View Full Version : Finally, but.........
Broomey
22-11-2007, 04:38 PM
Hi Fellas, well as most of you would already know Mistress is home in Broome, just thought I would post up a few pics for you guys to drool over ;)
One problem though, that I never really noticed when took her for the final delivery test, is that she "porpises badly"and no matter how I tried to trim the motor it did'nt make it any better, apart from having the motor tucked right in and even then its not what I would say fixed the problem, have heard and read a lot of reports on Trim Tabs, would this fix my problem???
Have read that Bennett tabs eliminate porpising, among othe things, but hav'nt been able to find anywhere where QL tabs{ which I am very interested in, and believe would suit me better} can do the same thing, I can only presume that they do, one thing I have learnt "never presume", so you guys out there with QL tabs do they eliminate porpising,:-/ , rang the distributor and he assures me they do, but hey, he's a salesman is'nt he,:-X
Thanks
Broomey
Poseidon
22-11-2007, 04:49 PM
I certainly am no expert regarding porpoising, particularly on a boat as large as yours however my experience came from my smaller boat porpoising and hard to handle straight from the dealer. It was fixed simply enough by raising the motor one mounting hole and that was that.
Someone here will know the best solution.
Regards Cameron.
Poseidon
22-11-2007, 04:49 PM
By the way that is a great looking boat.
Broomey
22-11-2007, 04:59 PM
Hi Poseidon, yep thought that as well, but motor sits on cav plate just at the right level when on the plane, so can't see this really fixing my problem, noticed that when planning just the back 1/3 of the boat is actually in the water, where it should be more, need to get the nose down more.
Thanks for your suggestion though
Broomey
Spaniard_King
22-11-2007, 05:02 PM
Yeh Broomey, they will fix ya porposing but do some homework on them. They require certain elements to be able to be fitted to a hull. I would be asking the manufacturer on his recommendations if they can be fitted to your hull.
They work well on mine;D
Spaniard_King
22-11-2007, 05:17 PM
Broomey,
IS the cav plate level with the surface of the water at speed?? IMO you may need to drop the engine one hole this will causse more pressure on the underside of the cav plate givving you more lift and more pressure down on the nose. Certainly a lot easier to play with engine heights before you fit tabs. I have played with engine heights on my rig and found the boat is best (held best) in the water with a bit of water over the cav plate.
Wahoo
22-11-2007, 05:43 PM
hi Broomey
first congrats on a fine boat looks sweet as
now this is MHO, if your dead rise is greater than 18* in this case you said that the cav plate is just level with the water when your on the plane, i would lift the motor one hole so when on the plane the cav plate sits about 30- 40 mm above the water you will notice a big difference with the boats behaveour (sp ) good luck and hope things work out for ya
Daz
Broomey
22-11-2007, 05:47 PM
Thanks Garry, was hoping you might read the post as I knew you got the QL's on your Eden, regarding the cav plate, yep it level with water line on the plane, with motor trimed out just slightly, and the 225 goes like a dream, @4000 rpm doing 48/49kms ;D , but bloody porpoising I could :'( .
Do you really reckon that dropping it a hole might fix the problem??:-/
Broomey
Wahoo
22-11-2007, 05:47 PM
PS ; Gary
Sorry but in no way im trying to conterdict in what you have posted.. you may be right
it sounds like the same prob i had in my other plate boat
Daz
Broomey
22-11-2007, 05:53 PM
Thanks Wahoo,
Now I'm really confused, you reckon raise it 1 hole :o , mm thought I might have to drop it 1 hole, at the end of the day need to get the bow up and stop the hull skipping, would have thought that by lifting 1 hole would have made problem worse:-/ . and it is a 18degree dead rise
Keep sending your thoughts fellas this is interesting stuff;) , too raise or to lower, that is the question;)
Broomey
Broomey
22-11-2007, 05:59 PM
This is the Ass End, so you guys can see dead rise;)
Thanks
Wahoo
22-11-2007, 06:02 PM
no worries broomey,
after a few trials either lifting the motor or dropping it
it will work out for ya
when im sitting on about 60ks the cav plate is about 30 - 40 mm above the water and the boat runs sweet as
Daz
Spaniard_King
22-11-2007, 06:04 PM
Broomey,
Lifting will make the boat flightier hence lighter in the nose. To be honest you may need to lift it a hole .. only trial and error will determin that.
You yourself can change the engine height, If you want to do It I can PM you the routine to do it at home... need a few spaners and a lump of timber and a jockey wheel.. takes about 20-30 min
Spaniard_King
22-11-2007, 06:06 PM
This is the Ass End, so you guys can see dead rise;)
Thanks
Hard to see on the pic but can you drop the engine a hole???
Broomey
22-11-2007, 06:08 PM
, if you reckon I can do this at home,{with out dropping the Bl##dy thing} , would be very happy to have you PM me, at least that way I can play around with it my self without having to pay$$$ for my Marine guy to do it!!
Thanks
trev1
22-11-2007, 06:16 PM
I'd try lifting or lowering before I bought any trim tabs. Trim tabs are quite often used to cover up other setup problems and seeing as its a new hull, you would be better off setting it up best you can first. Besides they're a prick to fish around when fish run under the boat.
Broomey,
Mate of mine had a porpoising problem,and he fitted a standard wedge to the transom,and problem was fixed.
This allowed him to tuck under more at speed,keeping the nose down.
I dont know how many degrees it was.
David
saurian
22-11-2007, 08:52 PM
Broomey looks like a good rig to do the Kimberley trips in, Finally you say...lol..
Can't help you with the porpoising , sorry.
Ta
Broomey
22-11-2007, 08:53 PM
Thanks DNEJ and Trev 1,
well after getting a price on QL's I think I'll take the option that every one has suggested, lower a hole or raise a hole, will play with it tommorrow.
Funnily enough when I finally got hold of the dealer, to ask his advise, he reckons there is nothing wrong with the set up and motor should stay at same height, informs me that when they test drove it no problems and got inexcess of 45knts , with no problems , but then told me he had motor trimmed right in, well if the motor was set up right . and you could trim it out a bit without feelin like "Flipper", what would it be able to do then?? ::)
Broomey
22-11-2007, 08:56 PM
Thanks Sauian, yep when I can get this porpoising problem sorted I hope she will be the ducks guts, Spaniard_King aka Garry, thanks for the PM mare much appreciated, will give you a follow up later when done and trialed.
Eddy
turtleshead
22-11-2007, 08:57 PM
Send it down here to QLD for the Xmas break Broomey ,
may have to put a few water tests in , but not promising anything .
Only taking the piss mate , Sweet looking boat .
Simmo2
22-11-2007, 09:05 PM
Absolutely Brilliant looking boat mate!!
But as it is new, ask the salesman fella and his knowledgable mechanic to come on a trip.... show them what you are pissed about, and get them to fix it!!
Why should you spend more time and dosh to get the thing right????
gar26lw
22-11-2007, 11:44 PM
Broomey,
Lifting will make the boat flightier hence lighter in the nose. To be honest you may need to lift it a hole .. only trial and error will determin that.
You yourself can change the engine height, If you want to do It I can PM you the routine to do it at home... need a few spaners and a lump of timber and a jockey wheel.. takes about 20-30 min
i wouldnt mind knowing this also, cheers
Most boat builders these days build their boats with a suitable rake angle on the transom. This gives the engine enough negative trim.
So adding wedges to enable more negative trim in order to get the bow down suggests theres something wrong with the setup to me.
Trim in is typically for starting off. Once underway and planing you trim out to achieve the least wetted surface area.
If altering engine height doesn't solve your problem Broomey I would consider the problem to quite likely be too much weight on the rear end. Same for the other blokes boat that added wedges.
Alternately you could add ballast up forward if need be to get the nose down.
Interestingly, the at rest photos appear to show the boat well balanced.
Cheers
Broomey
23-11-2007, 07:43 AM
Absolutely Brilliant looking boat mate!!
But as it is new, ask the salesman fella and his knowledgable mechanic to come on a trip.... show them what you are pissed about, and get them to fix it!!
Why should you spend more time and dosh to get the thing right????
Hi Simmo, in the perfect world thats what I would do, but problem being Boat built and set up in Perth and I live in Broome 2300 kms away, am going to try and get hold of them today, and try again to get something done, I agree mate why should I be spending more time and money trying to get something right that should have been right in the first place
Eddy
Broomey
23-11-2007, 07:45 AM
i wouldnt mind knowing this also, cheers
gar26lw will pm you what spaniard sent me, sounds bloody easy!!!
Broomey
23-11-2007, 07:50 AM
Too all that have sent advise and comments , thanks fellas, will be trying to adjust motor today and see how she goes then, there has been some interesting responses,.
Turtle mate. you've got no chance of getting Mistress to Qld :D this Xmas or any Xmas :P , but good try!!
STUIE63
23-11-2007, 08:12 AM
Eddy when you trim the motor all the way in do you get a noise or rev change like the motor is labouring a bit more or does it just keep the same engine note and revs?
Stuie
FNQCairns
23-11-2007, 08:47 AM
Mate bet that is a fast hull, hulls that porpoise quite often are, if you push through that stage at full throttle then quickly trim out stopping each time the prop starts to blow out then continuing again the boat will naturally want to ride on the very last part of the hull (your possible problem area) and it will fly. This is how many fast race monos get through this to ride on the pad and just skim along.
Anyway for a fishing boat it is not acceptable in any way to feel the need to do this, IMO sit down with a mate and a few beers and stare long and hard the last 1/4 of the hull length, think about how the water flows.
Use a string line to mimic the direct flow of water to exit along this portion of the hull. If you find the hull leaving the string line the closer it gets to the transom then there are problems you may not be able to overcome ie fix and you may need to consider covering the trait up along with the negatives associated with forcing this much extra drag as a result.
I bought a new hull with your very same problem, got frustrated with what I thought was the cause (because it involved cutting to correct). Towed it around looking for any 'experts' that could offer me a reasonable way out before I bought the cutting disks. Upshot was all that I got very poor advice that would have cost me much money and not addressed the actual problem. I learn't that often even boat builders cannot understand how water works along a hull, in the end I spent an hour with a cutting disk and the problem was gone, in hindsight it was staring me absolutely in my face, my problem was it was a new hull so I didn't want to rip into my new boat. The blokes I took it to did not have that excuse they really didn't know shit! - to the point of advising my problem was elsewhere.
So just because it is new doesn't mean they the builder cannot stuff up big time, the quicker you get onto it the better.
If anywhere the hull leaves the string line - water will try to, this causes a low pressure area that in effect sucks the hull down as flow past increases (need to trim in) when trim in can no longer compete it will porpoise until HP & speed has pushed the hull past this spot and it is riding high enough that the water is only impacting on the bad area and all will stay good till you slow down again.
A few actual improvements can be done like fitting extra lifting strakes rearward to force the water to continue lifting the hull along that area right up until it exits the rear and force pounds of extra stern lift with speed but a person has to nail if it is the typical problem area toward the rear actually causing the problem
Anyway sorry for the long post, you need to nail what is up aboutthat hull, builders even if the have made 50 of them before stuff up, some as in my case know it and still push it out the door to the customer.
good luck, it sucks but looks a beautyfull boat.
Here is a test, get the boat past the porposeing stage so it is running clean then throttle back very slowly, IF you can stay on the plane without re-inducing porposing until below the speed it would normally start on acceleration then laminar flow and a hull problem very much toward the rear that may be correctable could well be the cause.
cheers fnq
Broomey
23-11-2007, 12:41 PM
FNQCairns & Stuie, thanks for your comments, FNQ, what you are decribing is pretty close to what I am experiencing, took the Honda guy from Broome out this morning and he was saying exacly the same thing, "that the hull feels like its sucked into the water and wont lift" but when got it on flat water and opened throttle to 5000rpm + and it was great no porpoising , slapping or anything rode as it should ride felt great, he also suggests that drop the motor 1 hole { being done now}, and going to try a 18 + 19 inch prop, to see how it preforms.
He agreed along with the rest of us that the Boat should'nt slap/ porpoise to the extent it does and it has to be a set up problem, much to to dismay of Boat Yard manager that I I bought it from, who are adament the boat went just fine at time of delivery, but 1 good thing they are prepared to let the Honda guy in Broome try and sort it out, and they will cover it, realistically so they should, so at least they are concerned about the problem.
Anyway from what I am getting told today,and in earlier replies Trim Tabs may not be the answer!!!
Stuie, in answer to your question, no , no change in engine pitch/ sound, but must admitt the motor sounds a lot louder than I expected, a lot louder than the 150hp I had on the other boat, just putting it down to a bigger HP than I am used too.
Thanks for all your input.
Eddy
mirage
23-11-2007, 01:18 PM
Gday Broomey,
I hope dropping the motor works for you and you don't need the expense of tabs.
Having said that, in my limited experience, I reackon almost all boats of that size and up can benefit from trim tabs. Even if they are not popoising tabs will improve the ride to differing degrees and if used correctly will improve efficiency and economy. I have mounted QL tabs to my last boat and found them great, easy and simple to use and do not get in the way of your fishing or boarding ladders etc. But as someone intimated earlier you may have trouble fitting them unless you can get access from the inside to each side of the stern.
Good Luck, Scotty.
STUIE63
23-11-2007, 01:50 PM
I've never driven boats that big but my 5.5 when i trim the nose right down loses 150 revs so I wonder if a wedge will make the difference as the transom and motor angle might not be letting the motor far enough under just my thoughts though
Stuie
Broomey
24-11-2007, 04:26 PM
Update Fellas. well lifting the motor 1 hole did'nt do anything,:-[ apart from causing more spray and lowered revs, but changing props to a Solas Lexor deffinately made a difference , lowered the bow considerably, still was'nt running right but thats because we had motor too low,we got hold of the Solas guy in Perth this morning and had a yarn to him, he suggests and sent a 4 blade HR Titain which he reckons will sort my problem out,:undecided: HR Titain's are a stern lifting prop , with what the Lexor did, I am sure the Titain will do better, sio now drop a hole and fit new prop, and all SHOULD be sweet, let you know what happens on Monday.
Too all the guys that have offered there advise a big thanks fellas,:dankk2: in particular to Spanaird who went the extra yards trying to work out what my problem and what the soloution might be:thumbsup:
Eddy aka Broomey
pilchardjones
25-11-2007, 03:00 PM
gday eddy,
your boat looks great. i really don't think you have anything to worry about. it sounds like a minor motor fitup issue and it sounds like the dealer is getting it sorted out for you.
i know that there are about 30 of these exact same boats getting around and there is not a hull problem as FNQ may have eluded to. i know a bloke who has just taken posession of his 6.2 centrecab, and fitted it with a 150 yammie 4 stroke, and he loves it. he called me a few times to ask about my 6m goldstar before ordering his. he has sent me lots of photos of his first few runs in it. I also know of a 6.2m with twin 90 hondas that also apparently runs beautifully - photos attached.
i am sure the dealer will sort it out quite easily.
steve
Broomey
25-11-2007, 04:17 PM
Hi Pilchard, yep, after yesterdays trial with diofferent props ect, I am feelin a lot better, as mentioned, trying a 4 blade HR titian tomorrow, which should lift the stern ,am hoping this will sort it , that c/cab w/ twin 90's, was taken delivery of the day before I picked ours up,was going Esperance way I think, and the guy with the 150Hp, mmm test drove one with a 150, thought it lacked the power I was looking for:thumbsdown: , but every one to there own I suppose, and your right, the dealer is doing all he can to sort my problems out.
Thanks for for your encouragment:)
Broomey
Broomey
27-11-2007, 09:46 PM
Thought I would keep you up to date with the continuing saga,:-[
after endless prop changes , lowering engine ,raising engine back to original position , then raising another hole, I think we finanlly got it right, 1 more test run in morning with original prop will end the saga, tried 15 3/4X17 Lexor rode better but still got bounce till raised it to third hole good but have lost top end revs max 5400,= 68kms @ 4000RPM =50kms,4 blade HR titian,14 3/4 X 17 still porpoised no mater what hole & lost top rpm, 15 3/4 X 15 Lexor good on original hole {2 nd} but still bounced a bit, third hole great no bounce but lacking speed that I should be getting ,6100 RPM =72 kms, 4000rpm+ 45 kms.
Decieded will try original 14 3/4 X17 Titian 3 blade prop to see how that goes in morning, hopefully should be getting 6000RPM + for 75 kms +, if this does'nt work out will have to go 15 3/4 X 15 Lexor.
What a couple of days it amazes me how changing prop pitch, or type and lowering or raising engine could make so much difference, but after much stressing, I'm finally happy with the results we achieved ;D
Broomey
pilchardjones
28-11-2007, 10:44 AM
great news broomey,
now you can go and chase those sails. all the best.
i was over in broome a couple of months ago for work. we have just put some moorings in out at the rowley shoals. broome looked a great area for a boat like yours so you will no doubt have a ball.
steve
Broomey
28-11-2007, 10:00 PM
Even better news Steve,
We have finally got it set up just right, original prop Titian 3 blade ,17", set on third hole, mate she flys, WOT 6000rpm =75kms + pushing tide, took it out in a 1' chop and it just ate it , out into a 1.5 mtr swell could poke along at 35/40k's no problem, no porpoise , hull slamming or anything , rode the water the way it should have.
Thanks for your and everyone elses support through this ,was getting very down, thinking that a boat like this was a lemon, very bnearly rang dealer to tell him to get up here and sort it,but thankfully with a lot of stuffing around we got it right, much to the relief of every one involved.;D
Now a matter of ringing the guy I got the QL's from and telling him I don't need them :P
Thanks, hope to catch up with you next time your in Broome
Broomey
STUIE63
29-11-2007, 08:25 AM
Broomey great to hear it's sorted . you want to be careful about catching us up next time we're in Broome with a boat like yours I can see ausfishers lining up to come over LOL
Stuie
Broomey
29-11-2007, 08:36 AM
Hi Stuie,
Being over here on the West Coast don't get to meet many/any of you guys from the East, so if your over this way drop me a line and we'll see what we might be able to do ::) , bring rods and liquid refreshment;) , for after the trip!!!:o
Broomey
STUIE63
29-11-2007, 08:50 AM
Mate be careful like I said there will be plane loads coming for a ride in that toy
If ever i'm over that way will look you up hmm fishing then amber nectar sounds great
Stuie
pilchardjones
29-11-2007, 10:49 AM
Broomey,
I am glad you are all happy with it now. Excellent work and good to hear the dealer seemed pretty easygoing for you also. Great result.
Steve
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