Running Costs

[Mindi]

Just working out running costs for a DI 2 stroke vs a 4 stroke given the better fuel ecomomy of the 4 stroke and the lower service costs of the DI 2 stroke.

Assuming 100 hours usage per year, and fuel $1.50 a litre( I wish) and test figures say the 4 stroke is 20% more fuel efficient then over three years the operating costs would look like this .


Opti75 Fuel@14.3 l per hour (@3500rpm) = $2145 plus service $1707 plus oil $160 = $4042

Suzi 70/90 4 Stroke Fuel @ 11.5 lph = $1725 plus service $1077 plus DI oil $0 =$2802

Etec 75 Fuel @14.3 = $2145 plus service $0 plus DI oil $160 = $2305


So dont overestimate the importance of fuel economy in your boating costs, A good 4 stroke will save you fuel and oil costs of maybe $500-$600 over three years against a DI with its expensive Synthetic oil...but lower servicing costs (in Etec case at least) are much more significant.

Sure there are heaps more things missing from total cost of ownership like purchase price, depreciated value, tow vehicle costs etc etc...also the first Etec service at 300 hrs after the three years is not included here which would not get by Australian accounting standards.

[Kleyny]

i would hate to say it mate but your thread might turn into another 4 stroke Vs etec battle.

neil

[disorderly]

i would hate to say it mate but your thread might turn into another 4 stroke Vs etec battle.

neil

Think that's the general idea,Neil.http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/wink.gifhttp://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/grin.gif
Sounds like mindi is missing those good old motor battleshttp://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/grin.gifhttp://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/grin.gif.

But hey, aren't those E-Tec's little beauties,though.
Be crazy to buy anything else, really.http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/wink.gifhttp://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/grin.gif

[peterbo3]

Have fun getting that Etec lower unit off after three years. Or, factor in the costs of dropping the leg every 100 hours to check your impeller.

[ozscott]

popcorn please - fri night entertainment coming up

[Mindi]

this was a mistake..it was not about Etecs at all...it was about the fact that servicing costs get much less discussion than fuel costs and yet are more significant. I dont own an Etec, have a Mercury 2 stroke and have had 3 Yammies, 3 or 4 OMCs and a couple of Mercs.
With cars and motors I believe that the selling price is so competitive that dealer profits are almost entirely dependent on service revenue and we should be thinking about service costs more than we do...thats all.
Peter...I Dont Have An Etec

[peterbo3]

Mindi,
I did not for one moment think that you were running three different engines but just made a general observation about the need to check your water pump every year. This will cost if done by a dealer.

[TimiBoy]

Come on, someone rev it up a bit, huh? This bunfight stopped before it started. No fun at all!

I shall just pop in here - not indicative of my feelings towards any particular brand, but I DID see a 250 ETEC towed in two Fridays ago to Raby Bay. When asked what was wrong the owner produced the following "%$#^%$# piece of %$%$@ seized!!!!"

I was parked at the pontoon having a cry over my buggered water pump (been shale mining with my Verado) so I did feel very sympathetic for the poor sod.

I'd been saving this tidbit for a rainy day, and right now it's pissing down here!;D;D;D

Cheers,

Tim

[ozscott]

I have always kept out of this debate and dont own any modern outboard, but seriously you cannot say $0 per year for servicing an e-tec or similar because at the very least the leg needs to be dropped and impeller replaced every year or so
and the engine greased at the grease points; prop off and cleaned prop shaft, re-grease and back on; whilst some of us might choose to do some or all of this ourselves, many (perhaps wisely...) would not. I reckon that no-one in their right mind would purchase an e-tec and not do the basics for 3 years...if that is indeed what Bomba' Corp recommend (I havent read their warranty terms).

Cheers

[ozscott]

I reckon any modern 2 stroke is more inclined to burn over the fine line they run on to too lean and then big problems

[Outsider1]

Has nobody seen the results of all of this popcorn and beer.!!!!:P:-X

We are all obese punters, this has got to stop!!!:-X;D;D

Righto, rant over back to the show;D;D

Cheers

Dave

[Seahorse]

that $2415 is for 1 year not 3.

[BM]

Have fun getting that Etec lower unit off after three years. Or, factor in the costs of dropping the leg every 100 hours to check your impeller.

WOW!!!

What a load of toss..................

Difficulty removing a lower unit after 3yrs from brand new in salt water?????

Peterbo, I thought more of you prior to the post in this topic.... You have no trade credibility now mate...... You are a tool....

"OR, factor in the cost of dropping the the leg every 100hours to check the impeller"??????????

Why??????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????

When these impellers (like most current brand impellers) are good for several years......

Yep, popcorn please.........

[ozscott]

BTW: I was not suggesting that they will all handgrenade or are likely too...but for my money I would always be concerned about the extreme lean burn condition that they use to get the economy out of an essentially thirsty design of motor... perhaps I worry too much - im talking out of warranty here. Good on anyone who does the guinea pig thing though, because one day I will have to make a choice over modern 2 stroke v 4 stroke...and it wont be easy.

[disorderly]

WOW!!!

What a load of toss..................

Difficulty removing a lower unit after 3yrs from brand new in salt water?????

Peterbo, I thought more of you prior to the post in this topic.... You have no trade credibility now mate...... You are a tool....

"OR, factor in the cost of dropping the the leg every 100hours to check the impeller"??????????

Why??????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????

When these impellers (like most current brand impellers) are good for several years......

Yep, popcorn please.........

C'mon Nick...go easy on the poor old bugger...

He's just a typical new 4 stroke owner
who is quite simply trying to justify the 2 services his dealer tells him are necessary in the first year.http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/wink.gifhttp://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/grin.gif

or it could be just the onset of dementia http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/rolleyes.gifhttp://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/lipsrsealed.gif.

Scott

[TimiBoy]

WOW!!!

What a load of toss..................

Difficulty removing a lower unit after 3yrs from brand new in salt water?????

Peterbo, I thought more of you prior to the post in this topic.... You have no trade credibility now mate...... You are a tool....

"OR, factor in the cost of dropping the the leg every 100hours to check the impeller"??????????

Why??????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????

When these impellers (like most current brand impellers) are good for several years......

Yep, popcorn please.........

There we go, now we're up and running!!!!

[bushbeachboy]

You blokes have well and truly convinced me to stick to the old-tec 2 stroke. Smelly, oily, smoky, service every year, use more petrol, but no arguments, just fishing.:P

[TimiBoy]

When these controversies boil up, we don't see much comment about Suzi's, Yammi's, Johnno's. Mercs can cop a bit, but I have near 300 hours on my Verado and it's wonderful, but why is it that ETECs cop such a flogging?

I don't understand. In management, I have always believed (this is a part of my mantra) "where there's smoke, there's fire." Is it just because the FICHT was so bad? I suspect so, as there's not really much kicking around about ACTUAL problems with ETECS (with the exception of the now 2 I know of that have melted - only one seen with the Mark 1 eyeball), so is it all just smoke, or is there a fire?

Has anyone out there melted anything else? Had trouble with anything else?

- reaching for popcorn - it might help dilute the whiskey!

Tim

[disorderly]

When these controversies boil up, we don't see much comment about Suzi's, Yammi's, Johnno's. Mercs can cop a bit, but I have near 300 hours on my Verado and it's wonderful, but why is it that ETECs cop such a flogging?

I don't understand. In management, I have always believed (this is a part of my mantra) "where there's smoke, there's fire." Is it just because the FICHT was so bad? I suspect so, as there's not really much kicking around about ACTUAL problems with ETECS (with the exception of the now 2 I know of that have melted - only one seen with the Mark 1 eyeball), so is it all just smoke, or is there a fire?

Has anyone out there melted anything else? Had trouble with anything else?

- reaching for popcorn - it might help dilute the whiskey!

Tim

Didn't you just melt a Verado waterpump....would have seen a total meltdown if you didnt get that fixed eh.

[TimiBoy]

Didn't you just melt a Verado waterpump....would have seen a total meltdown if you didnt get that fixed eh.

Nope, just filled it with shale and ripped the crap out of the impeller. Once it was replaced we were back on the water 3 hours later. Entirely my fault, and a good learning experience.

But yes, had we kept going I might have melted it - it might have cleared too, but it doesn't matter what engine it is, if you get a temp alarm, get it checked!

Cheers,

Tim

[Mindi]

that $2415 is for 1 year not 3.

Seahorse...U R Right...I am an idiot. My other costs are 3 years but I forgot to multiply the fuel by 3...and that destroys my whole point because on that basis the fuel cost becomes about 90% of the running cost over three years, and is the most important thing. In fact the Suzi becomes the cheapest in the second year even with it's service costs. The correct 3 year running cost numbers are

Opti 75 ............Total...$8622........(incl. fuel and oil $6915)
Suzi 70/90 .......Total...$6252.............................. ....$5175)
Etec 75.............Total.. $6915..................................$6915)

As fuel gets higher than $1.50 the Suzi will get cheaper sooner. I am now going to watch TV and not looking again.

[disorderly]

Too bad you didn't get an E-Tec, Tim....
Woulda chewed up that shale and spat it right back out...no worries at all.http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/wink.gifhttp://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/rolleyes.gifhttp://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/grin.gif

Scott

[TimiBoy]

Ah Mindi, the solution to your problem is a single word.

Excel (the spreadsheet, not the Hyundai).

Hey Scott, I heard they were about to replace one of the draglines at Emerald with an ETEC? Is it true? Or have I had too much to drink already???;D;D;D

And a great big :P

LOL

Tim

[Kendall249]

You blokes have well and truly convinced me to stick to the old-tec 2 stroke. Smelly, oily, smoky, service every year, use more petrol, but no arguments, just fishing.:P


I'm with you on that one bushbeachboy

[disorderly]

Hey Scott, I heard they were about to replace one of the draglines at Emerald with an ETEC? Is it true? Or have I had too much to drink already???;D;D;D

And a great big :P

LOL

Tim

Wouldn't be surprised,Tim....
I'd say they would give those bobcat's of your's a run for their money in the excavation department(particularly shale ;))....is that what you were trying with the Verado,mate......they would also make a handy brushcutter for those pesky woody weeds.
Oh and kindly keep your tongue to yourself ,please ;)http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/grin.gif.

Scott

[Mindi]

Ah Mindi, the solution to your problem is a single word.

Excel (the spreadsheet, not the Hyundai).

Hey Scott, I heard they were about to replace one of the draglines at Emerald with an ETEC? Is it true? Or have I had too much to drink already???;D;D;D

And a great big :P

LOL

Tim

Oh Tim...the shame of it all is that I built the cost model in Excel to see what the outcome was sensitive to...and STILL managed to not multiply the fuel column by three.....ooooops...!

[FNQCairns]

Little bit of leveling needed, the 75 opti is a big bore 75 (i understand) with the performance of way past any 70 4st, also they do suck some juice although loping along next to a 70 4st at 3500rpm I think you have the fuel burn high - for instance my 90 yam smelly 2st does 15L/H at 3200-3500, which just so happens also works out to 1.9km/L at 4500 all in good condions.

Probably better off to work out KM/L because if one engine has the grunt to swing a prop on the same boat that gets it to the destination 20% earlier it makes a mockery of a L/H specification.

cheers fnq

[TimiBoy]

Oh and kindly keep your tongue to yourself ,please ;);D.

Scott

I subscribe to the Merv Hughes school of tongue etiquette. Wherever I bloody well like to put it!!!;D;D;D;D

But I do avoid the more hirsute of ears. They tend to be too waxy...

[peterbo3]

C'mon Nick...go easy on the poor old bugger...

He's just a typical new 4 stroke owner
who is quite simply trying to justify the 2 services his dealer tells him are necessary in the first year.http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/wink.gifhttp://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/grin.gif

or it could be just the onset of dementia http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/rolleyes.gifhttp://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/lipsrsealed.gif.

Scott

Scott,
No dementia & I am on my second Four Stroke. But our good buddies who import Suzuki, Haines, generously supply me with a Five Year Warranty. That Warranty is, however, dependent on me having the motor serviced each year or every 100 hours.
With a new 175 running out around $19K, I would be a fool to not get the motor serviced as per the Warranty requirements.

[TimiBoy]

Old? Are you referring to me? I prefer "distinguished", or "wise". Old? Bah!

When I decided on the Verado, it wasn't about money. I think were I to do a cost/benefit analysis I would have ended up with something else entirely. I am, however, lucky enough to be in a position to be able to just damn well buy what looks like fun. And a Supercharged 4 stroke is, let me tell you, fun.

That, and the fact that two of my best friends, my Maori staff tell me "Once you've had black, you'll never go back" But I wonder whether they are talking about engines...

I also remember hearing "If it ain't big and black, don't put it on the back"

I also remember hearing lots of stories about Mercs being expensive black anchors, but hell, I'm like the next bloke - I only hear what I want to!!!

Cheers,

Tim

[peterbo3]

WOW!!!

What a load of toss..................

Difficulty removing a lower unit after 3yrs from brand new in salt water?????

Peterbo, I thought more of you prior to the post in this topic.... You have no trade credibility now mate...... You are a tool....

"OR, factor in the cost of dropping the the leg every 100hours to check the impeller"??????????

Why??????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????

When these impellers (like most current brand impellers) are good for several years......

Yep, popcorn please.........

BM,
It is good to see that you believe that inspections & preventative maintenance are a waste of time & money............................................. ...................................


















seeing that you are flogging your pre-purchase inspections at the bottom of every post you put up. ::) ::) ::)

[Seahorse]

i would like to know whats in a prepurchase inspection?

[captain rednut]

hi sea horse a pre purchase inspection involves education prevention about buying crap eeeeeeee ????????????

[TimiBoy]

Pre purchase inspections are a waste. You'd pay a guy to say "It's got an ETEC on it. Don't buy it"???

Mwahahahahahahaaaaaaa!!!!

Sorry...

Tim

[ozscott]

This is really interesting...I expected to wake up to 10 pages of argy bargy...dont tell me members have finally got the shits with arguing of the best modern outboard?

[Mindi]

Looks that way Scott

I was trying to start a discussion about the true running costs of a boat as there are quite a few posts about downsizing for cost reasons...but I mentioned the "E" word and it went straight off the rails never to return....it was a bit of fun for a while anyway.

[Getout]

WOW!!!

What a load of toss..................

Difficulty removing a lower unit after 3yrs from brand new in salt water?????

Peterbo, I thought more of you prior to the post in this topic.... You have no trade credibility now mate...... You are a tool....

"OR, factor in the cost of dropping the the leg every 100hours to check the impeller"??????????

Why??????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????

When these impellers (like most current brand impellers) are good for several years......

Yep, popcorn please.........

Me too! This one-year impeller replacement myth is a rort.
I used to have a really old Johnno. For a few years, I replaced the impeller every couple of years, then eventually I left it go much longer. It always came out looking as good as the one going in.

My new high tech Di Outboard has only had one problem-when the mechanic dropped the leg after 12mths and replaced the drive shaft seal with the wrong replacement. This caused gearbox water ingress and a return trip for repair.
I wish I had let the thing run the manufacturer recommended 3yr interval.

[Noelm]

hhmm looks like Timiboy has become a bit of a funny fella, keep it up, I like a bit of humour, especially in these types of "discussions" they tend to get a tad tedious, so, a bit of light hearted entertainment helps it all flow along a bit, well done! and pass the popcorn.

[Noelm]

I must add, on the waterpump replacement every 5 minutes thing, I am not one for "Brain Surgery" Maintenance, I just do stuff when it takes my fancy, I once had an old pair of Johnson 70's on an Aluminium Cat, had them for 9 years, never replaced a Water Pump in either of them, I used to change the gearbox Oil every Christmas along with the Spark plugs, greased everything I could possibly grease and leave it untill next year, they are still going to this day and they are now 18 years old, and still never had a Water pump replaced.

[Mindi]

I must add, on the waterpump replacement every 5 minutes thing, I am not one for "Brain Surgery" Maintenance, I just do stuff when it takes my fancy, I once had an old pair of Johnson 70's on an Aluminium Cat, had them for 9 years, never replaced a Water Pump in either of them, I used to change the gearbox Oil every Christmas along with the Spark plugs, greased everything I could possibly grease and leave it untill next year, they are still going to this day and they are now 18 years old, and still never had a Water pump replaced.

NoelM Couldnt agree more. You have nicked my maintenance schedule for the 15 or so outboards I have had. Two things to add though...spend $40 or so and buy a little gear oil change pump fitting and do that at Xmas as well as new plugs and fuel filter and grease....and also if you churn sand as I have sometimes done you do wear the tips off the impeller and have to replace it ...but I think I have replaced two in 35 years and 15 motors. As before the annual impeller replacement is a rort and a desperate attempt to provide service revenue to dealers struggling to survive on sales margins (see Mr T this week). The boat/motor retail business model needs modernising somehow.

[Outsider1]

.................test figures say the 4 stroke is 20% more fuel efficient..............


Hi Mindi,

I am interested in as to where you saw those test reports?. I might favour the 4 strokes to be a fraction more economical but not 20%?. To my mind it balances out in the wash, swings and roundabouts on servicing vs fuel and oil costs and the overall total running costs would be pretty similar over the long run.

Cheers

Dave

[skipalong]

its only going to get worse

[Mindi]

Hi Mindi,

I am interested in as to where you saw those test reports?. I might favour the 4 strokes to be a fraction more economical but not 20%?. To my mind it balances out in the wash, swings and roundabouts on servicing vs fuel and oil costs and the overall total running costs would be pretty similar over the long run.

Cheers

Dave

Well the DI test results are Evinrude figures from the Evinrude USA website where they publish many detailed test results with different boats. The link is
http://www.evinrude.com/NR/rdonlyres/6F8B80FE-D047-4DF9-AFA6-570ADE8F6235/0/PE501.pdf

THe 4 stroke one was a Suzuki 70 from the Suzuki website, dont have the link but it was a generally similar boat (about 5m tinnie ) which was a reasonable compare with the Etec 75 in the above link. As I recall in this case the difference at 3500rpm was 22%

Both websites publish in Gals per hr which is case of US Gals is 3.79 litres not 4.54....the typical figures for motors about 70/75 at 2/3 throttle are 11 litres/hour for the 4 stroke and 14 for the Etec..obviously it will change with driver/conditions/prop choice /hull etc etc ...

AS for swings and roundabouts...sure...what happens is that if you do only a few hours ...say 30 per year..then this Etec is cheaper......if you do more than about 50 (I didnt work out the break point) then the fuel costs start to give the 4 stroke an advantage. At 100 hours per year the 4 stroke is $500 cheaper over three years.

Agree is not a huge amount and probably not significant unless you do a lot of hours...then the fuel economy starts to really favour the 4 stroke.


I do know that my old 2 stroke is heaps worse than either and I would be happy with any one of them.

[TimiBoy]

So how many hours do you expect todao in a year? If I only did 100 I'd be really upset with myself. Maybe a poll coming up?

Tim

[BM]

Peter,

Guilty as charged (drinking whilst posting) so I apologise for an over the top original response..

I had typed a nice long reply but did the dreaded "touch the backspace key on screen refresh and Whammo, everythings gone"

I don't why people have such an issue with following the manufacturers guidelines for an Etec engine. They say service once in 3 yrs. So do what they say! No 12 month servicing is required. The handbook states that in saltwater the grease points need greasing each yr and thats it.

I just cannot understand why when the manufacturer says: "service interval is 3 yrs" that people cannot accept that and think it requires annual servicing....

Impellers last a long time. I recently serviced a friends 35 yr old Johnson 100 which hadn't been run in 15 yrs. The impeller was changed as a matter of prudence however the original impeller was still ok. 15 yrs!

Seahorse, a pre purchase inspection should cover the engine, hull and trailer. All the major things like floors, transoms, pinholing in alloy boats, engine compression, gearbox condition, engine running, trailer frame, bearings, wheels, tyres, lights and minor things like missing segments in a sounder or 27 meg display.

A good inspection should give you a clear go/no go on the boat and also hilight any faults it has and the likely cost of repairing such faults.

Personally, I think anyone buying a secondhand boat without have it professionally inspected is crazy, or simply likes to part with money. I have never written a report yet on a boat that had no issues and I don't mean being picky and trying to find something to justify whatever. If a boat is spot on then its spot on, but it never seems to turn out that way.

Cheers

[Mindi]

So how many hours do you expect todao in a year? If I only did 100 I'd be really upset with myself. Maybe a poll coming up?

Tim

I wish I could say the same ...I am lucky to do 50....bugger.