yammy v merc 60hp four stroke ( my e-tec blew up)

[BUCA T]

Hey guys, would love some honest reports of performance and reliability from anyone who has a 60hp four stroke yamaha or mercury. my e-tec has been in to the shop 5 times in 12 months to have minor dramas fixed and now it has a hole in the piston. i go out fairly wide with my boat and cant stand unreliable motors so the e-tec is going to be goooone! any feed back would be sweet.


buca t

[Chimo]

I'd still want to know why there was a problem and get it fixed on warranty so even if you choose to flick it you do have something to trade?

Cheers
Chimo

[Noelm]

I don't think you have an Etec problem! what you have is a Mechanic problem, but lets not go there, I doubt that either of those Motors will be better than the other, just get the one from the best Dealer in your area! (not the one you have now, he seems like a dunce to me) look for the total experience, do they have a good reputation? do they have a good parts/workshop area? let that be the decider, not the brand.

[ozbee]

sorry to say but if you go to a yamha or merc dealer they have blown motors too

[Tim_N]

I think, and may be corrected on this one, but the Yamaha and Merc 4 stroke powerheads are identical, well they used to be, they are all made by Yamaha. They are good reliable, light engines and ther also come in Bigfoot or Hi Thrust models for swinging larger props.
Tim

[Tim_N]

Yep,
I've just checked it out, they are the same. Both 995 cc and 65mm X 75mm bore and stroke.
Both good, it will depend on where you can get the best deal and who is the better agent.
Tim

[TheRealAndy]

I have a 4 stroke 50 yam, and our yacht club has a 4 stroke 50 merc. I cant comment on the performance differences, as they are on very different boats, but what I can comment on is that the merc 4stroke is definately a lot louder than the yam.

[Jabba_]

Don't worry about which brand is most reliable or economical. If the mechanic for that dealer is a dunce, your going to have some problems....

As for that E-tec... In the shop 5 times in 1 year is a friggin joke, then a hole in the piston, that too would send me searching for a differant motor also... As Noelm stated sound like the mechanic is at fault.. What ever you do don't buy from the same dealer were that mechanic works

[chucknduck]

Had a Yamaha 60 four stroke for 6 years, never missed a beat. Other guys I know with them would rate them the same.

Mick

[Noelm]

hhmm I wonder why we have not heard a peep from Buca T since the first anti etec barrage, but who knows, he may be genuine and just not about at the moment.

[Dean1]

Cant wait to get my new f60's :D No more pouring stinkin 2 stroke oil into the 2 smokes. Etcecs have taken 2 smokes to new heights but you wont see me pourin that oil in ever again, only in my 15 mariner ;D Go the yammie 4's their a proven bulletproof little motor, yes a few have failed but geez theres a #%@*load of em out there!! Deano.

[Noelm]

just wait for your first home Oil change, it will bring a whole new meaning to the words "pouring stinking Oil" or more the point, cleaning up stinking Oil! but they are good, not knocking in anyway (sort of)

[Spaniard_King]

Yeh Dean, watch you don't spill too much of that 2.2L of oil per engine::)

If I were you Dean I would cut a 44 in half and use as a drip tray so you don't loose any:o

[Tim_N]

Ive got a F50, just had the 1000 hour service done and it is going great, always has done. If these engines are going to let go, it is most commonly the crank and it usually happens between 1000 to 2000 hours. Having said that, it is rare that it happens anyway. An excellent mechanic who has been in the industry for ever said in all his time, he has only seen maybe half a dozen let go and it always as above. I'm averaging about 6 to 7 l/hour and could not reommend the Yammies enough. I will be upgrading to a F60 if and when the F50 goes to heaven, which I'm hoping will be in another 1000 hours time.
Tim

[Noelm]

it's not the amount of Oil or how you put in, it is how you get the old Oil out!

[Spaniard_King]

I would like to know how an engine that is as complex as an Etec that gets a hole in a piston would be the fault of the mechanic.. WTF.. you guys are kidding yourselves.

Start with your explanations cause I am ready!

[Spaniard_King]

it's not the amount of Oil or how you put in, it is how you get the old Oil out!

Probly get it out through the sump plug hole Noel;)

[Noelm]

the reason it is/could be the Tech is, because it has been in the shop 5 times and still not fixed, if the guy knew his stuff, it would have been rectified on at the most maybe the second or third visit, a Motor that has a fault and continued to run, will result in a big problem as has happened here, and I still stand by my post way back, the original guy has still not come forth, I think it could be a stir, and I am not kidding myself, been around for far too long for that to happen.

[Noelm]

OH, have you drained yours via the sump plug yet?

[Spaniard_King]

OH, have you drained yours via the sump plug yet?

Sorry Noel, I don't own one I just service/fix em::)

[cormorant]

hhmm I wonder why we have not heard a peep from Buca T since the first anti etec barrage, but who knows, he may be genuine and just not about at the moment.


Give the bloke a chance. At least he had photos and really does own one unlike many people who say they have failures etc. I'd like to know the cause as there isn't a huge number of failures in any of the new motors. I know from another thread he was having trouble with a cowl seal but I wonder what other issues the visits to the shop were for and if this could have been picked up earlier.

Be very interested in what the download of the ECU tells the mechanic about the failure as if it was cooling related it should have gone into limp mode and if it was fuel related ? Wrong propping can cause extra load and bad lugging but haven't heard of one letting go and there is some terribly set up boats out there that seem to survive. Did it lean out too much - fuel restriction or injector issue as the user wouldn't notice any lack of power? Wrong oil setting or oil - possible but would have expected a seizure not a piston to go? Low octane old stale fuel wil do it?

Be interesting to hear what the cause was.

Either way sorry for gettin off topic an dhope you get a good motor whatever the brand to replace it.

[Noelm]

OH, OK then, have you drained one via the Sump plug? doesn't need to be yours, (a Yamaha that is, not your Honda) and I still say, I am not knocking the Motor, I would gladly have one (or two) but the fact remains, there is a guy with a "new" Motor that has been in and out of "hospital", it has now failed altogether, there is no mention of the Dealer fixing it, they have said they will not trade an Etec, so let me see if there is something is not quite right, I think there might be!

[Spaniard_King]

the reason it is/could be the Tech is, because it has been in the shop 5 times and still not fixed, if the guy knew his stuff, it would have been rectified on at the most maybe the second or third visit, a Motor that has a fault and continued to run, will result in a big problem as has happened here, and I still stand by my post way back, the original guy has still not come forth, I think it could be a stir, and I am not kidding myself, been around for far too long for that to happen.

Noel we are assuming too much without hard facts.

As usual we only get one side of the story and usually a biased one.

This engine should be fixed under warranty unless there is an underlying factors

Still amazed why a high tec engine can melt holes in pistons!

[Noelm]

fully agree, but untill we do get the full story, all we can do is surmise and hope it all comes out well for him, but I still think there is more to the story.

[BUCA T]

hey guys cheers for some of your feedback the e-tec is getting fixed under warranty. it just f%&$s me off that you can spend your hard earned on an outboard that is meant to be one of the best and it f#$%s up. lucky i was still in the river and not 50kms offshore where i was headed. cheers for the feedback keep it coming.


BUCA T

[Spaniard_King]

Be very interested in what the download of teh ECU tells the mechanic about the failure as if it was cooling related it should have gone into limp mode and if it was fuel related ? Wrong propping can cause extra load and bad lugging but haven't heard of one letting go and there is some terribly set up boats out there that seem to survive. Did it lean out too much - fuel restriction or injector issue as the user wouldn't notice any lack of power? Wrong oil setting or oil - possible but would have expected a seizure not a piston to go? Low octane old stale fuel wil do it?

Be interesting to hear what the cause was.



Cormorant, I know you have 1st hand experience and I beleive as you do its a fuel related issue, IMO an injection issue and I base this on only being damage to 1 piston as if there is damage to more than 1 piston other causes would come into play.

Noel, I still don't get your point re: draining of a 4 stroke sump???

IMO.. go the cheaper of the 2 engines ;D

[BUCA T]

Hey fellas it not a hoax ok my motor has s$%t itself. and to clarify the first few dramas werent related to the hole in my piston. For your info first time was a blown fuse, next the tilt wouldnt work properly, third was the tilt again, fourth was the cowl seal went all munted and you guessed the next one .... boooom!
The dealer that wouldnt trade it wasnt an e-tec dealer.

dont get me wrong i was happy with the fuel economy and hole shot from the e-tec but i just dont think engines with a stuff all hours on them should be blowing up!

BUCA T

[cormorant]

Hey fellas it not a hoax ok my motor has s$%t itself. and to clarify the first few dramas werent related to the hole in my piston. For your info first time was a blown fuse, next the tilt wouldnt work properly, third was the tilt again, fourth was the cowl seal went all munted and you guessed the next one .... boooom!
The dealer that wouldnt trade it wasnt an e-tec dealer.

dont get me wrong i was happy with the fuel economy and hole shot from the e-tec but i just dont think engines with a stuff all hours on them should be blowing up!

BUCA T


Glad it is getting fixed ( so it should if only to show good faith) but any idea of the cause?. Hate to get it back with a new pot for the same to happen. Hopefully they will supply a fully dressed powerhead so they can take yours away and diagnose what actually happened and extend your warranty back to the full length. Everyone should get some trouble free time with new motors as they are across brands pretty bloody good

Welll bugga me I didn't think there was issues with the trims as I thought they were solid as and at 50 hours that is pathetic. I tell ya BT it s#%$#$s all of us with any motor issues there days as you expect more with technology and tolerances being so good and we all suffer from the I'll never buy Holden again thoughts when the Kingswood breaks down in the rain.

These days all good manufacturers should just swap out faulty parts under warranty and stop making it a consumer issue and they would get a lot better loyalty. A lot of this has to do with the dealer you deal through.



PS I still don't like the idea of paying $80 plus an hour for someone to undo a sump plug no matter how hard it is to get to. And for the extra kilo why didn't they make the sump 1litre bigger to give longer service intervals and make life easier for the oil?

[ozscott]

I stuck this in another thread, but if the computer (on any modern fuel injected outboard) leans out the mix too much (ie a fault in the program or a sensor etc) cant the engine blow...unlike a properly set up carbed smoker running fresh fuel?

Cheers

[pilchardjones]

gday buca,
i recently looked at both the yam and merc 60 4 strokes here
http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/showthread.php?t=130909&highlight=best+60hp

I ended up getting a merc (bigfoot), but that was mainly due to the dealer service i get. both are very very good i believe.
steve

[MeePee_99]

I got a 30 merc 4 stroke efi and it is great, cant fault it!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mick71]

i have twin f60efi high thrusts with 17pitch props.awesome motors done 300hrs.pushes my plate centrecab 900kg hull only. beautifly 4000rpm 21knots for 20l/ph.trolling at 9knots 10l/ph.thats with full fual 300litres and 4 guys abourd.wouldnt buy anything else than the yamahas.

[breamnut]

Cant wait to get my new f60's :D No more pouring stinkin 2 stroke oil into the 2 smokes. Etcecs have taken 2 smokes to new heights but you wont see me pourin that oil in ever again, only in my 15 mariner ;D Go the yammie 4's their a proven bulletproof little motor, yes a few have failed but geez theres a #%@*load of em out there!! Deano.
i agree both yammie and merc's have failed but the amount of etec's ive seen and herd of failing compaired to yammie or merc is alot and there are more yammies and mercs on the water compaired to etec!
both motors a great just go for the one u can get the best price on!

[bugman]

I also have a new Yamaha 60 four stroke HDPI. Gotta say - it has never missed a beat although only done a few hundred hours so far. Great - in fact unbelievable fuel economy - quite - but yet still able to tow a skier and or tube.

I swing it with my hand off a 5m Brooker open dinghy. You're not going to get a bad word out of me - lets hope it stays that way.

Brett

[Jabba_]

I would like to know how an engine that is as complex as an Etec that gets a hole in a piston would be the fault of the mechanic.. WTF.. you guys are kidding yourselves.

Start with your explanations cause I am ready!
If the mechanic misdiagnosed the problem, like they did on my motor...

In my situation they thought injector #1 was the problem.. They change it did there test and were confident they fixed it... I took it for a test run and I was not satisfied that the problem was rectified. I took the boat back,,, and told them what symptoms were still present... They then went on to do further test, and replaced the EMM and Injector #2... And it has ran perfect ever since...

IMO my motor could off gone off with a bang, had I not taken it in straight away when I felt there was a problem with it.... Now the symptoms I had were very minor... IE, sometimes it would take 2 key turns to start, there was a very slight miss at idle, my prop hub started to get soot build up after one outing... That was enough for me to make an inquiry take the boat in to get it check out..... Had I just left it, I could off blown the motor,
and had I not been so anal and just assume the mechanic fixed the motor the first time, well, it could off blown up again also...

As you know Garry the E-tec uses temp sensor to make adjustments to the mapping.... By the sound off Buca t problem, he had one injector lean out, and that is a problem..... even had there been an O2 sensor,, how would it pick up a lean injector, when it samples the gasses for all the cylinders....

Another thing to remember about these E-tec's is... Each injector and be individually adjusted to run richer or leaner via the dealers diagnostic computer... Had the mechanic made adjustment to the injectors to fix an earlier problem, he could off unwittingly caused the power-head failure.... My dealer showed me that trick,, but he said he never uses those adjustments to rectify a problem, but only to identify a problem...

[disorderly]

i agree both yammie and merc's have failed but the amount of etec's ive seen and herd of failing compaired to yammie or merc is alot

Oh here we go another armchair expert....and he's not even old enough to make up stories at the pub yet.http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/rolleyes.gif

Breamnut, just how many E-Tec's have you actually SEEN that have failed??

BUCA T ...mate I hope it gets sorted out ..sounds like Spaniard King thinks its an injector lean out problem on that particular cylinder??

As for the other problems ...well they shouldn't have happened but a fuse ,a cowl seal and a tilt problem (what was the problem...just electrical?)really shouldn't reflect on the motor itself...

Please keep us informed of the motor problem though.....that's a worry for such a young motor..

[Scott nthQld]

I've got, a 60hp 4str yammie, and I think its brilliant, very quiet, starts first time every time, very good on fuel (i get 44mile out of 20L so 2.2mile per ltr, pushing a 4.8m runabout loaded with gear).

[death_ship]

it really plays on you when you cant trust your outboard, good luck

[Spaniard_King]

If the mechanic misdiagnosed the problem, like they did on my motor...


IMO my motor could off gone off with a bang, had I not taken it in straight away when I felt there was a problem with it.... Now the symptoms I had were very minor... IE, sometimes it would take 2 key turns to start, there was a very slight miss at idle, my prop hub started to get soot build up after one outing... That was enough for me to make an inquiry take the boat in to get it check out..... Had I just left it, I could off blown the motor,
and had I not been so anal and just assume the mechanic fixed the motor the first time, well, it could off blown up again also...

As you know Garry the E-tec uses temp sensor to make adjustments to the mapping.... By the sound off Buca t problem, he had one injector lean out, and that is a problem..... even had there been an O2 sensor,, how would it pick up a lean injector, when it samples the gasses for all the cylinders....

Another thing to remember about these E-tec's is... Each injector and be individually adjusted to run richer or leaner via the dealers diagnostic computer... Had the mechanic made adjustment to the injectors to fix an earlier problem, he could off unwittingly caused the power-head failure.... My dealer showed me that trick,, but he said he never uses those adjustments to rectify a problem, but only to identify a problem...

Jabba, thanks for your imput:tekst-toppie:

Not being picky but if all Etec owners arnt so "anal" this could be an issue.

O2 sensors have a much wider scope for lean burn feedback and could "Possibly" have saved this!

Funny how last time I checked with a BRP tech they wern't allowed to mess with engine mapping for the chance of stuffing this up:o

[Spaniard_King]

it really plays on you when you cant trust your outboard, good luck

LOL, I caught the first one;D ;D

[lippa]

yammy looks sexier.

just like me...................................

[tin can marlin]

I would be going the yamaha based on dealer back up and it has got the best resale even if your etec was still perect it would never have the resale of the silver one i think it is a simple chose. I would deal with wayne and the boys over at stones they seem to have the best deals and have been one of the longest serving yamaha dealers around You have a look and you won't find a bad word on ausfish about them. By the way i don't work for them etc but i have delt with them before.

[barra_cuda81]

Ive got a 07 Yammie EFI 60hp with just a touch under 100 hours, and i can't fault the performance and economy from it. Best thing is, is that I've just made a new mate through social sport who is a local Yamaha Dealership mechanic who will do my 100 hour service for next to nothing and can get whatever parts i need at cost price......Awesome!!!!

[Jabba_]

Jabba, thanks for your imput:tekst-toppie:

Not being picky but if all Etec owners arnt so "anal" this could be an issue.

O2 sensors have a much wider scope for lean burn feedback and could "Possibly" have saved this!

Funny how last time I checked with a BRP tech they wern't allowed to mess with engine mapping for the chance of stuffing this up:o

Very true, problem is, it is all too easy for the Mechanic to make those adjustment, but as I was told, it has been set like that in the software so the dealer can pin-point a crook injector.... With my case when they leaned out injector #2 th idle returned to being perfect,,, Which ment that injector was runninng rich, and hence that injector was also replaced with a new one....

I also agrea with you regards to the O2 sensor, but I guess BRP think they can cover there bases with temp sensors... Personaly, whats wrong with running both Temp and O2 senors...... But do you rally think that the O2 would pick up one cylinder burning lean.... I would off thought that wouldd be near imposible for the O2 sensor to do..... I have had a fair bit to do with tuning Ford BA/F's with the SCT software... And with the BOSS V8, if we dial in an agressive tune to where it's right on the razor's edge, and we still do a spark plug check to see if any cylinder is running leaner then the others,, because we know that the O2 sensor wont pick up on a single cylinder running lean....

[death_ship]

LOL, I caught the first one;D ;D
hehe i censored myself

[Spaniard_King]

Jabba,

IMO.. they havent gone for or intend to go for an O2 Sensor due to the time it takes for a cylider to lean out and cause damage on a 2 stroke, It just happens way too fast. So I guess your right..no point having one if it cant save them:o

[finding_time]

First of all i've got 2 f60's high thrusts on my KC done 550hrs so far and apart from a load of crap in some fuel they haven't missed a beat! looking forward to about another 2500hrs with any luck before any big problems!;D Before that i had a f80 yami on my ub (600hrs) and it never missed a beat either! I'm sold!;)

I'm also supprised that the mechanic is being blamed as this engine was only 1/6 of it's way to it's first service and as the previous complaints had NOTHING to do with this fault how could it be the mechanic be to blame. Maybe SEA RAIDER knows he's an E-tec expert!;) Been quite on this thread though!:-/


Noel


OH, have you drained yours via the sump plug yet?

Yep i know what you mean!;) I love it when Garry services my f 60's i sit up on the transom ,beer in hand just waiting for him to undo those sump plugs, it's a crack up! He undoes the plug and then..............doesn't spill a drop, hahahahahahahahaha Bloody funny!!!;D

Ian

[Steven78]

Nothing on TV where is the pop Corn :)
I now own an Etec so far its been great just had a 100hr service done. I would think about buying another brand as motors change. My last motor was a Merc and i had a few issue that was manly due to the service agent which will remain unnamed. As for the 300 hour service interval i personal dont like that idea as i would hate to try and undo the bolts.

[2manylures]

I would like to know how an engine that is as complex as an Etec that gets a hole in a piston would be the fault of the mechanic.. WTF.. you guys are kidding yourselves.

Start with your explanations cause I am ready!

Beat me to it. Good onya mate! In your corner.

[cormorant]

I stuck this in another thread, but if the computer (on any modern fuel injected outboard) leans out the mix too much (ie a fault in the program or a sensor etc) cant the engine blow...unlike a properly set up carbed smoker running fresh fuel?

Cheers


Carb motors with a air leak or varnished up jets (restricted flow) can lean out as well with bad fuel also a prob.

With the metal the pistons and coatings are made of I'm wondering if it is melted (unlikely) or more likely shattered by detonation or knock or even a rod through it? Possible just a simple part failure by the piston.

Love to see a photo of it?

In regards to an O2 sensor the ECU can work out when the motor is under load ie revs compared to fuel to achieve those revs. This is why jabbas one ( assuming a injector was not fully working??) had carbon in the exhaust as the ECU tried to compensate for the extra load and richened up the mix to reach correct revs. Only one injector richened up and it ran dirty - so yes the other pot may have run lean however at some point ( hopefuly before failure if BRP have done thieir homework) the matrix in the ECU determins if there is an issue and should go to limp mode checking with water and head temp. ECU assumes motor is propped correctly. In Jabbas case I would have pulled the head ( or scoped it) and checked the bore and piston surface just to be sure there was no damage and done a decarb and then new plugs. They probably replaced the ECU as a precaution so they didn't have you coming back again.

Yep I'd like no assumptions and another 20 sensors on every motor including individual o2 sensors and exhaust temp probes on every pot along with a fuel flow meter to every injector and anometer in every throttle body as that is the only way you can 100% determin air and fuel mix exactly and prove it is in the cylinder.

As for a BA they are trying to get a 3 star motor to run at 3.5 stars so the sensor is a cheaper option than a parts rework is my thoughts. Do the Ba have an exhaust temp sensor as well?


Hey Gary if your motor died after 50 hours with unknown cause would you accept a rebore or want a new fully dressed powerhead with full years of warranty on it? If I was BRP I'd want that complete powerhead unmolested so I could see why it failed. Hope that is what happens.

[Spaniard_King]

Hey Gary if your motor died after 50 hours with unknown cause would you accept a rebore or want a new fully dressed powerhead with full years of warranty on it? If I was BRP I'd want that complete powerhead unmolested so I could see why it failed. Hope that is what happens.

Undoubtedly I would want a new power head with full warranty on the parts replaced and I would want it in writing from BRP.. not from a dealer

[ozscott]

Thanks Cormorant - I suppose thats why in a perfect world carb 2 strokes should be getting a carby clean every season or 2, and certainly every season if the motor is not used much and fuel is sitting in the float bowls and evaporates leaving varnish.

Cheers

[cormorant]

Thanks Cormorant - I suppose thats why in a perfect world carb 2 strokes should be getting a carby clean every season or 2, and certainly every season if the motor is not used much and fuel is sitting in the float bowls and evaporates leaving varnish.

Cheers

Your saviour is that a non injected 2 stroke and a carby 4 run much richer than they ever theoretically need to so a slight varnish on jets won't definately kill em. Have also seen brass jets affected by bad fuels and they pit and swell but still haven't see a death because of it leaning out but enough to hit temp alarms.

[soggy1]

My cousin has the 60 merc 4st on his boat the main thing he hates about it is the fact that if the outboard even gets the sniff that there's a sand bar near by sand gets caught in this one spot every time and the outboard goes into limp mode, sometimes he can fix it on the water other times he has to limp home and clean the sand out he has had the part bored out but it still blocks upapart from that he hasn't had any major dramas.:)

[ross_woody]

Recently installed a 60 4 st Merc, currently around 15 hours. To early to comment on fuel until 1st service - but cinsiderbly better than my 3cyl 40hp Merc. Was looking at installing a 50hp Etec but 2 cyl against a 4cylinder engine was no comparision. Heaps of grunt and starts with ease. Everyone comments on Etec comes with a standard SS Prop, for an additional $150 I was able to upgrade the prop.