Foiled again

[Horse]

Just letting you know how we went fitting a foil to improve the trim on our 17' Oceaneer centre console. The improvement was very significant in terms of providing bow down trim which is what we were after. It stiffened the boat up quite a bit as well. :D The boat now travels into a sea much better than before

The cav plate had been aligned with the keel but with the foil on we have raised it 50mm. The results so far have given us another 2knots and 200rpm at WOT despite the addition of a 1.4m X 1.7m Targa top. To say that we are happy with the improvement is a bit of an understatement;D



Cheers

Neil

[outsiderskip]

hi neil
igota19r haines carry 230lts fuel 100kgs of ice and 2 fat priks i installed one two found boat not slapping on waves and got boat out of water on plane quick and saved on fuel

pete

[seamaid]

:) hi neil
put a 300se foil on a 60hp to a 4.55quinny this boat gets well loaded crabbing /camping etc, after putting the foil on we noticed the boat was responsive
cheers ged

[BigE]

foiled my rig as well liked the trim adjustment with the foil and it was able to hold on the plan at a lower speed in a bit of a sea, didnt drop any speed but i think the economy was slightly worse in calm conditions but it was worth it for the other positives probably lost about 5-10 km per tote tank. mine is also a SE300 foil would be intrested to hear from someone who has fitted one of those ali plate foils as i think they would have even less drag than the plastic ones.

BigE

[Jono_SS]

I fitted the 300SE to my 50hp Tohatsu, but have not tested it due to recent excellent surf conditions!

I'm hoping for a bit more get up and go out of the hole - combined with the new smaller pitch stainless prop - particularly when fully loaded.

[trueblue]

The cav plate had been aligned with the keel but with the foil on we have raised it 50mm. The results so far have given us another 2knots and 200rpm at WOT despite the addition of a 1.4m X 1.7m Targa top.



My engine is set up with the cav plate 45 mm above the bottom of the keel now. Can trim the foil almost entirely out of the water in calm conditions with no ventilation or surface piercing. Good bow control though at slow speed or in rough conditions.

Mick

[FNQCairns]

Just letting you know how we went fitting a foil to improve the trim on our 17' Oceaneer centre console. The improvement was very significant in terms of providing bow down trim which is what we were after. It stiffened the boat up quite a bit as well. :D The boat now travels into a sea much better than before

The cav plate had been aligned with the keel but with the foil on we have raised it 50mm. The results so far have given us another 2knots and 200rpm at WOT despite the addition of a 1.4m X 1.7m Targa top. To say that we are happy with the improvement is a bit of an understatement;D



Cheers

Neil


But it does beg the question what sort of performance gains would you have got if you had raised the engine in the first place, 50mm is a big lift (too big for lumpy water??), all boats would be a dog with the engine this low if it could accomodate that lift without drama, guestimate there is at least 10km/h up for grabs with a lift like that (6km/h better cruise also +better fuel economy) and possibly the wonderfull opportunity to go up a pitch in prop, cannot get better than that.

Foils make a big difference to badly setup boats without doubt, and 9/10 make a well setup boat worse overall because it cannot be setup with a foil fitted, some boats do have problems that a foil will help bandaid (there have been really bad boats made also).

I only bother posting this so some who are thinking of spending the money look the other way first and chase a well setup boat for the HP they have, if for some reason they are still unhappy for some believed reason, hopefully they will fit a permatrim as the least damaging course.

Horse not bagging you personally (just talking boats), but it must still be a dog if you are happy with a foil fitted, unpopular comment I know but I am not trying to sell anything to anyone!8-).

cheers fnq

[Nico.d.R]

i have a foil on my 25 johno that is on my 4m mako and i get a wierd spray out the back on 1 side . Would this be caused buy the prop spining and pushing water to the 1 side ?

[Nico.d.R]

18560
its a bad photo but if i have the electric on the back the water washes up the back so much that it hits the bracket and comes in the boat . So im thinking about taking them off to see the difference , has anybody else had this problem ?

[FNQCairns]

NDR that spray doesn't look like the typical bat wing spray of a too low engine, not that that matters much if there is a foil on. Looks like the water instead of leaving the transom clean is impacting the foil at some level, only way for you totry and fix this is to take the foil off or to raise the engine with the foil fitted.

Without a tacho and without the ability to trim in real time, these are your only two options, but it does look like the foil is the cause of that spray. If you are to leave the foil, try 10mm higher.

cheers fnq

[Horse]

FNQ

We thought long and hard on this one before fitting the foil. The hull is a 70's model and they do have some peculiarities (eg 50mm+ keel). The boat was riding bow up with poor negative trim control. The foil has made an incredible difference to the handling. I have no doubt that raising the motor gave us the performance improvement but I think to raise without a foil may have led to cavitation in rough conditions and still no negative trim without the addition of wedges (hard to come by). We will try it without the foil at some stage and see how it goes

Cheers

Neil

[FNQCairns]

Thanks neil what is with those wedges! I have been looking everywhere, hope you do get around to doing some testing, bottom line is if you do the tests and the foil works the best then it is the best, the tests say so.

These days with the price of fuel so high, getting it right can mean saving almost as much fuel as fitting one of those new tech engine to the boat.

Good luck with it all.

cheers fnq

[Nico.d.R]

NDR that spray doesn't look like the typical bat wing spray of a too low engine, not that that matters much if there is a foil on. Looks like the water instead of leaving the transom clean is impacting the foil at some level, only way for you totry and fix this is to take the foil off or to raise the engine with the foil fitted.

Without a tacho and without the ability to trim in real time, these are your only two options, but it does look like the foil is the cause of that spray. If you are to leave the foil, try 10mm higher.

cheers fnq

thanks mate i can test the speed on my gps , if im on the plane with 1adult up front i sit on about 31km if the adult moves to the back i get about 36-38km . where should the foil sit below/even/above the bottom of the boat ? i was going to take them of and see what difrence there is but i might try lifting it a bit first .
thanks , nico

[Horse]

Yea FNQ, anything that can save a few $ on a trip will be a big bonus. The motor was setup then checked by Sundown Marine and they were not sure of how to setup with a keeled hull. Next we might lift further then take off the foil to test it

Cheers

Neil

[FNQCairns]

thanks mate i can test the speed on my gps , if im on the plane with 1adult up front i sit on about 31km if the adult moves to the back i get about 36-38km . where should the foil sit below/even/above the bottom of the boat ? i was going to take them of and see what difrence there is but i might try lifting it a bit first .
thanks , nico

nico, foils on light tiller steer tinnys are a hard case, the hull rides so high in the water at speed there is very little difference in water height between where it exits the hull and the sea level around it. So you have a very limited range to raise the engine and for it to work.

So often even or very slightly above is the best it can get which may not be enough height to hide the foil from the water.

Testing is the way to go, spend a little time without the foil to get the feel for what the hull will do naturally and as a result the permanent trim setting (which will always be a compromise) that best suits all speeds your boat is capable of or the most important speed in the conditions you normally boat in.

I had the same engine (near identical) it was a 30hp on a heavier boat and it was capable of well proped 45kph, if at full throttle getting weight down the back makes such a big difference I would guess you are well overproped ATM but without a tacho no way to know for certain and/or you have the trim set so the leg is 1 setting too close to the back of the boat (too much -ve trim).

cheers fnq

[gofishin]

FNQ

We thought long and hard on this one before fitting the foil. The hull is a 70's model and they do have some peculiarities (eg 50mm+ keel).

Neil, I assime your boat is a tinnie with an external keel ('I' beam section extrusion). In your earlier post you mentioned that the cav plate was inline with the keel. Was this the bottom (lowest part) of the keel, or the top part (bottom of hull sheets)? If the former then it is no wonder you could raise by 50mm. Before fitting my foil I trimmed my keel back to reduce ventilation.


...would be intrested to hear from someone who has fitted one of those ali plate foils as i think they would have even less drag than the plastic ones.

BigE
I have recently fitted a Permatrim to my 610 Quintrex + 140 white zuke. Can't compare it to the SE300, but am very pleased to the improvement in trim and bonus of eliminated ventilation. Came back from Tangers last Sat week in very ordinary conditions (25kn, downwind luckily) and could only get it to ventilate with excessive +ve trim. Previously it would have been sucking more air than a 100m sprinter on EPO! However i have yet to raise my donk, which i can now do thanks to the foil. This will give me a few extra revs & knots, but importantly lower the bow even more.

[seamaid]

Hi Horse
just inquisitive who recommened this foil (dealer)
what size is it --40 to 60hp---60 to etc hp
who fitted it
is it second hand & spaces( rubber shock washers missing)some have, some do not, is it alined properely
i cannot comment on raising the motor as i do not understand keel hull or is this a large planing straight or was this boat a inboard and a out board fitment later.
your saying dealer not sure i would phone dealer ships around your area & search for some answers
my opinion without seeing the boat /motor set up i can only comment
Cheers Ged

[Nico.d.R]

I had the same engine (near identical) it was a 30hp on a heavier boat and it was capable of well proped 45kph, if at full throttle getting weight down the back makes such a big difference I would guess you are well overproped ATM but without a tacho no way to know for certain and/or you have the trim set so the leg is 1 setting too close to the back of the boat (too much -ve trim).

cheers fnq

thanks fnq , the motor is 1 hole up from the transom at the moment , should i lift it out 1 more before taking off the foils ?

[FNQCairns]

NdR every hull/motor combination has it's own most efficient setting where opinion doesn't come into it, it can be measured with a tacho and a gps. No problem when a person has power trim to get very close to this place when personal opinion is left aside, when/if this place is found, fitting a foil then will almost universally ruin the measured good efficiency except possibly at the highest speeds where the foil maybe? finally out of the water all together.

You don't have the luxury to trim the direction of propulsion in real time so a compromise will always be what you end up with, it's normal to get some bow up in a non T&T tinny on take off so bear that in mind and take the fin off without changing height of the engine or the trim, second out should be close but transom angle can vary somewhat over brands, I had to wedge/shim my engine out to split the adjustment holes in half to get a good boat in the end, those spacing can be too large.

But without knowing if the prop suits your boat as it is always the first step in setting up but with hope you will get a better boat overall if you test, only ever change one thing at a time and unless it ends up a disaster straight away try and get used to it a little before the next change, through a process of elimination over time you can get something good, now if you had a tacho you could end up with something great as great as it gets anyway iMO.

cheers fnq

[Nico.d.R]

thanks mate , ill have a play with it and let you know how i go

[Nico.d.R]

heres a pic of the hieght it is at .
18762

[Horse]

Nico

That looks low to me

I have always set my tinnies up by trimming so that the cav plate is parallel with the planning attitude of the boat then aligning with the hull (not keel)

[gofishin]

Nico, your donk is too low. 2 holes up should be OK. Start there & test, then go up one more if performance is still OK. At full tilt the wings should be clear of the water.

Those foils are the only type i would recommend for smaller tinnies (had them on a previous 4.5m torny i had, & were perfect). At low speed they help keep a good trim, especially when it's rough, but the faster you go the less effect thay have - if they are installed at the right height. This is what you want from foils in small craft.
cheers

[FNQCairns]

Yeah I agree with the above that is too low, thats good news, you had better hang on! That foil looks to one of the better ones if a person had to have it.

cheers fnq

[Nico.d.R]

if i lift the motor 2 holes to get the hieght will there be to much angle on the motor ? should i lift it 20mm first than try the different holes out ? i should be going out this arvo so ill put it out to the 3rd hole and see how it goes , thanks again , nico

[gofishin]

Nico, I wasn't meaning 2 holes out, i was meaning up! But in your case many smaller donks only have one set of permanent bolting holes, so you may not be able to go up easily. Going out (angle) won't help.

If your motor is bolted thru the transom, and there are no other holes in the motor transom plate (to change height), you will have to remove the bolts & experiment with just the motor toggle screws and different height chocks between the transom top and motor. Start with ~25mm and go up. With a 25hp this method will be fine, just make sure you have a strong tether to the transom strut or other secure point (on boat) close to motor.
cheers

[Nico.d.R]

i have not bolted it threw the transom yet . would a piece of 25 mm square tube ally be strong enough for a chock , i want to get it right before i bolt it in .

thanks, nico

[Nico.d.R]

i have not lifted the motor up yet because there is the edge strip of ally is only 10mm away from the toggles , but i might cut 2 bits of ply to put over it so i can try it higher before i bolt her on . i put it up to the third hole and i can get about 40-41km out of it now so you a right that it needs to go up .

[Nico.d.R]

i put the motor up 10mm (they highest it will go without mods) and it made a heap of difference no spray out the back and it gets up quicker and handles a bit better . it is amazing how much 10mm can change all that , thanks for all the help .

[turrum]

Hey Guys
I have heard all sorts of stuff about these foils, such as increased fuel consumption, does not turn smmothly etc. I am becoming more convinced about purchasing one after reading these posts though. I have a Brooker 4.1 fisherman with a 30hp yamaha and it really struggles alot to get out of the hole, it is only a recent purchase. I am thinking a foil would solve this promptly?????????? What is the foil, Nico was using???????as some people said this would be their preffered foil, is this so????????????????? Thanks in advance Daniel

[turrum]

Also my cavitation plate sits 25ml below the bottom of the boat and this is max upwards with nil holes for further adjustment, would a foil be out of the water at this height?????????? otherwise may cause some drag?????????????????///

[Nico.d.R]

My unkle has got a mercury 30hp and it says it should sit 25mm below the boat . I will have a look at the brand of the foil tomorow and let you know .