Boating Safety rule changes coming

[seatime]

G'day,

It looks like some changes to boat licensing and safety gear regulations will be happening soon. MSQ has published the results of a discussion paper on Recreational boating safety, implementation to follow.

In brief:

1. Personal flotation devices
There was strong support to include the Gold Coast Seaway and the
Mooloolah River mouth in the list of designated bars for which the wearing of personal flotation
devices is compulsory for all persons in vessels under 4.8m in length.


2. Advanced licence for large vessels.


3. Safety equip for jet skiis.


4. Restrictions on children operating vessels with OB's less than 6hp.


http://www.msq.qld.gov.au/Home/About_us/Msq_headlines/Headlines_rec_discussion_paper
http://www.msq.qld.gov.au/resources/file/eb7aa00bb1caca0/Pdf_results.pdf


With the many changes coming in from MSQ, DPI&F and EPA perhaps education days would be appropriate to get the message out. Keeping up with all the changes is difficult especially for the 2-3 times a year boaters and fishers.


Maybe combined information days conducted by MSQ/DPI/EPA and held at VMR/AVCG bases around QLD would be a good idea.


cheers

[Marlin_Mike]

I have to agree with the proposed changes. Can only be a good thing



Mike

[Bros]

What a lot of garbage !

There were 1308 replies and some of those would have been from the same people interested in a couple of topics. I would be guess in there would be 100,000 boat owners in Queensland and submission from so small a number is meaningless.

As for it being well publicized again a load of garbage. The publicity for this should take 12 mths and people advised through their boat registration renewal.

This is in no way having a go at the posters just MSQ.

[OceanSpirit]

I don't think the recommendations would cause any major harm for anyone in the boating community here in Queensland, and could only benefit the safety of all.

The proposal for a more advanced License for boats larger than 15Mtrs, is, in my mind, quite a smart safety measure given the added risks associated with boats of this size. Nowadays, it isn't uncommon for many 25 - 40" boats to exceed 35+ knots, and there are a number of people buying their first boat in this size range with no prior experience.

I think a thorough induction course for those between 12 and 16 would be a great step for kids 'learning the ropes' on a 6HP although most I would imagine would have half an idea already. Perhaps some sort of subsidised 'Junior License' would be a good idea.

As mentioned above though, publicity needs to be extensive and clear so that everyone knows about what is going on!

[FNQCairns]

Nothing too drastic, not nice to see government yet again fueling business with another Licence though.

Devil will be in the detail as usual, used to drive the 6hp 12ft punt everywhere with mates camping etc in the Murrumbidgee R and lots of lakes also pretty much wherever i could get my father bothered to drop and pick us up if it were not a family camping trip anyway, this was from the age of 8, was driving the carribean 85hp onto the trailer at age 10. Shame they may be further dumbing down by regulation yet again what little adventure kids have left today best they stay home or play in the dirt at camp is the strong message here, know who our social villains actually are.

Thought the 4.8m and bars was a regulation in place must have been for kids only -didn't one die trapped a while ago? or was that an adult. When just kids it was a good regulation, there will be deaths as a direct result of this new law, rob Peter to pay Paul, just as many grave stones only the names on the stones will vary as the result. Not something the regulators will do after the fact is assume any responsibility for any individuals regulation driven death.

Anyway the big boat license will be good for keeping away the International travelers in big boats I can only assume with the great importance placed on VHF and international regs etc when it suits an ideology we would still hold ourself dear to those lofty ideals...possibly not.
Hope the license will be accredited throughout the globe:)

As a nation we actually NEED lifjackts to swim between the flags in this country wonder when that will happen...... still feeling like an easy mark.

cheers fnq

[PinHead]

I don't think the recommendations would cause any major harm for anyone in the boating community here in Queensland, and could only benefit the safety of all.

The proposal for a more advanced License for boats larger than 15Mtrs, is, in my mind, quite a smart safety measure given the added risks associated with boats of this size. Nowadays, it isn't uncommon for many 25 - 40" boats to exceed 35+ knots, and there are a number of people buying their first boat in this size range with no prior experience.

I think a thorough induction course for those between 12 and 16 would be a great step for kids 'learning the ropes' on a 6HP although most I would imagine would have half an idea already. Perhaps some sort of subsidised 'Junior License' would be a good idea.

As mentioned above though, publicity needs to be extensive and clear so that everyone knows about what is going on!

I am not sure what you are saying on that point????
15m is about 45' yet you mention 28 to 30'...at which point do you agree with an "advanced License".

Personally..you can do as much damage in a 16' boat at 35 knots as you can in a larger boat.

[datamile]

As an outsider, QLD does really feel over regulated for everything.

The worse thing I think is that most regulation aren't worth the paper they are written on. 2K tafe course for this, blue card for that, license for...

Boat license appears to teach very little practice knowledge, and feels more like teaching you enough law for it to be your fault if there is an issue.

Need more practice nav and getting your bearing at sea, some lauching/ramp practice, actually fall into the bay and see what its like to be MOB in open sea.
Perhaps not part of the license, but an advance course to get insurance discounts, and those who do want to learn more.


Private pilots license is based on shipping law but are so more complex.


40 hours total flight time which includes;
5 hours general flight time as Pilot In Command (PIC)
5 hours cross country flight time as PIC
2 hours Instrument Flight (IF)
Pass the written examinations set by our school
Pass the PPL written examination set by CASA
Hold or be qualified to hold a Flight Radio Telephone Operator Certificate
Been assessed as having achieved the required standard in all sequences; and
Be recommended by the Chief Flying Instructor for the PPL flight test.
Flying a plane takes 30 mins to learn, the other 39 hours is about what to do when things go wrong, reading the weather , nav.. where's the boat lic appears to cover the 30 mins to piloting a boat, and nothing on what to do when things go wrong.

[SatNav]

1. It would be interesting to know boaties view's on a possible navigation requirement that ALL vessels travelling at night be fitted with radar, regardless of size

[PinHead]

1. It would be interesting to know boaties view's on a possible navigation requirement that ALL vessels travelling at night be fitted with radar, regardless of size

my opinon..no way.

I could just see radar mounted on a 10' tinnie

Datamile..I am also interested re your comment about launching/retrieving...what does that have to do with driving a boat ???

[SatNav]

1. That's fine! but it could mean the 10' foot tinnie or any vessel without radar is restricted to daylight hours ONLY?

[Blackened]

G'day

How about a radar mounted on kayak? I know it's rediculous

I do agree with advanced licenses for boats over a certain length/weight combination, much like bus/truck/road train licenses on land.

At what size? I do not know

Dave

[PinHead]

1. That's fine! but it could mean the 10' foot tinnie or any vessel without radar is restricted to daylight hours ONLY?

as I said,,my opinion..no way..how about we don't allow any boats on the water without a GPS also..or a radio

[Chris Ryan]

with friggen green zones Greg, we will all need GPS and other advanced electronics anyway.

[SatNav]

"as I said,,my opinion..no way..how about we don't allow any boats on the water without a GPS also..or a radio"

1. I wouldn't exclude those items either and maybe there are a few others that could be included BUT the query was regarding radar and this is something that could "seriously" prevent smaller vessels from going to sea outside of daylight hours

[PinHead]

so you are trying tell me that some bloke with his tinnie cannot travel in Pumicestone Passage or down the Pin at night without radar??? as I have said twice..no way. More ridiculous regulation.

[PinHead]

with friggen green zones Greg, we will all need GPS and other advanced electronics anyway.


I know Chris..I will need mine to ensure I am inside the bloody thing before I start casting.

[datamile]

Rader reflectors etc don't make a lot of difference when it comes to large ships mowing down little boat, and for small boats radar does not a lot of difference if you travelling at speed. Like most things you are putting more crumble zones on cars instead of teaching people to drive better, and I think the same can be applied to boats.

People need to be taught common sense. To read the weather and not hope it will pass over, to ensure their engine is in good condition and know some basic things to check if it fails, how to make a call to the vmr, how to estimate your position, the effects of tide/wind, how to cope in bad conditions etc.

Newer technology such as GPS/personal EPIRBs will save people and gve them a conform zone, but will people come to rely on them too much.

[Simmo2]

For once...I can see and possibly agree with Satnav...

We had a post here not long ago re a kayak, out at sea, without lights. The OP of the thread indicated that he did not see the person on the kayak, but narrowly avoided him/her much to the kayak skippers annoyance and 504 or suicidal tendancies.

Another post I recall was a tinny, occupiers flicking matches to warn an oncoming flybridge or similar of its presence in the water.....
The skipper of the flybridge was on the back deck having a beer..... (truth unknown...insert disclaimer here...)


Existing 'laws' say that you must have certain safety gear in general.

But what may come into fruition is that you cant travel at night or in inclement weather without further electronics/gear/instruction.

The Aviation context is apt. It is relatively easy for a PPL to get VFR, but then there's IFR and all sorts of further study to do. For the non pilots, this means that to take the plane out in fair weather etc is part of your basic licence, but to go at night or in bad weather requires an endorsement of IFR. That is having the correct equipment and knowing how to use it.

[CreelReaper]

Hey all,
Once again an enthralling post with many and varied responses. I think that in today's society however the emphasis is on 'duty of care' rather than education. The suggestion on training launch/retrieve is a good one....if you can't do either you shouldn't be on the water. It's like reversing a car.....there are many that can't.
Unfortunately there is a fair percentage of boat owners (regardless of size) that do not meet the muster. Do we need a "learners" type scenario as with cars????
The bigger the boat the more precise the operation needs be.....its obvious that a larger vessel weighs more and is harder to control when on water and will do a hell of a lot more damage. (Not having a go at you Pinhead). I was anchored up off Coochie a number of years ago when a 40 footer came bearing down on me at high speed, came to a screaming halt and huge bow wash, close enough for me to touch the side of his boat and he enquires as to "What Island is that?????"" He didn't have a clue. Another time I was at Wello and 2 blokes in a 16 footer were arguing as to which ramp they were at.....one thought he was at Manly.
It all comes down to common sense. When the situation isn't right (weather wise or nighttime)we all have to slow down and be extra vigilant.

Cheers

Shane

[arvor]

As an outsider, QLD does really feel over regulated for everything.

The worse thing I think is that most regulation aren't worth the paper they are written on. 2K tafe course for this, blue card for that, license for...

Boat license appears to teach very little practice knowledge, and feels more like teaching you enough law for it to be your fault if there is an issue.

Need more practice nav and getting your bearing at sea, some lauching/ramp practice, actually fall into the bay and see what its like to be MOB in open sea.
Perhaps not part of the license, but an advance course to get insurance discounts, and those who do want to learn more.


Private pilots license is based on shipping law but are so more complex.
40 hours total flight time which includes;
5 hours general flight time as Pilot In Command (PIC)
5 hours cross country flight time as PIC
2 hours Instrument Flight (IF)
Pass the written examinations set by our school
Pass the PPL written examination set by CASA
Hold or be qualified to hold a Flight Radio Telephone Operator Certificate
Been assessed as having achieved the required standard in all sequences; and
Be recommended by the Chief Flying Instructor for the PPL flight test.Flying a plane takes 30 mins to learn, the other 39 hours is about what to do when things go wrong, reading the weather , nav.. where's the boat lic appears to cover the 30 mins to piloting a boat, and nothing on what to do when things go wrong.
well from what i have seen for the last few weeks at the mouth of the mooloolah.i have been shocked.from a 40foot cat go straight at and just miss the cardinal mark dead ahead (with 3 young kids standing on the deck without any pfds on)to the young jetskier tied to the starboard bouy while his mates jump the swell between the port and starboard marks.while vessels are trying to exit and enter the river.and to all the dozens if not hundreds of vessels of all sizes getting to the mark and just get to sea the quickest way possible.and looking from the shore this sunday you could see many just follow the first out.so anything to make the standard of boating better will be a benifit for all

[tigermullet]

Boats to have radar to operate at night? Why?? Do you mean that operating around the Pin we would have to put radar on the tinny or the slow 30 footer to indulge in a little night fishing. Where will it stop? Perhaps GPS as well, even though the most equipment ever needed would be a spot light and then only for intermittent use. You can see everything for Heaven's sake!

The idea is totally of the rails. What have you been smoking?

To draw a parallel with night operation of a slow boat with Night VMC or IFR ratings is just a bit over the top. No, it's not - it's absolutely nuts.

You've been shopping in Mullumbimby haven't you, you naughty person?

[Bros]

My bitch is that they will say we have gone through the consultation process and got replies from boat owners so now we can push our changes through.

Everywhere you turn now there are more rules and regulations with more people employed making them and more to police them. That is right across the board.

We really enjoyed ourselves as kids fishing. In school holidays we would be dropped off at the boat ramp (oops there was no boat ramp then in National Park in Townsville just a bit of sloping dirt) in the morning and picked up in the afternoon. We had a 12 ft ply boat and a 6hp Seagull and we really enjoyed our holidays. We only had one fishing inspector to worry about and he was pretty forgiving to us kids.

We would have done this between the ages of 12 and 16. We don't need that regulated away as kids are wrapped up too much in cotton wool now.

[PinHead]

Hey all,
Once again an enthralling post with many and varied responses. I think that in today's society however the emphasis is on 'duty of care' rather than education. The suggestion on training launch/retrieve is a good one....if you can't do either you shouldn't be on the water. It's like reversing a car.....there are many that can't.
Unfortunately there is a fair percentage of boat owners (regardless of size) that do not meet the muster. Do we need a "learners" type scenario as with cars????
The bigger the boat the more precise the operation needs be.....its obvious that a larger vessel weighs more and is harder to control when on water and will do a hell of a lot more damage. (Not having a go at you Pinhead). I was anchored up off Coochie a number of years ago when a 40 footer came bearing down on me at high speed, came to a screaming halt and huge bow wash, close enough for me to touch the side of his boat and he enquires as to "What Island is that?????"" He didn't have a clue. Another time I was at Wello and 2 blokes in a 16 footer were arguing as to which ramp they were at.....one thought he was at Manly.
It all comes down to common sense. When the situation isn't right (weather wise or nighttime)we all have to slow down and be extra vigilant.

Cheers

Shane

what if you are getting a license and own a 30' houseboat or bay cruiser or something similar..why would you bother wasting time on launch/retrieve items in a license test?

[seatime]

The discussion paper formed only part of the consultative process. To me the changes appear part pro-active, part re-active.

"The information gathered from the survey will help Maritime Safety Queensland formalise future
policy and legislation proposals for further specific consultation. It is important to note that the
draft policy positions will be formulated with regard to marine incident statistics, marine industry
feedback, feedback from compliance agencies as well as the survey results".

There will only be more boats on the water in the future as those non-Queenslanders realise what a cruddy place they live in, and relocate to our part of paradise.
I hear plenty of feedback that there needs to be a larger practical component to licensing. How much more practical? where is the line drawn, 2 hours, 2 days, 2 weeks?
Experiencing the varied wind/tide, low light, traffic density, weather changes, etc, scenarios that can be encountered when boating, is nigh on impossible in an 8 hour boat licence course. Not to mention the different handling characteristics of the boats that will be used by participants.
Was anyone taught how to reverse a box trailer or caravan when obtain their motor vehicle licence? There are skills and knowledge that need to be learned outside of the course structure, like homework.
Unfortunately "common sense" can't be taught, what may be common to one person isn't necessarily common to another.

This should attract some opinions - what about re-certifying a boat licence every X years, sit a refresher course or similar?
The fact is, nothing is going to get easier or simpler about boating in Qld with the population boom we are expecting. Sadly the old days are over, and more restrictions are on the horizon.

[CreelReaper]

Too true Pinhead......maybe we could change it to birthing/rebirthing from docks/pontoons....All I meant to say is that there are a lage proportion of boat owners that can't operate their vessell (big or small) under normal operations. Sometimes that little bit of extra ability in knowing you and your crafts ability in a tight squeeze might just be the difference between a good day and disaster. Take the last example I explained with the 40 footer.....I was anchored up in around 3m of water in a 12 ft tinnie. The bow wave this boat produced nearly capsized me when he came to a screaming halt. If he had any brains he wouldn't have done it and would have approached me at a more reasonable speed and distance. Apart from the fact he was absolutely flying in unknown territory....he didn't even know the islands name. Do I need to say more???? Unfortunately we have to cater for all tastes/experience. It has to be as idiot proof as it can be. Does it mean us more experienced boaties have to suffer???? Probably

[onerabbit]

Could you imagine if every boat on the water had radar???
No-one would ever have a "secret spot" again.

Muzz

[Alex9797]

I for one would be happy to see a range of licenses for a range of craft. I have owned sailing boats, trailer boats ( large and small) and currently own a 36 foot bay cruiser and would be happy to sit for a larger vessel upgrade to my license if required.

As an ex rag and stick man I believe that i have developed a good respect for smaller vessels and the damage that can be done by the wash from larger ( and smaller ) boats when operating at close quarters. A bit like ex bikers having IMHO better road sense.

How can it possibly be OK to obtain a boat license in a 10ft tinny in a dam at Gatton and then get behind the wheel of a 35 ft Regal capable of doing 40knots.


The answer in my opinion is to keep it simple and affordable. If you want to upgrade your skills and therefore the privilege of driving a larger and faster boat it should be similar to getting a motorcycle license added to your existing car license. You complete a short course and a test or demonstrate that you have the skills required already.

The waterways are far more congested now than ever before and where once large boats meant slow boats is now not the case. I have rarely spent a day on the water and not see someone doing something dangerous, stupid or just disrespectful of others.

Of course none of this will make any difference unless the regs are enforced so that people will take them seriously

BTW I'm not a copper just pissed off from what I see week in week out.


cheers


Alex

[PinHead]

Too true Pinhead......maybe we could change it to birthing/rebirthing from docks/pontoons....All I meant to say is that there are a lage proportion of boat owners that can't operate their vessell (big or small) under normal operations. Sometimes that little bit of extra ability in knowing you and your crafts ability in a tight squeeze might just be the difference between a good day and disaster. Take the last example I explained with the 40 footer.....I was anchored up in around 3m of water in a 12 ft tinnie. The bow wave this boat produced nearly capsized me when he came to a screaming halt. If he had any brains he wouldn't have done it and would have approached me at a more reasonable speed and distance. Apart from the fact he was absolutely flying in unknown territory....he didn't even know the islands name. Do I need to say more???? Unfortunately we have to cater for all tastes/experience. It has to be as idiot proof as it can be. Does it mean us more experienced boaties have to suffer???? Probably

try doing that one with a 30 knot wind across the boat..that is a hoot..luckily I did not have a boat next to me at the time...but I did find out that you can fit a 30' boat across 2 berths without hitting at either end.

[Alex9797]

G,day Greg,


at least you had two engines. Why do you think I ended up at manly instead of HZ. So you wouldn't spend all of your time piss@#$ yourself watching me destroying half the marina trying to park the new( old ) boat.Why didn't I listen at the time?


cheers


Alex

[CreelReaper]

Hey Pinhead....that would have been a hoot to watch but I bet your heart was in your mouth for a while. I reckon we could all boast of an episode like that in one way or another.
Imagine that same houseboat 500m from the Maroochy river mouth with a boatload of japanese tourists, wind blowing straight up the river and an outgoing tide. Happened quite a few years ago and I reckon the only thing that stopped them going out the bar was it was only a small high tide.

[Bros]

A mate an I used to own a 11m steel displacement hull boat that weighed 11 ton and we a had a dinghy with a 15 hp outboard.

We always thought it funny that we had to have a license to drive the tinnie but not one for an 11 ton boat.

[tidemaster]

Hmmmmmm License for larger vessels sounds great in practice, but just how does it work in practice. Many years ago I remember getting a coxswains ticket, then a grade 4 ticket. The actual licensing process was fairly involved, but did it mean you could handle the boat??????? The licensing authority would never know. You log the required sea time then pass the test, no measure of competency in a range of conditions.

I recall a deckie of mine that had his ticket and used to like to drive a bit, to enter skippering hours in his record of service, park a 10 metre cat ON TOP of the marina berth because he got flustered when trying to berth in a moderate cross wind situation.

Licensing does not really indicate competency!!!!!! Having said all this, I do feel that there needs to be some distinction between a licence to drive large boats from tinnies. IMHO, 15mtrs should become 8mtrs for the advanced license. I know that my 2.5 tonne, 7 mtr single engine boat is harder to handle than a 15 mtr twin engined boat with bow thrusters.

[STUIE63]

What a load of crap the consultation process was . I contacted qld transport about licences for children on the 19/06/07 then then sent back an email with a reply that sounded like they were really looking into it then a few months later they sent me a questionaire which had nothing to do with my original question . and now we are going to have a new set of rules after a supposed public consultation . what a joke
Stuie

[Bros]

What a load of crap the consultation process was . supposed public consultation
Stuie

Were you consulted?

I was insulted

[PinHead]

Hmmmmmm License for larger vessels sounds great in practice, but just how does it work in practice. Many years ago I remember getting a coxswains ticket, then a grade 4 ticket. The actual licensing process was fairly involved, but did it mean you could handle the boat??????? The licensing authority would never know. You log the required sea time then pass the test, no measure of competency in a range of conditions.

I recall a deckie of mine that had his ticket and used to like to drive a bit, to enter skippering hours in his record of service, park a 10 metre cat ON TOP of the marina berth because he got flustered when trying to berth in a moderate cross wind situation.

Licensing does not really indicate competency!!!!!! Having said all this, I do feel that there needs to be some distinction between a licence to drive large boats from tinnies. IMHO, 15mtrs should become 8mtrs for the advanced license. I know that my 2.5 tonne, 7 mtr single engine boat is harder to handle than a 15 mtr twin engined boat with bow thrusters.

and shaft drive boats are easier to handle than stern drives and IPS is a walk in the park.

[datamile]

I used to work on 12m fibreglass trawlers in the UK, and a few small boats experience the stopping distance of it when they were pissing about in the habour... i.e. 50m if you're doing 5knts even with reverse on. But agree with knowledge required was different to having a tinny. I'd pitch for more common sense/practical license, and credits for attending/demonstrating knowledge courses

[BrewGuru]

I am not sure what you are saying on that point????
15m is about 45' yet you mention 28 to 30'...at which point do you agree with an "advanced License".

Personally..you can do as much damage in a 16' boat at 35 knots as you can in a larger boat.

The only ones it will really effect is the old guys who have the old timber boats, like mine, it was only a couple of years ago, they didn't need a license, beacause ithe boat didn't do ten knots, but the tender hanging of the back did, so it was a significant change when they changed the licensing to: you must have a licence if the vessel any vessel is powered by greater tha a 6hp.

The old timber tubs is a whole different style of boating especially if they are a single screw, you can do a lot of damage @ 8 knots weighing in at 23 tonne (Waiben is that specification), I think it is an important change.