boat licensing

[roz]

Boat licensing has made the headlines down here in NSW, after the tragedy in Sydney Harbour. I'm not suggesting for one minute having a boat license will always prevent accidents, however at least knowing the basics of navigation, would go some way in preventing some accidents that happen each year on our water ways.

As it stands now, anyone without a license can operate a boat, as long as that boat does not exceed 10 knots.

I find this unacceptable.

I don't know about everyone else, but how would you feel about people being able to drive cars on the road without a license, as long as they dont exceed a certain speed??? Just a thought.

roz

[seatime]

Excerpts from a Fairfax Media story on the tragedy:

"The head of Sydney Ferries, Geoff Smith, has told the Government that the rules governing recreational craft and safety on the harbour must be overhauled."

"In March, a scathing report on the HarbourCat crash by the NSW Office of Transport Safety Investigations urged sweeping changes. It recommended mandatory licensing, fitting of improved navigation lights on all vessels, and restrictions on the night-time operation of pleasure craft to prevent accidents.
But the general manager of the Boating Industry Association, Roy Privett, said there were very few serious accidents, and stricter licensing could do more harm than good. "There are not many jurisdictions that have boat driver licences. The US doesn't, and they have 20 million boats on the water. New Zealand doesn't have them either," he said. "Giving someone a licence can give them a false impression that they can go out in any conditions."

Interesting comment from the BIA in NSW!

[Dirtysanchez]

Good point Roz.
Doesn't this exception also relate to minimal horsepower of the vessel, ie it can't be greater than 4hp ? So say for example a boat that has a 140hp on the back but only going less than 8 knots is not exempt ?

Anyway, regardless, its like hoons in cars, or people driving disqualified, having the licence or not having it doesn't physically stop people from getting behind the wheel / tiller / helm, and thinking, I'm right to do this..

In short, there's no real straight forward answer, but certainly it may be a loophole which the government should look into.

With smartcard technology nowdays it would actually be reasonably straight forward to have a system where the motor of the car / boat didn't start unless the correct, validated card was inserted / swiped past.

Hey, that sounds like a business opp :D

[pubgolf]

People with car licences are killed every day in road accidents and no one bats an eye lid at that. It was a very sad night for those involved, thier families, friends and all Australians.

There is a fairly large hire boat industry that i suspect would rely on sticking your average mum dad and kids in a 13 foot tinny with a 6hp outboard on the back.

Somebody in that situation would struggle to get into too much trouble whilst employing a bit of common sense (which isnt very common) .

Lets not do a John Howard here and take the guns off the legitamate hunters.

:thumbsup:

Rod

[disorderly]

Well it looks like the days of young teenaged fella's with their 3m tinny and 5 hp motor that they saved up for will soon be gone....http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/sad.gif
But at least it will give more jobs to useless bureaucrats and heavy handed water police .

Wont be long before we will have to get a licence to ride a push bike.http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/tongue.gif

Scott

[Local_Guy]

I don't know about everyone else, but how would you feel about people being able to drive cars on the road without a license, as long as they dont exceed a certain speed??? Just a thought.

roz

aren't they called P platers

[manchild]

You will always have people with or without licence ,who disregard rules.They took my guns away .Does that mean that certain bikie gang i know of have less guns?I dont think so.Lets not have a kneejerk {yes i do realize a klise here} reaction about the accident .
George

[Reel Nauti]

Licenced or not licenced. If drunk, if boat is stolen, what possible difference could it make. Let's not jump up and down yet, with recommendations for sweeping changes as a result of this terrible Sydney tragedy, until all of the cards are on the table.

Without looking to stir the pot at all, it could also be argued that EVERY vessel must have a lookout at the helm whilst underway. It could also be made law, that a vessel, recreational or commercial underway without an 'on position' helmsman be stopped/boarded and the skipper fined. Goodnight Autopilot.

It takes a government with guts to look at rational and systematic risk prevention, without following the old Howard kneejerk to everything.

There, I'm finished.

Dave

[Simmo2]

Without looking to stir the pot at all, it could also be argued that EVERY vessel must have a lookout at the helm whilst underway. It could also be made law, that a vessel, recreational or commercial underway without an 'on position' helmsman be stopped/boarded and the skipper fined. Goodnight Autopilot.


Dave

Thats not stirring the pot Dave, its just common sense (for most people) ?!!

Who on earth would be underway without a watchman or a suitable radar/electronics system? Good morning Autopilot!

[Reel Nauti]

There's too many near misses, too many accidents, too many ships running aground. Why, well a lot of the time because no-one is 'on watch', and all the electronics in the world is only as good as the mug who installed it or the mug "listening" for it. And as was stated in another thread by a trawlerman, it is common practice for no-one to be at the helm because there is work to do. I'm not looking for an argument here and I'm not laying blame, but surely to God commonsense has got to become law eventually.

As our waterways become busier and busier, with commercial and recreational traffic, I truly and honestly believe that autopilot is a huge risk and should only be operational outside of major traffic areas. If not, then bring in law that to have auto pilot you must also have radar and that must be linked to a 150 decibel siren when within 100 mtrs of another vessel. At least then if the mugs on board don't hear it, the vessel being approached might.

Yeah I'm cranky. I'm sick to death of this completely unneccesary carnage, and I honestly fail to see what is has to do with licencing.

Sorry Roz :(

Dave

[mitch92]

Two words - Common Sense

Yes there may be other issues that may need to be addressed such as autopilots in busy areas however if people still do not use their common sense where does this leave us??

The government is making a bigger and bigger protective layer around young people which makes them think that they do not need common sense and that they can do what they want. Harder penalties need to be handed out to those on the water who are not being responsible.

[dogsbody]

Boats, cars, bikes whatever the only thing having a license will do is to get people to know the rules (sometimes) but it will never, never ever do anything for " Undue care and attention"


Dave.

[rob tranter]

Dirtysanchez

The law only relates to speed travelling, not HP of the Motor, so technically in NSW you can operate a vessel of any size as long as you are not travelling at or greater than 10 knotts..

Why are some of you saying "lets not do a "John Howard"
What about Mr Kevin in 07 "Dudd" his government has just introduced Tax laws to reduce Binge Drinking.
I work at a Pub and the new prices that came into effect last Sunday night don't stop anyone.
He should have reduced the Alcohol content to 3.5% in the premixed drinks, that might have slowed them down.
(Rum should be exempt of course;) )

And before some Gun owners jump on me for my Howard comments, I own Guns as well and yes I'm licensed

And YES I disagreed with what he did with introducing those Gun laws.

Both Skippers of the vessels involved the othernight were licensed, I guess not everyone was watching where they were going.

Anyway thats my Two bobs worth

Rob T8-)

[Dreamweaver]

It's a fair question Roz.

Over here in the (wild ::)) west, we've recently past the April 1 (good date huh? ;D) deadline for all but very lower powered boat skippers to have what we call a 'Recreational Skipper's Ticket (RST). You have to pass a theory (multiple choice) and simple practical test (boayage, simulated man overboard, emergency stop, and launch/retrieve, safety brief & radio protocol). There was hell on when it was originally introduced a couple of years ago (2 year lead time on it being mandatory).

It IS a step in the right direction, but is a far cry from making you a capable and responsible skipper. Only experience and the right attitude with a wise regard for others and conditions and the unexpected will do that!

Unfortunately, no amount of registration/licensing will guarantee an instilled and ubiquitous sense of responsibility. So we'll continue (unfortunately) to have devastating and very tragic stories posted in the press.

Oh, and 'common sense' is the worst phrase in the English language - hence the expression:

'COMMON SENSE - Everyone's got it, but there's precious little of it'

(no offence intended Mitch 8-))

[Fish Guts]

i was under the impression both skippers involved carried commerical tickets, so increasing licensing couldnt have prevented such a tragedy. In regards to auto pilots on commercial boats i thought that it was a survey requirement for a sleep/ buzzer alarm to be compulsory for auto pilots on commercial vessels. the boats i worked on always had them and had to press the button on the auto to stop it from disengaging, about every 10 or so minutes it went off.

[Chimo]

Hi Roz

My late Dad summed it up pretty well even though at the time i may not have agreed with him
"Your born stupid with no common sense, eventually you get smarter and may or may not get some sense and then you die, possibly stupid and usually with heaps of common sense."

If you add grog to the mix and a dash of stupidity and a desire to impress females and or maybe some males too and then things at night in an arena that is not all that friendly then you have the potential for a disaster. Licence of not will make little difference as one person affected by tiredness and or grog will turn someone elses workplace into an even more difficult and dangerous place to be.

The lights on the water on Syd harbour make it hard at the best of times. Its bad enough going thru there in daylight.

Take the grog out of the night and there may not have been an issue apart from the alleged unauthorized use of equipment and alleged failure to comply with regs re loading and safety etc.

Its a bit like going out partying and drinking in any big city; there are many extra risks that depending on your stage of life you expose yourself too........... or not.

Mumblings of a GOM................

Cheers
Chimo

[roz]

I just would like to clarify a couple of points.

I don't think a license would help a boat driver who is stupid enough to be ten parts full ...... same goes for any type of vehicle.

It's just at the moment ANYONE can, in NSW navigate at boat, possibly up to 19.81 meters, without having the foggiest idea what a green channel marker means, what an isolated danger marker looks like, identify a cardinal marker and know what that means... also know which vessels have full right of way, and one of the most important rules (in my view) which way to steer, to avoid an approaching boat coming from the opposite direction?

Again, this is just my view.

But in my view the law as it is right now needs to be looked at.

thanks for you responses.

BTW What has this got to do with guns?????????

[Dreamweaver]

Roz,

Does that mean in NSW you don't have the equivalent of our Recreational Skipper's Ticket? :o

(you are certainly right about stupidity!)

[seatime]

My late Dad summed it up pretty well even though at the time i may not have agreed with him
"Your born stupid with no common sense, eventually you get smarter and may or may not get some sense and then you die, possibly stupid and usually with heaps of common sense."
Chimo

Pretty accurate summation of "common sense". Unfortunately 'sense' isn't a 'common' commodity.
'Common' sense is a learned and taught sense, it's not something that comes naturally with age. What may be common to you or I, isn't necessarily common to someone else, so if they haven't learned from experience, it needs to be taught to them, IMHO.
Licensing, whether it's boats or cars isn't meant to replace learned experiences and the confidence, and competence, that is developed over time. It's a very low standard implemented by authorities that's designed to provide the basic knowledge of operation to get a participant started. The experience and confidence they later gain ideally sets them up as a safe operator.
They're a licence to learn, IMHO.

Qld has a practical component in licensing that isn't present in all the other states, which I feel could be improved upon.
I like the idea of the Young Adult Licenses in some states outside of Qld. Why not get them involved at a young age and teach them right? Typically their parents are showing them the ropes and passing on their knowledge and experience.

The timing looks right for an overhaul of marine operations and licensing requirements in NSW, more people, more money, more boats, in all states not just NSW.
Why isn't there uniform licensing in Oz, isn't it time the state and territory marine agencies (members of NMSC) developed a plan, or are they afraid their little empires will crumble.

cheers

[PinHead]

I do not believe there is a relevance between car and boat licensing. You can easily fail a car driving license test. If you can comprehend some English you cannot fail a boat license test. Therein lies part of the problem..they give them away.

[Simmo2]

Roz,

Does that mean in NSW you don't have the equivalent of our Recreational Skipper's Ticket? :o


I think in QLD, if the motor is under 4 or maybe 6hp you do not need to comply with licencing and 'normal' safety reqs....

However anything bigger, regardless of its possible speed, would require at a minimum a rec lic.
I have heard of some millionaire fella trying to dock his new flybridge at a pontoon out at the reef here...
A skipper from another boat (charter) kicked him off the helm and berthed it for him. The very influencial owner of the flybridge had only a rec ticket and had absolutely no idea how to manouver his boat.

[Dreamweaver]

Yup Simmo! Like I said, any entry nautical qualification is just that; a basic introduction that doesn't really teach you to handle a boat. But it is a start.

Still; I'd like to know if NSW has a skippers ticket ?

[seatime]

Yup Simmo! Like I said, any entry nautical qualification is just that; a basic introduction that doesn't really teach you to handle a boat. But it is a start.

Still; I'd like to know if NSW has a skippers ticket ?

From NSW Maritime's website:

Boat Driver Licensing

The speed at which a boat is driven determines whether a person needs to be licensed.
Any person who drives a recreational powered vessel on NSW waters at a speed of 10 knots or more must have a boat driver’s licence.
Ten knots is the speed at which most accelerating boats will start to plane – that is rise up and skim on top of the water instead of ploughing through it.
The exception is anyone who drives a personal watercraft (PWC) at ANY speed must have a PWC Licence.Types of Licence

General Licence


A licence for people aged 16 years and over to drive any vessel, except a PWC at 10 knots or more.

General Young Adult Licence

A restricted licence for those aged from 12 to under 16 years. A Young Adult Licensee must:

be accompanied by the holder of a General Licence when travelling at 10 knots or more
never exceed 20 knots
never travel at 10 knots or more after sunset and before sunrise
never travel at 10 knots or more when towing an aquaplaner
never tow a water skier or wake boarder
not drive in any race, display, regatta or exhibition without prior consent from the NSW Maritime and
never operate a PWC unless the holder of a Young Adult PWC Licence.Personal Watercraft (PWC) Licence

A special licence is required to ride a PWC regardles of what speed it is driven. To obtain a PWC licence, the test for a General Licence must be passed first. Additional test questions must then be passed. Persons who hold a General Licence can upgrade to a PWC Licence at any time by undertaking the PWC Licence Boating Safety Course correctly answering additional questions.

Young Adult PWC Licence

A restricted licence for those aged from 12 to under 16 years who wish to drive a PWC. The same conditions which apply to the General Young Adult Licence apply to this licence. A Young Adult PWC Licence holder must be accompanied by a PWC Licence holder when operating at a speed of 10 knots or more.

Licence Period

A General Licence or PWC Licence is available for either 12 months or three years. You will save money by selecting a three year licence.
A one-year General Licence is issued as a paper licence and a three year licence as both a paper and plastic card. All PWC licences are issued as plastic photo identity cards.

How to Obtain a Licence

Anyone wishing to obtain a boat licence, must first undertake compulsory boating education either by studying an online Boating Safety Course, viewing a DVD/video Boating Safety Course or attending a Boating Safety Course conducted by NSW Maritime or an accredited agency. A nominal fee will apply.

[Lucky_Phill]

Quote " As it stands now, anyone without a license can operate a boat, as long as that boat does not exceed 10 knots.

I find this unacceptable. " Quote.

And so you should, Roz

As mentioned in above posts, Australia wide uniform laws in relation to Licences is required. I personally believe that anyone with-out a licence should not be " in charge " of a vessel, regardless of length , speed or HP.

The " tourist " laws do allow for other circumstances, but in the case of motor vehicles, you ALWAYS require a licence, tourist or not.

Historically, many of todays anglers / boaties have parents that have owned boats and therefore the experience ( common sense ) has been passed down. Unfortunately, there are huge numbers of boats hitting the waterways and many of them have skippers with no experience.

In Queensland, regulations were introduced some years ago for those that wanted a Marine Driver Licence:-

### In Queensland, a marine licence is required to operate a recreational boat which is powered by a motor greater than 4.5 kW (over 6 HP) and you must have a personal watercraft (PWC) licence (http://www.msq.qld.gov.au/Home/Licensing/Personal_watercraft) to operate a PWC.


Obtaining a Queensland recreational marine driver licence

To obtain a Queensland recreational marine driver licence you must:
be aged 16 years or older
demonstrate you are competent to navigate and manage a recreational boat by successfully completing an approved BoatSafe licence training course
provide satisfactory evidence of identity - a photographic Queensland driver licence (current or expired less than two years) is acceptable. ###
I think the Boatsafe Licence Training can be improved, although this is a step in the right direction.

Like a motor vehicle licence, the Marine Licence allows for a test/ course on calm water in basically safe and comfortable waterways ( gelsec may wish to add to this presumption ? ).

Give that 16 y/o a boat licence, borrow his Dad's 625 Cruisey and take several mates over a bar and offshore... disaster looming. Worse still , as stated above, add alcohol / darkness or bad weather.... !!!!!!

Yes I know, age is no barrier to lack of commonsense, judging by what one sees on the water, and in particular the Broadwater down the GC.:o

I know you cannot test a driver for their respective licences in all conditions that would be encountered throughout their driving careers, but certainly an improvement in current ' testing ' undertakings is needed.

ON a personal note, I have taken my kids ' boating ' and put them in control of my boat/ boats. This is under strict supervision and instruction given while doing so in regard to Beacons, other vessels, water conditions etc.... this done, my eldest daughter undertook a marine driver training course and gained her licence as soon as she hit 16. She was complimented on her boat driving ability and regulation knowledge.

No mention of guns ;)

Cheers Phill

[Lucky_Phill]

Just a bit more info for Qlders

Unlicensed drivers

Unlicensed drivers may drive a boat provided a licensed driver is onboard supervising and is able to take immediate control of the boat. Unlicensed drivers must not operate boats while towing someone else by a line attached to the ship including for example, someone waterskiing or riding a toboggan or tube.





Queensland's virtual licence

In 2000, Maritime Safety Queensland changed from a paper-based boat licence to a virtual licence. Licence details are recorded in a computerised database which is accessible by on-water enforcement officers such as Water Police and Queensland Boating and Fisheries Patrol.
New licensees will only be issued with a printed confirmation statement verifying they hold a recreational marine driver licence if requested. The virtual licence is valid for life. All current Queensland recreational marine driver licences, (including the old speed boat driver's licence and recreational ship master's licence) automatically become life-time licences.
If you are going boating interstate, you should carry a confirmation statement as proof that you hold a Queensland licence.
Recreational marine driver licence holders are advised that proof of their licence may be required when hiring a vessel and the confirmation report serves this purpose.



Phill

[Dreamweaver]

The speed at which a boat is driven determines whether a person needs to be licensed.
Any person who drives a recreational powered vessel on NSW waters at a speed of 10 knots or more must have a boat driver’s licence.
Ten knots is the speed at which most accelerating boats will start to plane – that is rise up and skim on top of the water instead of ploughing through it.
The exception is anyone who drives a personal watercraft (PWC) at ANY speed must have a PWC Licence.


Sorry, but I find that basis for a boat licence bizarre - how can you possibly 100% police that? At any moment, people could exceed that speed. :o

[seatime]

Like a motor vehicle licence, the Marine Licence allows for a test/ course on calm water in basically safe and comfortable waterways ( gelsec may wish to add to this presumption ? ).

Cheers Phill

Some factors to consider when doing the RMDL course - the chosen location to undertake an approved course, the prevailing weather conditions on the day, and the type of vessel used for training (genuine maritime experience of the trainer is another possible factor).

We depart Manly Harbour and test the practical component in Partially Smooth Water. There isn't the luxury of choosing the weather on a Saturday, or any other day of a scheduled course, so we operate in any condition up to a Strong Wind Warning broadcast (25 knots).
The last few months have regularly seen 15-20 knot winds and 0.5-1.0 metre seas in Waterloo Bay around Green Is and towards Wellington Pt. We've run courses on each weekend.
If the student is intending to go boating in offshore waters, doing a course in a dam may not fully prepare them for the conditions they will encounter leaving port and venturing offshore. But that's the student's choice.

Boating is carried out in a dynamic environment and it's not possible to control weather conditions on the day of testing.
No-one is suggesting it's a perfect system but it's better than what went on before BoatSafe. Baby steps are required after completing a course.
How far should testing go, do we test at night, in torrential rain, in high powered craft at breakneck speeds, towing skiers, tiller steer, twin engine, bow thrusters?
What about towing trailers, why isn't that included in a car licence?

Students do at times fail the practical component, in fact they are found NYC (not yet competent). They return another day, or schedule some personal training if needed. Sometimes confidence or stage fright are a factor, and repeat manoeuvres are required.

As with any type of licensing, control of their actions is firmly in the hands of the operator after they've achieved the qualification.