Marine Parks, Bag and sze limits

[coucho]

Ok this thread was inspired after reading through the Charter that almost ruined fishing thread, however rather then pull that one completely off track with what I wanted to say, I thought I would start a new one to find peoples opinions on how well our fisheries are managed here in Australia.
I for one support the idea of marine parks and think there sould be more of them. I would also like to see a review of size limits to give adult fish more of a chance to breed before they can be taken. I would also like to see a total in possesion limit of say 20 fish per person on top of the existing individual species bag limits already in force.
I don't think that there has been a 90% reduciton in fish stocks as pointed out in Charter that almost ruined fishing thread but if you think there are as many quality fish around as there was twenty or thirty years ago then your kidding yourself. If you also think that the commercial sector is soley responsable for this then again your kidding yourself. Yes I agree that the commercial sector has a big impact on fish stocks and reform needs to made to current commercial activities too.
Having said all this people will no doubt think I am a greeny but I am not I love my fishing and I take home a feed. I don't throw fish in the icebox though unless they are a good way over the size limit my attutide to this is if you need to measure it its not big enough I also do my best to make sure the fish I put back have a the best possible chance of survival.
I want to be able to take my grandkids out fishing in 30 years and have as much fun and catch fish with them as my Grand dad with me. If this is gunna happen I think changes are required and some attitudes need to change. The kill em all days are done there is just to many people fishing for that to work anymore.
Coucho

[billfisher]

Any sustantial fishing effort will lead to a reduction in fish stocks Coucho. The genearal public and some anglers tend to see this as unsustainable fishing. Actually maximum sustainable yield for most marine fish stocks is when 30% of the original population is left. The changes in population dynamics mean that recruits benifit from less predation and less competition for food. In theory fish can be havested at the MSY indefinitely.

Note too that Aust. has the least fished waters in the world with 1/30th of the world average fishing pressure. The benifits of marine parks are theoretical and not proven in practice as a fisheries management tool. You are more likely better off to tackle overfishing head on. Given our light overall fishing pressure in this country there is therefore no need to rush into declaring marine parks.

[coucho]

Some good points there billfisher.
I still would like to see an increase in a lot of the minimum legal size lenghts and I don't think there is any doubt that marine parks help to protect the more local reef type fish however as you point out this has yet to be proven. I don't believe more roaming fish like snapper or pelagics benifit a lot from the parks however as you pointed out.
The problem with the theory of MSY is how do we know when there is 30% of the original population left how many are there now? how many was there originally? do we assume that cause average commercial catches are do by 70% then we must be at the 30% level? I also think 30% is flying close to the wind not a lot of room there for a look out before the oopps too late.

[SunnyCoastMark]

Hey Guys,
Sustainability is not the only issue here (although it is the bottom line). The thing that concerns me is how we as fisher folk are percieved in relation to our catches. Make no mistake Marine parks are coming to your local area - How much is actually locked up is still open to conjecture at this point.

This is why we have to be careful in what we post.

By and large, we practice catch and release; we stick to size limits and bag limits. Of course there are always the exceptions (who always seem to be down at the local wharf or jetty keeping everything they catch - no comment as to their ethnicity:-X ).

My concern is not with the photo's of average to good size catches, but with the photo's of large "piles" of fish. Esky fulls.

Now you andI know that these events are few and far between - but never let the truth get in the way of a rabid greenie - they will take that one photo and use it over and over again. Like I have said before - we need to be smart and not freely give our "opposition" ammunition to use aginst us.

Commonsense is not a word that applies to the zoning of marine parks and while we hope that the government will do the right thing - often that is not the case.

The best action at this stage is to talk to your local member, send them an E-mail or twenty - let them know that we do practice what we preach and want to protect our fish stocks - so our kids and their kids have plenty to catch.

Mark

[PinHead]

what do you mean by Marine Park ? Moreton Bay is already a Marine Park or are you talking about green zones inside marine Parks.

[coucho]

Not necessarily talking about green zones restrictions on the type of fishing done even maybe a closed season on some areas? And I wasn't refering to Mortern Bay I think that has quiet a good amout of green zones allready.
But on the subject how long has Morten Bay had green zones and has anyone noticed any change in catches? Moretn Bay is a pretty well fished area isn't it?

[CreelReaper]

Hey Coucho,
I do agree with you in theory.....if your wanting marine parks for the improved management and subsequent perceived increase in fish populations is your intention. Yes there are some fish species that could have an increase in size limit....the humble bream for one!!!!
We all believe as you do that certain things have to be done but it is our own difference in experiences that dictate what we think is best for all. Commercial fishery does contribute to the overall picture (netters not charter boats) in that the nets don't discriminate. It doesn't matter how many fish a boat full of line fishers catch the school would never be decimated. I am not arguing for or against. As an example many years ago we fished Fraser for a full week catching tailor, dart, bream and whiting (I counted 602 vehicles parked one morning at "our gutter"). Everybody was catching fish. The netters moved in chasing 'mullet' and took the lot. Not another fish was caught in that stretch of water for 3 days, and the netters tooks "tons of mullet' away. We all have a right to use our waterways for recreation or making a living though.
The conservation approach however is much broader than just rezoning a specified area for ever more. I believe the Brisbane river has seen a surgeance in fish stocks due to no more dredging and improved water quality. I also believe there is more pressure on fishing nowadays as opposed to even 5 years ago. Reducing the number of professionals will help but is not the answer. Look at the mangrove system around Brissie and how much it has changed in the last 30 years. Look at the amount of seen/unseen pollution that has been dumped in our waterways over time. Look at Oxley creek 10 years ago???? compared to now. Limiting us to fishing areas or away from zones is one way, but lets also look at the other alternatives. The EPA should be addressing these issues as well but I believe it is easier politically to just zone everything off.
Improve the water quality via reducing pollution. Increasing the natural buffer zones of mangroves that also promote marine life and natures own way of filtration. Look at the ramifications from dredging that are still being carried out today in some parts of our bay.
Some places that have been zoned will not improve if we continue to pollute them as we do. Sad fact I know but a reality. That in turn will only be helped if we keep zoning more areas and this is not the answer.
This requires a large committment from a number of government and local user groups with full cooperation. We do not want to see catch and release only. We all want the choice to keep a feed if we want. We all want to see out grandkids catch a fish too. Putting all our collective eggs into the one basket (zoning)is not the way to go......we must look at the picture as a whole and remove ourselves from the blame game and jump in, collectively take responsibility and get it done.
I also believe that nearly 100% of ausfishers think the same and do their bit. It is the once or twice a year mum and dad fishers with little Johnny and Mary and the ethnic groups that have to catch up on everything as well.

Cheers

Shane

[CreelReaper]

Hey Coucho,
I do agree with you in theory.....if your wanting marine parks for the improved management and subsequent perceived increase in fish populations is your intention. Yes there are some fish species that could have an increase in size limit....the humble bream for one!!!!
We all believe as you do that certain things have to be done but it is our own difference in experiences that dictate what we think is best for all. Commercial fishery does contribute to the overall picture (netters not charter boats) in that the nets don't discriminate. It doesn't matter how many fish a boat full of line fishers catch the school would never be decimated. I am not arguing for or against. As an example many years ago we fished Fraser for a full week catching tailor, dart, bream and whiting (I counted 602 vehicles parked one morning at "our gutter"). Everybody was catching fish. The netters moved in chasing 'mullet' and took the lot. Not another fish was caught in that stretch of water for 3 days, and the netters tooks "tons of mullet' away. We all have a right to use our waterways for recreation or making a living though.
The conservation approach however is much broader than just rezoning a specified area for ever more. I believe the Brisbane river has seen a surgeance in fish stocks due to no more dredging and improved water quality. I also believe there is more pressure on fishing nowadays as opposed to even 5 years ago. Reducing the number of professionals will help but is not the answer. Look at the mangrove system around Brissie and how much it has changed in the last 30 years. Look at the amount of seen/unseen pollution that has been dumped in our waterways over time. Look at Oxley creek 10 years ago???? compared to now. Limiting us to fishing areas or away from zones is one way, but lets also look at the other alternatives. The EPA should be addressing these issues as well but I believe it is easier politically to just zone everything off.
Improve the water quality via reducing pollution. Increasing the natural buffer zones of mangroves that also promote marine life and natures own way of filtration. Look at the ramifications from dredging that are still being carried out today in some parts of our bay.
Some places that have been zoned will not improve if we continue to pollute them as we do. Sad fact I know but a reality. That in turn will only be helped if we keep zoning more areas and this is not the answer.
This requires a large committment from a number of government and local user groups with full cooperation. We do not want to see catch and release only. We all want the choice to keep a feed if we want. We all want to see out grandkids catch a fish too. Putting all our collective eggs into the one basket (zoning)is not the way to go......we must look at the picture as a whole and remove ourselves from the blame game and jump in, collectively take responsibility and get it done.
I also believe that nearly 100% of ausfishers think the same and do their bit. It is the once or twice a year mum and dad fishers with little Johnny and Mary and the ethnic groups that have to catch up on everything as well.

Cheers

Shane

[coucho]

Bloody well said Shane excellent post.

[BigE]

what if the size limit was increased on all fish by a big margin say 10 or 15 cm and bag limits taken away. any support for that ? an increase of that size would give several breeding cycles so sustainability wont be an issue. and fisherman could take more of the spieces that running hot at the time.
It will be interesting to see who is concerned about sustainability and who just wants to control what others catch.

BigE

[PinHead]

can still catch quality and quantity of bream same as I did 35 years ago.

[coucho]

I think that Idea has some merit for some speicies BigE others though no. Take the humble flat head the females grow much larger then the males and don't reach breeding age until well above the legal length so by lifting the size limit you specifically target the female fish of breeding age.

[coucho]

I just re read that post and it sounds hipocritical but I support your idea on a species by species basis if there is a maximum bag limit for combined speices applied it could work on a lot of fish?

[CreelReaper]

Thanks coucho,
I would really like to think that a lot of us are the thinking persons fisherman (male and female) and not just the hairy armed neanderthals that some would like to paint us as.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/Neanderthal_2D.jpg/180px-Neanderthal_2D.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Neanderthal_2D.jpg);D :P ::)
It is up to all of us to ensure the environment does and is able to sustain a level of marine life to support all users.

Pinhead I agree with you, I was meaning more to the size of the fillet.....a 25cm bream doesn't give much but then again I am a greedy bugger for any fresh fish. ;)
Although I remember catching cricket scores of bream both in the brissie river and the surrounds of wynnum and manly when I was a kid. I haven't seen those scores for a while.

Shane

[tigermullet]

20 fish bag limit? I think someone is desperate need of a good snappering.;D

[FNQCairns]

With regard to numbers of fish after the MB green etc zones come in - they will work, there will be more fish to catch in 10 years than if they were not introduced.

The reason for this and the only reason will be the decrease in trawled areas, banning rec fisherman from fishing any areas that do not constitute a pink zone is dishonest - just corrupt plain and simple.

cheers fnq