New Battery Losing Charge

[Splash]

Team,

I am after opinions on why my crank battery is losing charge?

I have been told alternator, regulator...

What other possible causes of loss charge could there be?

How do I troubleshoot :
1) 'leaky charge' batteries (if at all)
2) Identify component causing charge loss


SPlash

[TheRealAndy]

could be anything. First thing to check is how much current is being drawn from the battery when everything is switched off.

A good test is to fully charge the battery with nothing connected to it. If it normally goes flat in a day, try reconnecting it after a day and if it still works then you can be assured that the battery is ok.

If the battery is ok then you need to use a process of elimintaion to find the problem. A good multimeter will speed up the process. Isolate each part that could be drawing power. Eventually will find that one part that is causing the problem.

If only the motor is connected to the crank battery, and the battery is ok I would probably suggest an autosparky or the nautical equivelant.

[tunaticer]

As Andy suggests, remove everything from the wiring harness and one by one connect to the battery supply. Check there is no voltage drop with every single connection made. Another thing to check is the battery, disconnect it and check voltage then check again in 24 hours, you should see no drop or extremely little dropin the readings over a 24 hour period. If there is a drop check your regulator/charge system for over-supply.

Jack.

[finga]

Firstly check the battery voltage after a long run.
If the battery isn't charging right then it would 'seem' to loose charge.
In your sounder or GPS there might be a voltage indicator.
Have a look at this too whilst under way and then when your stopped.
Remember if the voltage reading do-dad is in the sounder only turn it on in the water.

Some more details of time frames (ie running, time to go flat etc) and how you've been using the boat (short runs, long runs, lots of starting at home etc) will help as well matey :)

Have you got a multi-meter matey??
If so does it have a current setting??
Cheers Scott :)

[rayken1938]

If you do not have access to a multimeter a crude test can be done by using a small festoon bulb preferably a 5 watt one as it will indicate a small leakage.
Disconnect the positive lead from your battery. Battery will have a + sign near terminal and the lead is usually red.
Turn everything off and hold one end of the bulb against the battery terminal and touch the lead to the other end.
If the bulb lights you have a problem and will have to use a process of elimination to locate the faulty circuit.
If the bulb doesnt light I would suspect that the battery is past its use by date.
Where are you I am in redlands and have meter and battery load tester.
Cheers
Ray

[Splash]

Thanks boys.

I have a separate battery for all accessories and only use the crank battery for cranking the motor.

What specs should I look for in a good multimeter?

On average run once / week for around 5 hours.

Splash

[finga]

If the battery is just for the motor I'd say you might have a crook rectifier old mate.

Try the bulb test as Ray has described.
It's a very simple test that works wonders.
You can use just a 12v test lamp if you can't find a bulb.
If it lights even slightly it's a matter of "Huston..we have a problem".

[Splash]

I will grab a multimeter from work.

What should I be testing/looking for when using a multimeter?

Splash

[Splash]

OK _ I now have the multimeter in my hot little hand.

On the bottom it has 4 plug holes 'A', 'mA', 'COM', 'V'.

Which hole should the black lead plug into and dittio for the red lead.

I know a little about these things and have used them before but not tooo sure where these leads ar elugged into when measuring current loss and then voltage loss..?

Am I looking for current loss or voltage loss or both?

SPlash

[finga]

righto then we'll look for current loss
bung a black lead into the COM hole
bung a red lead in the mA or A hole (if it's a DC setting)
bung the little dial thingo or setting onto DCmA or DCA (corresponding setting to the hole you bunged the red lead into) and thusly turning it on.
take the battery connection off one of the battery terminals.
bung one lead on the battery terminal and a lead on the terminal you took off the terminal.
The reading should be zero...zip...nada... or 0
If the reading is anything even minus something then that's the drain showing up.
What brand/model is the multi meter??

[Splash]

Thanks Finga - Your'e funny!

The Multi-meter is called Fluke 87 True RMS Multimeter.

I will do this test tonight.

Does it matter what terminal touches which lead?

If the reading is -ve, what do I measure next (rectifier or other engine component)?

Will the reading ever be +ve?

Can you explain more cleary your statement:
" bung one lead on the battery terminal and a lead on the terminal you took off the terminal..."


Also, should I also test/record actual voltage levels at rest?

Spalsh

[finga]

Mate, that multi meter is crap. Send it too me when your done ;)

Na just kidding...that's a humdinger :)
Don't matter what terminal touches what lead as any reading other then zero is not so good.
" bung one lead on the battery terminal and a lead on the terminal you took off the terminal..."
Oky dokky...bung the red lead of the multi-meter (now referred to as Luke (the Fluke.... get it???))
Anyways bung Luke's red lead on the battery post and the black lead on the terminal that you took off the battery post.
Luke should read zero.
If Luke says anything else then it will mean further investigation.

[finga]

Forgot to mention...to get dcmA or dcA on Luke the Fluke just put the selector switch on the mA/A setting and push the top left button. That'll get dc and the little crosswise AC squiggle will go off the screen and a cross line with some dashes under it will appear. This is the dc symbol :)

[Splash]

Hi Finga.

Did the deed with Luke.

Zero mA (black on lose terminal, red on post)
-18mA (red on lose terminal, black on post)

THoughts?

If I leave both terminals on posts for days after a fishing trip, will this drain battery?

Splash

[finga]

mate the readings should be the same value but one + and one -.
Better try it again and see what's the go.
18mA is bugger all though over a week. :-/

Was that with the leads in Luke's A hole or mA hole??
If it was the A hole try the mA hole with the test lead.


Don't know why but that just sounds wrong :-[

[Splash]

Luke's red lead was in mA hole.

Re-tested again.

That value was actually (-ve) 1.8mA (with red on lose terminal, black on post).

Still get zero reading when black ob lose termianl, red on post.

Splash

[Splash]

How do itest the rectifier?

ANd, other components?

I only have this multimeter overnight...

SPlash

[rayken1938]

18 milliamps may just be through rectifier I am suspecting battery even if it is new or could be dicky starter motor or leads. Does motor start ok using jumper leads?
Cheers
Ray

[Splash]

never tried using jumper leads.

BTW - value is 1.8 mA not 18mA .

PLease concur.

Is there anything else I can test tonight - if so how - ?

As I am returning multimeter tomorrow.

SPlash

[Poseidon]

I could be way off track here but with all the electronics in motors these days and gauges, control box and the like, perhaps the 1.8mA is normal. Like the load on your car battery from the digital clock even with the ignition off.

I was thinking about my motor then remembered the isolator fitted that I religiously open between trips which would open circuit any load on the battery for whatever reason.

Not sure if this helps however it would be a bugger to go pulling things apart only to find it totally normal and cured with the fitment of a battery isolator.

Regards Cameron.

[Simmo2]

Is the motor charging the battery ok in the first place???
Put the meter on DC volts, measure the voltage across the battery.
Start the engine, rev to say 1500, measure the voltage again.
What are the readings?

[Splash]

Cameron - That's what I am thinking too.

Simmo - Can't do that tonight - damn if only I knew 5 hours ago in day light when neghobors still awake.

I will ask for multimeter again over weekend - hopefully I can get it.

[snasman]

Put the red lead in the amps socket ,black into com and set the fluke to dc amps then test as has been described, if the reading is .18 A it is to high and will send your battery flat overnight if this is the case leave the meter in place and start removing any fuses you may have comming off of the main harness,and look out for the meter to drop to hopefully a zero reading if this fails and the reading dosnt change chances are you have a failed diode in the alternator and it will need to be repaired.on the average motor vehicle you will have an amp draw of less than .04 Amp so on a boat with no other acceseries ie clock,alarm light,there should be no reading at all,bye the way your results are reading I would have as a quess that the meter is set on a/c range ,good luck snas

[driveon]

I will ask for multimeter again over weekend - hopefully I can get it.

Hi Splash, if you can’t get the Fluke for the weekend, go to a Dick Smiths store and spend $10 on an elcheapo multi meter.

No where near as accurate as the Fluke but for what you are using it for, any multi meter will do and it doesn’t hurt to have one in your tool kit.

Next, if you have a battery charger or access to one, fully charge the battery and start again from there.

BTW snasman, sorry mate but 180ma would take at least 3 weeks to flatten a 100 A/H battery, not over night.

Cheers

[Splash]

Thanks guys.

I have tripple checked and ensured the range is on DC and not AC.

I am seeing 1.8mA, not 0.18A or 180mA.

I will ask today to see if I can borrow Luke over weekend.

Please confirm if a 1.8mA is enough to warrant further investigation.

Splash

[Poseidon]

1.8mA (or 0.0018A) is that small a discharge it would be difficult to read accurately even on the mA scale of the fluke, we are talking 1.8 of them.

I don't think that it would be worth locating the source as I still believe that it may be normal and certainly not enough to discharge the battery in any noticeable space of time.

I would be thinking more upon the lines that your battery may not be getting a decent charge.

If you are worried about it remove the lead going to the motor between trips or fit an isolator.

Hope that you get it sorted.

[Splash]

What is a decent charge mean?

Which lead should be removed in between trips?

[snasman]

What is a decent charge mean?


Disconnect either lead and put a battery charger on it for 24 hours, You must use a trickle charger ie your standard elchepo battery charger from any auto shop (will cost between 15 to 20 bucks).


Which lead should be removed in between trips?


Remove either lead it dosnt matter

But you shouldnt have to, this is just a bandaid cover for the real problem

[station-rat]

Hi Splash
Does your motor have a regulator/rectifier or just a rectifier fitted? The regulator/rectifiers use a very small amount of power just by being connected to the battery, engine not running.
Station-rat:D

[Splash]

What is a decent charge mean?


Disconnect either lead and put a battery charger on it for 24 hours, You must use a trickle charger ie your standard elchepo battery charger from any auto shop (will cost between 15 to 20 bucks).


Which lead should be removed in between trips?


Remove either lead it dosnt matter

But you shouldnt have to, this is just a bandaid cover for the real problem

Thanks Snasman.

When i trickle charge, I normally remove both leads - SHould I still retain this method or just remove one lead?

Spalsh

[Splash]

Hi Splash
Does your motor have a regulator/rectifier or just a rectifier fitted? The regulator/rectifiers use a very small amount of power just by being connected to the battery, engine not running.
Station-rat:D

Thanks SRAT!

I think I just have the rectrifier. Where can i locate the regulator if I do have one?

SPlash

[Splash]

People.

After all this, my problem of battery going flat still remains.... :-(

What other troubleshooting pointers can you lead me to?

Splash

[station-rat]

Have you checked if the battery is being charged when running?
What is the voltage when running?
Station-rat

[station-rat]

What makes you think that the battery is going flat? No I am not trying too be funny
Station-rat

[Splash]

TRHanks SRAT.

How to check if battery is being charged wehn running?

Last Monday I was 30km out at sea and I was unable to start my engine. Fuel was not the issue. When I limped back home, I put my battery on the charger and looked at the charge - half flat. That's why I think the battery is going flat. I was unabel to start my donk at home to flush so I connected the charge to battery. Waited for 2 hours, then I was able to start/flush my donk.

Splash

[station-rat]

Ok
You need to borrow the multimeter.
Check voltage before you start, and again after it is running.
If the voltage is higher with it running,that is good.
If the voltage is the same or lower that is bad.
You probally wont see a big increase in voltage at idle, but you should see some.
Station-rat

[Splash]

Thanks.

To pre-empt things more:

If voltage is lower or same whilst running, what components do I investigate/troubleshoot?

Splash

[station-rat]

rectifier ---Test with multimeter
Coil under flywheel --- Test with multimeter
Your tacho still working correctly?
Station-rat

[Splash]

Thansk SRAT!

How do I test rectifier, coil and tacho?

What voltage should I see on a fully charge healthy battery?

What voltage should I see on battery when it's donk is running on water?

Splash

[driveon]

Hi Splash, you should be getting around 14 volts with the motor running but I would recommend you take you boat to an auto electrician or marine auto electrician because there are a number of situations that can occur and you just won’t know which device is causing the problem.

For example, because many marine motor alternators are fairly small, if you battery is stuffed and you get the motor running, if you measure the voltage and find it’s low, you won’t know if it’s low because the alternator is faulty or the alternator’s voltage is being pulled down because the battery is faulty.

Getting a flat battery in your car is one thing but getting a flat battery while miles out to sea seems to me to be a bit scary.

Cheers

[station-rat]

Splash
PM sent
Station-rat

[Poseidon]

Are you sure that you have no other loads connected to the crank battery, a sounder etc?

The reason I ask is that I went and measured the load on my battery and found 2.19mA being the load of the sounder sitting turned off, this is quite normal as many sounders will consume power sitting switched off.

Even this 2.19mA has little effect on the battery as there have been times that I have forgotten to turn off the isolator and the battery still cranks over the motor some weeks later.

With the sounder unplugged the load on the battery is zero amps.

Picture attached is the reading with the sounder connected.

Hope this helps.

[Splash]

PM sent SRAT.

Thanks Posoiden. - I purposely wired up second battery for stuff like sounders. I am sure which wire are which and I am sure the sounder wires are not connected - even on my second battery.

Interesting thoughts.

Splash

[FNQCairns]

Hey Splash, what about chargeing the problem battery up, fit it, pack a multimeter onboard + another spare trusted and fully charged battery then go fishing.

Hang and travel close inshore and at cruise speed get someone to measure the volts at the battery, anything between 13.5 to 15.5 would lead me to believe without further evidence the engine side (charging) is Ok.

Then I would look toward all ignition connections (ignition switch also) for high impedance (sp), I wouldn't strictly need to do this with a multimeter I could simply pull each clean and shine them then refit, working on the idea that this is a good thing to do anyway and the possibility that once on the water you may have a connection may not like offshore salt air ie spray landing in the boat constantly sometimes.

Then in the absence of any further symptoms I would carry a spare battery for a while but condsider it fixed.

Noises eminating from an ignition switch when turning the key is a very good indicator of a poor/loose/dirty connection somewhere even at the ends of the battery cables, salt spray really plays havoc at times given a little time but batterys are pretty robust and unless abused somehow hardly ever cause a problem by the odds but of coarse they can be at fault also.

cheers fnq

[driveon]

Hang and travel close inshore and at cruise speed get someone to measure the volts at the battery, anything between 13.5 to 15.5 would lead me to believe without further evidence the engine side (charging) is Ok.

Hi FNQCairns, 13.8 to 14.7 is the correct charging voltage range for automotive and marine batteries.

Any lower and the battery will not fully charge and may not charge at all.

Any higher and the battery will be cooked and most AGM and Gel Cell batteries have a maximum recommended charging voltage of 14.4.

Cheers

[Simmo2]

Didnt 'we' just say all this in post 21?
Without that info, we are just goin round in circles.

[FNQCairns]

Hi FNQCairns, 13.8 to 14.7 is the correct charging voltage range for automotive and marine batteries.

Any lower and the battery will not fully charge and may not charge at all.

Any higher and the battery will be cooked and most AGM and Gel Cell batteries have a maximum recommended charging voltage of 14.4.

Cheers

Yeah thanks driveon, yeah you are right but not many batterys will maintain a full charge in use outside of laboratory conditions, I am happy if a lead acid I buy holds 90% of its specified rating after 10 trips and unregulated outboards can see up to almost 16V as normal not nice but it is common.

So at cruise depending on what the individual considers cruise speed 13.5 to 15.5 will show that the charging side is ok for but I would hope a cleanup of wire contacts would deal with the lower number here, if it didn't raise to 14V or more above 3500rpm I would do some more checking.

cheers fnq

[station-rat]

Splash
You should have 2 diagrams in your e-mail account
Station-rat

[Splash]

An itneresting thread - glad for all your input thus far...

OK - Here's the deal - I was abel to keep the multimeter over the weekend :-)

I will run boat tomorrow with the multimater on board and test voltage.


Will battery lose charge if sitting for a week at home with both leads (to motor) still attahced?

SPlash

[station-rat]

Any battery will loose charge just sitting, not even connected to motor.
It all depends on condition of battery,temp,what the battery is sitting on,how clean the top is, allsorts of things.But a good battery will still hold enough charge to start a motor after 2 months. I would suspect the problem to be the battery is not being charged while the motor is running
Station-rat

[Splash]

Splash
You should have 2 diagrams in your e-mail account
Station-rat

SRAT - emal sent back.

Unable to open and view pictures for some reason...

THoughts?

Splash

[station-rat]

Sent as BMP ---see if that works for you
Station-rat

[Splash]

Thanks SRAT - goth em. Works good now.

Big weekend coming up - and will let you all know of outcomes..

Splash

[Splash]

AS some of you know, I have had dramas thi sweekedn and have not been able to hit the water for test.

Can I still test for battery charging, whislt running at home?

SPlash

[station-rat]

Splash
You can check battery voltage before you startup, and then again when it is running (I would not run it much above 1200rpm on muffs) You should see a voltage increase, about the voltage before starting.
Station-rat

[Splash]

Splash
You can check battery voltage before you startup, and then again when it is running (I would not run it much above 1200rpm on muffs) You should see a voltage increase, about the voltage before starting.
Station-rat

OK - I'll try. I know FNQ mentioned I need to do above 3500RPM - but probably unlikely on muffs.

Stand by.

I'll also try rectifier test.

SPlash

[Splash]

Just ran it at 1400RPM - no vlotage change - 12.97V.

I did not want to run it any higher - I will re- test next weekend now..

SPlash

[station-rat]

Think it might be time to check the restance of the coil in the flywheel and the rectifier.When you look under the flywheel is there any black goo dripping from the coils in the flywheel???
Station-rat

[Splash]

Is there any special way I have to put the flywheel back after I remove?

SPlash

[station-rat]

You do not have to remove it yet!
Just look under the flywheel for the black goo and test the resistance of the coils
Station-rat

[Splash]

how to test resitance of coils?

[Splash]

no goo black observed

[station-rat]

The 2 diagrams that I e-mailed to you show the procedure to check both of them
Station-rat

[Splash]

ok - resistance = voltage. i get it.

i did follow those procedures and want to know what difference between a large drop and a small drop - they procedures refer to...?

Splash

[station-rat]

Are you refering to checking the stator coil in the flywheel or checking the rectifier?

[Splash]

rectifier........................

[station-rat]

you are checking the diodes in the rectifier
They should let current flow in one direction but not in the other
Multimeter should be on high ohms setting, and you will get a high reading between 2 wires and if you reverse the test leads you will get a low reading if the diodes are ok

[station-rat]

Splash
What were the results of your testing of the rectifier?
Station-rat

[Splash]

stand by..................

[finga]

Does the taco work matey??
That's a sign that the rectifier/regulator is on the fritz.
Just a sign though mind you and no way conclusive.

[Splash]

Finga,

How to tell if tacho is not workign properly?

I will provide results from rectifier diodes wihtin next 15 mins.

Splash

[Splash]

Results:

+ -
Yellow/Grey 0.048 0.004
Yellow 0.015 0.030
Red 0.033 0.030
Red + Yellow/grey 0.026 0.003
Red + Yellow 0 0

THoughts?

Splash

[station-rat]

Engine ground--- Yellow/Grey lead 0.048 0.004
Engine Ground --- Yellow Lead 0.030 0.015
Red Lead---Yellow/Grey Lead 0.026 0.003
Red ---Yellow ????????????????
Is this your result. Something not right with Red and Yellow leads

What scale where you using for the high ohms test?

[finga]

Finga,

How to tell if tacho is not workign properly?

I will provide results from rectifier diodes wihtin next 15 mins.

Splash
Is the needle moving??

[Splash]

OK boys, those first readings were crap - please ignore.

Here is my next set (DC setting and mV) :

Yellow/grey 5.7 -0.4
Yellow 2.6 -0.3
Red 6.9 -0.4
Red & yellow/grey 1.0 -1.4
Red & Yellow 3.0 -1.1

Finga - Needle moves on tacho.

THoughts?

Splash

[station-rat]

If you set the scale to 2000k
Ground to Yellow/Grey reads 520 (leads reversed reads 1 )
Ground to Yellow reads 620 (leads reversed reads 1 )
Red to Yellow/Grey reads570 (leads reversed reads 1 )
Red to Yellow reads 590 (leads reversed reads 1 )
These are reading from a known good rectifier, Yours may not be exactly the same
Station-rat

[Splash]

Thanks SRAT.

If I set the Fluke to this scale (2000k), I see nothing.

[station-rat]

On the 2000K setting does it show 1 without touching the leads together and 000 if you touch the leads together???

[seabug]

Hi Splash,
It might be worthwhile getting an auto electricion to LOAD Test your battery.
I know of 3 instances where new batteries were not holding charge and the problem was a dead cell.

Two of these were standard truck batteries and the other was a Calcium battery.

One of these was tested on a $3000 computerised test machine and OK'ed
A test on a small machine at the auto electrician showed the faulty cell

Regards
seabug

[station-rat]

Splash
Where have you gone mate,You are very quiet tonight

[Splash]

hi guys.

still here..

Jsut had to book some flights online for Sept this year.

GOve - Cairns - LA - Cairns - Gove : HUGE Holiday coming up (IN USA) later this year...

I also jsut watched the biggest bank robbery/shootout in American history on Austar - real footage - fckn amazing stuff - those cowboys!!:o

2 Bank robbers fitted out with steel full body armour and steel piercing rounds with AK47 automatic machine guns.... wasted away the Bank of America then walked ut and blasted the crap out of all the coppers and theirs cars with bullets going right through the cars and blasting human bones away on the other side...then one robber ends up putting a bullet through his chin/brain - the other hammered with 30 shots in his lower legs by SWAT (only part that was not protected..)

Yes, we will be taking out life insurance before we depart. .........:)

SRAT - On the Fluke scale - all I can do is change the decimal point position to alter the scale. I am unable to see number "2" on any scale setting. The only reasonable readings I get is when I use mV scale.

I do not see 1 - but I do see 000 when leads are not touching..

Seabug - What do I ask for when I want a load cell test?

Splash

[driveon]

Hi Splash, as both Seabug and I have suggested, take your battery and boat to an auto elecs and they will sort it out in minutes.

There are too many possibilities as to what is causing the low battery and as you really don’t have the experience needed to use the multi meter in this situation, you may end up costing yourself more money than is really needed if you misdiagnose the problem.

Take it too an expert and even if you only get the load test ( which should be free ) you will at least have a known starting point.

Right now you are just flying in the dark.

Cheers and best of luck.

[Splash]

Thansk SBug.

I think it's called "PISSING IN THE WIND....".

Do i need to take my whoel rig to get a load test or just my battery?

Besides, how woudl I know if the auto electrician is telling the truth and not rippin gme off? We don't have many choices up in Black Land...:'(

Cheers!

[seabug]

Thansk SBug.


Besides, how woudl I know if the auto electrician is telling the truth and not rippin gme off? We don't have many choices up in Black Land...:'(

Cheers!

Sorry Splash
But I have just decided that you are not worth helping
Regards
seabug

[finga]

We all need a little faith in our fellow man :)
Gees that sounds a iddy bitty congregational. Sorry about that :-[

Did you actually check the voltage on the battery when the motors going??
I had a quick swizz through the pages but didn't see anything.
But if that's around the 13.8 (give or take a bit) then just take the battery to the auto guy.
You should see the result on the screen like him and if it's a dud......
It's a new one so it'll be under warantee.

There's a very good chance the rectifier/reg. is okky dooky if the taco needle moves when you start and rev. the outboard.

[Splash]

SRAT, Seabug and Finga.

The FLUKE Multimeter I am using does not have any option to select 2000K. I believe I have used the multimeter correctly. Those mV readings seem accuate to me.

Interested to hear what SRAt has to say on these new mV readings..

Have a great day team!

Spalsh

[station-rat]

Splash
What ohms Ω settings do you have on that multimeter?
Do you have a diode test setting?

[driveon]

Hi finga, 13.8 is actually the lower limit at which a battery can be fully charged but as Splash posted he was only getting 12.97 with the motor running, so he has a serious system fault.

Whether this low voltage is caused by a faulty battery and the alternator is being loaded beyond what it can produce, thus the low voltage reading or if it’s because alternator itself is the problem can’t be easily determined while he uses the existing battery ( whether it’s good or not ).

Splash, if your so convinced an auto elec will rip you off, try removing your boat’s battery and substitute it with the one out of your vehicle, if you still have the same voltage readings then it’s safe to say the alternator is in need of repairs but if the voltage is 13.8 or above, then the problem is most likely your battery.

A little warning, do not swap batteries while the motor is running, that is a sure fire way to really stuff the alternator.

[finga]

Have a gander here splash
http://www.themarinedoctor.com/cgi-bin//YaBB.pl?num=1191470277

Personally I think your going way too deep into multi-meter readings.
You could get yourself into more strife then Speed Gordon could handle.

If the battery terminal voltage is around the 13.8V-14.4 (give or take a little) when the motor is revving a bit (around 1000-1200) then it's charging. No more to look at from the motor side of things. (has this been done yet??

If there's no appreciable current drain at the battery when the motor is off then it's not the boat wiring (a few mA up to say 100 is fine). In this case there's no problem.

If that fails to find the discharging battery then charge up and leave on the bench connected to didly squat. Take a voltage reading after it's been off the charger for about 6 hours.
Leave it alone for 3 or 4 days and take another voltage reading.
If this varies by more then 1/4 volt get the battery tested.

Any more then that I'd recommend see the boat doctor because you can really stuff things up very easily.

[finga]

Hi finga, 13.8 is actually the lower limit at which a battery can be fully charged but as Splash posted he was only getting 12.97 with the motor running, so he has a serious system fault.
Goodo, thanks matey

Whether this low voltage is caused by a faulty battery and the alternator is being loaded beyond what it can produce, thus the low voltage reading or if it’s because alternator itself is the problem can’t be easily determined while he uses the existing battery ( whether it’s good or not ).
A clip on ammeter would be handy here

Splash, if your so convinced an auto elec will rip you off, try removing your boat’s battery and substitute it with the one out of your vehicle, if you still have the same voltage readings then it’s safe to say the alternator is in need of repairs but if the voltage is 13.8 or above, then the problem is most likely your battery.
A clip on ammeter would be handy here

A little warning, do not swap batteries while the motor is running, that is a sure fire way to really stuff the alternator.



I have to learn to type faster.
I didn't see this post before a posted mine above :-/

[Splash]

Thansk guys - maybe I was being a bit harsh on auto-elec - apologies for those I have offended. I still have faith :-)

I'm at work now and have just returend the FLUKE to it's owner and he tells me I should of had the settign on the diode setting and not V setting. I was usign V setting all along.

Yes SRAT the FLUKE does have that diode symbol on it.

SPlash

[station-rat]

Finga
6 simple tests with the multi meter and he can test the whole unregulated charging system ( stator and rectifier) These unregulated charging systems, battery voltage has a lot to do with the size and type of battery. I have just been through the exact same thing before I fitted a regulator
Station-rat

[Splash]

DO I need to re-test whilst on diode setting?

[station-rat]

The rectifier--- Yes High reading one way,low reading the other = OK
The Stator --- No you need a low ohms setting for this test, and the stator resistance is on the diagram that I e-mailed to you

[Splash]

Tahnsk SRat.

I will hope to re-test in a few days time. I have to ask again for the FLUKE.

Appreciate you all sticking by through all this!

SPlash

[Splash]

OK Boys...

I'M BACK! This time with a FLUKE 787 ProcessMeter Multimeter. A BEAST!

Ok - It has the diode setting and a range of 0 - 40Mohms.

I need to know what scale I use. I cannot obtan the 2000k range as mentioned previously.

SPlash

[Splash]

I can measure in the following ranges:

400 ohms
4k ohms
40 kohms
400 kohms
4 Mohms
40 Mohms

I guess 4M (4000k) is closest to 2000k range...

Which one to choose??

SPlash

[station-rat]

All you are looking for is one high reading and 1 low reading for the rectifier test, so 4K or higher should be fine

[station-rat]

Does it show a 1 without the leads touching, and 000 when the leads touch together, when in the diode test position?

[Splash]

Hi SRAT.

wo leads touching "0.L"
with leads touching "000.0"

I do not knwo what "0.L" means. The 0 is zero btw.

I am still coming to grips how to use this beast.

For the diode setting dial, a picture of a diode is highlighted in blue background.

on the top left portion, a blue button is present which I guess I need to press to select the diode mode - please confirm.

When this blue button in corner is pressed, I am unable to select any range settinng as it appears to lock into a default range setting itself..

SPlash

[Splash]

dunno what i'm doing wrong but i get nothing on either polarity when I use the blue diode setting.

THoughts?

[station-rat]

Just try a high ohms setting and see if you can get it to read

[station-rat]

If you can't drive the multimeter, then take the rectifier to the guy that owns the multimeter and see if he can test it for you.

[Splash]

Ok - here ar ethe results. Not very happy with these results. I am losign faith a bit...

ANyway, here they are:

yellow/grey 0.6213, 1.623
red 0.575, 1.952
red+yellow/grey 0.231, 1.731
red + yellow 0.224, 2.004

Range 4M ohm without diode setting

Thoughts?

[Splash]

If you can't drive the multimeter, then take the rectifier to the guy that owns the multimeter and see if he can test it for you.

How do I take the rectifier out? After you said this, I/m not to sure I am even measuring the rectifier now....:'(

[Splash]

I'm through with this..done...defeated.. :-(

Thanks for all your help SRAT!

[Splash]

how do i remove the flywheel?

[station-rat]

How about taking a picture of what you are testing.
Why do you want to remove the flywheel now.?
What happened to the test for the Yellow and good earth?
They all have a high and low reading =OK

[Splash]

I'll take a picture.

FLywheel needs to be removed to access bolts to remove the rectifier assembly to have tested by someone else.

These readings I gave - they did not have "1" as low reading. That's why I'm not confident in these readings...

These readings are no wehre like the ideal readings you provided..

[Splash]

Forget the picis. The humidity is affecting the lens (moisture on it) and cannot provide a clear image..

Splash

[Splash]

Now, I cannot repeat these readigns as i have tested again..

Here is what I have :

Harness 1 = 2 leads (bright yellow, bright yellow with thin red band)
Harness 2 = 5 leads (red, purple, green, off yellow, off yellow with thin grey band)

This off yellow colour looks like a bland type colour (like a yellow colour but faded alot)...

Splash

[Splash]

Which harness should I be measuring?

[station-rat]

If it is under the flywheel then it is a rectifier/ regulator (water cooled) different kettle of fish

[station-rat]

This is what you have then

[station-rat]

Splash
I don't know how much help this is going to be to you , but here goes anyway.
I suggest you seek the help of a outboard mechanic or auto electrician

[peterbo3]

Splash,
Here is a thought. ;D ;D ;D This is like a do-it-yourself heart transplant. It will not work. ::) ::) Take the motor to an outboard mechanic. You appear to lack the skills to diagnose, let alone rectify, the problem. If you work in Gove, you can afford trained help. ;) Your life is on the line if the motor stuffs up at sea.

[Splash]

This is what you have then


Correct.....................

[Splash]

thanks guys.

I guess we should have all clarified/confirmed what type of rectifier I have before I started trying to diagnose 3 weeks ago.

Yes, I will take donk to boat dealers now so they can play.......

Appreciate your efforts guys!

SPlash

[station-rat]

I think it will be for the best in the long run

[Fed]

1) You have a faulty battery

2) There is something connected that is draining your battery.

3) Your motor isn't charging your battery.

Which is it?

If you can't work that out then you should take it to your dealer for sure.

[Splash]

HI Fed. When I take rig out next, I will measure voltage before and during running to see if the battery is being charged.

THanks for input.

SPlash

[groverwa]

Splash

If you can get hold a Tong meter then you can measure the charge current with the motor running

The voltage measured across the battery may give a false indication as to the actual charging of the battery - our nissan pulsar had a problem that when it was run over a long distance the battery went flat and the computer shut down. The autosparky told us that nothing was wrong as the voltage was 14.4v at revs. I asked him to try and measure the charge current using tongs but he did not have one and laughed at my suggestion. I did not have a tong meter myself and with over 33 years working for Telstra on just about anything they had I do know a bit about power problems - been out 9 years now

As it turned out the regulator was doing strange things - changed the alternator and all ok - cheaper to get a new alternator than a new regulator and get it fitted

Mike

[Splash]

Thanks GroverWA.

What is a tong meter? (is this not an ammeter renamed?)

BTW all, I have jsut re-cahred my battery - 14.04V.

I reconnected the termial lead and will let sit for 2 days.

I will then measure volts again and see what dissiaption I get..

SPLash

[station-rat]

2days I would guess 12.44 volts

[Splash]

Thansk SRAT.

Woudl this be considered a normal dissipation rate?

Splash

[station-rat]

14.04 volts is the surface charge from charging
This would normally drop to less than 13.00 volts within hours of finishing charging. 12.5 volts within 24 hours assuming that the battery is 100% charged.
Did you check it with a hydrometer?.The Johnson regulators draw a small amount of power to run the regulator (engine not running ), so I was just guestimating at the voltage when you test it after 2 days

[Splash]

Thansk SRAT - No hydrometer was used - just multimeter.

Cheers

[groverwa]

Slash

A tong meter is a meter that clamps over a conductor and measures current

It can have multimeter functions as well - see attachment

Mike

[Splash]

Guys - I have just been told that 14.4V reading on the battery is too high and most likley over charged which will damage the battery. True?

I will check to see if my charger is regulated.

I am also able to obtain a tong meter for weekend.

SPlash

[station-rat]

Splash
14.5V should be the maxium while charging
Mate, have you got one of them "Calcium" batteries( Low Maintance or Maintance Free) in your boat
Calcium batteries have a higher internal resistance than normal lead acid battery
Charging current rises higher to overcome the internal resistance

[Simmo2]

130 posts....
2 weeks....
And still NO progress!!
Splash! Mate! Take the whole bloody boat to an auto elec, pay up the bucks and go fishing knowing that things are all OK!!

[driveon]

Guys - I have just been told that 14.4V reading on the battery is too high and most likley over charged which will damage the battery. True?
SPlash

Splash, I don’t know where your getting some of your info from but to have 14.4 volts at the battery, while the motor is running, is a perfect charging voltage as it’s the maximum that an AGM type battery can be safely charged at and as both standard flooded wet cell and sealed maintenance free batteries can safely take a maximum charge voltage of 14.7, again, that voltage is perfect.

[Splash]

THanks boys.

Yes, I do beleive I have the maintenance free batteries..

SPlash

[station-rat]

Splash
14.4v after you have charged it is no great surprise

[Splash]

14.04 volts is the surface charge from charging
This would normally drop to less than 13.00 volts within hours of finishing charging. 12.5 volts within 24 hours assuming that the battery is 100% charged.
Did you check it with a hydrometer?.The Johnson regulators draw a small amount of power to run the regulator (engine not running ), so I was just guestimating at the voltage when you test it after 2 days

Hello team - did u all miss me?;D

Ok - On 10/02/08, I fully charged my battery and purposelfy left terminals/cables on battery - all wired up - measured 14.04V.

Today is 22/02/08, I now measure 12.98V. I have not run motor in this timeframe.

How has this battery performed and does this slight drop in voltage (but end result still ok) indicate that my electics are all ok?

I have the tong meter with me and the multimeter and hope to "make a few waves" this weekend.


SPlash

[driveon]

Hi Splash, at 12.98 volts after 12 days, your battery is not only fully charged, it is holding it’s charge.

Cheers

[Splash]

Splash

If you can get hold a Tong meter then you can measure the charge current with the motor running

The voltage measured across the battery may give a false indication as to the actual charging of the battery - our nissan pulsar had a problem that when it was run over a long distance the battery went flat and the computer shut down. The autosparky told us that nothing was wrong as the voltage was 14.4v at revs. I asked him to try and measure the charge current using tongs but he did not have one and laughed at my suggestion. I did not have a tong meter myself and with over 33 years working for Telstra on just about anything they had I do know a bit about power problems - been out 9 years now

As it turned out the regulator was doing strange things - changed the alternator and all ok - cheaper to get a new alternator than a new regulator and get it fitted

Mike

Grover - I now have a tong meter at hand this weekend.

Best tips on how to use this thing?

Do I simply surround one cable ?

Does it matter which cable I am measring?

What range shoudl I have the multimeter on when doing this test? (A, mA, V or mV)?

Splash

[Splash]

OK Team,

Here is the latest update..

Used only a multimeter (and no tong meter) today whilst out in the BIG BLUE...

Battery Voltage whilst engine not running - 13.1V.

Battery Voltage whilst engine IS running - 15.46V.

This increase in voltage I hope implies that my battery is being charge whilst motor is running...

Thoughts?

SPlash

[station-rat]

Hi Splash
Yes it is charging, but 15.46 is a little high for a regulated system if the readings are accurate

[groverwa]

Splash

!5.46v is the voltage across the battery because this is the voltage coming from your alternator - seems a bit high but that might be for the breed of motor - and with the motor not running the 13.1v sounds good

"at 12.98 volts after 12 days, your battery is not only fully charged, it is holding it’s charge" is an indication that you have a good battery but for peace of mind take it to a battery dealer and get it tested. Ask the dealer if this high voltage will damage your battery also

I have a large spare good battery that, when not in the boat as a spare, goes bush with me in the ute as diesil powered utes are just as hard to push start as boats in the water. Both the boat battry and the spare get a charge every 2 weeks whether they need it or not

[Splash]

Thanks boys.

[driveon]

Hi Splash, mate I think there is something seriously wrong with your motor’s voltage regulator because you are getting too many different reading and a voltage of 15.46 will eventually cook just about every type of automotive ( marine ) battery made, with the exception of some high end AGMs.

Wet cell batteries can only tolerate this high voltage for a short period of time, around 30 minutes max before the battery boils itself dry and thus, destroys the battery.

The maximum voltage for both gel and most AGMs is just 14.4, voltages above this will permanently damage or totally destroy these types of batteries in a very short time.

Seriously Splash, it’s time to get your system check by a professional.

[northernblue]

Why would he start now????

[Splash]

Thanks guys.

Will do.

Splash