ACA C-Tick Approval of VHF Radios

[Splash]

Hi Team.

Are all ICOM VHF radios imported (when you guys purchase from USA) from USA ACA C-Tick compliant?

Here is some info I have gained:

ACA refers to Australian Commumications Authority.

The C-Tick label is used to indicate compliance with the ACA's electromagnetic compatibility (EMC) and radiocommunications regulatory arrangements. It also establishes a traceable link between the product and the manufacturer (or importer or agent) responsible for compliance and for placing it onto the Australia-New Zealand market.

Australian legislation states it is illegal to operate radio communication equipment which do not have a C-tick label on the unit (non-compliant).

Australian law states that the consequences of operating non-compliant radio communication equipment in Australia will result in 10 years prison, $10,000 fine and loss of equipment.

Some links of interest:
http://www.acma.gov.au/WEB/STANDARD/pc=PC_310704 (http://www.acma.gov.au/WEB/STANDARD/pc=PC_310704)
http://legislation.gov.au/ComLaw/Legislation/LegislativeInstrumentCompilation1.nsf/bodylodgmentattachments/90B3C1AFE3EF5569CA257060000BE9F7?OpenDocument (http://legislation.gov.au/ComLaw/Legislation/LegislativeInstrumentCompilation1.nsf/bodylodgmentattachments/90B3C1AFE3EF5569CA257060000BE9F7?OpenDocument)

Does anyone know of instances when a user has been prosecuted?

Splash

[DR]

this was done to death a year or so back. if you are a reseller you will say that you HAVE to have the C tick. it's a bit of a grey area as the radios are the same & the importers have had them tested & have the ability to apply the c tick. you import the exact same radio, if you put it in your boat no one will know if it's ticked or not, as i said, a grey area, & from my enquiries if it's for personal use you can import one... you can't sell it as you can't c tick it.
the best thing to do is get in touch with the relevant gov authorities & ask them, as you will get seven different opinions on here & all will tell you they are right,,, remember the game 'chinese whispers'

[Splash]

Thanks DR.

Your feedback is great. I woudl alsa like to chase other additional comments from others who may have an opinion as well.

I am wanting to import a unit for personal use only and do not intend to re-sell item.

I have since gone back and read the stuff about a year ago..intersting reading.

It seems (as you say), consensus has not really been achieved with a firm directive on this one.

Here are some quotes I have found on this forum:

NARO - Northern Australia Regional Office (enforces rules of ACMA)
(Person 1)
"If the unit was imported not for supply, but purely for your own personal use, this may circumvent the Radiocommunications Devices (Compliance Labelling) Notice 2003.

The "Radiocommunications (Maritime Ship Station - 27 MHz and VHF) Class Licence 2001" requires that devices operated under that class licence comply with any standard applicable to the device on it's compliance day. (Day it was imported) .... it is ok for personal use.."

NARO (Person 2)
you can pick another section .....The problem however is that you could not legally operate the device in Australia. You would be in breach of sections 46 and 47 of the "Radiocommunications Act 1992"

"Under NO circumstances at all can a non C-Tick Approved VHF radio be used in Australia,this includes one offs. This is due to the safety of life issue to take into account when using VHF."

AUSFISH MEMBER(S)
"....my understanding was if the item is purchased over the internet it will arrive in oz via a mail service and automatically be subject to customs entry reqs and hence be c-ticked..."


NARO (Person 1)
"....if the item is under $1000 value it comes straight thru, if over duty and gst apply, so any vhf regardless of value, or gps or sounder, if it comes thru the mail it will have c-tick for insurance cover...."

"Your second email advised that the VHF marine radio you intend to import is for your own personal use, therefore in this circumstance you would be outside the scope of the C-Tick regulatory requirements...."

If a VHF marine radio is found to be in use and it does not comply with the Class Licence the user may be in breach of sections of the Radiocommunications Act 1992.


QUESTIONS:
What is the current consensus on:
Do all VHF radios under $1000 have C-tick approval (if come thru mail)?
Do I need C-Tick compliance for personal use of VHF marine radio?
Do all ICOM radios from USA have C-tick compliance?

Splash

[TheRealAndy]

Firstly, C-Tick compliance is purely related to unwanted electromagnetic emissions. For example, when you are on one channel, your radio does cause interference with the next channel. It also means that it wont intefere with other stuff, such as AM radio's or 27Mhz or your sounder. It by no means takes into any account, the saftey issues related to the radio. There is nothing that covers this.



As for being prosecuted? Well the australian regulators are a joke at the best of time. They can barely answer you questions let alone string together a legal case. 90% of the shit that comes from china these days has fake c-tick labels, and if you report it they just say 'oh well'. When you have to get stuff certifed, it is done by a lab outside of the ACMA and the ACMA are only interested when they get your money.

Years ago, I made a complaint to them about some inteference i was getting on a private radio frequency that company i was woking for pay tens of thousands for and they just shrugged their shoulders. If they wont follow up issues for a large company that pays them thousands, there is no way they are going to single out one consumer for importing a radio that is not approved. I doubt any that works for customs would even know what c-tick was anyway.

[Splash]

Thanks Andy.

Startling Post!!

What do others think?

Splash

[peterbo3]

Splash,
Don't sweat the small stuff. I have imported thousands of dollars worth of 12V electronics for boats with no dramas. Just get the radio you want & use it.

[mik01]

Splash,
Don't sweat the small stuff. I have imported thousands of dollars worth of 12V electronics for boats with no dramas. Just get the radio you want & use it.

agree.

importing a reputable brand that is obviously compliant to be used on our network for personal use is a no brainer.

as far as I'm aware - the Icom unit does not undergo any changes from when its manufactured to when you open the box here in Aus. if it did, Icom would be able to justify why we pay such a huge price for these units locally.

sadly - they can't

[Splash]

Would there be any ICOM units sold in USA that woudl have it's frequency range non-compatible to Australia's frequency range (transmitting and receiving)?

SPlash

[peterbo3]

Splash,
They all work fine here. They will have weather channels & the like which are US specific but that does not interfere with their performance. All the VHF channels we use here are available.

[Simmo2]

I think that the C-tick relates to whether or not the radio complies with the class licence issued for VHF Marine radio's here in Oz. The Class licence 'governs' emission modes, power outputs and frequency.

My radio has an INT or US setting, no doubt changing channel parameters...I think they are pretty close tho!
OH, and WX wont work here!

[oldboot]

I think you will find that "C Tick" has absolutely nothing to do with the radios transmission performance...."C Tick" relates to electronics, any electronics ability to contain and not radiate inapropriate electromagnetic noise.

There are specific exemptions for all sorts of things... radio transmitters among them......They may now be Calling 'C tick" to be covering the non transmitting electronics .....But I can not be sure of that.

What I do know for sure is that there is a specific approval apart from "C Tick" that definitely applied to all radio transmitting equipment... it will typicaly be refered to as an "ACMA approval" and it should be on a permamnetly fixed label.

Nope there is no way arround it... either it is or it sn't... if it isn't... you cant use it.

So buying an overseas marine radio that does not have an "ACMA approval notice" is not a goer.

cheers

[subzero]

Overseas Marine VHF Radios are used here all the time.

Any ship that sails from any of the United States of America will arrive here with a VHF radio purchased in the states usually supplementary to a MF/HF Radio or similar.

This is all perfectly legal. One of the reasons for the need to hold SOME FORM of internationally accredited certification is because of the fact that vessels may not stay put in their country of origin and indeed travel overseas and be used anywhere in the world. Hence the setting for International, USA or to a lesser extent Can for Canada.

For larger ships, VHF is an ideal means of communicating short range with shore and the harbor master when berthing in particular.

I would not personally have any hesitation in purchasing overseas if the supplier was reputable and the price was to good to shy away from.
I ALWAYS support local if It is not going to cost me to much more than the cost overseas but sadly this is not often the case..... DON'T BUY AN EPIRB FROM OVERSEAS THOUGH!!!!!! (Their unique identifier will start with the country of sales number and AMSA wont allow you to register it here in Australia

Just my opinion's.... Cheers Lloyd

[Splash]

Thansk guys.

ANyone know if the ICOM M504 (and not M505) has ACMA approval?

Llyod - How do I obtain my VHF operating license whilst living and boating in Arnhem Land, NT?

Splash

[subzero]

Gidday Splash, go to this post where I answered your question the other day.
http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/showthread.php?p=748986#post748986

Cheers Lloyd

[mik01]

sorry Oldboot - you are not entirely correct.
this seems to be a myth perpetuated by suppliers and manufacturers that want us to buy at inflated, local prices.

check out this old ausfish thread, and particularly this -

Heath
28-11-2005, 08:02 PM
To add to this string is the following

link:http://www.accesscomms.com.au/comply.htm

In summary, all radiocommuncation equipment, ie gps and sounders, require CTICK approval for legal use in Australia.

We are not bagging the US dealers but everyone who brings illegal non-CTICK approved product into Australia should be aware that the unit may be withheld and a fine incurred.

Circumventing import duties and GST is also high on customs agenda in today's world.

Also be aware that the Australian agents/dealers read these boards and are moving as quickly as possible to get customs on the job.

By all means save money where you can but by supporting your local dealer our advice and service will be here in the future.

We advise researching import procedures carefully before handing over your hard earned cash to a faceless company overseas.

Sundown Marine.



Not that I doubted you Sundown Marine, but that info didn't sit well with me. So I fired off an email to the ACMA & asked the question about CTICK approval for items imported for personal use.
Their reply below.

Hello Heath

The EMC regulations apply to "suppliers" of products to the Australia market. If the VHF marine radio is a 'one off' for your own personal use, you are not required to comply with the EMC regulations.

However, just for your information, if the device was able to connect to the public telephone network, for example a modem in a laptop it would need to comply with Australian standards even if it was a 'one off'.

Thank you for your inquiry. Please do not hesitate to contact me again if you require further clarification.

Regards
Joanne van Uden
Compliance Officer
Australian Communications and Media Authority



the key here Splash is that Icom manufacture accredited vhf marine radios that are AS/NZS compliant. the supplier must ensure the goods they are importing are c-tick compliant, however you and I do not as we are not engaged in commercial practices.
Its just another tax and regulatory requirement on electronic importers which is another reason why we pay ridiculous prices for all electronic devices.
I could find no reference to c-tick or a-tick on the Icom websites, which proves it does not sit with the manufacturer - they make standards compliant products as I stated above.
Plus, Aus vhf frequencies are international standard and therefore the INT function on the Icom models matches our frequencies. Its only USA and Canada I believe that have different frequencies for vhf operation.

don't sweat it mate - you are fine. think about it - if you went to japan and bought a new camcorder and brought it home are you a criminal? if you went o/s and bought a nokia mobile and it was compatible with our network, would some argue that Nokia wasn't c-tick compliant?

[Simmo2]

This from the ACMA fact sheets.
http://www.acma.gov.au/WEB/STANDARD/pc=PC_1687

Radiocommunications Equipment

The use of non-standard radiocommunications equipment including, but not limited to, cordless phones, land mobile transceivers, CB radios and a range of low power appliances may cause costly interference. Some of the services which may be affected by interference are cellular (mobile) phone services, broadcast radio and television, and two-way radio services, including emergency services.
The use and (sometimes) possession of radiocommunications equipment not specifically designed to comply with Australian standards may be illegal. There are severe penalties for operation, possession for the purpose of operation and supply of radiocommunications equipment that does not comply with applicable Australian standards.
It is illegal to operate any radio transmitter in Australia unless the operation of that transmitter is authorised by a licence issued by ACMA.
Low power transmitters are generally covered by an ACMA radiocommunications class licence. Spectrum usage and equipment standards vary around the world, and it can be difficult to ensure that equipment purchased overseas complies with an ACMA class licence. The operation of most base stations, mobile and handheld transmitters can only be authorised by an apparatus licence, which incurs additional costs.
Two-way base, mobile and handheld equipment other than that used in the amateur service usually requires the assignment of individual operating frequencies. It is most unlikely that this type of equipment, which may be authorised for use in other countries, could be authorised for use in Australia without at least requiring a frequency change, and in many instances cannot be operated at all. As a result, it is generally impractical to bring such equipment into Australia.
As the Australian market for radiocommunications equipment is relatively small compared to the European, US and Asian markets, all of which have different equipment standards and frequency usage regimes, it is not surprising that the vast majority of equipment for sale overseas is unsuitable for use in Australia. The process for having a single piece of radiocommunications equipment tested for compliance to Australian standards is time consuming and expensive. It is generally uneconomic for one-off imports to be tested for compliance.
Radiocommunications equipment approved for use in Australia has the C-Tick label, showing that it meets mandatory technical standards set by ACMA. The C-Tick mark looks like:

http://www.acma.gov.au/webwr/telcomm/stds/compliance_marks/c-tick01.jpg

[Splash]

Thanks boys!

You all get the TICK of approval!:D

Splash

[mik01]

yep so all Icom radios are compliant to Aus standards for telecommunication devices and the company itself and its suppliers are c-tick compliant. therefore, the units, whether bought o/s or locally, are ALL the same and therefore compliant for use within Australia.

as mentioned above, it is highly expensive for a company to go through the process of proving their goods are c-tick compliant but that doesn't mean every unit has to be tested and a fee paid for every unit. of course, dealing with a reputable company which is proven compliant is the best course of action.

I see nothing in the above fact sheet, or anywhere on the net that proves otherwise.

[Splash]

Thansk Mik01.

If this is so, would you know why no Austrlian dealers sell the ICOM M504 unit and no American dealers sell the M505 unit?

Basically same unit with some very subtle differences in spec.


Splash

[mik01]

Thansk Mik01.

If this is so, would you know why no Austrlian dealers sell the ICOM M504 unit and no American dealers sell the M505 unit?

Basically same unit with some very subtle differences in spec.


Splash

without being a technical electronics guru, the 505 seems to be tailored towards making the most of the features of the US network - ie more defined frequency range, extra NMEA format etc
interestingly, both have INT formats therefore will both work in Australia.

[TheRealAndy]

Just as a side note, i thought marine frequencies were standard across the world. I think its like aviation, all the frequencies and navigation aids are international, one of the very few places where everything is the same inlcuding measurements! That way if you take off from america, and sail to australia, all your saftey gear will work ok.

[TheRealAndy]

Forgot to add, the US and INT switches, from memory, in the US you are not allowed to transmit on certain marine frequencies, so I assume that the switch prevents you from doing so. They INT switch will allow you to transmit on all frequencies once in internation waters. All this is clearly spelled out in some international standard of which the name escapes me.

[Simmo2]

The table wont post here correctly, but take a look at:
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/marcomms/apps18.htm

[Splash]

yep so all Icom radios are compliant to Aus standards for telecommunication devices and the company itself and its suppliers are c-tick compliant. therefore, the units, whether bought o/s or locally, are ALL the same and therefore compliant for use within Australia.

as mentioned above, it is highly expensive for a company to go through the process of proving their goods are c-tick compliant but that doesn't mean every unit has to be tested and a fee paid for every unit. of course, dealing with a reputable company which is proven compliant is the best course of action.

I see nothing in the above fact sheet, or anywhere on the net that proves otherwise.


Hi Mik01.

Here is an email from Pat (FishOnMarine) I received yesterday.

".....................I spoke with ICOM America and they said they had never heard of C-Tick and their only concern is their units are FCC approved which is a Federal US approval, so no there is no C-Tick approval. Very interesting information. First time I have seen anything in writing. I have never heard of anyone having issues. My guess it is one of those laws that is virtually impossible to enforce but who knows?"



Q1 - How confident are you with all ICOM radios being compliant for Australia?

Q2 - If FishOnMarine is a supplier of ICOM units, why is he not C-tick compliant then?


Splash

[oddbudman]

Splash,

Why are you so concerned about C-tick compliance with the imported radio?

Does FishOnMarine supply out of the US or Australia?

oddbudman

[mik01]

Hi Mik01.

Here is an email from Pat (FishOnMarine) I received yesterday.

".....................I spoke with ICOM America and they said they had never heard of C-Tick and their only concern is their units are FCC approved which is a Federal US approval, so no there is no C-Tick approval. Very interesting information. First time I have seen anything in writing. I have never heard of anyone having issues. My guess it is one of those laws that is virtually impossible to enforce but who knows?"



Q1 - How confident are you with all ICOM radios being compliant for Australia?

Q2 - If FishOnMarine is a supplier of ICOM units, why is he not C-tick compliant then?


Splash



Splash.... maaaate....
you're missing the point!!!!!

Australia operates its vhf frequencies according to an international standard. We don't have our own standard, nor do we have unique frequencies that no other country uses such as the USA. the units are manufactured in Japan to accommodate such international standards.

if the Icom units were not compliant, then we would have to have specifically made units to suit Australia which would mean we have our own unique vhf operating standard - which we don't. Icom, nor any other manufacturer on the planet, has to specially create a vhf unit just for the Australian market.

your Icom unit, once set to INT mode, will work fine here.

I will not speak for Fishon, out of respect for Pat and the need for this thread to die quickly. You can ask Pat that very question should you feel the need.

One would suspect that c-tick is only required if you are located in Australia and a distributor of electronic equipment. c-tick is an Australian regulation which possibly Icom America have never heard of because they don't manufacture the goods nor distribute to Australia - this is because Icom is Japanese based.

I'm sure if you have any further concerns re Icom's compatibility with the Australian network, you can call Icom Australia directly and they can attest to their compliance with c-tick and the like.

perhaps you might be best to cancel your order with Fishon given you have no confidence in the advice given and puchase directly through Icom Australia and one of their many suppliers? That way, you will not have any fears of persecution from the relevant Australian authorities for your potentially, allegedly, illegal activities while operating such a device.

[Splash]

No probs Mik01 -

Consider thread now dead.

I have thrashed it out enough.....probably too much.

Appreciate your valued input people - has been an interesting read...

Splash

[oldboot]

Just an interesting point.

From the text of the ACMA quote It appears that they have extended the "C Tick" sceme to include radio transmitting aparatus.....the original draft that I read specificlay excluded tansmitting aparatus from the "C tick" sceme and left in place a seperate approvals sceme.


Interesting and logical.

In that case all obligation is placed on the supplier at whatever stage they be.
It is illegal to supply ( import, wholesale, retail) within australia non labeled devices.

excuse me but this is interesting and has far reaching implications.

So if you import an item yourself that isnt labeled and it is found to be radiating spurious....you can be held completely responsible.

If on the other hand it is localy supplied and "C tick" labeled there is very strong responsibility on the supplier.

In the past the user was held 100% responsible for any spurious radiation......It now appears that the supplier is now held at least partly responsible.

I know to many this might seem.... uninteresting but...

This represents a major legal change, radio transmitters now ( it seems) are no longer an item to be operated by technical people but an appliance to be used by consumers.

In my mind there was never a question that the item would work....of course t would.

cheers

[Splash]

Thanks Oldboot.

I too never doubted the item would not work in Oz.

Just curious about what legislation existed and how it was interpreted by a large cross-section of key stakeholders/end users.

Splash

[oldboot]

It is interesting to see what is happening with lots of laws and legselation.

Many times it seems that you are being allowed to do things.......yeh mate you can do that quite legaly...... but if things go wrong.........holy snapping duck $#@t look out.... its all your problem and its all your fault and you will pay.

But we have been seeing the " appliancisisng" of radio equipment for some time.

At one time you had to have a radio officer on a ship & he was a substancialy qualified man ( my fatherinlaw was one) now any grubby seaman with a simple radio ticket is all that is required.

I could go & do LLoyds 1 day course & legaly use the radio on a liner or tanker.

There had to be some slack cut because of the large number of small vessels comming into australian waters with overseas radios on board.

cheers

[finga]

If the truth be known...what are the chances of someone looking at Splashes radio and saying "where's the tick matey??"
Hell they don't check for radio licenses your supposed to have (and that's in SE QLD where all the boats with radios are apparently with all the crappy banter on it 24hrs a day) let alone checking the tick that's supposed to on it.
If they ever check your license they might have a glance and they'll see ICOM and and will in all probability won't ask anymore.

There would be a list somewhere of compliant radios.
Check yours against it matey.
It'll be on the list and if (gees that's a big if) they ask tell them the tick fell off.
ICOM are well respected around the world.
There would be a greater possibility that the radio would not comply to the US standards before not complying to ours. They're funny like that.
Remember where you are matey.
In the middle of nowhere.
Your lucky to have a copper let alone a guy (or sheila) to check ticks on radios.

Mik01 and Lloyd have spoken words of wisdom :)

[Splash]

Thank you Finga.

[Splash]

http://www.vk3ajj.com/documents/parallel_importing.html

FWIW.....................

[Simmo2]

Hehe, me ol mate Paul!
He is right, but you should take the time to read the small print at the bottom of the page!

[oldboot]

Remember that, the document supporting "non authorised importers" is written by one.
While it does make several valid points.
A number of the points are spurious.
Without the extra margin, a local importer can not support the stocking, waranty service and spare parts support that are expected.

also most of the non authorised importers do not carry a full range of product and accessories, they will only stock the most popular items.

thus paralal importing of product reduces the available range of product and the support for that product by forcing the authorised importers to use similar stocking practices to the unofficial channels.

Paralel importing reduces choice and reduces after sales service.

There has to be a some sort of middle road and there has to be some fundamental changes to how the whole thing is structured.
Unfortunatly I do not think those changes will be deliberate and well considered and are most unlikly to have the customer as a priority consideration.

cheers

[Splash]

PHEW!..........