substantial Amount Of Money And Resultant Loss Of Sales And Margin Of This Particular Brand Left Us Hundreds Of Thousands Of Dollars Out Of Our Cashflow.as For Knowing Months Or Weeks Before That We Were Going Be Shut Down That Is Crap.also As Far As Customers Being Left In The Lurch There Was Only One Lost Deposit($300) And Of Course Anthonyl.very Dissappointed Anthony With The Way You Handled This,if Only The Truth Came Out.all I Am Saying Is That If You Don't Know The Utter Truth Of The Behind The Scenes Operations Then Maybe You Should Not Cast Us Into The Crooks Basket.if We Weren't Tied Up With This Particular Boat Manufacturer We Would Not Have Lost Our Home And At My Age It Is Not A Good Feelling Having To Live With My Mum.at The End Of The Day I Started Out With A Little Baitshop And Grew Consistantly Over The Next 12 Years For Two Mistakes Accounting And Getting Invoved With A Dud Boat Manufacturer,i Made A Lot Of Money For Manufacturers,made A Lot Of Customers Happy With Their Purchases And I Lost My Home And The Total Losses For My Customers Was Under $2000.

I am astounded that a thriving business can be pushed under, because its cash flow is strangled by a supplier.I can't understand how a supplier which is still in business can owe a retailer, unless sales are commission based. (very unlikely).

Surely if the only out of pocket customers are owed $2000.00 it would be easy enough to sort them out and keep one's reputation intact?
Doesn't make sense to me to have your business name destroyed for the sake of $2000.00.

[marco]

Surely if the only out of pocket customers are owed $2000.00 it would be easy enough to sort them out and keep one's reputation intact?
Doesn't make sense to me to have your business name destroyed for the sake of $2000.00.

getout , i think the key word is customers ( multiple of ) . how many customers ie: unsecured creditors got burnt in this and when the secured creditors get repaid , is the reciever going to then allow the mr t brand name to start trading again ?

and of course this would be at the exspense of the unsecured customers/ creditors !

nasty old world this stuff hey and as you say the value of your business name is surely worth more than a couple of grand , but maybe it is a lot more than that ?

[AnthonyL]

I am astounded that a thriving business can be pushed under, because its cash flow is strangled by a supplier.I can't understand how a supplier which is still in business can owe a retailer, unless sales are commission based. (very unlikely).

Surely if the only out of pocket customers are owed $2000.00 it would be easy enough to sort them out and keep one's reputation intact?
Doesn't make sense to me to have your business name destroyed for the sake of $2000.00.

It wouldnt cost $2000 to make me happy as I guess the wholesale price of the gps/sounder would be less than $600 if Bias have them advertised for that price.

[Seahorse]

there not talking about $2000.
hairyman said they were hundreds of thousands of dollars out of their cashflow.
total loss of money to customers was under $2000, that we were told about.
And poor old anthony only wants a sounder for $600.
not much for a bit of good will, from a so called so well liked and respected man, according to many ausfish members, who really pushed to get people down there to save his business.
good luck mate

greg

[castlemaine]

there not talking about $2000.
hairyman said they were hundreds of thousands of dollars out of their cashflow.
total loss of money to customers was under $2000, that we were told about.
And poor old anthony only wants a sounder for $600.
not much for a bit of good will, from a so called so well liked and respected man, according to many ausfish members, who really pushed to get people down there to save his business.
good luck mate

greg

Greg you're right, I'm also confused 'hundreds of thousands of dollars'??? That would mean $200,000 or more. I missed the original thread of Anthony's so I can't really make a decent comment but the more excuses I hear the more I'm confused. Apart from Anthony's gps/sounder problem (which is what really started this thread), a couple of boat manufacturers are now under scrutiny here as well, without real evidence.:-/
Thanks to all who explained how the boating industry works, too. 8-)

[Reel Nauti]

The problem with all of this is we only have the input from the owner, and of course Anthony. To get a real picture, would be to also have input from the Receiver, but that's not likely to happen. At the end of the day, I stand by my previous posts, and if Hairyman finds that challenging, then tough.

Cheers

Dave

[tigermullet]

Greg you're right, I'm also confused 'hundreds of thousands of dollars'??? That would mean $200,000 or more. I missed the original thread of Anthony's so I can't really make a decent comment but the more excuses I hear the more I'm confused. Apart from Anthony's gps/sounder problem (which is what really started this thread), a couple of boat manufacturers are now under scrutiny here as well, without real evidence.:-/
Thanks to all who explained how the boating industry works, too. 8-)


I swore not to make any more comments on this thread about the matter.

Right now I should be on the boat for a week or so but have been delayed because of a minor problem at home.

I do not think that is necessary to explain how the boating industry works. I don't know how it works either but am not at all astounded that a thriving business can be shut down even with the supplier, manufacturer still going on okay.

How many times have we heard of businesses making the very legitimate complaint that they were not allowed to 'trade out' of problems.

Banks are not benevolent societies; they can make snap judgments on a business and call a loan at any time to protect their bottom line. If you owe the bank money just drop in one day and see what happens by telling them that you have a temporary cash flow problem. The tears you see flowing from the lender's eye will not have anything to do with sympathy for your plight - they are more likely to be caused by uncontrollable mirth and delightful thoughts of getting their cash back with lots of fees and charges.

It is not an unusual circumstance and happens more ofter than we get to hear about.

Having a bank involved is like latching onto a 20 foot white pointer from a 12ft tinny. You might get away with it but there's also a chance you will end up being eaten.;D

[Getout]

I swore not to make any more comments on this thread about the matter.

Right now I should be on the boat for a week or so but have been delayed because of a minor problem at home.

I do not think that is necessary to explain how the boating industry works. I don't know how it works either but am not at all astounded that a thriving business can be shut down even with the supplier, manufacturer still going on okay.

How many times have we heard of businesses making the very legitimate complaint that they were not allowed to 'trade out' of problems.

Banks are not benevolent societies; they can make snap judgments on a business and call a loan at any time to protect their bottom line. If you owe the bank money just drop in one day and see what happens by telling them that you have a temporary cash flow problem. The tears you see flowing from the lender's eye will not have anything to do with sympathy for your plight - they are more likely to be caused by uncontrollable mirth and delightful thoughts of getting their cash back with lots of fees and charges.

It is not an unusual circumstance and happens more ofter than we get to hear about.

Having a bank involved is like latching onto a 20 foot white pointer from a 12ft tinny. You might get away with it but there's also a chance you will end up being eaten.;D

Funny that Hairy Man (if he is really the owner) didn't mention the bank as the real cause of the problem.
Temporary cash flow issues in a thriving business with the "busiest workshop in the area" wouldn't, on their own, be cause for a bank to call in the loan.
Surely the Bank would make more money in the long run supporting a thriving business, not shutting it down?
If the manufacturer still owes the retailer money (how? I don't know!) , the retailer would surely have made a big noise about this being the cause of the problem and forced the manufacturer to pay up or take them to court. It should be the manufacturer folding up, before the little guy at the end.

Perhaps this is, in fact happening and the owner would obviously not want to be making public statements.

[reelchippy]

All i will add we have a lot of people making comment about how someones business has failed is there any fact to what has been said i say not and
I see that it has moved a long way left from Anthonys $700.00.cheers

[tigermullet]

Being stuck at home for yet another day, there is time to add one last comment (I hope) about this thread.

In order for us to cut Mr T some slack it is not necessary to know the actual detail of the business or exactly what went wrong.

The hint from Mr T. came in a remark that they were not allowed time to 'trade out'. That is enough for me to suspect that a bank was involved and put a halt to things.

Banks are not interested in allowing a business to continue if the loan to valuation ratio is threated - even if it seems to us that it would be more profitable for the loan to keep on going. Banks are more interested in return of capital than return on capital.

Nor are they interested in disputes between firms. They are certainly not going to bat for you if you are experiencing difficulties, termporary or otherwise.

It has been reported that our banks are having difficulty in attracting funds off shore.

I will bet that hundreds of loan officers are now combing through their loan portfolios and are actively searching for the slightest hint of problems with the loans that have been made. My bet is that they will be taking a very close look at businesses that are up in the 'luxury' end.

Say, 'Hello' to the Global Credit Crunch.:(

[PinHead]

of course you are not allowed to trade out..it is illegal to trade if insolvent.

[tigermullet]

That is exactly right but I wasn't making any judgment on insolvency.

Nor does a bank have to make that assessment in order to decide to 'call' a loan.

Many banks have acted well before a person or an entity even gets close to that point.

I guess it would be fair to say that Banks are not on my Christmas card list. ;D

Perhaps I am being unduly suspicious and harsh in this instance but I don't think so.

[HAIRY MAN]

It Seems That There Are Plenty Of Experts That Know All About My Business And Have All The Answers. As Far As Anthony L Is Concerned, As I Have Said Before, If The Matter Was Handled Properly And Not On A Public Forum He Might Have Had A Better Outcome.

[Reel Nauti]

If he'd have had a better outcome it wouldn't have been the way it's been on a public forum Hairyman. Shame you feel it had to be conditional.

Dave

[Seahorse]

i agree dave.
whether handled properly or not, by saing that he might have had a better outcome is total shit.
To me that says, should i give him what he is owed or what i want to pay him.
glad i didnt give u any of my hard earned money hairyman.
so sit back say nothing and get more?
Obviously something to hide.
And we are not making assumptions, its straight from the horses mouth.

[disorderly]

It Seems That There Are Plenty Of Experts That Know All About My Business And Have All The Answers. As Far As Anthony L Is Concerned, As I Have Said Before, If The Matter Was Handled Properly And Not On A Public Forum He Might Have Had A Better Outcome.

Never heard such a load of crap in all my life...with an attitude like that it's no wonder you went broke http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/angry.gif.

[mik01]

Being stuck at home for yet another day, there is time to add one last comment (I hope) about this thread.

In order for us to cut Mr T some slack it is not necessary to know the actual detail of the business or exactly what went wrong.

The hint from Mr T. came in a remark that they were not allowed time to 'trade out'. That is enough for me to suspect that a bank was involved and put a halt to things.

Banks are not interested in allowing a business to continue if the loan to valuation ratio is threated - even if it seems to us that it would be more profitable for the loan to keep on going. Banks are more interested in return of capital than return on capital.

Nor are they interested in disputes between firms. They are certainly not going to bat for you if you are experiencing difficulties, termporary or otherwise.

It has been reported that our banks are having difficulty in attracting funds off shore.

I will bet that hundreds of loan officers are now combing through their loan portfolios and are actively searching for the slightest hint of problems with the loans that have been made. My bet is that they will be taking a very close look at businesses that are up in the 'luxury' end.

Say, 'Hello' to the Global Credit Crunch.:(

I have no comment about this business as I know nothing, however....

my wife works for a very large bank in a business banking capacity.
I used to think that banks just prefer to wind up businesses and consumers on a whim, or when things get 'tight'. i just don't trust banks like yourself Tigermullet.

but according to the 'boss', banks lose money by winding up businesses - they would much prefer the business to continue on which makes sense given they would continue to pay interest while the bank has minimal ongoings.

receivers/administrators cost the bank money. not trading and repaying interest and the principle costs the bank money. selling goods in an auction 'fire sale' loses money. legal fees, bank staff fees etc all adds up.
whilst I'm not sure what it costs on average to wind up a business, it must be significant.

surely the only logical reason a bank would wind up a business would be when the business has a history of missing repayments, and gets to a stage where they are a certain amount of $$ or time in arrears? therefore either the business puts up their hand and says 'I can't pay any more' or the bank has had enough of late payments.

like I said, I know nothing about this particular business - I'm just imparting some logic and internal bank knowledge

[spears]

After reading the original thread then this one I see that your all guessing.
No idea of any facts at all.
Its just rolling on as a big storm in a tea cup and running in circles.
Starting to look like a lynch mob.
How many people been put thru insolvency to understand what goes on..None or maybe a few..
Until you can supply dates,names and amounts.then you don't know
Bottom line is you don't know..

[Getout]

After reading the original thread then this one I see that your all guessing.
No idea of any facts at all.
Its just rolling on as a big storm in a tea cup and running in circles.
Starting to look like a lynch mob.
How many people been put thru insolvency to understand what goes on..None or maybe a few..
Until you can supply dates,names and amounts.then you don't know
Bottom line is you don't know..


Sure thing Spears.!.... the unusual thing here is that the owner of the business in question, pops up every now and then and keeps the thread alive!!

[timddo]

I don't know about you guys, But if a Particular boat builder owes MR T money, then Mr T will appoint a debt collector to collect the money, take them to court etc.

It's more like they were making losses for a while and keep topping their cash flow up to continue to trade. When there was nothing to remorgage, the buck stops here.

An example Say it was say $200, 000 short in cash flow, They can always auction their stock to recoup that amount of money quick. Selling boats at cost price????

[Reel Nauti]

Spears, I've read the thread too mate and been involved in some posting. I can't see anywhere where anyone claims to "know" what happened to this business. Some of us have questioned the claims of 'sudden death' to the business, and the alleged owners claims that he had no prior warning and couldn't see it coming. They are the points in question, and the attitude of the alleged owner through his regular posts.

Originally, the business was made out to be a poor innocent victim who one day, all of a sudden, without prior knowledge or warning, just happened to be in the sights of the receivers. Discussion and question suggests this in fact may not have been the case.

Dave

[Seahorse]

spears.
this is no lych mod and if u read all the threads, this has never been suggested.
it all came about, when we all heard couple weeks ago that mr t's was closing.
of course everyone was sadened by this, for the owner, his staff and the boating industry.
people just cannot understand how this can happen after reading replies from one of the partners. ie hairyman.
then anthony apparently has had lots dramas with and engine and sounder and a reply from hairyman to the effect of anthony may have had a better outcome if he approached it differently.
if i was anthony i would be spueing, reading that.
bottom line is, we dont know.
just trying to understand.
i dont call that lynching.

[spears]

Seahorse your comment:
I Dont Want To Get Into Ur Personal Info, But This Site Is Close To 100% Boaties And They Have A Right To Know.


Oh really..what is your personal stake or interest in this.
Where are you going with this
Why would a forum be told what the reasons are from the owners of T.

[mod5]

spears.
this is no lych mod and if u read all the threads, this has never been suggested.
it all came about, when we all heard couple weeks ago that mr t's was closing.
of course everyone was sadened by this, for the owner, his staff and the boating industry.
people just cannot understand how this can happen after reading replies from one of the partners. ie hairyman.
then anthony apparently has had lots dramas with and engine and sounder and a reply from hairyman to the effect of anthony may have had a better outcome if he approached it differently.
if i was anthony i would be spueing, reading that.
bottom line is, we dont know.
just trying to understand.
i dont call that lynching.


Seahorse your comment:
I Dont Want To Get Into Ur Personal Info, But This Site Is Close To 100% Boaties And They Have A Right To Know.


Oh really..what is your personal stake or interest in this.
Where are you going with this
Why would a forum be told what the reasons are from the owners of T.

Gentlemen, please do not let this deteriorate into a personal slanging match as it will only lead to the thread being removed 'again'

[AnthonyL]

Hey what happened to the thread.
I was keen to see how anthony went.


Before this thread gets deleted....

Seahorse.. my boat is now fixed as I took it to another repairer. I am mechanically challenged lol so I will ask in another thread about something strange the mechanic noted.

I bought an elcheop sounder for under $200 (my auto elec installed it for $150) to make do till I save up for another one. My wife has put the new sounder on the list behind kids braces, dentist, new glasses for Anthony Jnr.. even the dog getting something done at the vet is before the sounder lol.

Before all of this I was thinking of getting one from the US but was worried I might lose my money lolol.

Hoping the weather is good on Sunday so I can go out on the water.

[Seahorse]

mod 5
no worries.
never intended for that to happen.
spears made a comment and i replied.
i have no personal interest in this whatsoever. never bought anything from there or even know the bloke.
it doesnt have to be mr t, it could be anyone.
i just think people cant get their head around how any business can go down when told of the circumstances.
hairyman keeps coming up and replying, so the thread keeps going on.
then we have a fellow ausfisher who is chasing some gear and trying to get a motor fixed.
my replies have never indicated a lynch mod, as spears suggest.
its funny how a discussion can go along then 1 person throws in stupid comments and the thread is threatened.
maybe spears has a personal interest.
anyway what will be will be, but i can assure u that there is no personal attack.


cheers
greg

[tigermullet]

Mik01, your 'boss' is correct. Most banks will do the right thing and it does cost them money to foreclose on a business.

I merely raised the possibility of bank action as one reason why we should cut Mr T some slack.

Of course, we probably will not learn exactly what happened.

Having some knowledge of banks taking action against persons and companies I thought the scenario was plausible.

They don't always wait and know of several instances where persons and businesses who were managing their way through a temporary problem were brought down by their lender who decided to 'jump the gun'.

Until now we have had a favourable set of economic circumstances but that seems to be changing. My concern is that the banks just might return to practices that were common in previous credit crunches.

I have been waiting for a severe restriction of credit for some months and thought that Mr T might have been one of the early victims.

Two days ago there was a report announcig American Express cancelling their 'line of credit' facility on 20th August for existing and new customers.

Has the dash for cash begun?

Those who are prepared, might be able to call their next boat "Margin Call".

[spears]

Sorry changed my mind too much detail about myself..deleted..

[Seahorse]

spears not good.
$18000 is an awlful lot of money.
nice to see that u cleared it all.
an awlful lot dont.
hope everything goes well

[spears]

Sorry changed my mind too much detail about myself..deleted..

[oldboot]

I think one of the real problems we have is that there is a perception that business all are making money hand over fist.
Certainly at times in business you can make good solid lumps of profit, but there are also times when you take big hits.

The truth of the matter is that most businesses run pretty close to the wind.
Most certaily the affairs of many of these businesses are far more complicated than most would like to believe.

As long as everthing is running well good profits can be made and reliable service is delivered to customers.

BUT....all it takes is a few things to go not so well

Such as a major customer being slow to pay
an illness
a low price competitor opening up close by
an expensive mistake
the price of something going up or down drasticlay

and a whole pile of other things.

Those who work for wages mostly have no idea of the daily fight to keep the business on track and running well.


From what I understand lots of marine businesses are doing it hard and have been for a few years.......there have been a string of closures.........three that I know of in the redlands.
Times are tough for a lot of businesses and yes money is tight in the business world and looks like it will be that way for quite a while.

Even the best run business can easily fall to a couple of big hits.

Business like this a colapse is like a car wreck in slow motion, you can see it comming a long way off, you do all you can to avoid the impact but then comes another big hit and the brakes just don't seem to work and the steering just isn't responding. Then it feels like you have it going where it should be, but bang crash.....all finished and parked in a ditch.

Good businesses like good cars and good drivers still crash

It seems to me the owners/ managers of Mr T's have done a pretty good job of bringing the car to a stop without too much damage.

I wish them well and hope they can manage to recover.

cheers

[Reel Nauti]

Business like this a colapse is like a car wreck in slow motion, you can see it comming a long way off, cheers


The alleged owner denies this, which is the primary reason for the significant amount of discussion.

Dave

[tigermullet]

That's more like it, Oldboot!

It's tough out there and getting tougher.

After a few phone calls today it seems that the numbers, getting a call from banks inviting business customers in for an unexpected chat, are increasing on the Gold Coast.

That's overall numbers, not marine businesses exclusively.

IMO, Mr T should be given the benefit of the doubt.

[troy]

What has got me confused as well as others have stated is [how can a boat manufacturer owe him money]
I was of the opinion that the Dealer buys the boat off the manufacturer and then the person buying the boat pays the dealer and then the dealer pays the manufacturer.
Troy

[doublexl]

hi troy go back a few pages,read my post.

[dumbochickenhead]

AnthonyL.

Hope all goes well for you on Sunday, looks like a good day..

Cheers

[oldboot]

Yeh sometimes you see the other car comming, other times you just hear the squeel of brakes and its all over.

In a lot of industries dealership arrangements arent as simple and cut and dried buy and sell arrangements

I have heard of a variety of complicated commercial arrangements.

Discounting by rebate is common in lots of areas

The dealer buys stock from the distributer on account paying on 30 or 60 days.
Then gets rebates against sales, after the item is sold.

the rebate is suposed to be something the dealer sticks in their pocket as a reward for sales performance or as a promotional deal, but in a competitive & discounting market the dealer may be selling the item below his listed cost and relies on the rebate to make a profit... often the rebates add up to much more than the usual sellers margin.
Even that can be an over simplified explanation.

complicate the issue with
merchandising subsidies, where a distributer pushes a dealer to take on larger premises with the promise of paying a portion of the rent.

Or insist the dealer puts up a specific amount of signage or display material then pays a portion of the expense.....Oh by the way the dealer my only be able to buy that material from the distributer.

Then there is the magical shrinking stock....... a dealer buys a quantity of stock.....an amount he must buy to hold a dealership....... then the distributer cuts the retail price heavily......... so the dealer is stuck with stock that is worth a lot less...........a major pro sound company droped its retail price by more than the sellers margin a few years ago, leaving them with stock they had to sell for less than they baught it for.... some stores had tens of thousands worth of stock.

A dealer has a contract for a franchise, the franchisee wants to take over the dealers store...... so they wait for the dealer to be a little overextended, perhaps they encourage this.......they then enforce trading terms, find the dealer in breach of contract and take his shirt and trousers.......I know two people who have been zipped that way.


or the dealer is "given access" ( required to use) the distributers finance company to sell product.
you buy a WHIZZO boat with a DONGA outboard, both of which are distributed by DONGA australia, the dealer signs you up on DONGA finance.
The dealer sell you a boat & motor he has already paid for, he then waits while DONGA finance takes its own sweet time in coughing up, meanwhile DONGA australia acounts recievable is on the dealers case because payment for the monthly account is overdue..........OH believe me this sort of thing happens.

I had a mate that worked for a major car brand automotive finance company doing repo's on anything from trucks to small cars. He also had his own car financed thru the same company.
His account hadnt been paid for months, so he was a couple of payments overdue on his car........they threatened him with repossesion.
Stupid B....s
The matter wasn't settled till he held onto a prime mover he had repo'd till is was all sorted.
Last repo' he did for them.


OH it is a mine field out there......in general terms the banks arent too bad.... but if they get a whiff of a supplier angling to whip the carpet out from under a dealer......you bet your boots they will get there first, particularly if they financed the carpet.


Why do you think it's the nice guys who don't last.


cheers

[spears]

Sorry changed my mind too much detail about myself..deleted..

[tigermullet]

Thanks to Spears and Oldboot for telling it like it is.

I loved the piece about franchising. Now there's a minefield for you. Some franchises are deliberately set up so that failure is guaranteed.

With luck, your stories will alert others to how difficult and, sometimes dirty, business can be.

Without knowing the exact details, I really do suspect that Mr T is the 'victim' of the system rather than the villain.

[oldboot]

OH then there is the waranty service deal.
This is typical of the radio & TV trade.

You go out and buy a WHIZBANG brand DVD player to keep the kids amused over the holidays, new machine latest model. It rains for 2 solid weeks so it runs prety solidly.
1 week and 4 days into the hoidays it spits the dummy, you are told to take it to "fred's TV service" who are the waranty agents.
Fred's Mrs, listens to your story, fills in the service dockets and verifies your proof of purchase and waranty documents and you leave 15 minutes later.
Fred isnt real busy so he gets it on the bench 2 days later, its the first one he has seen so he has no documents on it, the diagrames arent even on the manufacturers web site yet.......anyway he established the fault was a dodgy laser......he makes enquiries of thr company that distributes WHIZBANG spare parts ( not WHIZBANG themselves), the model is new so there are no spares for the unit in stock yet and they will be 4 weeks ex tiwan.
Fred rings you to explain the situation...... you are far from impressed but there is nothing Fred can do.
Meanwhile he has had 4 other units of the same model come thru the door with the same fault.
He orders the parts.
4 weeks later you ring him to find out where how the unit is going.......the parts still havn't arrived...........fred now has 15 similar units in his shop with the same fault..........he has spare parts fror 5 units " on a courier" somewhere and another 8 sets of spares on back order and is getting 3 to 4 calls a day about these units including some idiot who rings every day at 9:01 am.

Seems there is a fault in a batch of lasers and the units are failing after about 120 to 150 hours of run time. But the distributer has imported 4000 units and they have been delivered to appliance stores all over the country and they are selling like hot cakes.

The spares finaly arrive and fred (or his wages technician) takes about three quarters of an hour fit the laser to your unit and assemble the case( the case is wierd and has 27 screws in it), the remaining 4 he knocks over in about 25 minutes.
He is in Queensland so inspite of doing no 240volt electrical work on the item he has to do complete electrical safety tests and issue a certificate of test.

he now has 24 of the units including yours in the shop, word has got back to the local appliance stores and they havn't ordered any more..... but they sold every one the had.

you come in pick up your unit after it being in freds workshop for 7 weeks and you have owned it for just under 9 weeks.

fred has to pay for the laser on a 30 day account that gets shut down cold on 45 days.. it cost $90 trade, he gets $45 flat fee for fixing a DVD player under waranty. WHIZBANG australia pay for their waranty claims after 60 days.

There is an error on the WHIZBANG database and the serial numbers on Freds waranty claims do not match up with the dodgy database so WHIZBANG are disputing 36 of Fred's claims. The matter is sorted but it is 90 days before fed get paid for those 36 claims, Fred has been out of pocket on those claims alone for over 90 days and to the tune of near $6000.

This might seem a bit exagerated, but I know radio & TV guys who will tell you it sint all that far fetched.

So you see how you can easily go broke doing waranty claims.

cheers

[Reel Nauti]

You should be in business oldboot.

Dave

[oldboot]

I am........ but a wages job is realy looking good.;D

[PinHead]

I am........ but a wages job is realy looking good.;D

I could never go back to working for a boss again...but then again, doing a 40 hour week would seem like heaven also.

[whichway]

Hi

Mr T seems to place a high degree of blame on his accountant and the unnamed boat supplier.

I think that if you run a business, you need to achieve the balance between placing responsibility and trusing your employees to do what you require, but also monitoring what they are doing.

I don't think you can blame an employee for taking you business down through their incompetence. I think you need to have checks and balances in place to ensure that your employees are doing what you require.

With regard to the unnamed supplier, I think that is a consequence of poor accounting and management. If you monitor your finances, then alarm bells should be ringing a long time before things get serious enough to cause your business to be in trouble.

Sounds easy when it's put like that, but in reality, this is very difficult, so I do have some sympathy for Mr T. But you can't just blame others either.

Whichway

[Reel Nauti]

Very true!

Strange how Hairman has gone quiet?

Dave

[AnthonyL]

AnthonyL.

Hope all goes well for you on Sunday, looks like a good day..

Cheers


Thanks Chickenhead lol.

I am self-employed so usually work 6 days per week and really look forward to my Sundays off.

A very good customer of mine called today and has to have a job done urgently and I just can’t fit her in so I am going to have to work on Sunday morning for 4 or 5 hours.

Will get the boat ready tonight after work then head off soon as I get home Sunday.