Whats NEW,Anyone for an AIRPOWERED OUTBOARD

[seabug]

http://www.mdi.lu/images/moteur1.jpg
Type 41 engineCompressed Air Engineshttp://www.mdi.lu/images/dots.gif
More than ten years of research and development in the field of Compressed Air Technology (CAT) has yielded CATs Type-41 engines of two categories. The Mono-Energy engines, which can drive a vehicle “completely clean” with “zero pollution”, operating in urban areas using compressed air only. Whereas, the Dual-Energy engines, using supplementary energy source of minimum quantity of either fossil fuels (petrol, diesel or LPG) or biofuels (vegetable oil, alcohol, biodiesel or even gas), producing ultra-low level of pollution, in non-urban or rural areas, require :

- Less than 2 litres per 100 kilometres (over 140 miles per gallon) in non-urban areas.
- Zero Nitrogen Oxides.
- Three to 4000 times less un-burnt hydrocarbon than a conventional car engine.
- Three times less Carbon Dioxide emission than a conventional car engine of same power.

Based on this new Technology, MDI is now in the process of developing a “thermodynamic concept” that will enhance these results even further, over the next ten years, thus initiating a genuine energy revolution.
The MDI Engines are protected by many patents registered worldwide. They consist of an active chamber and are made up of modules of two opposing cylinders. These modules can be coupled to make groups of 4 or 6 cylinders for a wide range of uses from 4 to 75 hp in the following applications :

MDI CityCATs and MiniCATs Clean Cars
The MDI MultiCATs Urban Transport System
Electricity Power Generators and Emergency Generators
Tow Tractors, Pallet Trucks and Hoists
Agricultural Tractors
Outboard Motors
Light Aircraft Engines and APU units
MDI also intends to continue developing high-power engines (200 hp and above) for buses and trucks.


Regards
seabug

[tunaticer]

Whats the weight factor for something around the 75hp mark??

Jack.

[seabug]

Whats the weight factor for something around the 75hp mark??

Jack.

Hi Jack
Their website is here,I do not have an answer for you
Regards
seabug
http://www.mdi.lu/eng/affiche_eng.php?page=citycats

They have signed a licence with TATA of India

http://tyler.blogware.com/_images/page.gif (http://tyler.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2008/1/16/3468532.html) Air Car may fly in India, but will idea float in North America?
by Tyler (javascript:openWindow('http://tyler.blogware.com/blog/cmd=view_user/username=tylerh', 'info', 450, 600);) on Wed 16 Jan 2008 08:53 AM EST
I've got a story at Technology Review (www.technologyreview.com (http://www.technologyreview.com/)) that looks at a French-designed compressed-air car and a deal with India's Tata Motors that could see commercial production beginning this year in France and India. Personally, I think the concept is quite neat -- particularly when you envision every home having a portable compressed-air station that both fills your urban car and captures heat for your hot water tank. Let's face it, not all of us need highway-speed cars or the range required to drive back and forth from Boston to New York. Most of our driving is local and at speeds under 60 kilometres an hour (assuming we obey speed limits). Motor Development International, based in Nice, France, has a well-engineered Air Car (http://www.theaircar.com/) design that could work in such urban settings, particularly in developing countries such as India. In North America it's a tougher sell, though at least one company (http://www.zeropollutioncars.com/) has signed up to manufacture and distribute the Air Car in the United States. There are many skeptics out there who question the efficiency, speed claims and range claims of MDI's Air Car, but it's an interesting project nonetheless and I hope MDI (http://www.mdi.lu/) makes some meaningful inroads.

[FNQCairns]

So how does this work? Has it got a modest fossil fuel engine at low rpm constantly running that supplies a compressed air tank that is used to supply the air motor that propels the car??

cheers fnq

[seabug]

So how does this work? Has it got a modest fossil fuel engine at low rpm constantly running that supplies a compressed air tank that is used to supply the air motor that propels the car??

cheers fnq

Hi fnrq
It has a dual skin plastics/carbonfibre air tank of 100lt.that is filled to 300 bar
That gives it the 60km city range

http://www.mdi.lu/images/puce_bleu.gif Refilling:
- The car has a built-in on-board system that can be simply plugging into a mains power outlet to refill the tanks with compressed air. The moto-alternator reverses the process which compresses the air and fills up the tanks. The compressed air reserves are thus refilled by using the national power grid. Refilling time for the MiniCATs is about five and a half hours using a 230V outlet. This is the most important advantage of the MDI Technology.
- Compressed Air Storage System is simple and MDI is planning to install a network of such “Filling Stations” where vehicles can be refilled, in three minutes, by connecting the Car Tanks to the outlet from the Storage System.

Regards
seabug

[seabug]

http://www.theaircar.com/howitworks.html

Regards
seabug

[seabug]

5. Marine engines

In a later stage, MDI will undertake the development of boat applications of its engines and generators in order to meet the special demand of the marine industry where they will bring their numerous advantages:
Clean engines
Savings on cost operation
Reserves of air acting as floating reserves
No smell
Possibility to twin engine and generator for sailing boats Regards
seabug

[seabug]

The Tanks

http://www.theaircar.com/tanks.html

Regards
seabug

[Greg P]

Technology is bounding along at amazing rates. The company I work for has been testing fuel cells in our large underground loader range for a few years. There are already boats powered by fuel cell technology so it really wont be that long till we have an outboard running this system.



http://www.fuelcells.org/

[ozbee]

sounds like a lot of hot air where are you going to fill up when out fishing.

[Noelm]

you just use your Scuba tank as an Auxillary! not too sure how this will go, it will take a reasonably large extremely high pressure tank to have the capacity to give any real usuable range, just have a look at air tools running off a Compressor, unless you have a good sized Compressor, a small drill/sander will empty a 40litre tank in a very short while, so you need the tank to be heaps bigger, AND much more pressure, which in itself poses a whole range of impending problems and disasters, BUT lets just keep on hoping.

[seabug]

you just use your Scuba tank as an Auxillary! not too sure how this will go, it will take a reasonably large extremely high pressure tank to have the capacity to give any real usuable range, just have a look at air tools running off a Compressor, unless you have a good sized Compressor, a small drill/sander will empty a 40litre tank in a very short while, so you need the tank to be heaps bigger, AND much more pressure, which in itself poses a whole range of impending problems and disasters, BUT lets just keep on hoping.

Really doubt if your Scuba tank would be any use

Tank is 100lt and filled to 300bar=4351.14 psi
Tanks are rupture tested to 705 bar =10225.179psi.

And they do not explode and do no release sharp particles.

Answers to these and Ozbees question are all in the articles and links above.

Regards
seabug

[Noelm]

Of course there is still the same age old problem that you GET NOTHING FOR NOTHING!! so lets say you need 10HP for 10 mins to compress the air for enough power to propel anything, then you will get less than 10HP for less than 10mins use, as was mentioned way way back by some guy, 'you cannot create energy" that seems like a strange statement, but it is so true, all you can do is change energy from one type to another, BUT, with a resultant loss when you do so! in which case unless we can make a compressor that runs off Solar Panels or Wind, then we cannot make more energy than we use! sounds a bit odd and hard to follow, but it is simple fact of life.

[Noelm]

seabug, I was only being silly!!! (sort of)

[Noelm]

by the way, when they pressure test them, they do not explode becuase they test them with Water pressure, and water being a liquid, does NOT compress, so if the tank is a dud, all it does is split a bit and leak, but if it was Air tested and it failed, it would indeed "blow up"

[seabug]

by the way, when they pressure test them, they do not explode becuase they test them with Water pressure, and water being a liquid, does NOT compress, so if the tank is a dud, all it does is split a bit and leak, but if it was Air tested and it failed, it would indeed "blow up"
If it failed
Blow up NO
Leak yes

It is all explained in the links

As to where the energy come from ,thats in the links too.

I'm outa here.

Regards
seabug

[moater]

as was mentioned way way back by some guy, 'you cannot create energy" that seems like a strange statement, but it is so true, all you can do is change energy from one type to another

Don't wanna be pedantic mate but you can in fact create energy..by one method-nuclear:)

Darren

[Noelm]

yes, that is true, wind, and Solar can be "harnessed" so untill we have a Nuclear powered Compressor, then we still have a problem!

[Noelm]

and of course, Nuclear is STILL converting energy to another type, like it is Heat converted to (say) electricity, so in fact it is NOT created!

[baitwaster]

Absolutely correct Noel.

Energy ( or matter ) cannot be created or destroyed - EVER - only changed.
That is why perpetual motion simply cannot happen

[moater]

The chain reaction creates energery from a small amount of material,rather than burning something or harnessing a natural force such as in hydro.

[Chris Ryan]

well needless to say, changes are a comin! :)

[TonyM]

The compressed air idea sounds (theoretically) like a great idea for run-around cars used for shopping, picking up the kids etc.

Whilst it does need an energy supply (national grid) to compress the air, that at least centralises the problem of supply and demand, hmmm oil companies wouldn't like that, shares in power companies would be allright though ;)

I'm no fan of nuclear, I believe that's just going from one problem to an even worse one (nuclear waste)

wish there were more alternatives. Solar still seems fairly pricey (I got a quote last year), it would be great to see some breakthrough in solar to make it cheaper.

[baitwaster]

The chain reaction creates energery from a small amount of material,rather than burning something or harnessing a natural force such as in hydro.


It does not create energy at all, the energy that is already there in the form of electrons orbiting the nucleus of the atom, is simply released at a (hopefully) controlled rate. - hence the term "atomic energy"

[Noelm]

spot on! as soon as we can "create" energy we are very very rich!! not saying that there will not be something "soon" but at the moment, all these new ideas are just that, ideas, but that's how things happen, small ideas get refined and worked on and we have something viable eventually!

[Noelm]

I still think that maybe we will just see a very major change in our lifestyle first, like as I said way back, going slow in a putt putt, or a small commuter Electric "Bus" that will take us to where our Bikes are parked to complete our ffinal journey ,this is just a "perhaps" of course, I just reckon a change in US (Humans) is coming before a change in technology, maybe!!!!

[PADDLES]

tonym, i used to be 100% opposed to nuclear power but to be honest there are not too many other options for an industrialised country like ours. apparently we've got a few suitable areas for safe? (is it ever) waste disposal and as a country could be seen to be a very responsible global citizen by supplying the world with nuclear energy and then demanding it all back as waste so it could never be turned into weapons and the like. this does of course bring up the theory that certain countries could use our uranium for power and that would then free up there own reserves for weapons but i'm sure there are ways around this.

the way i see it, the world needs a little more time for some brilliant minds to come up with some better forms of alternative energy than the fossil fuel based ones we've already got and nuclear energy can provide that time.

[baitwaster]

At the moment, we need to concentrate on efficiently using what resources we have. From memory, internal combustion engines are only about 35% efficient ( I could be wrong ) but assuming that is even close, it does leave a lot of room for improvement.

I really like the idea of this air-powered gear, providing the air can be compressed in an efficient manner, and that holding tanks are all well and truly over-engineered, which they are by the figures quoted earlier in this thread.

I don't have a problem with nuclear energy, a lot of energy can be provided with a very small amount of waste compared to coal etc. But would the exponential population growth we are undergoing at the moment inevitably lead to an exponential growth in the use of Uranium, and a similar growth in the amount of waste produced?

With the amount of waste produced at the moment, storage of waste isn't really a huge drama, only problem is keeping waste separated from the baddies. But what about when we are consumng 100 times the amount we do now, and therefore need to store 100 times the amount of waste?

[TonyM]

I do see that side of the argument Paddles, although I'd rather see us try something a little less radical before resorting to something proven to be problematical in a very scary way.

In reality I imagine that it will be too little is done to late and nuclear will probably be the only option left (i.e. according to the consultants the govt pays to tell them that) - it's just too easy an option for them at the end of the day.

I like NoelM's suggestion where we adjust our lifestyles a little to conserve the amount of energy we use.

I don't know how well that would work as a lot of people would object to the inconvenience and wouldn't do it unless legislated. Would take some gutsie politicians to pull that off!

I allready am doing my bit because I strive to conserve how much energy I use but my missus just says I'm lazy! ;D

[Noelm]

I can see that most of the population (me included) will be plenty p!ssed off putting about at 5 knots, or comuting on an Electric Bus or something like that, but hey, it MAY come to that IF we simply run out of oil, which is a very real possibility in our lifetime!! when it is GONE then we have only a couple of options, like walk, Government transport (the electrc bus) Nuclear power of some sort in our everyday transport, who knows what is on the horizon, I hope that a compressed air Engine is practical, BUT I still think it will need a lot of intensive refinement to be a goer!!! just my feeble thoughts on it all of course.

[seabug]

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Regards
seabug

[wiz]

I think the answer lies with magnetism, ways that have not been explored yet.

[Jabba_]

Of course there is still the same age old problem that you GET NOTHING FOR NOTHING!! so lets say you need 10HP for 10 mins to compress the air for enough power to propel anything, then you will get less than 10HP for less than 10mins use, as was mentioned way way back by some guy, 'you cannot create energy" that seems like a strange statement, but it is so true, all you can do is change energy from one type to another, BUT, with a resultant loss when you do so! in which case unless we can make a compressor that runs off Solar Panels or Wind, then we cannot make more energy than we use! sounds a bit odd and hard to follow, but it is simple fact of life.

Gee, don't you like to spoil the party...

Free energy.. How about a bike pump;D

[TonyM]

Gee, don't you like to spoil the party...

Free energy.. How about a bike pump;D


Probably the biggest downside would be the amount of methane you might emit whilst providing the energy to pump it up ;D

[insideout]

imagine the powers that be try to charge us for every litre of "air" we would put in our tanks, and then try to justify a price hike... could get very interesting....

[zaraspook]

how much fossil fuel would be used to run the compressor used to fill the tanks. air tools have always been the most inefficient tools to run. would this be any better?

[FNQCairns]

Well it will be interesting if fuel does get to a price in the next 5 years I believe it will. Dont think it should but believe it will, people like me ignoring the 100kph zone and instead doing an efficient 55kph:):)

Anyway all for Nuclear, it's not what it once was, hugely safer today - just like a chest x ray is - how many have died from them as a result of days past.

Deep burial will work for waste, ideology may not let it though, we do need a cheap safe and efficient form of community energy to drive all of the other 'things' we today associate with out modern quality of life.

If for no other reason that the have-nots will not stand for the have's at this level of discrimination, will be interesting times.

cheers fnq

[seabug]

how much fossil fuel would be used to run the compressor used to fill the tanks. air tools have always been the most inefficient tools to run. would this be any better?

Might not be fossil fuel used at all.

There are plans for up to 1000 square km of solar farms stretching across Northern Africa feeding power into Europe.

http://www.menarec.org/resources/Nokraschy_Renewable+Energy+Partnership+EUMENA_06.p df

2 cables have allready been laid across the Meditteranean Sea

REgards
seabug

[FNQCairns]

2 cables have allready been laid across the Meditteranean Sea
REgards
seabug

WOW, how to ground an entire continent with just 2 bombs!:-X as we get smarter we also get....

Cheers fnq

[seabug]

WOW, how to ground an entire continent with just 2 bombs!:-X as we get smarter we also get....

Cheers fnq

Not really the idea,as well as a mighty dose of self interest the plan could also be a way of sharing the wealth of Europe with the North African countries .
Rather than have waves of illegal immigrants going to Europe to find a job.

Europe would also be getting Geothermal power from Iceland ,Wave and wind power from Ireland and Scotland,wind wave and solar from Portugal and Spain >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
http://www.airtricity.com/international/wind_farms/supergrid/
Regards
seabug

[TonyM]

WOW, how to ground an entire continent with just 2 bombs!:-X as we get smarter we also get....

Cheers fnq

If you consider a power grid similar to the network grid used to provide the internet backbone worldwide you would have a power supply that could theoretically be much more resilient than anything we have today.

I have no idea if this is technically/financially possible however that would take a lot more than just 2 points of failure - the internet was designed to survive nuclear war....

big journeys start from small steps.... Most likely that's just a small part of their greater solution.

EDIT: I noticed while I was typing this seabug confirmed my guess :D