E-Tec query [Archive] - Ausfish fishing Australia, Australian Angling Forums

Seahorse

05-04-2008, 08:14 PM

Iam not getting into any debate here, but whenever someone complains about the etec, there seems to be a common problem about getting something downloaded and then all ok.
I dont have an etec and i can tell u one thing that i would be pissed off if motor didnt preform on first outing and had to go backregardless of make.
Iam not rubbishing the etec, if u own an etec dont start jumping up and down.
BS, i thought this site was here to get all the info, not to say skip all the crap on this site about them.
Rob, if you want all the info then listen to the blokes on here.
Its not hard to work out the difference between, constructive comments and others.
Good luck.

Cheers
Greg

disorderly

05-04-2008, 08:27 PM

Iam not getting into any debate here, but whenever someone complains about the etec, there seems to be a common problem about getting something downloaded and then all ok.

Cheers
Greg

It's an interesting point you make, Greg.
I have watched a supposed technician stuff around with a laptop on an E-tec and he didn't seem able to answer many of my questions ..I got the impression that he was struggling with the technology.
So,while I realize that new downloads are made available as new technology is developed or refined, I wonder how much of these initial setup problems are caused by inexperienced technicians.http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/undecided.gif

Scott

Last Cast

06-04-2008, 12:15 PM

I have had a 75hp Etec for a year now & must admit i love this motor. That said she doesnt seem to like it around the 1800-1900 rpm range & "vibrates" a bit . I put this down to it being a 3 Cyl, the old evinrude 1979 model did much the same. I went ETec for weight reasons ( Small boat, weight was critical ) & 3 Year no Service, ( Will have it Checked yearly for peace of mind ) Found an honest salesman who told me that all Motors on the Market were great thanks to the level of competition out there. Ps Service cost was important because the Boat is a Luxury & the Banks are determined to take more of the hard earned at the moment :)

Seahorse

06-04-2008, 04:19 PM

I think i would have a service yearly as well. Just cant get my head around this no service for 3 years.
My 75hp merc doesnt vibrate at at 1800-1900 rpms.
Oh well,each to thier own.
If one motor was the best then we would all have one, regardless of the make.
Good luck.

Cheers
Greg

disorderly

06-04-2008, 04:32 PM

I think i would have a service yearly as well. Just cant get my head around this no service for 3 years.

Cheers
Greg

Why,Greg?.
What concerns you the most about this servicing schedule?
What are you anticipating may happen to the motor that wont be pre-empted by the computer?
Scott

Last Cast

06-04-2008, 04:51 PM

Greg, Scott more of a check than a service ( bought it to keep those costs down hopefully ) & its a good chance to get the guys to check over the boat etc also. Taking it in yearly so it should keep the Computer/Software up to date too. I am hoping that an update will eliminate the small vibration at those revs too. All i need now is a nice pinky off woody point or at least the direction :)

Outsider1

06-04-2008, 05:11 PM

Hi, went for a run in a boat powered by an E-tec 115 HP, engine hunted/surged at 2200 RPM with a steady throttle. Has any one had a similar experience with an E-tec. I'm interested to know as I'm considering buying one.

Thanks

Rob

Hi Rob,

I am wondering why they were running at those rpms? Were they trolling? Just an unusual place in the rev range to be sitting that's all, less than planing speed and more than you need for displacement travelling, a bit in the hole really.

Regarding the ongoing debate?? and comments we see in various threads here, some of my thoughts and observations;

I was reading Neil Dunstan's column in the latest issue of F & B and he spoke about a recent discussion with an outboard mechanic in his workshop. He noticed the Yammy 115 the mechanic was working on had FORD stamped on the block, seems it was a (proven) block from one of their Rally cars (good power to weight).

The mechanic also noted that many the E-Tecs were based on the old Evinrude motors and still used a lot of the original parts, the 75/90hp models were mentioned specifically.

The reason I mention these observations, is these facts seem to be overlooked in any comments about specific motors ie are they based on a proven bottom end etc etc. For example, it was mentioned in another thread recently that the tilt and trim for many Yammies and Evinrudes are the same and probably interchangeable. The Auto industry is no different, the basic block etc of your Ford or Holden motor can almost invariably trace its history back at least 25 to 30 years if not a lot more, and many parts are interchangeable.

That leads me to comments I see quite often questioning E-Tecs 3 year/300 hour service interval. Comparable service periods are available in Cars but no one seems to question them there?

My last car monitored all the serviceable components, oil condition, operating conditions etc etc and told me when a service was due, no 6 months, 12 months or so many kilometres. I used to travel more than 25,000kms pa and usually got more than 30,000kms between services, no problem. I reckon the motor was in pristine condition when I traded it in (160,000km). It was able to operate on these service cycles because of its sophisticated ECU and engine monitoring systems and the quality of (synthetic) oil, filters etc used.

My new car has similar monitoring and service cycles, and even the wife's Holden is now a 15,000kms or 12 months service cycle these days. Everyone wondered out loud when Hyundai introduced 5 year/130k warranties, now days it is common in the industry no one thinks twice about it.

I think the benefits of modern ECU/EMM systems are sorely under estimated. My question is not if the E-Tec service cycle is valid, time and the warranty will answer that, but I am pretty confident it will prove very sustainable (in normal use).

Rather, I would ask questions about when are other outboard makers going to;

- introduce longer service cycles for their motors. All they have to do is what BRP did with the E-Tec, beef up/improve key components, use top shelf oil, filters etc and use a sophisticated ECU/EMM, and back themselves; simple really.

- send their fat bottomed girls, the 4 strokes, on to The Biggest Loser and get down to the sort of weights that bring them in contention for repowering older hulls.

Cheers

Dave

Seahorse

06-04-2008, 06:23 PM

Scott, called me old fashioned.
Not up with all this new technology.
Computer at home gives me enough drama.
Dont want to rely on one 20ks out to sea.
Good luck to all the e-tec owners. hope u have many many hrs trouble free motoring.
I dont think iam alone. I will just stick to my 2 st merc and have it serviced each year.
I feel more comfortable.
Dave.
I dont mind being sent to biggest loser with my merc.

Cheers
Greg

disorderly

06-04-2008, 06:45 PM

I dont mind being sent to biggest loser with my merc.

Cheers
Greg

Think you missed the point ,mate.
That crack was aimed at the weight of the 4 strokes...it seems to be...particularly with older hulls that the extra 20-50 kg or whatever (of 4 strokes)can really have an adverse effect on boat performance in some cases..they are working on it though.
The older carby 2 stokes(like your'shttp://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/smiley.gif )are generally the lightest of all and really what most older hulls were rated on as that was all that was available years ago.

Scott

Titanic

06-04-2008, 07:51 PM

Might as well add to this thread as my problem with my 75 E-Tec is somewhat similar
I had some problems with getting the right prop setup but that is now sorted and today with better conditions I achieved at WOT 5000rpm and 30 knots.

However when I ran the boat a couple of weeks ago I noticed a slight miss at lower revs. This was the first time I had noticed the miss and it was the first time I had used the boat since the new prop was fitted and a sentec hour meter also fitted to the motor (wrapped around ignition lead). The boat had not been used in a few months so I took the following steps.
1. removed hour guage
2. drained fuel tank and put new fuel in.

Today the miss was still there.

It starts at just on 2000 rpm and leaves at 2700 to 2800rpm. The motor is fine outside of this range and if I just opened her up and quickly moved past that range you would not detect the miss was there.

I know these motors are completely controlled by on board computers and I am wondering if the change of props has affected the mapping of the motor and it need resetting again. The hour guage is an unknown and I have not been able to get any info on whether its pick up wire which is attached to a spark plug lead could have caused the problem (to me unlikely) I am a once a month boater and fuel has never been a problem .
Has anyone experienced this ?

disorderly

06-04-2008, 08:14 PM

Titanic..(terrible boat name BTWhttp://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/undecided.gif),

Definitely get it back to the dealer if there is a "miss"and make sure they deal with it.
I would certainly also be asking for them to change the prop so you are achieving at least 5200RPM at WOT...you will be doing the motor no favors at all by only achieving 5000RPM at wot...the objective should be to have the motor hitting WOT in the upper end of the rev range and clearly your setup is not achieving that.....it really needs looking at.
If the dealer doesn't take your concerns seriously either call BRP direct or try another dealer.

Scott

Spaniard_King

06-04-2008, 08:39 PM

Cheers

Dave

Dave, Its a wonderfull philosophy that one on ECU's and ECM's but really they still rely heavily on the accuracy and reliability of the sensors which are available to them. It is in this area which technology has advanced. An ECU is basically a desicion maker based on it's programmed parrameters.

What they don't do is tell you when something is wearing out ie cam chain, bearing or piston ring, however the ECU will be forced to make corrections for these and other inadequacies.

There is no substitue for regular servicing for prolonged engine life. Unfortunately for the second hand market this will be evident some time after the warranty period has expired as this period has been determined by the manufacturer to be the period of least cost for breakdown for them.

Warranty and service intervals are nuthing but marketing tools these days driven by sales. The true worthiness of a product should be determined by it's second hand value years after it's warranty has expired.

Just currious but I have herd of a red book guide for second hand outboards, has anyone ever seen one??

Outsider1

06-04-2008, 09:11 PM

Yes Garry, it is the development of the sensors and the advances in computing power that have enabled the ECUs to become so much more powerful. You would be much better qualified than I to elaborate on that, although cam belt/chains are not something the DI 2 strokes have to worry about.

I have more experience with ECU in cars rather than boats. You can get most car ECUs re-chipped quite easily. I had my last engine chipped, they simply reprogrammed it through the port. Tuned it to run on 98 Octane and gave it about 15% more power and torque. It ran so much more smoothly afterwards and fuel consumption dropped by about 10% as well. Was a great engine to start with, but after the re-chipping it was just amazing.

Have not bothered with my new car, it has already been warmed up considerably in the factory!!.

Both these cars have sensors and monitors for everything, the number of functions they monitor and can put up warning messages about are just amazing.

Only time will tell on the servicing issue and whether a 3 year service period is sustainable, but my experience with automobiles tells me that the old 6 months or 10,000kms is a thing of the past. In fact the older members here will remember the days when you had to service and tune engines every 5000 miles or 6 months, and many did it every 3,000 miles. Ah, the days of points and non synthetic oils!. I remember my dad bitching about those new fangled electronic ignitions and how they were no good!! (because he could no longer fiddle with the points etc), how wrong was he!!

Have not heard of a red book on Outboards?, would be interesting if they did do one.

Cheers

Dave

20vwestie

07-04-2008, 10:33 AM

Hi Dave,

The reason for running at 2200 rpm is that we had been out for a fish before going to work on the PM shift, and were riunning a tad late. To get to the ramp we had to travel through a zone with a speed limit and upped the rpm in an attempt to make up some time. It didn't work though as we were still late.

Cheers

Rob

Noelm

07-04-2008, 10:46 AM

might be talking miracles here, but at about those RPM, the Engine switches from "Homegenious to Stratified" fuel/air mix, and it can cause some sort of "uneveness" in operation, not really a miss as such, could this be what you are experiencing? a trip to the Dealer should reveal this if it is the case, and he/they know what is going on!

Outsider1

07-04-2008, 10:55 AM

Thanks Rob,

It does sound like a ECU throttle mapping issue. As Noelm says, an E-Tec technician should be able to confirm and fix it fairly easily.

Cheers

Dave

Titanic

07-04-2008, 07:39 PM

Thanks guys . I have got it booked in to a local dealer who although did not sell me the motor is more than happy to look into the problem for me. I did call the guy who fitted the motor who is not a dealer and he said it sounds like a TPS problem which he says he has heard has caused a miss or uneveness in running at those revs. He also said that at 20 hours the motor does a remap and this could also be related .
I will get back when i get it is sorted because it is good for all to know what problems can arise and what is done to fix them

Titanic

09-04-2008, 07:16 PM

Well. I had hoped there would be a happy ending but alas not.
The motor has dropped 10 psi in one cylinder which is causing the miss. The Technician has told me that the boat was setup to run xd 100 but the motor was filled at PD with XD 50 which has caused poor lubrication and damage to one of the cylinders. BRP I believe are coming to the party but whether they replace the powerhead or fix the faulty cylinder has not been decided yet until the tech pulls the motor down. The motor has done eleven hours I have done nothing wrong and I feel sick in the stomach.

disorderly

09-04-2008, 07:28 PM

Well doesn't that suck!!
What a stuff up as well as the inconvenience of it all.No wonder you feel crook.http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/sad.gif
Who fitted the motor, programmed it to run XD 100 and then filled it up with XD 50?

Scott

Titanic

09-04-2008, 07:47 PM

Jabba_

09-04-2008, 08:14 PM

FAAARRRRKK.......

That is disgusting on behalf of the original dealer.... Mate, that is a monumental screw up.... I don't know how I would react if my dealer did that to me.. I know for sure, I would not let them lay a spanner on my motor, ever again.... Thank god you have another dealer looking after it for you.....

Best off luck..

Last Cast

09-04-2008, 08:56 PM

Mate, what can i say, sorry to hear about that I would be shattered also, was it the same place I got mine from? Mines going in for a look at tha smalll vibration issue tommorow also & I hope for their sake I dont get a similar Report, Can you pm me the dealer you are going to now? Thanks mate & once again I wish you hadnt got the result you did.

ROUGHWATERS

09-04-2008, 11:52 PM

hEY CAN ANYONE PRIVATE MESSAGE ME AND TELL ME HOW I SEARCH FOR SALTWATER FISHING IN VICTORIA EASTERN COAST JUST AFTER SOMEWHERE TO TAKE THE BOAT OUT AND CATCH A FEW NICE FISH.
THANKS GENTS!!

bassfanatic5

10-04-2008, 02:11 AM

It's an interesting point you make, Greg.
I have watched a supposed technician stuff around with a laptop on an E-tec and he didn't seem able to answer many of my questions ..I got the impression that he was struggling with the technology.
So,while I realize that new downloads are made available as new technology is developed or refined, I wonder how much of these initial setup problems are caused by inexperienced technicians.http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/undecided.gif

Scott
Have to agree with this as i have known people to take their motors in to their dealers to have the mapping checked and have been told all is fine, only to find that the motor still runs rough at a given rev range. They have then taken it to another dealer and had the mapping checked and found that with the updated mapping the problem has been solved. With the correct mapping from the word go this problem should be avoidable.

FNQCairns

10-04-2008, 10:11 AM

Sucks big time, those engines must have quite tight parameters for a 10psi drop to announce it's self to the driver in any way, wonder if the other pots were also 10or so psi lower and this one yet 10 again:(.

Interested to hear the end result, BTW if you know did they mention any PSI numbers?

cheers fnq

Titanic

10-04-2008, 06:25 PM

I believe around 140 and yes I agree a drop in one of 10psi would seem unlikely to cause a problem but the miss was quite pronounced. I suppose being a three cylinder and highly tuned it would be more noticeable and at this stage the extent of the damage is not fully known.The Tech said that a drop of
10psi in a second hand motor would be considered acceptable but in a new motor it is considered US (Unservicable).

cormorant

10-04-2008, 07:12 PM

If it is BRP or dealer fault - New powerhead is only solution that should be offered or acceptable with warranty to start from day of delivery. A rebored block is not the same as it limits the opportunity to rebore it later if you have an issue outside warranty. This shouldn't be your problem unless they also offer you compensation for having a second hand rebored motor which is worth thousands less.

Guess it explains why there was only a WOT 5000.

Good to see a dealer mechanic doing a thorough job and not only finding it was low on compression but then discovering the XD50 oil issue.

I'm really interested in what sort of revs that motor was run at for the few hours it has run. The reason is that the motor increases the oil delivery in some parts of rev and load range so even with XD50 during the run in period and I though it would have been pretty safe.

Which pot lost compression ? Top?

If you are talking to the mechanic it would also be interesting to hear if the bore was scored and if there was any metal transfer on the piston skirt?

Hope they look after you properly

C

Spaniard_King

10-04-2008, 07:27 PM

Would also be interesting if anyone can inform all the Etec owners how they can tell which oil they are running..like idenifying qualities.. anyone wanna have a go??

disorderly

10-04-2008, 07:35 PM

At this stage I am letting BRP handle it. Their dealer has set it up and hopefully this is an isolated case . The dealer fixing it is a different one and has shown just as much dissapointment as I have . I was so happy with the motor but this has shattered my confidence . You buy brand new for trouble free boating and whatever choice they take to repair it my motor is not new anymore.

Yes ,mate I totally understand where you are coming from.
It's far from a new engine now and after your initial experience how much faith could you put in the next dealer making it right.
I would at minimum be looking at replacement of the powerhead...if it's damaged one cylinder, chances are others are also damaged.
Strangely enough,Garry(spaniard king)has predicted damage like this (though not due to human stupidityhttp://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/rolleyes.gif)...might be interesting to get his take on what action should be taken from a mechanics view.....
If it were me....I'd be so amazingly angry...that I really think I would be asking for a new motor...but then again I really don't care about making enemieshttp://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/wink.gifhttp://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/grin.gif..
Good luck...and I hope you are able to get out fishing sometime sooooon.

Scott

Spaniard_King

10-04-2008, 07:39 PM

Greg P

10-04-2008, 07:55 PM

Scott,

Pretty simple really, If BRP accept the claim he will get a new powerhead. If the dealer is found to be at fault the dealer will have to repair or replace the powerhead..depending on the dealer it could be messy. As another dealer is handling the case IMO he will get a new powerhead... most likely out of BRP's goodwill budget :)

Agree absolutely. You paid for a new engine, it has only done 11hrs?? so there is no way I would accept a hone/sleeve and see ya later option from BRP. BRP need to make a commercial warranty decision. Dont let up on them till you have it. Some of the ETEC guys here would have some good contact numbers in BRP for area managers or product support reps ? Ring them and also put it writing.

So I take it from this situation it is possible to program the ECM to run the synthetic oil from zero hour?? I thought it was supposed to do it automatically during the first 10 hrs or something?

A guy at my work has had a 90 for 3 yrs now and apart from the first 3 trips having to come back at reduced rpm due to some oil sensor problem it has been flawless. I am sure he had to take it back after 10 or 20 hrs to get them to change the ECM to run the 100?

Good luck mate - go hard on the issue not the person !

Cheers

Greg

Titanic

10-04-2008, 08:00 PM

I will obviously will get the full run down on what damage has been done when the motor is pulled down. The tech said that the motor had been set for reduced oil usage which is what it is set for using wd100 and I assume the amount of the wd50 oil being supplied in this setting is what caused the problem. The WD100 obviously is just that much better oil ( and it should be at $65 for a gallon) . I was told that if the setting on the motor had been for WD50 and he had in fact used wd100 oil there would have been no damage( only to my wallet for oil )). Having spoken to a few people I am sure BRP will do the right thing by me I just hope for others this is a one off mistake.
With the revs I have heard varying opinions . I had only just sorted out the prop to get what BRP said I should get and that is 5000rpm. The range specified is 4500-5500 but the motor produces its maximum power at 5000. It should be interesting to see when I am up and going again if the motor produces any more.

10-04-2008, 08:03 PM

I think I'll throw this out there..... 10psi compression difference will make next to zero difference in performance. Carb 2 stroke, DI 2 stroke or 4 stroke the net effect will be much the same. Next to ZERO....

It would be prudent to point out here that various brands in the higher hp bracket do run differing compression ratios on different cylinders. 200hp HPDI Yammy's for instance runs 4 pots at 6.5:1 and the bottom 2 at 6:1. This means that the compression readings of these engines will show the bottom 2 cylinders differing to the other 4. Not saying this is the case with the etecs, but just pointing out that they can be engineered to run with uneven compression.

I am happy to stand corrected but a 10psi decrease in a cylinder will not cause a MISSFIRE. It simply will not (if it did then every etec as it wears a bit will be effectively poor performing - highly unlikely) . The cylinder still has compression, fuel and air is still being mixed in the combustion chamber, the ignition system will ignite that fuel charge. A missfire can typically be attributed to the ignition system.

Spaniard_King

10-04-2008, 08:04 PM

Titanic or anyone with an Etec,

Does the delaer drain the XD50 out and refill with XD100 at the first service interval???.

can anyone explain what goes on to get from xd50 to xd 100

disorderly

10-04-2008, 08:10 PM

Scott,

Pretty simple really, IMO he will get a new powerhead... most likely out of BRP's goodwill budget :)

lol Garry...I think you are even more cynical then me... my main gripe is that perhaps BRP is not ensuring that Dealers and their staff are being adequately trained ...seriously such a problem as Titanic's just should not happen...I've had issues in the past because especially during school holidays and sometimes after school some of the local mechanics use 14-15 year old schoolboys to do menial jobs in their workshops ...including various jobs(such as oil changeshttp://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/rolleyes.gif..) on my car,mower and previous outboards,etc... one instance costed me well over a grand for a totally wrong and useless diagnosis...needless to say these days I am careful to determine who works on my motors.http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/wink.gif

Scott

Outsider1

10-04-2008, 08:10 PM

Mine was set up for XD100 from scratch, according to the Dealer anyway.

The oil tank was about half full when it was delivered. I bought a gallon and topped it up immediately.

My understanding is that the dealer sets the oil type up from scratch based on what the client requests and/or they recommend. They did confirm with me before delivery.

I will have to check, but I am reasonable sure the factory manual that comes with the motor says that you can run on the XD50 for a period without damage in an emergency.

Cheers

Dave

Titanic

10-04-2008, 08:17 PM

Titanic or anyone with an Etec,

Does the delaer drain the XD50 out and refill with XD100 at the first service interval???.

can anyone explain what goes on to get from xd50 to xd 100

No I think you can run either of the two oils but the motor has to be told what it is using . With WD100 it uses less oil because from what I understand the oil is designed that way. WD50 is cheaper and the computer has to use more of it . I think its a trade off cheaper oil use more , dearer oil use less. I do not know if there is a performance difference between the two oils .

disorderly

10-04-2008, 08:18 PM

Titanic or anyone with an Etec,

Does the delaer drain the XD50 out and refill with XD100 at the first service interval???.

can anyone explain what goes on to get from xd50 to xd 100

Not sure ,Garry.
but with my motor I believe it was initially filled and programmed to run XD 100.
First service interval is 3 years....

Spaniard_King

10-04-2008, 08:21 PM

my main gripe is that perhaps BRP is not ensuring that Dealers and their staff are being adequately trained workshops ..
Scott

Scott, every dealership is having staffing problems of some nature... a lot are drawn to the bigger $$ being offered in the mining industry. Dealerships basically don't pay enough to keep good mechanics.. if they do it's mainly 1 mechanic getting the good $$ and the rest get the crumbs.. hard to beleive with the labor costs they charge. Some don't send any mechanics to the OEM courses cause it's costing them $$::) or the delaer principle goes and he never ever gets to lolok at an engine.

Outsider1

10-04-2008, 08:24 PM

........I will have to check, but I am reasonable sure the factory manual that comes with the motor says that you can run on the XD50 for a period without damage in an emergency.

Cheers

Dave

From the Operator's Guide;

....."If Evinrude/Johnson XD100 is temporarily unavailable, a one-time-only use of an oil that meets NMMA TC-W3RL certification standards is allowed."

The bold was as per the manual.

You would also reasonably expect the EMM to signal some sort of problem before too much damage was done.?

Hope BRP are able to sort it out to your satisfaction Titanic.

Cheers

Dave

Titanic

10-04-2008, 08:30 PM

Not sure ,Garry.
but with my motor I believe it was initially filled and programmed to run XD 100.
First service interval is 3 years....

I think someone mentioned it earlier how would an Etec owner know what oil his motor is set up to use. I was told to use XD 100 and bought a container immediately . I did not even think why the oil in the motor was blue and the oil I was adding was brownish. I now know. You know and I will suggest this to BRP a simple sticker to be fitted to the motors oil container stating what oil the motor should use would be a good warning and maybe a final prompt to a technician who is setting the motor up .

Spaniard_King

10-04-2008, 08:35 PM

Titanic,

If you get to the bottom of the Issue, I would be writing a letter to the BRP territory rep asking what they have dont to ensure this does not happen again and also ask him for the warranty status of your engine(include your serial number). You will then have something in writing:) The dealer should be able to give you the reps delails

FNQCairns

10-04-2008, 08:43 PM

It was a while ago but I understand these engines are simply not in a traditional sense rebuildable, the closest a person can get is to buy a new block and fit whatever is still good and of coarse the new replacement bits. Oversize pots are a thing of the past with these.

cheers fnq

disorderly

10-04-2008, 08:43 PM

Scott, every dealership is having staffing problems of some nature... a lot are drawn to the bigger $$ being offered in the mining industry. Dealerships basically don't pay enough to keep good mechanics.. if they do it's mainly 1 mechanic getting the good $$ and the rest get the crumbs.. hard to beleive with the labor costs they charge. Some don't send any mechanics to the OEM courses cause it's costing them $$::) or the delaer principle goes and he never ever gets to lolok at an engine.

Yes,mate this situation is also quite apparent up here.
I guess one could go so far as to say that a potential downside to owning a new tech engine is that their is no real guarantee that there will be a trustable local technician available.

I think someone mentioned it earlier how would an Etec owner know what oil his motor is set up to use. I was told to use XD 100 and bought a container immediately . I did not even think why the oil in the motor was blue and the oil I was adding was brownish. I now know. You know and I will suggest this to BRP a simple sticker to be fitted to the motors oil container stating what oil the motor should use would be a good warning and maybe a final prompt to a technician who is setting the motor up .

very unfortunate situation,titanic.
I made sure the cowl came off and everything was explained before I towed my boat from the dealership...although on the question of pull starting it took a further 6 months until the head Tech reluctantly was able to show me how to do it and he confessed it was the first time he had actually done it...factory trained tech...yeah righthttp://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/rolleyes.gif.

Scott

Jabba_

10-04-2008, 08:58 PM

Titanic or anyone with an Etec,

Does the delaer drain the XD50 out and refill with XD100 at the first service interval???.

can anyone explain what goes on to get from xd50 to xd 100

Oil type
XD25 = red, in colour
XD50 = blue
XD100 = golden, like golden syrup...

When a motor is pre-deliverery checked, they are all set on TC-W3 from the factory. That is the ratio you use if your going to use either XD25 or XD50....

It is a no cost option to upgrade to the XD100 ratio apart from the extra cost off the oil, when you specify you want XD100 at time off pre-delivery.....
The ratio change can only be done with the E-tec software,, and it is easy to ID on there software which ratio it is set to. They is no other way to ID what ratio is set for the motor...

Once the ratio is set then the oil line are primed. Once again it is the software that controls the priming... So if you had XD50 in the oil tank and lines, and you want to change to XD100, you need to prime the lines with XD100 before it leave the shop......

Double oil period (AKA, run in time) = 10hrs at 2500rpm or more... any time spent under 2500rpm does not count in the DOP....

Double oil means just that.. Double the amount off oil pending on which oil ratio you EMM is set on... So XD100 setting will still use less oil at DOP then TC-W3 setting...

IE, XD50 @ DOP is 60/1 after DOP is 120/1.... XD100 @ DOP 120/1 after is 240/1...
Dont read these figure as the correct. There just for illustration...

I have tried to scan up my Monitor snap shot report, but my scanner started playing up. I got peed and broke it more. Now, I don't have a scanner... It's getting late now. But if you like I can take a pic tomorrow or Saturday and post them..... However that is also pending on how my 2 boys are feeling after I get a little cut....

mickc

10-04-2008, 09:07 PM

Outsider1

10-04-2008, 09:22 PM

My 90 has a tag near the cap on the oil bottle stating that the motor has been programed to use xd 100 oil. Allso on the dash is a sticker stating the same.
Leisure Marine apparently do things the right way.

Mick

Ditto here too (Wynnum Marine).

Dave

Titanic

10-04-2008, 09:30 PM

Oil type
XD25 = red, in colour
XD50 = blue
XD100 = golden, like golden syrup...

When a motor is pre-deliverery checked, they are all set on TC-W3 from the factory. That is the ratio you use if your going to use either XD25 or XD50....

.
So the tech would have had to change it from the factory setting( xd25 or xd50) to that of WD100 but then filled the oil tank with WD50 . So if the tech had left the factory setting he could have put either oil in (but preferably WD50). You know this can not be the only time this has happened , surely a flag on the setup program asking the tech to double check which oil is being used . The colours of the oil are so different how could anyone working on these motors not have known ?

Jabba_

10-04-2008, 09:43 PM

So the tech would have had to change it from the factory setting( xd25 or xd50) to that of WD100 but then filled the oil tank with WD50 . So if the tech had left the factory setting he could have put either oil in (but preferably WD50). You know this can not be the only time this has happened , surely a flag on the setup program asking the tech to double check which oil is being used . The colours of the oil are so different how could anyone working on these motors not have known ?

That is correct..

I have seen and watch the pre-delivery check done on setting up an E-tec.. I was also showen through the software.... IMO it is easy stuff to set up... And to add... The XD100 Ratio icon is big and red. And it say's on the Icon "XD100 Ratio" You have to be blind to miss it....

So if he pressed the icon and filled with XD50.. The Mech is a complete goose....

boney-leg

10-04-2008, 09:48 PM

Titanic

10-04-2008, 09:59 PM

That is correct..

So if he pressed the icon and filled with XD50.. The Mech is a complete goose....

Other adjectives come to mind but for the time Goose will suffice .

Thanks for the info Jabba . I still can not come to terms with a very expensive piece of technology being destroyed because of a careless error .At this time I am still in shock and I do hope I will receive some explanation as to how it happened . I was absolutely wrapped in the motor its ease of starting ,economy and performance but now even when its fixed its not going to be quite the same

cormorant

10-04-2008, 10:01 PM

So in reality with it in run in period for 10 out of the 11 hours it didn't matter what oil was in the can. So the damage was done in 1 hour when it ran the lower dose of lower quality XD50?? That can't really be the issue and I think the misfire ( injector issue possibly ) , spot cooling issue with a bad cast ?, ECU? sensor ? Wiring? has something to do with this motor having a problem. Pure oil issue doesn't quite make sense. Unless they can diagnose the complete cause I wouldn't want any part of it.

Undoubtably don't accept any part of this powerhead back. Ask for a fully dressed replacement.

As for ETECs not being rebuidable that is just scaremongering I feel. They still offer oversize pistons and rings so they must be doing sometthing with them and rebores of blocks?

Titanic

10-04-2008, 11:43 PM

The tech said the motor was only being given half the oil it should have been. So the WD100 setting was only delivering half the volume of the wd50 oil that had been put in oil tank.

The motor was not being fed the right mixture from day one so as soon as the tech mis-matched the oil to the correct setting the motor was being damaged .
If the tech had left the factory setting at wd50 and put either WD100 or WD50 it would not have done any harm. As soon as you set the motor up for WD100 you HAVE to use it. The motor was basically set up to fail and it did.

FNQCairns

11-04-2008, 08:16 AM

As for ETECs not being rebuidable that is just scaremongering I feel. They still offer oversize pistons and rings so they must be doing sometthing with them and rebores of blocks?

Thanks that's good if true, this is the 3rd time I have brought the idea up, earlier on they had no oversize pistons, with the special proprietary process they use on bore finishing according to their marketing I wonder who they have tooled up here in OZ that can do it?

Would you happen to have access the the first oversize piston part number for any of the E-tecs?

cheers fnq

Taroona

11-04-2008, 01:03 PM

Last Cast

11-04-2008, 01:38 PM

Well I've just checked my Oil resevoir & guess what no sticker !!! Also just an update, the small vibration issue at low revs that i had was from a water inlet seal installed incorrectly. This seal only opens at WOT to assist cooling the motor, cant remember if this valve was before or after the thermostat, but it meant that the motor never got to full operating temp & was actualy running cold, this also made it run rich. I also got a report from the mechanic of what the computer readout was rpm, running time, temps etc & can post them if anyone thinks it worth looking at :)
got to say this has been a very informative thread thanks to all who posted
ps havent sea trialed yet hopefully tues? will post if this did actually fix the vibation issue

Jabba_

11-04-2008, 02:28 PM

Post up your reports if you don't mind..

Last Cast

11-04-2008, 03:13 PM

http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=24742&stc=1&d=1207890673http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=24743&stc=1&d=1207890673

Titanic

11-04-2008, 08:14 PM

Nice to see that oil ratio is set to XD100 (I hope you oil is not blue in colour). Quite good the way the computer tells them what is wrong . So what is your theory on when this seal was fitted incorrectly ?

tin can marlin

11-04-2008, 10:30 PM

Contact mick at river city marine if you have issues with etecs he is great and has got good service. They have steve there and he is one of the best tool men in the country. Regards mark

Fish Guts

12-04-2008, 10:47 AM

are you getting paid for your plugs tin can ?

Titanic

12-04-2008, 12:10 PM

hhb470

12-04-2008, 12:15 PM

hi all.
same thing happened to me titanic.
2 years ago i brought a boat/90 e-tec privately that only had 6 hours use.
when i checked it out i noticed that the oil was blue but the engine manual said it was programmed for 100.
i took it to my local e-tec dealer who confirmed that wrong oil was supplied.
they flushed the oil and filled oil tank with 100 (gold colour).
the motor was completely checked over and everything was 100%.
i contacted brp who advised with only 6 hours use there would not be a problem.
motor has now done 100 hours and runs perfectly in every way.
only issue i have had is that i needed to replace tacho gauge TWICE (warranty) due to faulty warning lights.

when i contacted the original delivering dealer we did not want to know about it, said it was a simple mistake. i do not have to say that i will never go back there. dealer name best not said.

apart from that one hell of a great motor.
titanic, hope yours is fixed to your satisfaction.
the guys at brp a very good.
cheers,

disorderly

12-04-2008, 12:22 PM

only issue i have had is that i needed to replace tacho gauge TWICE (warranty) due to faulty warning lights.

Yes aren't they just a total piece of CRAP.
I need to replace mine again when I get around to it.I think this will be number 4.

hhb470

12-04-2008, 01:00 PM

hi disorderly,
what do you do, i have 1 year left with my warranty?
i have had 2 tachos replaced and i know guys who have not had a problem.
both my faulty gauges had different problems.
1) oil light came on dimmly when cold.
2) light warning sequence when starting stopped working.

hoping 3rd time lucky.
cheers,

Greg P

12-04-2008, 02:11 PM

boney-leg

12-04-2008, 04:18 PM

ok . Has anybody had any experience with this situation . A motor that is running rough or missing which has fouled plugs and a heavy carbon build up on the cylinder head. The reason for this is being given as the motor is only being run in the 2000 rpm range and needs a good hard run.

I do a bit of trolling and it gets a burst to and from the grounds I troll. Many hours trolling and short WOT runs. My plugs lasted 100hrs and this concerned me >:( Was told it could be because I wasn't running premium but have heard this is common for us that troll. A dealer in Townsville suggests regapping to extend plug life but my concern was the carbon build up. He assured me that the motors he works on always have the plugs looking like crap but no carbon builds up on the head. I tend not to believe this so I use engine tune to decarbon every 100hs. I'm also using 2+4 because I can't get premium so now that we are entering mackerel season I will find out whether this helps :-/

There was a thread about a software upgrade but the BRP tec didn't mention it when told of my concern.

Titanic

12-04-2008, 04:42 PM

A few things I have heard from a tech - not the one working on my motor

1. etecs can run a little rough at idle and remapping the cylinder coefficients can smooth it out but it returns to factory defaults very shortly after
2. etecs running at lows revs over a period of time can get a build up of carbon and it is good practice to decoke the motor with a product called power something every 6 months.
3. Misses are can be caused by ignition problems and not all of these problems can be detected by the Engine Report Program
4 The motor does go through a fuel-air mixture change at around 2200 revs which can cause some unevenness in operation but not a miss

Boney Leg's previous post confirms some of this

FNQCairns

12-04-2008, 04:42 PM

ok . Has anybody had any experience with this situation . A motor that is running rough or missing which has fouled plugs and a heavy carbon build up on the cylinder head. The reason for this is being given as the motor is only being run in the 2000 rpm range and needs a good hard run.

Not abnormal in the old tech 2 strokes, esp the premix ones but amounts to just nuisance, the efi or other engine mixed motors it can go either way but usually it will be a result of over\cooling at that rpm, still a short blat like doing a trolling U turn without the lures sinking is usually enough of a run to go again. IMO all things being equal and within spec there is never a need to do a WOT or high speed run anywhere unless testing for something.

It makes sense to believe the e-tech would/should handle these situations better than the above engines.

Can I ask why you ask?

Cheers fnq

Titanic

12-04-2008, 05:03 PM

FNQCairns

12-04-2008, 05:17 PM

Yes I would have thought a Hi-Tec E-Tec would be clever enough to provide the correct mixture at all throttle levels to stop a carbon build up and fowling of plugs but apparently that is supposedly not the case. If you use low revs a lot on you E-TEC you have to WOT on a regular basis to clean it out or go to the old process of de-coking. Now do you believe that ?

MMmmm...not ideal then, no engine likes to travel at wot, it's abuse relative to say an 80% throttle setting, 2 strokes don't like to rev high they like to rev easily.

Perhaps the manufacturers of this 2 stroke engine have finally decided to raise the bar in advice over coking due to the problems it is known to cause, I dunno, but a strange way to go about it.

Still your best defence against coking is to prop your engine to the top or even a little above what the manufacturers recommended range is.

cheers fnq

Spaniard_King

12-04-2008, 06:56 PM

Yes I would have thought a Hi-Tec E-Tec would be clever enough to provide the correct mixture at all throttle levels to stop a carbon build up and fowling of plugs but apparently that is supposedly not the case. If you use low revs a lot on you E-TEC you have to WOT on a regular basis to clean it out or go to the old process of de-coking. Now do you believe that ?

Guys, this situation is very similar to the ficht:-X Mind you it's exactly the same.

Becasue the engine has to change injection modes arpound the 1800-2200 rpm range it has a tendancy to build up carbon deposits on the plugs and the rings. The simple explanation was not enough cylinder temp to burn off the carbon hence a higher than average RPM run of at least 5 minutes durration ( I have tested this on the ficht's) rpm above 4000 was found to be sufficient.

Now I know some are going to say that things have changed and I will conceive they have.. but the theory of the fuel injection system still remain the same.. ie Homogenous and stratified combustion.

Titanic

12-04-2008, 09:14 PM

You know when I bought this motor i considered buying a 4 stroke but was steered away because I was told would not use the motor often enough . I was told if you buy a 4 stroke you will need to use it on a regular basis or I would have problems with sticking valves. I was told the e-tec is for you , you can go for three months without using it with no worries just prime the bulb and away she goes . What no one told me was I have to use it above 4000 rpm or I will carbon the motor up.

I am now throwing the problem I have with my motor directly back at BRP . Today I was told by a dealer that he did not know how to read the Engine report but he thinks the problem is being caused by carbon build up in the engine and fouling the plugs because it shows the motor is operated mainly in the ranges between 2000 and 3500. I am tired of people thinking ! I would just like meet someone who knows.
Tell me Spaniard King . I always run my motor at idle for ten minutes when flushing this obviously must build up some level of carbon that is obviously is burnt up at next use ,is this right ?

Spaniard_King

12-04-2008, 09:18 PM

Titanic,

I found the critical rpm for soot build up was around 1500-2200 rpm at Idle the engines did not have an issue with soot.

Last Cast

12-04-2008, 09:37 PM

Recommended Rev Range on the 75hp ETec is 4500-5500. If I look at my History Report (Posted here Fri) Max rev 5061 rpm Majority of my time spent @ 2500 RPM. I run unleaded petrol no additives. So what should I be doing? Re propping to get 5500 rpm, use premium petrol &/or a short burst every trip @ 4000+rpm without getting airborn!
Half the battle is probably getting the right mechanic :)

FNQ are you saying the Motor @ WOT should be at the top end of the Range? Sorry for a possible obvious question but 2 stroke or any outboard mechanics for that matter I know nothing about

Spaniard King do you think this problem is with all 2 strokes? Ie gumming up if not given a good rpm range?

Titanic what are your mechanics tips for keeping the Motor at best possible condition?

Last one I promise :) Does the Optimax have similar issues?

Feel free to say I'm a pain in the #$%& :) but you blokes have alot more Knowledge & best of all "free" :P

Titanic

12-04-2008, 11:22 PM

Titanic what are your mechanics tips for keeping the Motor at best possible condition?

If I asked him at the moment he would probably say take it to a Mercury dealer.

My motors History report would probably be very little different to yours. Mine only just achieved 5000 rpm for a very short time. Lets face it who runs their motors WOT all the time , I mean how many days do you get that have dead flat perfect seas . I have used my motor mostly at around 3500 and getting around 23 knots which is comfortable and quick enough. BRP told me that 5000 WOT was fine and if you have got that I would not worry . Maximum BRP is achieved at 5000 and yes you could put a smaller prop on get some more revs, reduce the overall speed and spend more money on fuel but what for.

I think the main problem is as you say finding a good mechanic. I am no longer taking the word of any dealer who thinks he knows whats wrong.

Pm for you last cast

boney-leg

13-04-2008, 11:45 AM

BRP told me that 5000 WOT was fine and if you have got that I would not worry

My 90 was set up to reach 5000 @ WOT and I know of at least 5 different etecs from different dealers that were set up the same.

Titanic

13-04-2008, 11:49 AM

Yep thats what BRP told me when I was propping the motor 5000rpm is what they want to achieve at WOT

boney-leg

13-04-2008, 12:23 PM

This is what BRP sent to me re: plugs:

Carbon is a direct result of spent combustion and is normal in any internal combustion flammable liquid powered engine in small doses ,however it can also be critical to the life span and longevity of the engine if there is to much to soon , a few things to look for would be

Poor quality fuel , octane and content – ULP or PULP ?
Over cooling creating a richer than standard duration cycle
Faulty injector spray pattern or potential seating issue on that cylinder
Weak spark – lower than normal KV output or faulty plug

Should the engine check out to be O.K. I would suggest using engine tuner to remove the excess carbon and carbon guard in the fuel tank for future use, in addition the iridium plugs QC10WEP should be installed [ standard for 08 E-TEC ] and deflector pin kit which will help and can be covered by warranty only if there is on-going runability issues but not as a direct result of excess carbon from poor fuel quality

Don't know what a deflector kit is - any takers??

Spaniard_King

13-04-2008, 12:33 PM

Spaniard King do you think this problem is with all 2 strokes? Ie gumming up if not given a good rpm range?

LC The issues I talked about were prevelent in the Ficht, but just reading boney legs last post it seems to have carried over:-X

As with any 2 stroke proping is critical so with an engine that has a carbon build up issue you would be best served to prop the boat to the top of the rpm range even going over the max rpm will not be tdetrimental as you would rarely be using that rpm anyway.

Proping the boat correctly ensures the engine is correctly loaded up through the whole rpm range not just the high end. I am sure you have all seen an hard working deisel on the roads.. same deal with the 2 stroke.

Deflector kit sounds like rubber peices that are used in the water jackets in and around the cylinders to direct the water flow.

Outsider1

13-04-2008, 12:43 PM

There is reference to a Fuel Deflecting Pin in the Evinrude Parts Catalogue?!'

http://shop2.evinrude.com/ext/index.aspx?s1=3d65a55f5c74e2a77b367e90c2beca61

Go to 2008 model and look under Cylinder Head and Thermostat. The part is not shown but is listed between part nos. 14 and 15.

This is the part description (cost is about $10 US);

Product Details: Part Number: 0352881 Description: PIN,FUEL DEFLECTOR Pack Qty: 1 Dimensions: 0.88 x 0.25 x 0.25 (in) Weight: 0.01 lbs Equivalent Parts: N/A

Dave

Titanic

13-04-2008, 12:49 PM

Thanks that is very good info . My E-Tec is a 2007 and I assume does not have the new plugs or the deflector/pin whatever it is kit. Fuel has always been ULP and at the most only been eight weeks old . I assume the two of the other three scenarios over cooling and weak spark would be picked up by the diagnostic computer. Poor spray pattern or cylinder seating I am not sure of how that would be checked . I have not seen the engine report on mine but I operate through varying rev ranges but like most only use wot in small bursts.

bluefin59

13-04-2008, 01:04 PM

If I asked him at the moment he would probably say take it to a Mercury dealer.

I think the main problem is as you say finding a good mechanic. I am no longer taking the word of any dealer who thinks he knows whats wrong.

Pm for you last cast

You really do have to laugh at you etec people ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ,i can troll all day with my crappy 2 stroke merc it self adjusts the 2 stroke so you dont get carbon probs ....matt::) ::) ::)

boney-leg

14-04-2008, 05:33 PM

Outsider1

14-04-2008, 06:17 PM

Since I've been using the 2+4 additive I haven't noticed the carbon so mine might be the fact that I don't/can't get PULP here on the island. After trolling I would get a black residue on the outside transom which doesn't appear now.

Any takers on what a deflector pin does?? I assume it deflects the fuel spray but how does that help with combustion?

Have a read of this thread, post No. 7 in particular;

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=175307

..........In the evolution process of the Ficht technology, the OMC engineers discovered they could minimize the build up of soot which occurred on some engines by adding a Â“deflector pinÂ” in the combustion chamber. This pin is placed between the fuel injector and the spark plug electrode and it helps to keep the spark plugs cleaner, longer and allows the engines to run better. "

Cheers

Dave

Titanic

14-04-2008, 08:02 PM

If I have learnt one lesson in this whole episode it is this.
It does not matter how much research you do on buying the right hull and motor if you do not research very carefully who is going to service and look after your motor and their level of experience you could have big problems.

My motor is still being attended to by the dealer but now under the close direction of BRP.
I do not wish to say too much but the removal of the head should not have occurred and looking at the oil lines which are tinged blue is not the way to assess which oil a motor has been filled with (it had the right oil). I apparently have run the motor in no different way to what is considered normal . I now feel after talking to BRP the build of carbon is not an issue with these motors and if it occurs it is usually motors that operate on low revs all the time. BRP. will sort this out with the change of plugs (my motor already had the pin deflectors) as mentioned by Boney Leg. My motor is having the new plugs, cylinder seals, along with a tps adjustment and the latest remap of the computer..

I am told this should sort the miss problem out and a water test should confirm this, hopefully in a couple of days . While I now feel a lot better that BRP is directly involved my boat will never be touched again by this dealer after this debacle.