Caltex says "Prepare for $3.30 a litre"

[SgBFish]

Prepare for $3.30 a litre
The country's biggest petrol company believes Australians should think themselves lucky they aren't already paying more to fill up their tank.
The cover of the latest issue of Caltex's magazine The Star features an article predicting some time in the next decade when prices are 334.9c per litre.

The publication, sent to employees, franchisees and resellers, includes a foreword from managing director Des King saying prices in other countries were already more than $2 a litre and consumers have had to adjust to these.

"We understand consumers may be upset about the prospect of long-term higher prices in Australia," Mr King writes. "However, it is a prospect we all have to face."
http://www.news.com.au/business/money/story/0,25479,23361203-14327,00.html

:-/

[PinHead]

I know this comment will annoy a few people but who really cares..I have given up being concerned over things like fuel prices..nothing I can do about it so why bother...just go along for the ride.

[fivefishes]

Hey pinhead,

Good point, i don't bitch and carry on at the pump or anything, you're right nothing you can do about it, i just don't like getting a pile of crap lies stuffed down my throat, i think i'd rather be told "hey your petrol is dearer so we make more money, live with it" . Instead we are treated like mushrooms and told to like it. Hey i got no problem paying the coin and if it goes to $3.30/L i ain't getting rid of my big thirsty 4WD or my boat, i'll just work harder or smarter and afford it at whatever price, price isn't the point hence my mushroom comment.

Matt

[Outsider1]

Europe have been paying that sort of money for fuel for years and they are surviving, thriving actually!.

I am not supporting fuel going to that level, I will be pi** off like everyone else, but when you look at it realistically we have had cheap fuel for years and it is still relatively cheap even at current levels. At some stage we will have to pay the piper so to speak.

In terms of total ownership of a car or boat, fuel costs are right down the list quite frankly in terms of percentage of overall costs. Work out what it costs you each year to simply own your car or boat, ie depreciation, registration and insurance, and either interest costs on borrowed money or (lost) opportunity costs if you paid cash, and they will be many times what most people spend on fuel in a year.

Lets hope it won't get there for a long time, but lets also accept it is eventually inevitable, and we will survive.

Cheers

Dave

[Scott nthQld]

i agree, Pinhead, the more we whinge and the more 'transparent' the fuel companies pricing structure is won't change a thing. In Australia everyone has the right to charge what they want, whenever they want, the only thing that keeps prices down is competition.

People can be pissed as much as they want (including myself) but there's not a thing we can do about it. Whinging to the clerk at the servo won't do anything except piss them off, don't forget, they have to pay roughly the same price anyway (they might get a staff discount of 4c a litre but thats about it).

[manchild]

I dont even look at prices anymore .Just pull in, fill her up to full and go.Same people that whinge happily spend $50 on a slab of beer .
George

[Hamish73]

fuel is made from crude oil, as the oil runs out, the price will go up. It's a pretty simple case of supply and demand I think.
ALso, due to the known future shortages, comanied are developing renewable fuels. I'm no expert, but you would have to imagine that it would cost an absolute shitload to develop and tool up for a new type of fuel. Lets just hope that some smart arse engineer designs a 100% renewable fuel, or seriously improves electric technology

[Roughasguts]

Petrol isn't exspensive, you seen the price of bottled water.
Now that's bloody rediculous, and people buy it without hesitation.

[Wayne_Red]

I feel the same, if it goes to 10 bucks a litre and I need it I'll still buy it. But if the greenies have their way they will ban all fossile fuel and we will have to row our boat out to the marine park.
Wayne

[BrewGuru]

Beer 90 cents a litre at the bar, how do they make it so cheap and you dont have to fill it yourself or return the empties.

[Fatenhappy]

Bloody B--- Sh--!

So ... try this on for size.

1. I was in Oman in the Middle East 1998 through to 2004.

During that time the price at the bouser was 112 baisas per litre ... yep the whole time and that equates to about 44 to 45 cents per litre AUD..

An ozzie mate of mine came back for a visit in 2005 when it first went to $1.30 p/ltr or so here and was bitterly bitching about the price.

I said to him at the time (or words to the effect) ... "hey Ken the price must have gone up now being the price it is in Australia! ... so what is it over there?"

Now bare in mind we hadn't spoken prior about the current price .... after a bit of pondering his response ... "oh about 44 - 45 cents a litre I'd say!!!

My point ... in the Middle East the country of ownership has to maintain a 51% ownership of everything ...

Now all you business types are going to start screaming about free rights, gay liberated whales and all the rest ... but my point is 6 years and absolute stability in price day after day after day.

Everyone made money, everyone was happy.

So how is it on a Wednesday morning (every week) in Brisbane the price regulaly jumps by at least 20 cents over night ... bloody bull sh_ _ ... just greedy bast_ _ _ _

Just a softning up exercise for greed .... wanke _ _

Most of all they realy believe that they expect us to believe all their crap!

2. So why has diesel gone so stupid over the past 10 to 15 years when its cheaper than unleaded to produce .... don't forget less refining so it comes out of "Cracker " first .... hey hey .... more rocket science .... more people buying diesel cars so once again lets get real gready and by the way ... WE EXPECT EVERYONE TO BELIEVE THE PR AND BE JUST THAT STUPID ... Yea Right !!!! >:( >:( >:( >:(

[backlash08]

the ROI & profits of oil companies is very low compared to other industies - especially when one considers the capital required to run refineries and retail outlets, not to mention emession targets R&D - the cost of fuels is primarly influenced by the barrel price ($108 today) and somewhat by taxes, state and federal. Screaming about profitering by the oil companies is little more than political pointscoring (IMO) If oil companies enjoyed the same ROI as other leading industries we would already be paying ~$3 p/l. What we pay will be heavily influenced by crude price, emession leglisation and taxes.

[Fatenhappy]

IMO .... Funny part is Clee, I think you actually believe that and you expect everyone else to as well !!

And no, I don't have anything to do with any political party .... so what was that all about ?

I do think that the Scandanavian countries are on the right tact and the sooner we look to alternate fuels sources the better even if only for stability in price!

Better still ... lets all just become yachties and troll all day ;D

[backlash08]

sorry to offend, potical comments were not directed at you at all - they were made regarding the regular political comments in the media - the ACCC has tried many times to support public views about inappropriate price points from all major oil companies and have repeadly returned a zero finding - that in itself says someting. You are right though, i do believe the comments I wrote, if others do or not is totally up to them - i simply base my views on the facts that exist, not the emotion of high fuel prices, if you look at the barrel price trends and publically available profit reports from any of the refiners it supports my view but as you say - thats what I beleive

[Local_Guy]

liquid remedy i was gonna say the same thing about the price in the middle east being so cheap, but you've really hit the nail on the head there.

Have you noticed...... as fuel goes up so has the price of LPG.. but why. it use to be 40c/L, now it's 79c/L... but they don't have to refine this like they do petrol, and don't they have gas stations in Australia???...

Also we are paying GST on fuel. at the current rate of $1.38. we are paying 14c / L GST. so fuel could actually be $1.24 /L if the g'ment wanted it to.

With all the lobbying going on about fuel prices nothing has been done, it just keeps going up and up and up.

I remember living in brisbane and at 6am fuel was 10c / L more expensive than at 11am on the southside of town... I drove to the north side where it had done the opposite.. started off cheap and jumped 10c / L. I mean comon.. The same fuel that was in their tank for say $1.20c/L is now $1.30/L how does that work.

my rant

[FNQCairns]

Yeah there is 1.5c per L for the fuel companys, 3c per L for the servo and a whopping amount for the government. I know who is to blame for the current price.

Also until world demand drops to a level the oil cartels start seeing less gross income from even their manipulated for market price production quantities the price will continue to climb like the sky is the only limit.

Europe is not a fair comparison due to the known shorter trips their cars make, week to week the average vehicle to fuel for a weeks typical work is comparable to here, also who drinks 200L of water in a 10h day or 200 L of beer a day, e-tec owners excluded:).

The price of diesel is the true rort, it should still be holding the same price point in relation to Unleaded as it was 4 years ago.

cheers fnq

[Roughasguts]

How come the price of 5 litres of oil on the servo shelf, doesn't fluctuate through out the week and cheapest on Tuesday.

Surely the 5 litres oil would take up a larger proportion of the so called barrel of oil and be more prone to price fluctuations, but nup seems to be around the same price for the last few years.

[backlash08]

Roughasguts - as I understand it, the base oil used in the manufacture of lubes is traded differently on global markets to the crude in lighter products such as ULP and deisel, also the manuacturing costs of lubes are influenced heavily by other factors such as chemical and additive costs. As I understand it, base oil used in manufacturing of lubes has increased greater than 100% in the last 2 years, lucky that foregin exchange rates has been in our favor - cheers

[trueblue]

the ROI & profits of oil companies is very low compared to other industies - especially when one considers the capital required to run refineries and retail outlets, not to mention emession targets R&D - the cost of fuels is primarly influenced by the barrel price ($108 today) and somewhat by taxes, state and federal. Screaming about profitering by the oil companies is little more than political pointscoring (IMO) If oil companies enjoyed the same ROI as other leading industries we would already be paying ~$3 p/l. What we pay will be heavily influenced by crude price, emession leglisation and taxes.

Refineries don't make a great deal on the refining... thats correct.

BUT, most of the refining companies also produce crude oil at the US $ 108 per barrel in separate arms of their big conglomerate companies. The oil price was only $ 40 per barrel a few years ago, so they are making squillions and trying to confuse everyone by saying that they are not making much at the refineries and taking our focus away from the reality of their profits from drilling and producing oil.

[stick]

I'll have a bitch. Is this warning of $3 warming the water when their expecting $4. I dont know about you people but i dont put much faith in the big corprate world.These companies know there resources will run out and business is about making what you can from what you got with some line about protecting shareholders intrests. Plebs of no signifigance,such as myself, being slaves to fuel will continue to line up because well its to far to row to the shelf. Damn-it

[Peter4]

Petrol going up to $3 a litre within 10 years - who cares! I expect to be earning at least double (if not more) than I'm earning now.

What was I earning 10 years ago and how much was fuel then? Can't remember and still don't care!

The biggest laugh is all the mugs lining up 10 cars deep on Tuesday night at Capalaba to save 15 cents a litre. In the average 45 litre tank that's about a $6.75 saving.

They probably spent $5 driving around to find the best price!

[Noelm]

don't know about earning twice as much as you are now, but if you, then good on ya!! but something that does get up my nose a bit (and it has been mentioned before) is WHY or HOW can fuel be cheaper on Tuesdays?? does Oil miraculously get cheaper on Mondays Market? does the exchange rate change every Monday night? that is what really smells fishy about the whole price thing! and I fully agree, unless I need fuel on Tuesday, then I do not wait for then to fill up.

[Grunter71]

don't know about earning twice as much as you are now, but if you, then good on ya!! but something that does get up my nose a bit (and it has been mentioned before) is WHY or HOW can fuel be cheaper on Tuesdays?? does Oil miraculously get cheaper on Mondays Market? does the exchange rate change every Monday night? that is what really smells fishy about the whole price thing! and I fully agree, unless I need fuel on Tuesday, then I do not wait for then to fill up.

For work, I travel to Gympie (about 150km's north of Brisbane) a day or two a month. I have noticed that whatever day of the week it is, fuel up there is always the same price as Brisbane prices at the lower part of the cycle. If I go up there on a Monday, it will be similar to Brisbane prices. If I go up there on a Thursday or Friday it is 5 - 10 cents less.

[Outsider1]

The capital city petrol price cycles are pretty easy to understand really. Aussies being pretty resistant to change have been filling their vehicles up on pay day for years. Pay day for most is usually a Thursday or Friday (some weekly, others fortnightly and a few monthly). So demand for petrol is through the roof on Thursday and Friday and into the weekends, but pretty low in the early part of the week.

Despite the significant discount on offer earlier in the week, the majority of Aussies have stuck to the fill it up on pay day approach. However that now seems to be finally changing!. Like Peter4 I noticed the big petrol station queues on Tuesday night at a number of services stations, mainly the Coles/Woolworths owned ones it would seem. If it continues I think you you find the discounts will start to diminish earlier in the week over time.

Cheers

Dave

[wags on the water]

When I see on the news about the price of fuel (IN BRISBANE) going to top $1.40/l, just think of your fellow queenslanders (AWAY FROM BRISBANE) already paying that and more all the time. NOT everything revolves around BRISBANE!

My 2cents.
Wags

[Noelm]

I agree that most may fill up on Thursday or Friday, but it is still being crooked and setting a high price on those days, it does NOT just get cheaper because it is Tuesday! that's my point, now I guess the Service Stations could put an end to this, and make it dear on Tuesdays as well, but the fact remains, if they can sell for $X on Tuesday, they can sell it for $X the day before a Public Holiday! there is just no clear explanation other than we are be sh!t on, on a Thursday or Friday, and sh!t on and screwed as well on the days before Holidays!

[Noelm]

aahh that feels better, Thursday afternoon before I had a good whinge.

[Outsider1]

Yeah, I understand your frustration Noelm, but like most I think you are reading the price differences the wrong way.

Most seem to think of it as they put the price up on Wednesday and leading into the weekend. But reality is that the end of the week price is the normal price, with their normal profit margins. The early in the week prices is actually price discounting when sales volumes are much lower.

It is no different to a fruit shop, or a cake shop ,or whatever retailer that has stock that they want to move and business is slow, they put on specials, they discount, they offer deals!. It is called supply and demand and it is the same everywhere in retail.

Anyway, it is reality and you can bitch about it as much as you like (it does feel good though eh LOL) but it ain't going to change one little bit unless we the consumer change our buying habits. Simple as that.

Cheers

Dave; who fills up on Tuesday's if he needs to

[insideout]

Methinks that im going to buy a piece of land and grow my own diesel as the boys from top gear are doing as we speak...which brings me to my next thought, why are the farmers not growing fuel for diesels, with all our expance of land and diversity being the name of the game at the moment, even if they sold it for 60 cents a litre they would be cleaning up....and the fuel companies would have finally shot themselves in the foot.Is this line of thinking alittle too outside of the square??::)

[Outsider1]

Methinks that im going to buy a piece of land and grow my own diesel as the boys from top gear are doing as we speak...which brings me to my next thought, why are the farmers not growing fuel for diesels, with all our expance of land and diversity being the name of the game at the moment, even if they sold it for 60 cents a litre they would be cleaning up....and the fuel companies would have finally shot themselves in the foot.Is this line of thinking alittle too outside of the square??::)

I read some where that it takes something like the equivalent of 850,000 litres of crude oil to make 1,000,000 litres of ethanol. Fuel for the farm machinery etc, fuel for transport, fuel/power for the distillery etc etc. Bio Fuel is just not viable long term. Plus our farmers can't grow enough food as it is, so using the country to grow fuel crops means food shortages and price hikes. It happened in the US last year. They started growing large acreages of corn for ethanol production and the price of corn went up over 400% due to shortages of food corn.

If you take out all of our government's taxes, the price of fuel would be about 65c.

Cheers

Dave

[Taroona]

If there was jail for collusion do you think the oil prices would change

[Outsider1]

If there was jail for collusion do you think the oil prices would change

That is a good question Les (I assume you meant fuel prices, not oil), you would have to ask the Refinery Execs that one. I don't know any, so have never posed the question.

I do know that the AAC has tried to prosecute collusion, and they even won one case but it got overturned on appeal, so they are batting zero at present. I suspect that whilst it would introduce a pile of red tape to hinder them, it would not worry them too much.

Cheers

Dave

[Outsider1]

Most people don't realise that the price of oil today is only about what it was during the first oil crisis back in the early 70s, if you adjust for inflation.

Oil was artificially cheap during the 90's due to Gulf War 1, In the aftermath, Saddam pumped oil like there was no tomorrow and drove the price down (sub $30 a barrel). Saddam owed 100s of billions (borrowed for weapons etc, plus restitution to Kuwait etc) and had to pay it off, plus generate income for the war ravaged country.

Then modern capitalist China came along and demand increased big time, and then we had Gulf War 2 and no more Saddam.

Cheers

Dave

[Taroona]

The trouble is the ACCC has no teeth and everybody in power knows that so while the executive's of a corporation may or will be fined, the penalty is still only in money terms. However if there was the threat of jail as there is in the US I think the competion in the oil/petrol markets would be a lot different.

also don't lets forget who put Saddam in power in the first place

Les

[insideout]

How can people beat a oil company,with all their money, they will bury you in litigation for 100 years, even if you have a case, and everybody knows it. So who has the big stick here?? So the only thing is to try to move away from using their product and embrace alternative thinking, to finally send a message. As i have said on another similar topic, they will increase the price so much that people will vote with their money and invest heavily in other technologies, and eventually demand for fossil fuel will decrease. This will not happen quickly, however.

[Outsider1]

The trouble is the ACCC has no teeth and everybody in power knows that so while the executive's of a corporation may or will be fined, the penalty is still only in money terms. However if there was the threat of jail as there is in the US I think the competion in the oil/petrol markets would be a lot different.

also don't lets forget who put Saddam in power in the first place

Les


Don't disagree Les.

Cheers

Dave

[Fatenhappy]

And so I come back to part of my original statement and throw it in another way .... Why when I was in the middle east for 6 years didn't the price very by 1 cent ? ... the huge difference, .... the bloody oil companies had to knuckle under to the local (which ever countries it was) authorities.

All around the world as is now ... the price kept going up and down (but not as much as the Tuesday afternoon here in Bribane) but not at all in the middle east.

Some will say oh yea, but they produce it .... my response so what! As the famous add used to say "Oils an't oil Sol .... " ... "But oil is oil SOL" and its all the same stuff so lets just stop the crap!

Woops .... sorry about that!

As Roughasguts said ...

How come the price of 5 litres of oil on the servo shelf, doesn't fluctuate through out the week and cheapest on Tuesday.

Surely the 5 litres oil would take up a larger proportion of the so called barrel of oil and be more prone to price fluctuations, but nup seems to be around the same price for the last few years.

Well, "oil is oil SOL " and that's all there is to it, except for the greedy buggers in western countries

As an aside ... empithy really goes out to all the family independant operators who get done over a barrell ...

Ahh, that feels better ..... ;)

[castlemaine]

Reality check for me was when I compared the amount of money I spend on fuel (not including the boat and mower) vs groceries. Half ... not only do we do the usual school drop-off, work, etc; we do a lot driving on the weekends.

Comes down to how much you spend on a necessity or luxury. How much do you spend on your boat and car vs your house?

I'm trying to co-ordinate one trip for a variety of jobs.

This still mean we have to be ripped-off.

Cheers

[banshee]

How can people beat a oil company,with all their money, they will bury you in litigation for 100 years, even if you have a case, and everybody knows it. So who has the big stick here?? So the only thing is to try to move away from using their product and embrace alternative thinking, to finally send a message. As i have said on another similar topic, they will increase the price so much that people will vote with their money and invest heavily in other technologies, and eventually demand for fossil fuel will decrease. This will not happen quickly, however.

How can people beat an oil company.........Interestingly a bloke on here about four years ago,named Jaybe,proposed that everyone get behind a 'movement' (for want of a better word) that had everyone boycot one particular companies servos untill the price was droped to a predetirmened level (by this company),if the company conformed then everyone was to start useing this companies fuel untill someone else droped the price to another predetirmened level and so on,loyalty would only be shown to one company at a time untill this price fixing shit came to an end.

[WHALEOIL]

Caltex says "Prepare for $3.30 a litre"

So 1.50 will be more digestable.

[Fatenhappy]

I'm with you Whaleoil .... the comments are only there for us to say hey 1.50 ... 1.60 ... 1.70 ..... well thats not to bad compared to 3 bucks a litre ...

In case you haven;t guest already, very little gets me goin' more than all this crap !!!

In the mean time ... have a good one!!!

By the way, like the name Whaleoil , reminds me of a real good Irish joke about important stuff, like Whale ... Oil ... Beef .... Hooked ... but this isn't the forum ;D ;D ;D ... so I better not tell it !!!

[insideout]

How can people beat an oil company.........Interestingly a bloke on here about four years ago,named Jaybe,proposed that everyone get behind a 'movement' (for want of a better word) that had everyone boycot one particular companies servos untill the price was droped to a predetirmened level (by this company),if the company conformed then everyone was to start useing this companies fuel untill someone else droped the price to another predetirmened level and so on,loyalty would only be shown to one company at a time untill this price fixing shit came to an end.

Very interesting concept,and something that we should all think about. But the powers that be know we are not a nation of people that stick together on a united front for a extended time, otherwise we could bend and shape this nation to how we wanted.Yes a great idea, and something that i would love to see happen, but also we are a very diverse lot , and divide and conquer is something that the powers that be are well versed in, so until we all can get behind this sort of thing and stay behind it as a country, it is doomed from the start.

[seabug]

Does not seem to be worrying the owner of this CAT

http://www.kiteship.com/photoview.php?show=1.jpg

http://www.kiteship.com/outleader.php

Regards
seabug

[SgBFish]

Its interesting in 1973 when the first real oil shock hit oil was predicted to only last for 20 years. What happened we all used it more efficiently. I think we will still be using it in 20 years time. There is so much vested interest in us to keep using it. Efficiency will improve and hybrids, blends what ever will occur.
The death of fossil fuels has always been predicted prematurely.
Scott

[BM]

Well, there are numerous things we can do.

1 in particular is to look into electric technology. I have been spending some time researching electric motors and hopefully in the near future (aka next 6-12 months) I'd like to modify a say, 6mtr, boat ot run on single or twin electric motors.

I'd like to further investigate the cost differential of planing versus semi planing.

Perhaps in the future of escalating fuel pricing we need to look at alternate ways in which we do things. Does our 6mtr boat really NEED that 200hp engine?? What if it went slower (quite a bit slower) but was electrically powered? Or can we make it nearly as fast electrically? and if so at what battery cost and weight?

Numerous companies are playing with the e-boat idea and I reckon its part of our future. But high hp outboard and sterndrive engines will always be there too.

At the end of the day boating is a luxury and all luxuries attract a premium pricing structure. Those that don't like that obviously have an easy option - don't participate. Its just like snow skiing etc

I have sold hundreds of boats and engines over the past 5 yrs but I don't presently own a boat myself (well, I sort of do but they are always for sale).

Cheers

[TimiBoy]

Funny how crapping your pants over threads like this one is so pointless.

"The International Energy Agency said Wednesday that it expected the price of oil to rebound above $US100 and eventually reach $US200 by 2030.
In a report on the global energy outlook, the agency said it predicted the price to average $US100 from 2008 to 2015."

And what happened to the $6 a litre everyone went looney about?

As Pinhead pointed out early in this thread, just enjoy the ride, because no one has a damn clue about where it will head!

Funny how people want to believe the worst. Hell, it sold lots of newspapers...

Tim

[mik01]

Funny how crapping your pants over threads like this one is so pointless.

"The International Energy Agency said Wednesday that it expected the price of oil to rebound above $US100 and eventually reach $US200 by 2030.
In a report on the global energy outlook, the agency said it predicted the price to average $US100 from 2008 to 2015."

And what happened to the $6 a litre everyone went looney about?

As Pinhead pointed out early in this thread, just enjoy the ride, because no one has a damn clue about where it will head!

Funny how people want to believe the worst. Hell, it sold lots of newspapers...

Tim

hey Tim,

you may also recall that those 'oracles of truth' (the media) proclaimed the prices of milk and bread & other staples would skyrocket and the world would come to an end!

I guess the only saving grace to the market economy is that is eventually corrects itself - sometimes spectacularly! those greedy people possibly now are raiding their piggy banks...

[Fish'n Junky]

I find it easy to bitch about the price of diesel in particular, given it costs way less to refine. Bitches aside, rising prices will make the development of renewable fuels more economically viable. For example: biodiesel.
Imagine the benefits of having thousands of farms growing things like peanuts, olives, macadamias, and other plants to provide the oil needed to mass produce biodiesel. Not only are there thousands employed in the farming, but also in the refining (ok. not as many as needed in refining fossil fuels, but this could ALL be done in Australia, not overseas). To top it off, we end up with a product that is comparable in price, maybe cheaper, than what we have today, and it is totally sustainable. Not only sustainable, but offsetting it's own emissions due to the fact that plants are actually grown to produce it, instead of the raw materials just being dug out of the ground.

[ozbee]

stop talking like that fisn,h junky your making sense don't you realise how many bureaucrats it takes to make the garbage they put out plausible. the whole economy could fall into recession.

[tin can marlin]

And houses that are 400k now eill be a million then and wages will go up to match i'am a member of the mua and this sort of stuff comes all the time thats why people should be in unions.

[PinHead]

haha tcm..and in one union's latest "collective" agreement claim...36 hour week (13 more RDO's per annum)...7% increase in wages each year...increase in super payments..increase in allowances etc etc etc..and who pays for all these? the employers...and finally us (the ci=onsumer)..that is one of the reasons prices increase..increased manufacturing costs re employees...and you wonder why manufacturing businesses go offshore. The ironic part of the claim is..no mention of any increased productivity.

[Dean1]

I do have to fully agree with pinhead. Sorry tcm.

Thats so true, unions put these ideas into the employees heads and all the employee sees is the positives to themselves. Im not a company man im self employed (altho nothing wrong with a company man at least he genuinly cares about his employer and his future in the company) so i know that if these conditions that the unions push would then in turn push the employer to push up their prices to compensate, then they dont win a great deal of work as their prices are so high, next thing they dont have the work to keep them employed so they get laid off and they shot themself in the foot. Less hours worked means less production so more people employed.

Fair days work for a fair days pay is my moto. Theirs not as much profit in contracts these days as most employees think. Theirs alot of costs, time, and risk to running your own bussiness that alot of 'unionists' dont realize unfortunately. Not starting an argument just know how it all works.

Cheers Deano.

[Donny Boy]

In the same boat as you Deano.....Self Employed

Remind me again how lucky we are.......................