Boat builders Qualification

[Stuart]

I have a question that is not aimed at anyone nor is it my intention to cause an argument. After building my own plat alloy boat some time ago in conjunction with a naval architect I come to learn heaps about boat design. This boat wasn’t a kit boat it was designed from the ground up using my experience in having game fished on many boats over many years and that’s what I incorporated into my boat. The architect put all this together for me so it worked as a great game fishing boat.

Over the course of this design I come to realise that not all plate alloy builders in this country actually have any qualifications at all. I mean they don’t have a trade ticket as a boiler maker, a fabricator, or even a sheet metal worker. I spoke to a surveyor about welding a boat that will be in survey. He told me that the welder should be qualified to a certain standard AS 1417 “from memory” I could be wrong with the number.

It just makes me wounder that so many people hand over many tens of thousands of dollars to what is an untrained person or persons. In having said that many do make a nice boat but I wonder how many customers got burnt in the training period of this person? Many of these guys also claim they design their own boats which also makes me think, what experience or training do they have in this area, do they now any thing about lofting a boat or beam to length ratios and the entire high tech math that makes a boat work.

As I said at the start I don’t want any pissing matches, I think this is a very valid question.

Stu

[lippa]

great question stu, what troubles me is the work some builders sub let out.
i'd hate to think my boat was welded up by any one other than the builder choosen for the job.

cheers

lippa

[DAVE_S]

Stu
thats why it pays to do your home work before you have a boat built .
i am so lucky that i have a family member who is a boat builder so that helps .;D

[gar26lw]

hmm, this is a great question. Hope someone gives a great answer :)

would this apply to fiberglass boats too?

would you consider the "you get what you pay for" saying applys to this situation?

what are the mistakes these unqualified builders are making in construction and design based on you building and fishing experience? Im just wondering what you did to your design to make it a great game boat.

[PinHead]

I will take it a step further...why does it take Aussie manufacturers so damn long to make a boat...they cannot be serious..I just cancelled an order on a boat..they said 10 weeks for a boat built in Brisbane(it even took them a week to even tell me it would take 10 to build it)...I know someone who has been waiting 10 weeks for a tinnie..if you cannot increase your production then what the hell are they doing in the game...especially with Al boats...spend some money..get a CAD driven plasma cutter...then organise some robotics for the welding..the capital expenditure would soon be offset by the increased production and increased profits. The last boat I bought..12 weeks as stated at time of order..right on time..and that was built and delivered from the USA...Aussie manufacturers of all types of boats really need to get organised.

I have wondered about your question also Stuart..this boat does this...this boat does that...but who does design them ..C Raymond Hunt or anyone similar????

[deadbeatloser]

pinhead wat a good point:D . i no wat your saying . two new boas this year equalled 19 weeks of waiting. >:(

[jimbo59]

Professionals built the titanic-amatures built the ark.

[TheRealAndy]

I will take it a step further...why does it take Aussie manufacturers so damn long to make a boat...they cannot be serious..I just cancelled an order on a boat..they said 10 weeks for a boat built in Brisbane(it even took them a week to even tell me it would take 10 to build it)...I know someone who has been waiting 10 weeks for a tinnie..if you cannot increase your production then what the hell are they doing in the game...especially with Al boats...spend some money..get a CAD driven plasma cutter...then organise some robotics for the welding..the capital expenditure would soon be offset by the increased production and increased profits. The last boat I bought..12 weeks as stated at time of order..right on time..and that was built and delivered from the USA...Aussie manufacturers of all types of boats really need to get organised.

I have wondered about your question also Stuart..this boat does this...this boat does that...but who does design them ..C Raymond Hunt or anyone similar????

The problem is that the industry is so variable. One week you have 5 orders, then next week you have none. If you employ 20 people so you can turn around a boat quickly, what happens 6 months down the track when you have no boats to build?

As for the qualification argument, I have a mate who is an unqulaified alloy welder. He has build some very large passenger ferries over the years, some with many sea miles on now. Never has any of his boats had a problem. Infact I am going to get him to build me a boat next year sometime. Being a tradie myself I know all to well the some qualified people should not be allowed to practice their trade, so you cant always count on some ISO standard.

[PinHead]

all industries are variable..mine is but you work around that to get the work done...if you have the 20 people and if your product is good you should not have any problems..plus..my comment about plasma cutters and robotics equals less staff.

[Lewy]

It gets worse, a lot of companies are looking to China to have their boats built.
I sold a house to a Asian gentleman some years back who asked me if I could recomend a good accountant, his english wasn't that good so I suggested he might choose one of his own kind. His reply was "Me no trust". Now would you go to sea in a Chinese Junk.

Regards

Lewy

Im building my own as well.

[BM]

Many boatbuilders do not want to gear up for larger scale production.

Take the likes of Bass Straight Boats in Melb. They have orders till 2010 apparently and many of these they will lose due to timeframe.

I look at it and think, gear up and up your production. But apparently the owner is getting on and really isn't interested in upping the entire production side of things.

Seems to me to poor foresight but then again, if hes happy and wants to retire in 5 yrs then he leaves something of a legacy to his son etc etc

And for the record "qualified" in the boatbuilding sense means very little these days I think. Theres a new rig on the market in Vic which is marketted as designed by a cabinet maker with no experience in boating whatsoever. Don't think I'd really want that to be public knowledge......

Certainly, pedigree is important in all aspects of life but don't discount the independant who may have a dead set ripper product. But there will also be plenty who have a dunger of a product..

Cheers
Cheers

[tunaticer]

Robotics and alloy boat building will be quite a few years off unless you can sell thousands of exactly the same hull. Robotics are a nightmare to get to run perfectly especially with varying angular directions of weld and joint shape. Add to that the inherent properties of alloy and how it welds and the variables are almost entirely outside the possibilities of robotics. With steel robotics would have half a chance, alloy.......well its just not steel or stainless and weld so differently its like chalk and cheese.
The biggest problem facing the boating industry and most other forms of manufacturing I believe is the boom in the resources sector. Why would anyone that wants to earn a dollar hang around for average wages when they can be earning a couple of grand a week doing dumb ass work in the mines and its infrastrucure? My Brother lives and works in Geralton in WA. They are hiring rabbits with no experience basically in welding and giving them a test run welding caps on pipe posts. If they pass the test (almost anyone who can dab weld to make it stick passes) they are being paid $45 an hour to weld caps. That is nearly double what boily's are paid to build boats in Aus for us to enjoy on our weekends. Are we willing to up the prices we pay for a boat to match the wages being paid in the mining sector so we do not lose our good tradesmen to the lure of higher wages for a no brainer job?? I think the end of the day the dollar speaks for both the purchaser and the employee. Employeees always want more and purchasers always want to pay less. Catch 22.....who will win the race?

Jack.

[chris_s]

I waited nearly 6 months before my boat was started, all in all it turned out to be nearly 12 months from date of deposit to final finish ( i fitted out and was away for work alot ), do i have any concerns with the boat and workmanship "NO". I even suggested to the builder that he needs to put on more people and a bigger workshop, his reply was that he didn't want to loose touch with the boats that go out, he was more interested in qaulity not qauntity. I applaud him for that and the proof is definitely in the pudding.
With the amount of orders that he may loose due to people not wanting to wait it would very easy for him increase the workforce, pump out the boats and make alot of money, but that doesn't interest him.
Some people would be very surprized to know that a large plate boat manufacturer didnt have top qaulity trades people, in fact the most qaulified were the apprentices. And the dollars you pay for their boats is rude.
Thank god that this is a rare occassion and not all builders are like that.

[FNQCairns]

I had a 5.8m, 2.4 wide with pod/foam/floor (6.2 overall) pressed tinny made for me in 5 days of work for 2 blokes, they were both workers one was not the builder so the 2 blokes would have done solid hours working on the boat. Each would make $20 per hour ($30 to the builder/per hour each)

80h of labour at $30 per hour = $2400 for labour.

Why do we behave so brainwashed as to the cost of labour in this country. When a person relates it to the sale price of the item it is a substantial piece of the pie but if the pie were chocolate it wouldn't be close to the slice I would choose to fill myself up.

cheers fnq

[TJ Bear]

In Australia and infact anywhere in the world there is no restriction as far as qualification required to build a boat however this is not abnormal as anybody can design and build a car or even and aeroplane. The automotive industry is far more regulated in respect to product testing before a car can be driven on the road but as long as it meets the relevant standards anybody can build it. In the marine industry only boats built to survey are require to meet stardards as far as laminate schedule engineering etc but anyone can build it as long as it meets the standards.

I work for Australias only truly internationaly competitive boat builder and we have a vast number of trade qualified people from boat builders to composite technicians, electricians, engineers and even our own qualified naval architect however there is no way a small boat builder could access these kind of resources. It makes me luagh every time I read people singing the praises of US boats as I can assure you that they are not built by qualified boat builders but rather extremelly cheap unskilled labour its just they use full linners and are great at form over function and a lot of people are sold on cosmetics and wouyld not know how to tell if a boat was built as that goes a lot deeper than the gell coat.

Some of Australias greatest boat builders and designers where not qualified, people like John Haines and Ben Lexen had no formal qualifications. Boats such as Fisher and AMM are better than any plate boat I have seen in the US and glass boat builders like Haines Signature, Eden Craft, Cruiscraft are far better built than 90% of the flashy US imported boats.

By the way I am an Australian qualified boat builder who has worked both in Australia and the US.

[gar26lw]

well i can certainly agree to the edencraft build quality after having just looked at how they were made on sat. imported us models seem to use screws to fasten things. look at a few cruise craft, they use bolts. nice.
all the american stuff looks great but from what i can tell are for lakes and poncing about :D

ive been hunting for my ultimate boat for my next upgrade and I go along with a tourch to check under the floors and deck to see build quality. i dont think im your average punter :)

so far I have liked eden craft, old second hand haines hunters, new haines hunters & cruise craft in that order. although i noticed some had unsealed wood in the floor, oh dear. the only one that didnt was edencraft which i liked the most.
what i did notice was that a lot of fiberglass boats are built as cheap as possible. cheap fittings, plastic everywhere, thin fiberglass.
i am concluding that things were built better in the old days and getting a good old boat and replacing fittings, beefing up parts gives you a far better boat for way less money. JMO

[PinHead]

I know what Stuart is saying...have a look at the number of alloy builders around these days...who actually does design the boats? who actually does the "engineering" for correct plate thickness or do they adopt the thickness that other manufacturer's use on similar size boats??? Does anyone really know??

What about the glass boat manufacturers...are any of them designed by professionals...with todays litigious society..I wonder what the ramifications would be if involved in a boating mishap and then trying to sue the manufacturer because the boat was not designed by a professional..I know all deisngers in the building game have to have professional indemnity insurance in case they make a mistake during the design phase and it carries through to the construction.

[Noelm]

we also must remember that sometimes "design V evolution" side of all this, just because something was designed by the Worlds best Boat Designer, does not necessarily mean it will perform better, or be stronger than a product that started off a few years ago and has been used/tested, modified and retested, some things just "grow" and a "proper" Boatbuilder really does not exist these days, it is more a range of trades prople who can do "stuff" that just happen to be building Boats, a (say) well equipped frabrication shop could just as easily build a "bit" of a bridge, then another place can build the other "bit" and when brought together it just "fits" and is welded together, it is really no different to a Boat, it is just Metal and comes from plans or templates and stuck together, in the case of Glass, you may have Laminaters and Carpenter types to finish a Boat, that same Laminater, could just as easily be building Swimming Pools, the concept is the same!

[Owen]

Whilst I share some of Stuarts original concerns, I've been in the welding game and around boat builders long enough to know that in general the welding at least is structurally sound. Some builders make sure they look great too. Others build to a price.

But to play devils advocate...
If we only want boats designed by qualified engineers and constructed by qualified welders who have done the additional tickets required, then doesn't that mean Stuart can never sell his boat?
i.e.
What weld procedures were followed?
What testing was done before hand to make sure he could weld well enough in all positions required in the procedures?
What Non Destructive Testing (NDT) was carried out afterwards?

These things are all required in structural welding, but as far as I'm aware not under any recreational boat building code.

Do we need such procedures and testing?
I don't think so. I think it would drive prices through the roof for little benefit.
It's unlikely a pleasure boat will suffer catastrophic weld failure if the welder even has half a clue. Could it happen? YES
Is it likely any professional boat builder in this country would turn out work that bad? NO

[Dicko]

Don't forget, when the boats all done, my dear old Nanna can put down the knitting needles for a few days and build you a trailer. All legit and legal.

She's baked scones before, so she's used to working with heat, it's all much of a muchness with welding & steel.

[PADDLES]

is the answer to this dilemma "regulation" of the end product and not necessarily the "qualification" of the designer? would it be such a crazy thing for all boats built to be made to a registered and type tested basic design? each manufacturer could submit their basic hull for approval to some sort of regulatory authority and then this basic design could be modified for the customer as required.

[Noelm]

I do believe that if a Boat is to be constucted to meet survey standards, then full plans and so on need to be submitted to the relevant State Authorities, but from then on similar Boats only need to be built to the same standard and procedure, and some are inspected at stages of constrution.

[PADDLES]

i know it would add cost to the final product, but why are boats not required to be built to a "survey" standard for recreational use?

[Noelm]

because some things would be not needed on a rec only Boat, but needed when you are (say) carrying Passengers, but some manufacturers only build to survey, but the Boat is never actually submitted for the Authorities to "stamp" it and od course there is an added cost, but at build time, it is not all that great compared to trying to get an already built Boat to comply, and then of course, each State has different rules and regs, so to be in anyway useful, all boats would need to comply to USL codes which would never be possible for most Boats (almost)

[PADDLES]

fair enough, it sounds like a bit of a nightmare for them.

[shano]

boat companies can not get boilermaker tradesmen. many are out at the mines earning $65-80/ hour! they dont want to weld ally all day like a robot, this is why they can not get the tradies! labour is the biggest thing!i am a boilermaker by trade and have been out of my time for 10 years now, i do shit loads of custom ally and stainless work! have done alot of work for you guys on the forum! the hours of labour add up! sometimes for a job that seems small for you , may turn out to be a very fiddly job! there for hours add up! i enjoy the work i do on the boats but i dont do it everyday, a change is great , sometimes i build large sheds, other times i do repairs on trucks! i pride myself on being able to do everything! anyway i dont know if what i have said makes sence or even had anything to do with the topic!!!! cheers shano!