Trailer Bearings

[rando]

Ive just finished replacing the bearings on my trailer(first time for me)
One wheel im pretty happy with, Right hand wheel,spins ok but pulls up after two or three revolutions. I completely filled the hub with grease,,,, Too Much???
Left wheel , full but quite as much!!!

Right hand wheel also had a bit of trouble getting the split pin in, I was sure I seated the bearing cup properly, but now I wonder if I did ,as the nut was 1/4 turn tighter than i wanted.

Can anyone offer me some advise please? as Im towing it to Iluka tomorrow?

[lippa]

http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/showthread.php?t=131730&highlight=bearings


have a look at this thread, it may help, there are a heap more if you do a search as well.

ya can also youtube it to find videos on bearings

cheers

lippa

[disorderly]

Ive just finished replacing the bearings on my trailer(first time for me)
One wheel im pretty happy with, Right hand wheel,spins ok but pulls up after two or three revolutions. I completely filled the hub with grease,,,, Too Much???
Left wheel , full but quite as much!!!

Right hand wheel also had a bit of trouble getting the split pin in, I was sure I seated the bearing cup properly, but now I wonder if I did ,as the nut was 1/4 turn tighter than i wanted.

Can anyone offer me some advise please? as Im towing it to Iluka tomorrow?

Had exactly the same thing happen doing my bearings today,though I couldn't get the split pin in at all...had to pull the wheel back off and the outer bearing back out and tap the bearing cup in a bit harder with hammer and screwdriver....First try I didn't want to damage it and subsequently had not seated it right in.(was only maybe a mm in it though)

I doubt you have too much to worry about though if you could actually get the split pin in and still spin the wheels...maybe just check it after the trip and see if it has loosened up.



Hope you get a few fish down there http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/smiley.gif.

Scott

[ozbee]

Most wheel bearings fail new from over tightening not lossenes . The second most reason bearings fail new is because of too much grease not to little. My engineering handbook back from my apprentice days always said bearing housings should only be one third filled. Firstly if your wheel will not spin easily like a dozen turns you have actually preloaded the bearings. this means you have tightened the bearings by the nut to a point they have seated plus the small amount between the cone faces (both outer cone and inner cone) yes the wheel will still turn but you will feel a slight drag as it rotates. it is this tolerance where the grease has to lubricate. Unfortunately the further you drive the heat build up expands the distance between the bearings which speeds up failure.

(the two bearings not the two faces)

WHY IS TOO MUCH GREASE WORSE THAN LESS

grease is fundamentally made up of two major components one is oil which is the lubricant and secondly fat which is the carrier


Oil is pretty straight forward

The carrier is designed to hold the oil in contact with the bearing surfaces but most importantly that after a certain amount friction{heat generated} it will melt thus allowing fresh grease to be able to come in contact with the surfaces . also it has the ability to re solidify when it cools, so the cycle can go round and round . When you have excess grease it draws the heat out delaying the grease close to the bearing to melt so unfortunately the rotation of the grease is actually slowed right down between the bearing surfaces . hence less bearing life .

Turn the nuts back another quarter to a third turn would give you the ...005 thousand of a inch clearance to both bearings to enable proper lubrication .

Hope this helps also greases have come forward a hell of a lot with countless additional lubricants many which are fin ate solids designed to fit between those tiny wearing faces to lengthen bearing life .

[rando]

Ozbee
Thanks I had a feeling I had heard you can put too much grease in.
I was operating on the principal, that if it is FULL of grease the water wont get in.
Also. neither wheel had a flat washer between the nut and bearing,this might pose a problem if I add a washer I may not be able to put the split pin in.
This is sounding ugly!!!

[Roughasguts]

I don't know about putting to much grease in. Cause that's how bearing buddies work by removing any air pockets in the hub, therfore no water can get in and destroy your bearing races.

But if you put to much grease in you push out the rear seal, that's where to much grease will fail a hub.

My current bearings are 8 years old on gal hubs with bearing buddies fitted, mind you very low mileage.

On the other hand my Box trailer is 29 years old, hardly any grease in the hub and still original bearings.

[backlash08]

ozbee is on the money - tapered roller bearings should run zero end float and zero preload, definatly do not over grease, too much grease retards cooling, if grease is not on the bearing it is doing nothing to help as the nature of the lubrication is 'dynamic' lubrication and using the oil out of the soap to lube the bearings. bearing buddies do work and work well however use one evil (excessive grease) to over come a bigger evil (water) in the perfect world you wouldnt have excessive grease or water - personal choice in the end
cheers
Craig

[Roughasguts]

ozbee is on the money - tapered roller bearings should run zero end float and zero preload, definatly do not over grease, too much grease retards cooling, if grease is not on the bearing it is doing nothing to help as the nature of the lubrication is 'dynamic' lubrication and using the oil out of the soap to lube the bearings. bearing buddies do work and work well however use one evil (excessive grease) to over come a bigger evil (water) in the perfect world you wouldnt have excessive grease or water - personal choice in the end
cheers
Craig

Hi Craig, mate I still don't know can you over oil ? no you can't! so how can you over grease ? Sure grease doesn't dissipate the heat like oil will, but if it's there it's liubricating isn't it? grease will break down with heat, and turn almost to oil provided it's hasn't been there for years and already dried out.

Sure you have to clean the hubs out and replace with fresh grease, but you also have to do that with finely greased bearings as well,

Grease does dry out.

[disorderly]

Really interesting discussion guys.
Certainly never heard the "too much grease is bad" theory before but keen to hear more...
Wonder if it has come about because of different grades and types of grease....
Is it a problem to use a lower quality general purpose grease in bearings rather than a specified bearing grease?
What is the actual physical difference between a low quality and high quality grease?

Scott

[backlash08]

Guys,
Agree, interesting discussion. There are significant differences in greases, they have different base oil viscosity (like lubricanting oils) and different soaps. basically grease is like a oil in a sponge, the sponge is the soap in a grease, the type of the soap (lithium, clay, calcium etc) will influenece the drop point, the point at which the oil will freely drop away from the soap. Also the soap in the grease holds no more tasks than simply holding the oil in place, soaps have disadvantages such as not displacing heat, retaining water etc.
Now to the questions, grease will not lubricate even if it is in the hub but not in contact with the bearing, generally grease will not drop oil out until arounf 150c, wheel bearings wont run anything like that temp (assuming bearing are in good order and correctly adjusted) so grease that is not in the area close to the bearing will never 'bleed' down to the bearing and lubricate and will only hold the heat in, hence my point why too much grease is bad. In marine and dirty environemnt grease may be the better of two evils (keeping out dirt or water like a seal) but it is far from good to have too much grease apart from sealing purposes.
On the question of good quailty vs lower quailty greases - oils aint oils so they say, quailty is influeneced by the quaility of the base oils and polymers used and the type of soaps that are used, ability to withstand water washout, oxidation and tempurature stability are all very important characteristics of grease and a tribologist could write 10 books on this subject alone. the real trick with grease is using the correct product for the application, a grease that may be excellent for a high load low speed application could fail very quickly in a high speed application like a wheel bearing or electric motor.
The trick for us boaties, use a reputable brand wheel bearing grease something like an NLGI 2, lithium complex soap - I use Castrol APXT and have done for years

In my opioion use new seals and bearings every 12 - 18 months, dont over (or under) grease (bearing and a small palm amount of grease in the hub only), run no preload or endfloat and you'll never have an issue

http://www.castrol.com/castrol/genericsection.do?categoryId=8000001&contentId=6008468

[rando]

Clee
Sounds like Ill have to take all that grease out.

Roughasguts...
Yes,when I fitted the front bearing I had grease expressed through the rear seal.
If I reduce the amount of grease and clean up the seal contact faces, I should be allright??????

And now to the question of the washer.
There was none fitted,
Should I fit one
If, when fitted, I cant get the pin in do I then not worry about a washer, or do I wait to leave till I can get an appropriate shim to fit????

Rando

ps
I used Evenrude marine wheel bearing grease.

[backlash08]

Rando,
you should have a washer, just dispalces the load a little better from the bearing onto the nut and stops fretting , but its not an absolute game breaker,
without looking at it, I would take a bit a grease out of the hub, if the seals were new (and im assuming they were) they'll be fine just put the hub on, fit the washer (if you can get one) tighten the nut up tight to make sure that everything is bedded in, back the nut off and adjust the wheel bearing, as far as the grease you used, dont know anything about the brand so i assume it would be OK
cheers - Craig

[Roughasguts]

Rando, yeah it should have a washer between the castle nut and the bearing.
If your having trouble fiting the split pin have you trimed it back to fit, it should be no longer than the last pin that was in. Trimming split pins and banging them tight up agains't the castle nut to get them inside the cap is aceptable practice.

[rando]

Thanks guys
Your info is great, Ive found a few washers that should do , but they are pretty heavy gauge.
The problem with the pin is that the hole is somewhat covered by the nut if i back it off say 1/2 turn from finger tight.
What im going to do, is, get some of the grease out, install the washer, then pinch it up hard with a spanner then back it right off, then tighten it, to a bit back from finger tight , and see if the pin fits.
I'm using the empty trailer to carry all our gear , bikes, kayaks etc etc. And i don't yet have a spare wheel ,so i cant afford to get this wrong with a three hour drive ahead.
Thanks again, the old "Ausfish brains trust", what a great bunch you blokes are.
rando

[rando]

Hi Guys
I got the grinder out and gave these washers a bit of a grind, reduced the
thickness buy about a mm, soooo, even with the thinner washers the pin wont go in.:'(>:(
Can I drive this without a washer.:-/ Possably explains why no washers were installed to start with.
rando

[Chimo]

Hi Rado

In your situation used to jack it off the ground, fit it all together as it should be, tighten up nut; holding spanner close to the nut so as to lessen torque force.

Then back off nut 1/4 turn and attempt to fit in split pin. If it wont go in, back off nut until split pin goes in.

Loose is heaps safer than too tight. Never had any hassels doing it as above.

Cheers
Chimo

[Mindi]

Listen to Clee....I used to always pack grease in until I got the message and also used to run a small lateral preload..like moderate spin= 1 rev of wheel only but now I run first pin slot not preloaded and only pack the bearings themselves well and a little in the caps.
Personally I have found best quality rear seals and lauching cold where possible much more effective than Buddies at keeping water out...I am unconvinced about BBs but wouldnt run an argument about it

[Roughasguts]

Ouch! does the nut hold both the inner and outer tapered bearing in place.
For example if the outer bearing where to slip off the hub would the nut hold it in place, or would it grind on the nut and shear the split pin, then your wheel falls off. Not desirable.

You might be better off looking for new better sized (thickness)castle nuts, then fit washers as well.

[rando]

The inner face of the nut completely covers the inner race , the small space created by the rollers and the lip of the outer race have no contact. I am not sure whether bearing design allows it to maintain integrity under lateral load if the entire outer face of the bearing is not "seated" if you know what I mean.
Sorry if this sounds stupid Im not very mechanically educated.

[Blaster Bretty]

Rando... I replaced hubs + bearings on my old trailer and found that the split pin hole wasnt even visible and seen bearing cup wouldnt go on as far as it should, after removing all the new gear and cleaning the shaft I found lots of very small chip marks and scratche's and dents on the face where the bearings should go, looked like someone had trouble getting an old set of bearings off before I bought it all,. what I done then was grab some wet n dry sand paper and smoothed off all the dents and stuff and found that the bearings went on a whole heap better, so much better in fact that the the castle nut now goes about 2 turns past the split pin hole.
And yes you should use a waser between castle nut + bearing.
And yes I too have heard of too much grease being worse but only in high RPM machinery.... not trailer hub's, maybe in truck trailers because of the excess weight but in all honesty if you check your trailer at regular interval's throughout your trip for things like heat build up and wobbly thing's etc (like you should) I really cant see how too much grease can hurt.

Bretty

[FNQCairns]

One tip when seating cups is to listen to the tenor of each strike when driving it home, a seated cup is unmistakable in sound. The driver you are using will also buck back more with each strike once seated.

I have found from doing this lots to trailers, then useing them from cradle to the grave that I can be a lot rougher than I would normally be with most things mechanical without fear of a problem as a result.

It was a relatively painful job the way I use to do it, live and learn, one thing though the work area MUST be spotlessly clean, one grain of dirt can ruin a good day-one day.

Grease I fill as full as I can, taking absolute care to fill the rear bearing areas chocker! no air bubble exists between rear bearing and rear bearing seal this has proven over time to give the longest lasting results.

I think if I were repacking a D9 excavator or the like the bearing handbook would be correct and packing chocka, not a good long term choice.

Automotive seals forever if dunking, standard marine seals I will not use even if given to me.

O yeah I also smear a goodly amount of grease behind the hub where the stub exits and the seal meets the stub.

Always if unsure, seat the bearing looser rather than tighter, you can always come back to it a month later and nip it again or pull it apart and check for an installation fault as routine, if you go too tight the memory may fade as well as the bearing far too early, as an unpleasant surprise.

cheers fnq

[Maccas]

Rando,

I have changed lots of wheel bearings and other bearings on farm machinery etc and have never had a situation where the bearings don't have a washer between the bearing and the nut. Are you sure that you have the correct bearing with matching cup for that axle. If the cup isn't the right one for bearing then that bcould be your problem or maybe the bearing and cup are the wrong ones for your axle. Otherwise the cup may not be far enough into the housing it may need to be pressed in. Sometimes it just requires a good thump with a hammer on a sleeve or socket that is slightly smaller than the cup so that is does not bind. I often use the old cup to get it started and square then use a socket with a flat bar on top of that to protect the socket.

Cheers,

Maccas

[rando]

Hello again everyone.
A big thanks for all your advise.
I used the old cup to seat the new ones.
I took the whole hub etc to a bearing shop near here and they gave me the appropriate sets(japanese) and I am pretty sure I drove them home, i didnt pussyfoot at all.
Not to say I was cavaliar about damage to the cup face ,,,Then I dove the old cup out again.
I have adjusted the grease in the hub, my main fear was blowing the seal, but I wanted to make sure there was plenty of lube.
As I said before, I filled the hub with grease from the back then slid it onto the axle ,my aim was to prevent any water getting in.
We have decided to go tomorrow now, so maybe I can get a nut and washer combo that will fit.
Can anyone suggest where I can achieve this , I am on the inner northside
Once again thanks for the help as I had decided to go without the washer , You have turned that around and perhaps saved me some grief....
Good on you all for the time and patience, to help me out.
rando

[Blaster Bretty]

Rando.... go to supercheap auto now before it close's and you should be able to grab a nut + washer combo there or one or the other, Take an old set in with you to make sure you get what your after, good luck in Iluka and leave some fish for me!!!

Bretty

[Mindi]

Clee
Sounds like Ill have to take all that grease out.

Roughasguts...
Yes,when I fitted the front bearing I had grease expressed through the rear seal.
If I reduce the amount of grease and clean up the seal contact faces, I should be allright??????

And now to the question of the washer.
There was none fitted,
Should I fit one
If, when fitted, I cant get the pin in do I then not worry about a washer, or do I wait to leave till I can get an appropriate shim to fit????

Rando

ps
I used Evenrude marine wheel bearing grease.


Rando

Thats not Etec grease is it...?

[rando]

Take it easy Mindi, dont start the Etec Debate here!!!!

Bretty
Supercheap dont have the nuts and washers I need , anyone else got a suggestion???

[Roughasguts]

Rando, obviously your in trouble here, so I would pull that bearing out clean the shaft up and use emery paper to remove any burs on the tapered axle shaft what ever you like to call it, make it smooth.

Have you got the right bearing Holden ? Ford. Pre HK, Or HQ holden ? Size does matter.


Then when you put the bearings back on bang them hard home with a suitable sized socket, you wil know by the sound when she's seated hard.

As mentioned by FNQ,

To be honest and harsh, wheel bearings are it is not rocket science, lets face it the wheel was invented many years ago, all it needs is adeqate lube tolerance for expansion and a smooth bearing surface, and a descent retaining nut and washer, hell it was made out of wood years ago.

I check my wheel bearing by sound if you put a screw driver against the axle place your ear against that then you can here any roughness or distorsion when you spin the wheel, if it binds makes a noise replace the bearings easy.

If no noise and some lateral movement when pulling the wheel side to side then no further investigation is required, even better.

When pumping grease in to bearing buddies only pump enough grease so as the little plate behind the grease nipple just wobbles, any more and you can pop the rear seal.

That there grease gun can pump over 3000 psi remember that! it's got awsome power over a a seal, go easy on the grease gun and bearing buddies.

[rando]

Pulled one of the hubs , cleaned the axle with two grades of sandpaper,
Lots of pitting on the taper.
Gave the bearing cups a few bars of "You WILL remember me"with a big drift , no movement.....
Bearing back, washer on , NO F.....G split pin hole.:'( The washer is only about 1mm.
where can i get a shim that will do the job?????
The hub sit up hard on the rear seal, so I figure the back bearing is where it should be, It can only be the front bearing that is not seated but ,I gave it some so Im satisfied its home, sounded home too.
Has to be the wrong nut?????Is there different gauge nuts for axles???
What have i missed???
Boy am I pissed off, This should be an easy job as Roughasguts said ,,,,not rocket science.

[Roughasguts]

Rando, what blades you got for your grinder ? you got a thin one that can cut down a bit deeper in to the castle nuts groove ?

I know it's rough, but no integrity on the nut should be lost, but if your in a bind I would rather do this than go with out a washer.

[Roughasguts]

Rando, do you get what I mean ? cut down with your angle grinder 2mm deeper in to the turret of the castle nut where the split pin goes! it should only take a few seconds, and you can use the washer as well.

Should be a easy fix.

[warrior]

doing mine tomorrow not looking forward to it

[rando]

Got it mate , thanks.
Ill have to get a thin blade tomorrow.

[rando]

Warrior
If I can do it its got to be childs play.
Ive just come up against a trailer that has either the wrong bearing or the wrong nut fitted.
If not for that, its all straight forward.

[rando]

In an effort to understand what the problem is here (nut or bearing size) ,I counted the threads on the axle ...14,and with the bearings in place, 13, is it fair to make the assumption then that these bearing are the right size and the nut is the faulty part???/

[upstart]

Hey Rando, use a bench grinder to take a poofteenth off the outside of the old cups and then they make a great tool for bashing in the new cups.

[Blaster Bretty]

Poofteenth.....Ha ha ha ...what a hoot .. Havnt heard of a poofteenth before, very funny indeed

Bretty

[Seahorse]

a poofteenth, same as a bees dick

[lippa]

just cut the old cone through, with a grinder, will come out peice of piss!

[ozscott]

poofteenth of an inch has become a recognised measurement in engineering/boilermaking circles...be surprised if it is not on Winkapeedia now...

I have not done my bearings for 4 years but I have bearing buddies, check play from time to time and dont take the boat out more than once to twice a month when the fishing is good and sometimes not for months when they are off the chew or the weather is bad etc...and I always grease the bearings before I go...

Cheers

[Blaster Bretty]

OMFG.... you are kidding.... A poofteenth is a recognised measurment, does a "bees dick" come under or above the poofteenth or maybe it falls between the micron scale???
Still find it funny

Bretty

[ozscott]

Bretty - it depends on how well hung the average bee is and what the estimators experience is with bees appendages...but on the whole I would say a poofteenth is about a bees dick.

[Blaster Bretty]

Bretty - it depends on how well hung the average bee is and what the estimators experience is with bees appendages...but on the whole I would say a poofteenth is about a bees dick.

I will now go and buy a magnifying glass to inspect my trailer bearings and any insects that may "bee" nearby. LOL

Bretty

[northernblue]

As ozscott correctly mentioned a poofteenth is old speak, wheras a bees dick is metric.

[black runner]

This really need to be clarified.

A poofteenth is a fixed measurement and used more so in engineering applications that require greater precision. ie usually between 40/1000" and 1/64" whereas the "bees dick" is used for variable measurements. ie a "bees dick" can be shorter or longer depending on the situation (ask any bee) and more often used in the building industry - eg when locating a wall frame, one would say "to me a bees dick";)

[upstart]

Crikey, didn't I stir up a can of worms!!

[dnej]

Then again,when no bees are available,you can use a 'gnats cock' measurement,which is used mainly in the building industry
David

[ozscott]

:) David has of course just posted the holy grail of precision measurement at the micro level...indeed when electroplating the turbines of F-111's at Amberley Air Base the 3AD electroplaters often resorted to that holiest of measurement when adding 'meat' to the blades...it was then able to be measured to 10 decimal points on the digital scales and always found to be accurate...

[Cheech]

Are you sure it is a bees dick? When I was in the trade we referred to it as "half" a bees dick. Or are you just exaggerating the length by an extra half because this is a fishing site.

[ozscott]

...you may have us there Cheech:-[

[Blaster Bretty]

Hang on a minute bloke's, we started with a "poofteenth" then progressed to a "bee's dick" then along came the "gnats cock" and then from out of nowhere we get a "half bee's dick"...... Thank god its origin night,
Oh and hope the bearing's go great rando!!!

Bretty

[rando]

Well, well ,well!!! you guys have certainly been enjoying discussing, the orientation and or variability of insect appendages,,, not sure how it has any bearing on bearings.::)::);D;D;D

The out come ,,, of the trailer saga is that we eventually went without the washer and we checked the hubs regularly for heat..... none,,, yippee.
The final word came from an engineer at the bearing shop,,,, washer not essential
Problem analysis..... the pin hole has been drilled in the wrong place, solution ,,,drill a new hole.
Thanks everyone for your advise
rando

[cormorant]

Crikey, didn't I stir up a can of worms!!


How big is a worms willy ?/ bigger or smaller than a poofteenth?

Glad you finally sorted the trailer.

[Blaster Bretty]

Good to hear the bearing saga is sorted rando and that you had a good trip at the end of it all, also good to hear that the washer is not essential but I will still use one none the less but as you said that advise came from an engineer who also pointed out the incorrect pin hole.
And as for the "poofteenth" saga, after chatting with a few people in the engineering circle's, I have found there is also a measurment called "a fly's forskin" then in commorant's last post I seen a "worm's willy" so at the end of it all i've come to the conclusion that all these insect reference's mean ..... just take a wee bit off the shaft with emery tape or very fine wet n dry paper!

"SHEESH"

Bretty