Johno 110HP startup [Archive] - Ausfish fishing Australia, Australian Angling Forums

Noelm

24-09-2007, 10:55 AM

OK, lets do this from the very beginning, first off lets assume that the battery is good and there is fuel in the tank, the choke works, the motor is in the water and the water pump inlet is covered, so here we go, pump primer bulb untill it is firm/hard, lift warm up lever about 3/4 or so, push in key (to activate choke) turn over motor while holding in the key, when it fires, release the key and adjust warm up so it does not "rev it's head off", you may need to reactivate the choke if it seems it may cut out, I don't think the 110HP had a "cut out" emergency lanyard system

Roughasguts

24-09-2007, 12:06 PM

Hi Splash, So hows your battery leads ? might be time to put some new ones on it, may be the wires are going green wicking and turning to dust.

Or at least take the clamps off the battery and clean the clamps with a battery post terminal wire brush ( 5 bucks super cheap every boat should have it on board) Emery paper rolled up and turned inside the clamp will also clean the contacts up. I do this every time I re- conect the battery which is every trip.

Noelm

24-09-2007, 12:39 PM

I think I read it that it all turns over OK, but does not start, if you reread it! so I THINK the battery and so on are OK, it just does not start, but it did when he got it home from the ramp.

honda900

24-09-2007, 01:53 PM

Splash,

NoelM's reply is pretty much on the money, just with my 87 johno (may be different),

where you stick the key in the forward control box is a choke, however mine required that you depress it a few times as it squirts fuel into the carbies.

I could be wrong but that worked for me took me a little while to work out the same problem.

Regards
Honda

Splash

24-09-2007, 06:42 PM

Thanks guys.

I do recall doign all those steps and in that order - at ramp.

Yes - it does have a lanyard.

Terminals are clean, battery is 2 months old.

Outboard is started every weekend at home - first up without a hitch.

I wonder why it started carrying out a those steps at hoome but no start at ramp...?

Splash

hoga

24-09-2007, 08:03 PM

i checked the spark with a timing light mine would only do it every now & then it tturnd out to be asolder jont in stator i think

FNQCairns

24-09-2007, 10:15 PM

Just a hickup?

Possibly for whatever reason (plugs oiled form last muff job, old-ish unleaded in carb bowls) you ended up flooding it, if it continues consider decreasing the plug gap to the minimum stated in the specifications for your engine.

Also engines start easier on muffs due to less back pressure, if you have the problem at the ramp again (I assume you have already tried to start it and in the process the pump has pumped water) pull it back up on the trailer out of the water and try to start it till it kicks and even catches for half a second then back it back down and try again.

Tilting the engine up to somewhere near shallow drive (when in water) can help also.

SENSIBLE use of an ether spray like 'start you bastard' does no harm either, it's only a fraction of the inducted charge, a little goes a long way.

cheers fnq

Hagar

24-09-2007, 10:21 PM

Splash

Sounds like the battery is not the problem . Try this next time it does it .

With the key still at start if it does not crank jiggle the throttle around the neutral position to exercise the switch and see if it starts .

If still nothing keep the key at start and move the clip on the kill switch lanyard to pull the switch plunger further out and see if it starts .

If either of these make it start - take it to a marine mechanic and explain .

Chris

Splash

25-09-2007, 05:28 AM

Many thanks boys...

Seems liek it could be a multitude of things...

I luv my Johno!

Splash

Noelm

25-09-2007, 08:06 AM

I think we are still confused as to whether it does not start OR it does not crank by starter, I read it as it does not start, but does crank over, so jiggling the throttle lever will do nothing.

mromanis

25-09-2007, 08:54 AM

Hi Splash,
I have the same motor as you and experienced a similar issue. My problem was that the boat started fine in the driveway at home, got to the ramp, pumped the primer bulb, lifted the idle lever to 3/4 high, pushed the starter key in as I turned it, no start, over and over again. I could smell fuel coming from the carbs, engine cranked, just no take off. After about 30 mins of scratching my head, and checking fuel lines, spark from battery, I sat back in the passenger seat with my head in my hands. I looked up at the throttle lever and noticed that the red kill switch looked a bit strange. On closer inspection it was just slightly offset, thus opening the kill circuit and not sending any spark to the plugs. Either the trip there over some bumps or me knocking it a bit when stowing gear had dislodged it, I reseated it properly and it started first go. I have knocked it again since, but I now know what the issue is.
I helped a guy out recently who had a similar problem, except that his kill key could be put on on two different ways, but only one way actually allowed the motor to turn
over.
Hope you find the problem soon.

Splash

25-09-2007, 01:01 PM

Mnay thanks Oamanis and NOELm.

Will keep you posted..on furture starting events

Noelm

25-09-2007, 01:46 PM

can you confirm that the motor IS cranking over with the starter? but is just not starting, just to be sure.

Splash

25-09-2007, 06:04 PM

HI NoleM.

Yes, motor is craning over with starter.

No, motor did not start.

Splash

mromanis

27-09-2007, 03:03 PM

Hey Spalsh,
How are you going with that recalcitrant motor?

KGW3

28-09-2007, 07:45 AM

If it didn't crank (4th post) likely not quite in neutral or ignition switch is faulty. If it did crank and wouldn't start, it's likely flooded. By the time you got home, the plugs dried out and away she went. Best way to handle a flooded OB is to take the plugs out and dry them off with a clean cloth.

Splash

07-10-2007, 08:33 PM

OK guys - this one's a doozy!

I commenced this thread on 23/09/07. It is now 07/10/07.

Today was the first time I had ventured back to boat ramp (since 23/09/07) to try my luck again in starting the baot at the ramp - and not just at home.

Well, nothing has changed. I took it down to ramp again and same symptons occurred - I took note of everything that was mentioned in this thread and even made sure my crank battery was fully charged, started the boat just before I departed for the ramp and even fiddled with kill switch - all good.

As soon as I hit the ramp - no crank, etc, etc.. stayed there for two hours this time - waiting for possible fuel saturation to subside..

After the first hour, I was about the hear the engine chonk a few times and even witnessed the water pump pee hole expel water - as it should. Two secs later, dead..

Took the rig back home and yes, you guessed it, turned over straight away and ran it for about 10 mins with ear muffs.

Then, I took ear muffs up and sank the donk a drum of water - without ear muffs - to simualte similar pressures in water at ramp..All good and started first up - ran for 10 mins.

WHAT GIVES PEOPLE??

Need your help here - because I don;t really have access to the local boat shop down the road - because there ain't none here in GOVE..

SPlash

beached on

FNQCairns

07-10-2007, 08:52 PM

Spash at the risk of sounding like a smart arse, did you follow what I wrote before? if you had followed it you would have been boating already, your engine probably also needs a good run, will help with the start after.

cheers fnq

Splash

07-10-2007, 09:01 PM

HI FNQ. Thanks for sticking by..

Plugs are and always have been ( i have checked last week) at minimum gap to manual/spec.

Boat was attempted to start after boat was removed from water up ramp.

I was in shallow water for two hours attempting to start.

Did not use ether spray as I assumed it be OK as I started 20mins prior to entry at water - at home with ear muffs. I don't know how to (or how would I) detect a problem if it starts first up at home..

Over to you. Thansk FNQ.

SPlash

FNQCairns

07-10-2007, 09:29 PM

Ok fair enough, part of the problem is once the battery just starts to wear down it very often is game over, a fast cranking speed is a must, so trying for ages in the water does two things it lessens cranking speed and loads the engine with fuel/oil, the fuel will evaporate the oil will not. You engine is still gummed up from a lack of on the water runs in-between trailer starts.

The ether is a last resort, but sensible use will not hurt it, an urban myth has been built around the lowest common denominator and how they used it but you get that everywhere.

Next time, don't start it at home first on the muffs unless you can get it to near full operating temp and it is still warm by the time you hit the ramp.

If it gets to the ramp more or less cold, try and start it, if it will not kick, pull it up before the battery slows and try to get it to kick on the trailer, leg out of water, when it kicks, back it down until the water pickup is just under the surface and try again.

If it doesn't go pull it back up again out of the water till you get a kick or a very small run then back down again pickup just under surface, an experienced operator will use full throttle (no choke) to clear a flooded engine 70% and also use full throttle (no choke) from cold to save flooding a gummed up engine, use carefully so as to not over rev when it does catch.

Cheers fnq

Splash

07-10-2007, 10:10 PM

THank FNQ.

I am a bit mystified about your last post.

What is the disadvantage of starting the donk prior to departure for ramp?

THere seems to be a theme happening here. Why does it start at home and not at ramp?

Why should the water pickup be just under the water surface (ocean) for start?

What difference does "kicking" it just before ramp and at home?

I am getting concerned now - because it really has nto been in the water since Feb this year - transit from Melbourne to Cairns. Stowed in Cairns for 4 months - with some ear myff starts, then stowed at Darwin barge warf for 4-5 weeks and now it is October and still no run to clear out cobwebs.

I am sure that once I get it running, I will blow all the cobwebs/gum stuff out and all shoudl be sweet.

But, for now, I am stuck and still do nto understand why it starts at home (ear muffs and still water in drum) and not in ocean?

SPlash

FNQCairns

07-10-2007, 10:56 PM

Hi Splash, it started in the drum because the engine was still warm from the start on the muffs.

Against starting before leaving unless it is to get it fully warm, if it is still warm when you get to the ramp - it will start, the only other good option for you is to hit the ramp with an engine you prime/choke right from a fully cold start as per your normal procedure, than an engine you choke and flood because you ran it for just a little while at home before leaving and caused some extra and fresh oiling up.

It starts at home because you are starting it on the muffs (less back pressure) at the ramp you are trying to start it in the water.

The higher the leg is out of the water the less backpressure, but you still need to pump water.

You only want to try and start it when it has water this is easily done at home and when launched but hard to do directly before launch as the pump is too dry.

If you have already tried to start it 'at the ramp in the water' the pump has been lubed, pull it back up a few feet by the trailer till the leg is just clear of the water, there will be enough residual water still in contact with the pump, turn it over till it kicks and clears a little (2 seconds?) at a low and stumbling flooded rpm that you will have, hope you get what I mean here - under no circumstance should it be reved out of water, the impeller will spin too fast and too long.

Then back it down till the intake is just below the surface and try again, repeat if nesessary, or use some ether spray as per in my above posts.

Mate its all the running on muffs etc without a good run in-between that has caused your problem. Damn shame they cannot be tow started.

cheers fnq

PS you got all new fuel? If not unleaded is a hard starting fuel to begin with, old unleaded would have trouble starting a diesel!:)

Just be sensible in everything you do, is there a tap at the ramp to muff it fully warm before launch????

Splash

08-10-2007, 05:00 AM

THanks FNQ. - Your support is really appreciated!

To confirm - why does back pressure increase when immersing/running the donk in ocean?

First up, have we concluded that the cause of these events is primarily due to running on muffs without a good run in-between? Before (23/09/07), fuel and electrics were thought to be the cause......

What is is about not being able to run in ocean for 6-7 months but still on ear muffs? What impact does increased back pressure have on an engine that has not run in ocean for a long time?

What is it about the engine warmth that enabled it to start in the drum (yesterday)?

At my first attempt (on 23/09/07) of launching the boat, I did not start the engine prior to leaving home. When leg was lowered into water, I primed/choked from a fully cold start - as per normal procedure. On this day, the 'cold' engine still did not start when lowered into ocean.

Is gumming/oiling of plugs a real concern if started at home prior to launch?

If I do have a"gummed" up engine, why does it start at home if the plugs are gummed up?

Is our ideal situation to start engine with ear muffs at ramp and negate that 20-30 min time lag (home to boat ramp) if started at home?

I have filled with new unleaded fuel and will check/confirm if a tap exists at ramp.

It should also be noted that during my 2 hour stint yesterday, I beached the boat (after about 40 mins of waiting/turning/waiting/turning/etc.) and tried to start with leg raised out of water. This made a bit of difference as the motor turned over and 'chogged chogged' softly (hearing the pistons move up and down inside the cylinder) 3-4 times then died... I was able to repeat this a few times but then gave up and went home.:'( When this "chogging" did occur, I did see the beginnings of the tell tail water flow come out...

What is this ehter stuff and what is it's retail name? Where do I spray/apply it?

What is our aim here to get the donk running in ocean?

Thoughts?

Splash

Splash

FNQCairns

08-10-2007, 08:37 AM

Hi Splash, an engine is just an air pump, restrict the outlet side of the pump and it must work harder to overcome the restriction, the leg imersed in water is a restriction, the air pump needs to force air under a foot or more before it exits, thats hard work.

Probably not elecrics, but if you used fresh fuel right from the get-go, it may have been a little hard to start but no drama that would have stopped a trip, I surmise.

Muff running oils engines, good for short term storage but causes harder starts, the cylinder temperature is what burns the oil, a cold engine (on muffs) will not fully burn the oil, the oil has a flash point if not fully reached will not combust totally and gum up the system (reason why a thermostat that works is important).

Drum start because you had some cylinder temperature already, so it was not strictly a cold start, the engine even after this run is still gummed up.

It's not the plugs, but of coarse they can it's the carbon has been infused with oil, the ratio of residual oil within the crankcase/internally is very rich, until it is started and ran there is not enough velocity or temperature to clear it away.

Yeah engine is cold again after 20min, replicate what you do at home on the muffs then get it in the water in quicktime and it will go or it should, but it needs to be fully warm first.

Yeah the chug is what I call a kick, you had ignition, it wants to start and is trying to clear the mess, just too gummed/overfueled to win.

The ether spray can be bought at any autoparts store, look for 'aerostart' or 'start you bastard'. It is a less is more product but you still need to use enough for it to work, pull the cover, pull the induction baffle on the front of the carbs, have one person on the key and another in realtime misting along each carb mouth, the air sucked in will take the atomised ether inside to be ignited an catalise the combustion of fuel and oil.
Less is more, dont dump a big spray straight down the carb throat or the engine will live on it alone for a couple of seconds and depending on how stupid the person doing it was can over rev.

Aim is to get the engine on the water in gear and cruising cause once you get there the problem goes away, unless you lug it of coarse or unless it doesn't have a full functioning thermostat if this is the case you will have a hard to start beast off and on forever but with a couple of at the ready procedures it can be overcome each time before the problem worsens.

cheers fnq

PS never run the engine in gear and on the plane with the cover off and esp the cover and the induction baffle off actually never run it in gear with the induction baffle not fitted is proably the best advice.

Good luck, it will go jsut get the procedure right before the cranking speed slows.

FNQCairns

08-10-2007, 09:04 AM

Thought I better add, where people go wrong with ether spary is too much spraying not enough cranking, only spray while it is cranking so as to not load up theengine with WET as opossed to atomised ether.

cheers fnq

blaze

08-10-2007, 01:25 PM

The good old "go you stink rotten muddr fu" Be care ful with aurostart, went to a maching thet had a couple of tins sprayed into it once (wont start because the crowd lever was engaged and was lifting the relief valve) it knocked for 20 minutes after I got it going, operator said he didnt spray areostart until I pointed out the 2 empty tins sitting beside the air cleaner.
This is the engine you done up, isnt it ?
I wonder wether it has a crook top or bottom crank seal and sucking air, maybe starting at home because of the less back pressure, possible still have less back pressure in a drum that in the water proper.
cheers
blaze

Splash

08-10-2007, 06:02 PM

FNQCairns

08-10-2007, 06:26 PM

Hi Guys.

FNQ - Detailed post - thanks I needed it. AS you may be aware I am "Smelly" - that legend of a guy who performed heart surgury on this donk last XMAS - which inlcuded replacing both stats - (Blaze knows the pain I have gone through).

I have checked the ramp - yes there is a tap available. How long does it take beofre the donk cools substantially not to warrant warm anymore?

I reckon I could run it for 5 mins on the muffs at the ramp and then spend the next 5-10 mins loading back into the water. Is this too much time lag?

SPlash

Yeah I go around in circles but get there in the end, concise is a nack I have yet to learn, I know who you are splash, from the day of your first post;) Your engine deserves a fine and long life:D and you deserve to actually go fishing for a change!

Probably not too much time lag, everything I say is subjective, just get it nice and warm on the muffs even if it takes 10min, the closer to operating temp the better, high flushing idle like 1000-1200rpm, have the boat near ready to back down whatever is the best you can do.

good luck and dont shut it of again until you have done a good run and are back at the ramp -I have every faith but just in case - it has been sitting for a while.

cheers fnq

PS hey Blaze how come that engine took so long to run well??

Splash

08-10-2007, 06:42 PM

Thanks FNQ.

It has certainly been a journey! And, I won't give up on this donk !

What do u think about the "crook top or bottom crank seal" that Blaze referred to - Symptons?

do u think the fully warm engine will work? Do u think the time it takes to get the trailer backed into water and boat off the trailer will be too long before the enginee cools down after 10 mins of idle on the muffs?

SPlsh

Chris Ryan

08-10-2007, 07:32 PM

Hey Splash,

I can't add much to the discussion here mate but know exactly where you are as I have spent a bit of time up in gove myself. I wish you the best in getting that donk running as there are some snodging places around Melville Bay to go fishing.

The only thing that I know which will simulate the backpressure from the sea is those silencers you can get to put in the exhaust in the prop.

Cheers,
Chris

FNQCairns

08-10-2007, 07:33 PM

Symptoms, are usually either a blown piston, rougher idle, harder starting, depends on how bad it is, on our engines it will only effect either top or bottom piston as each piston has its own private crankcase in these 2 strokes, with one carb supplying each side. Possibly not your problem in this instance though, doesn't mean it doesn't have a problem, just too early to tell yet, your odds are the same as everyone else who has laid up an engine for a few months - pretty slim but it can happen.

Why take the boat off the trailer?? at least until it is running nice and warm. 5 minutes would be ok, 10 at the outside - depends on how warm your engine gets on muffs, I remember you have holes drilled in the poppets - this helps to overcool the engine at idle. So just get it as hot as it will get feeling the engine by hand then back it down, just don't knock over a bucket of KFC under a tree first:), do you have a KFC where you are?

cheers fnq

Chris Ryan

08-10-2007, 07:37 PM

Hey FNQ, in Gove mate no KFC. He is in the NE corner of Arnham Land. It is a magic place to fish. I caught a massive Spanish off the beach one arvo with a couple of blokes on a beach rod, an Alvey sidecaster without a drag and using fresh Barracuda for bait. It was a hell of a fun time.

Cheers,

Splash

08-10-2007, 08:10 PM

Splash

08-10-2007, 08:17 PM

Thanks FNQ.

Havent seen any KFC buckets but have dodged a few black stumps and lumps of red raw watermelon that I thought contained pips...........;D ;)

Yes, I did drill those holes in the stats - good memory!

Puff is right - fisher's paradise because it is not very fished out like some other places I know of around our big beautiful country...

It is not uncommon to boat a 20kg SPANISH - if you beat those sharkies...

Trout, sailfish, cobia - even tuna inside the bay! Now, you can understand why I am so keen to get out there and live my boyhood dream!

SPlash

Chris Ryan

08-10-2007, 08:32 PM

no waypoints mate to share sorry. I was a fly in/fly out as a supplier to Alcan. I made a few visits a year, doing the bush golf and volleyball days as a sponsor and always made time to fish. Was mainly on the beach or around the jetty and the sailing club. Been a few years since I have been there though mate.

Info of silencer....
http://www.whitworths.com.au/main_itemdetail.asp?item=55114&search123=silencer&intAbsolutePage=1

Maybe some of the guys with more experience on motor servicing may have a comment on these, I don't use one but they have been recommended to me for the back pressure to get the idle adjusted right.

Good luck mate.

Splash

09-10-2007, 04:57 AM

Thansk Puff!

Team - I have kept a can of "Quicksilver Power Tune" from Melbourne and ask if I can use this in place of the ether you refer. This stuff is a carburetor & engine cleaner.

Splash

Splash

09-10-2007, 05:00 AM

Splash

09-10-2007, 05:06 AM

fnq - what does the induction baffle on the front of the carbs?

FNQCairns

09-10-2007, 07:36 AM

The fishing sounds great up there, big spanish from the beach!

Powertune will not work splash, keep forgeting you may not have somewhere to pick up some ether spray but you shouldn't need it from what you have said.

Cranking is when you hit the key and the engine turns over. The baffle is the piece of kit bolted over the mouth of the carbs to keep noise down, looks a bit like an air cleaner but is not.

cheers fnq

gawby

09-10-2007, 08:02 AM

Splash,

You have picked up some of the best advise you could ever want but one thing i could add is put some new spark plugs in it. It is the only thing i can see that that has been missed.

Lots of luck.

Graeme

Splash

09-10-2007, 12:57 PM

FNQCairns

09-10-2007, 01:36 PM

THansk FNQ and Gawby.

WHy won't I need ether now? It seemed you were pretty adamant that I needed the ether...?

Gawby - I had put new plugs in Feb this year and boated once (in Feb). Why do I need new plugs? How will cleaning these plugs NOT be sufficient?

SPlash

Ether is a great backup when all else fails, with hope and as a result of your experience on muffs and then the tub of water at home, if you reproduce this experiment at the ramp you should be home and hosed.

Not trying to talk you out of the ether spray it's good insurance IMO. I always have some handy just incase, but if it is hard to source don't let that delay the other plan.

When is the attempt?

cheers fnq

Splash

09-10-2007, 05:39 PM

Thanks FNQ.

What is different about Quicksilver Power Tune to Ether?

Next attempt - maybe/hopefully tomorrow PM or THursday.

THe ramp is right opposite my work so I need to plan around my work hours.. :-(

Splash

FNQCairns

09-10-2007, 06:21 PM

Splash, the power tune is one of the carbon removers, it's good stuff, the ether spray is a highly volatile liquid, it will flash (ignite) very easily and promote the the fuel to ignite, too much and the motor will run or over run on the stuff and knock it's own brains out.

Ok look forward to hearing how it ends up.

cheers fnq

Splash

09-10-2007, 06:41 PM

just took the plugs out - black, oily, but not burnt - they are new.

What shoudl I do?

SPlash

gawby

09-10-2007, 08:32 PM

Splash,

I was only making a comment on the plugs, you say they are new but black and oily.

Give them a cleanup and put them back in.

If there is to much oil on them it will cause hard starting as the electrode is blanketed from the body arm.

Graeme

Splash

10-10-2007, 04:24 AM

Thans Gawby.

They were black from oil residue but electrode appears uncoloured and not broken down by long sparking events..

I am glad I took them out and inspected them - thanks for tip.

SPlash

mromanis

11-10-2007, 02:04 PM

Hi Spalsh,
Got your PM just now, I have been away.
When the boat is in the water, have you tried starting it with the motor tilted out of the water (ie soft start with little RPM) with the water pick ups just skimming the surface?
Then drop it into the water and see if it keeps running?
Might confirm or eliminate the back pressure theory.
How old is the fuel in the tank?
I can't recall, but is your VRO (variable ratio oiling) connected or do you pre mix the oil with the fuel?
If you do pre mix, are you 100% positive that the VRO is disconnected?

Splash

11-10-2007, 05:13 PM

THanks MrOmanis.

Yes, tried that - no work.

Fuel is brand new.

VRO used - how do I confirm if connected? And, how woudl this affect different starting locations (home and boat ramp)?

Splash

11-10-2007, 05:27 PM

Splash,

If I recall correctly several images on my computer are of your engine and you were fiddling with changing thermostats etc etc

Did you get your linkages correctly set up again?

OK- In order:

1) Compression test - lets make sure there are no cylinder issues happening

2) Carby linkages setup - all butterflies close together and all open to the same degree in unison

3) You need to check your pick up timing and your max advance - although for starting issues your max advance isn't relevant

4) Make sure your "enrichener" (the black cylinder about 2 inches long and 1 inch in diameter with a red cam on top) is locked off. You know when its off as it "clicks" into the off position

5) Ignition output needs to be assessed

Now, running on muffs but not in the water tells us some basic information. "Free running" as in no exhaust backpressure to keep the engine at equilibrium is an easy condition for even the sickest of engines to achieve. When the engine is in the water the midsection of the engine is full of water, up to about 5 inches below the powerhead. So the engine has to push the exhaust either through that coloumn of water or alternately it pushes a degree of water out the exhaust relief holes at the top of the leg (hence the name exhaust relief).

A strong engine will have no issue doing this. So if your compression checks out ok then I would be looking at spark.

You can do a basic spark GO/NO GO test with a timing light. Check each cylinder is firing consistently. Don't point the light at the timing mark, just point it at your face so you can watch the consistency of the flash.

To really assess your spark you need a DVA meter or knock up a homemade spark stretcher so you can check each cylinder and obtain at minimum 1/2 inch of BLUE spark. Not YELLOW spark as that means low voltage. A simple spark tester can simply be a screwdriver poked in the end of the plug boot and as someone cranks the engine you hold the sparkplug (insulated end) and stretch the spark from an engine bolt or similar or you can make one with a piece of timber and some screws etc or a spray can plastic cap and a couple of bolts etc or buy the Snap On brand spark tester.

Pull all your plugs out to enable the engine to spin rapidly and test each cylinder. If you cannot pull at least a half inch blue spark from all cylinders then (on a JohnnyRude) you likely have a powerpack problem.

Digest and implement the above and get back to us.

Cheers

Splash

11-10-2007, 05:46 PM

HI BM and thanks fo rpost.

It ran last in Feb this year - after I performed al that stuff on the donk. Ran pretty well I must say and was happy with it. SInce Feb, been in transit, storage, etc.. - without a run on water. Nothing has changed since Feb and even put new plugs in and performed a link/sync (professionally) at a boat dealer. Compression also checked by dealer - all ok.

I pulled plugs yesterday and were prety well guimmed up -but not burnt. All cleaned and back in holes now. I will take rig to boat ramp tomorrow and start/run with ear muffs at ramp - then launch the boat while head still hot/warm.

SPlash

11-10-2007, 06:01 PM

What boat is this engine on Splash? And can you get us a pic of the boat sitting in the water? taken from the stern.

Reason I ask is that if the engine is really low in the water this can make starting very very difficult (the backpressure issue).

Re your plugs, the INSULATOR which is the white ceramic part around the centre electrode should be whitish brown in normal use. Often they end up a bit black and carbonish particularly after slow speed running. But if you went for a high speed blast for 20 mins and pulled your plugs the insulators should be a brownish white.

When you say "gummed up" please describe more explicitly exactly what you saw. Also, when running on muffs are you blowing out a lot of smoke?

Cheers

Splash

11-10-2007, 06:19 PM

HI BM.

Haines HUnter SLR 5.3m deep vee hull 1989 model. Will try to get photos.

Engine has started every time on same boat in same position before Feb2007.

Gummed up - blackish residue on top part of plug where it enters cylinder. Looked like unburnt fuel/oil mix..

SPlsh

Timmy94

11-10-2007, 06:28 PM

Why do you run it at home before hand splash? No one i know does and we never do.

Splash

11-10-2007, 06:40 PM

Good question.

People up her ein Gove tend to do that - dunno - maybe it's a comfort thing. So I tried it the second time I was about to go out - just to make sure and the locals had advised me to do this.

Timmy - do u think starting at home before trip to ramp is attributable to my bad luck at moment?

Splash

Timmy94

11-10-2007, 06:57 PM

Well i cant see how it would affect it. Could be but i would start it and if you do get it to start try and give it a good rev at 60-80% throttle for 20-30seconds then get going and take for a good long run with alot of bursts at full throttle. Although i personally would suspect oiled up plugs and now that you cleaned them you might be a bit better off. I was having some trouble a while back with our 25hp johnson and we were told by a reptuable mechanic to run higher then 50:1 ie 65:1. That did help but we just need to use the choke a bit more often now or else it will cut out. If we have been fishing for a couple of hours without moving.

Splash

11-10-2007, 07:28 PM

Thanks Timmy.

Big start tomorrow.

Chris Ryan

11-10-2007, 07:39 PM

Good Luck Splash!

mromanis

12-10-2007, 11:03 AM

Hi Timmy 94,
I always run my motor the day of, or day before, using it to make sure I have no problems at the ramp. Both Splash and I have engines that are almost 20 years old, and I don't like taking things for granted, something those with more modern motors don't need to worry about.
I have a big tub that I drop the leg into and fill with water from a tank. It gives me peace of mind that I'm not going to waste my time or my family's time solving start problems at the ramp. Though in Splash's case something odd is going on.

Hi Splash,
Near where I live in Melbourne I saw a boat in a local street that looked a lot like my own one, and seeing the age of my old thing, it is quite rare to see another one. So I stopped and asked the guy some questions about his rig. He told me he was heading back home because he could not start the motor at the ramp, his motor is only a couple of years younger than mine, so we had a look and I discovered that his VRO was still connected even though he was using pre mix fuel. His problem was that he had been told by the mechanic that the VRO was disconnected and to use only pre mix, which was not the case, the VRO was still pumping oil from the oil tank which had oil in it still.
He had simply too much oil in the combustion chambers, so we cleaned his plugs, hooked into a fresh fuel jerry can rather than the premixed tank, turned it over and it started straight away.
This story is probably of no use to you though.

tez1

12-10-2007, 11:55 AM

hi splash i dont know if this has been mentioned yet, i had a similar problem with my merc,would start run then stop,etc.it turned out it was the fuel tank pressure relieve knob on the cap when i was towing the fuel splashed around causing pressure buildup ,so the pump was trying to suck fuel but had to much resistance,ie little bit would get through and it would run.i was a bit green when i bought the boat so didnt really know about the cap relieve,anyway just a thought...

cheers tez

Splash

12-10-2007, 07:46 PM

SUCCESS!

I got my donk to work in ocean at last.

Here is what i did - ensured all plugs were cleaned prior to launch.

I was unable to flush at ramp (prior to laucnh because of damn unpalnned meetings at work!!). Anyway, there I was in my jocks and work shirt in the water.

I lowered the boat into water whislt stil on trailer. lowered the prop right down and cranked once. Then I lifted donk right out and crank again - still no start but promising sounds... I then lowered donk into water just over the the holes and cough cough cough, the donk was resuciating iteself. I lwoered the donk right in water and i saw the pee hole water spout and whamo - LIFE!

So, I took it for a spin (slowly at first) and then cranked her up. A few mins into it's first run since Feb 07 and I hear the alarm go off. HERE WE GO AGAIN!!!

I turned off motor straigh away and waitied 2 mins - then started again - but alarm still on. Twas gettign dark and I was getting scared a bit.

Headed back home with alarm constant. Was about 2kms out.

During this time I checked to ensure water was still coming out of pee hole - yes it was.

I made it home and drove home. I thne flushed at home with ear muffs and siren not on. I ran it for aroudn 10 mins at home with muffs to try and simualte the hotish situation - still no alarm.

Help?

Splash

FNQCairns

12-10-2007, 08:16 PM

Hey Splash are you a calm sort of individual? What would I have seen if I was fishing 100m away from where you stopped alarm ringing:)

Was the engine actually hot! ie did you feel it to check?

cheers fnq

PS sounds like a text book case of restriction, poppets stuck and/or thermo stuck.

cheers fnq

Splash

12-10-2007, 08:35 PM

HI FNQ.

Fairly calm guy. WHen I heared the alarm, I felt pretty dejected actually.. You woudl have seen my smile turn into a frown...

didn't ge tto feel it as i was fairly anxious to get back at ramp beofre sundown...

I understand there are two conditions for alram to go on - what are they again?

Splash

Splash

12-10-2007, 08:39 PM

oh gees... what shall i do guys?

why didnt the alram go off at home when it ran for 10 mins?

FNQCairns

12-10-2007, 08:48 PM

Oil or temp, forget which sounds like which someone will know, might be oil? if not premix.

Dunno why at home if it were oil but if temp it's because idling you have enough cooling capacity, it's only when you give it some under load the cooling couldnt keep up, IMO pull the thermostat housing and inspect/clean/ replace bits.

A little bird told me you are well versed at this procedure:) - sorry!

Mate I would have blown a fuse, short but sweet, how frustrating!!

cheers fnq

Splash

12-10-2007, 08:55 PM

OH NO - NOT the stats again!

WHy woudl they be faulty?

Basically I have f kd up propbaly...

I keep referring back to my journey back in FEB where everything went smooth without alram going off, etc.. WHy now?

Splash

Splash

12-10-2007, 08:56 PM

woudl i have damaged the donk by driving it back to ramp with alarm going off?
(about 1km)

Splash

FNQCairns

12-10-2007, 09:06 PM

FNQCairns

12-10-2007, 09:10 PM

woudl i have damaged the donk by driving it back to ramp with alarm going off?
(about 1km)

Splash

Cannot say, the alarm will be triggered at a certain value, if by idling back the temp never actually got very much above this value, it will be OK, it didn't sieze and you started it when back home so all sounds good enough for now to at leat chase the reason it went off...did you confirm an overheat?

cheers fnq

Splash

12-10-2007, 09:12 PM

woudl the alarm sound straight away without load if the vro was not working?

Poppets/stats - still have to go through same pain... :-(

Splash

12-10-2007, 09:16 PM

did no tconfirm an overheat - did nto want to be messing around with cowl off just beofre dusk on the watr.. :-(

Splash

Splash

12-10-2007, 09:18 PM

if i see the pee hole water ok - do i still assume it is overheating?

SPlash

12-10-2007, 09:21 PM

Splash,

Constant tone "beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep" is overheat condition, rapid "beep, beep, beep, beep" is no oil condition. Which did you get?

Continuing to run the engine in an overheat condition is not a good thing. However, a quick compression test will tell you if you did any damage.

The reason it would not overheat at home on the muffs is that it is "free running" and that does not produce much heat. When the engine is actually making power thats when a lot of heat is produced.

Given after your thermo saga you actually got it running and all was well then the problem would seem to be elsewhere. How much (if any) cranking the engine without water connected to it have you done? You should basically never crank an engine without water connected to it.

It could also be a crook temp sensor (it happens occasionally) or salted up cooling galleries around the heads.

Do you have or do you know anyone with an IR temp gun? if so take it out again and get it to go off and then check the cylinder head temps. Should be around 50 degrees C. Alternately, you can by from BRP heat sticks which you push on the engine and they melt different colours at different temps.

Cheers

Splash

12-10-2007, 09:32 PM

Thanks BM.

COnstant BEEP.

Made sure I cranked with donk a little in water.

Will ask around for the IR temp gun - may be rare in GOVE.

SPlash

12-10-2007, 10:00 PM

Any marine mechanic should have one. I use mine all the time.

Instantly know where hot spots are in cylinder heads and the general operating temp. Can't be without it really.

Cheers

Splash

12-10-2007, 10:03 PM

Thansk BM. WIl ltry.

Would clogged cooling galeries restrict water from coming out of pee hole?

SPlsh

Sea-Dog

12-10-2007, 10:20 PM

I once had an old Chrysler outboard that had been left sitting for a while.

The oil in the fuel mix had gummed the bottom of the carby bowls.

The only way I got it going was by flushing out the carbies with fresh fuel.

I used a rather unorthodox method of flushing - full tilt up and squeeze the primer bulb. The tilt was enough to take the pressure of the floats off the seats and allow fuel into the bowl to wash the crap out of the bottom. The excess fuel came out of the carbies somewhere and I caught most of it in rags placed beneath the carbies.

When I started reading thru the thread, I thought it may have something to do with slight difference in angle when boat was on lawn at home (level) and when it was at an angle when sitting on the ramp. How could that affect it - dunno :-/

Then I started thinking about crap being stirred up in the float bowls during the trip to the ramp. The possible effect - blocking one of the narrow tubes or jets in the carby - Dunno :-/

Then when I read about the alarm going off after a few minutes of running. I thought maybe it is a low oil alarm if you have an onboard oil tank. BM's comment about the different alarm signals seems to have killed that idea. I was hoping that a quick top up of the oil tank would stop the alarm.

Hopefully the starting problem and the alarm are unrelated.

Perhaps you could try cleaning the carbies out - it couldn't hurt if you don't lose anything or damage anything in the process.

Oh well, just a couple of thoughts.

Best of luck with finding the solution.

Splash

12-10-2007, 10:25 PM

Thansk Sea dog. Novel solution to a plausible problem - well done!

SPlash

FrankFWM

12-10-2007, 10:38 PM

Splash - not sure anyone can answer that on here...

It depends, if it was a temp alarm, then it depends how hot it got or if it was just on the temp that is high enough to set the alarm off without actualy cooking it... if water was coming out the tell tail, then I think you will be all right.... but it's hard to know over a forum...

I know with Yamaha's the alarm is set to a pretty conservative temp, so you actualy haven't done any damager at all when the alarm goes off... not sure about your brand of donk....

When th alarm when off, and you travelled for 2 k's back to the ramp what rpm's would you have been doing?

If you were doing 5000 then I would be concerned...

12-10-2007, 10:56 PM

Splash,

YES, you can have a great telltale and a cooling problem at the same time.... Different engines circulate water differently though.

I had this a little while back with a customers 50 Yammy. Engine was overheating and setting off the alarm. Changed the impeller (rest of waterpump was good) had an excellent telltale but after a few mins on the muffs the engine overheated again.

Changed the thermo and all seemed good. Took it for a water test (to produce power and hence heat) and it failed again.... (

Ended up removing the powerhead, removing the exhaust sideplates and the cylinder head and the sideplate area was clogged up with salt and the cylinder head galleries were a mess and the galleries around the cylinders themselves were a mess..

Typical Yamaha for you though, very narrow cooling galleries which work fine on a new or internally clean engine but give them a few yrs of salt build up and grief is around the corner.......

Anyway, that fixed it and all was fine.

Sea dog, it would have been easier to whip the carbs off the intake manifold and strip them down and blow out with carb cleaner and a compressor!!! But if it worked, it worked!!

But thats a Chrysler for ya! The best engine in their day bar none....

Cheers

Splash

13-10-2007, 06:58 AM

THansk BM.

Back in Dec 06, I removed the water jackets and did discover they were full of salt - which were then cleaned out. Could the sitting of the donk for so long have caused another build up of salt - even though I was flushing regularly?

Can I reuse the gaskets for water jacket if I take them off again?

SPlash

13-10-2007, 07:08 AM

Did you do the heads cooling galleries? Or is that what you are referring to? If so then they won't have salted up from sitting.

Splash

13-10-2007, 07:17 AM

I removed the jackets off the top of the cylinders. Are these the heade cooling galleries?

FrankFWM

13-10-2007, 07:30 AM

You may wish to try flushing it with a strong solution of Salt-X in the flushing bag/drum...

It may break down the salt build up in the water galleries... and save some work for you...

Frank

Splash

13-10-2007, 07:36 AM

THanks - What is Salt-X - Any equivalents? I need to make do with what we have here in GOVE - Not much..

13-10-2007, 07:58 AM

Save your money Splash. Those salt removers are proven not to work.

Splash

13-10-2007, 08:04 AM

Hi BM - So what do u suggest - do I go in again and operate (remove water jackets for inspection)?

Splash

13-10-2007, 08:29 AM

There are cooling galleries on the underside of the head also. So you have gotten to only one side.

You need to establish that you are actually overheating. Take the cowl off and go for a burn on a nice flat day till the buzzer sounds and then check the temp around the heads. Even without tools you can tell if its too hot. Correct temp will see the heads warm to the touch but not uncomfortable. If they are hot and you need to remove your fingers its too hot.

Did you get the thermos and poppets in the right way when you put it back to gether previously?

I would also be inclined to drop the leg again and check your impeller.

Cheers

Splash

13-10-2007, 08:33 AM

thanks - will go for another spin with a borrowed ir temp gun.

How coudl the impeller be cause?

What should I be looking for wiht impeller?

SPlash

13-10-2007, 08:50 AM

You may well be pumping water but not pumping enough water. It is just something I would check before I started pulling off cylinder heads.

Check the obvious before delving in deeper. Saves time and in terms of a customers engine it saves them money too.

And from the repairers perspective it saves egg on the face if the problem was simpler than the job ended up being. Kinda hard to explain pulling the heads off if the problem turned out to be a crook impeller...

Splash

13-10-2007, 09:36 AM

bm-

OK - will remove leg again and check impeller out - but still dont know what to look for.. An impeller is a piece of rubber - how woudl i know if it is not pumping enough water? What should I be lookifg for once remvoed?

SPlash

Splash

13-10-2007, 09:46 AM

to confirm - must i have gear in reverse or forward before i remove that circlip in that connects the rod?

In I Go!

Splash

Splash

13-10-2007, 03:04 PM

WIll someone please remind me whic way the impellor sits in relation to it's shaft?

When I look down at shaft which way shoudl the impeller tabs be turned (CW or ACW)?

Also, when I pull the clutch rod up, is this forward or reverse?

Shoudl the impllor tabs be bent the same way as the shaft rotates?

Splash

FNQCairns

13-10-2007, 03:40 PM

Splash if you have the leg off, the shaft rotates clockwise looking down it and the impeler blades splay backwards from this clockwise rotation. Forget exactly whether up or down, could give you what I suspect but thats no good to you.
If leg is removed change gears at the controls and confirm at the upper terminating shift rod which direction it moves, hope that makes sense.

cheers fnq

Splash

13-10-2007, 05:00 PM

Thansk FNQ -

COmpleted = Leg back on with new impellor with tabs correct way.

Previosu uimpellor looked a bit more stiffer than the new one i just put in.

Also significant wear in the metal bottom plate showing deepish groove of impellor movement.

Water out of pee hole appears stronger when started again.

My wife has alos detected an improved sound - but I cannot pick it yet.

I plan to give it a spin early tomorrow with another test.

Splahs
SPlash

Splash

13-10-2007, 05:38 PM

Just thoughyt of somehting esle too.

I have after-market water hoses from thermostat housing (underneath exhaust chamnber) to cylinder heads X 2.

These hoses ar enot molded(shaped) like orignal hoses were. Hence the curve bit (throat) of hose is reduced by around 40-50% ID. Obviosuly, this reduction in ID at curve may imapct on water delivery to head - and maybe causing overheating and consequent alarm.

Could I be onto somehting here???

SPlash

FNQCairns

13-10-2007, 06:02 PM

$&^$^%&^(^$(^$^$$ YES!!!!!!! restriction on the ID.

I thought you did the impeller last time??

Best of luck on the run.

cheers fnq

Splash

13-10-2007, 07:30 PM

Yes, I installed a new impellor (in fact entire water pump kit) Jan 07.

Poppets and stats replaced Dec 06.

After new impellor installed in Jan, took boat out for spin about 4 times - without a hitch - from overheating at least.

THen, on the 4th run (Feb 07) (on the way back), I stumbelled over rocks - steep rise in shallow water - without warning on sounder or GPS (going around 2-3 knots).

This imapct fckd my prop and hence prop shaft.

Insurance job (into dealer to repalce prop and prop shaft) - Feb 07.
They exchanged the whole bottom leg which included a water pump, shafts, etc. with a second hand one.

I had to force them (the dealer) to return my new water pump kit before I left for GOVE.

Have not taken it out since this repair (apart from my spurt yesterday).

Today, I inserted my new impellor back where it belonged.

Long story - but you wanted to know... :-)

Anyway, is this hose crease significant in restriction of delivery water to head?

How do I overcome this with after market water hoses?

SPlash

Took boat

FNQCairns

13-10-2007, 07:45 PM

Interesting story, good to know they didn't get away with your new parts at least, any restriction is too much, it will be and is the weak link that may see you stuck miles from nowhere at some time.

Will shortening them help? you may be able to push each end onto each fitting further and straighten the kink?

cheers fnq

Splash

13-10-2007, 08:02 PM

Intersting day's events...

I shoudl have mentioned this earlier but just occured to me before (2 hours ago) - after stearing at these hoses and realise wht I have done... :-(

I will play with these hose kinks tonight (next 2 hours).

I wonder why they kink when they are specially for this model donk..??

I still don't understand when water is freely coming out of pee hole, overheating can still occur?

Splash

FNQCairns

13-10-2007, 08:48 PM

Yeah I have a little black book with all my outboard stuff written in it, most anyway, spent today playing with an efi car that was built in 1985, be thanfull your engine is not EFI and as old as that, overheating would be a walk in the park!

The pee holes is just an indicator, the water reaches here (the engine is flooded)before it gets to do any real cooling (which means flow), all around the base of the powerhead are drains these work regardless of the thermostat opening, when enough heat reaches the thermostat it opens and allows lots of flow to circulate all galleries to dump instead of some sitiing with minimal flow.

From memory even the genuine ones can have at least a crease where yours is kinked, not ideal, aftermarket sometimes is not better sometimes it is, 50% kink is too much IMO.

Good luck.

cheers fnq

Splash

13-10-2007, 10:17 PM

Have decreased the kinks a little... I initially over-estimated the % "kinkiness" before - probably 30% kink (not 40-50% as mentioned previosuly) - now (after rejigging hoses) only about 2% kink.

I dont know is this will make much difference...

SPlash

FrankFWM

13-10-2007, 10:59 PM

Splash,

Even if that was not the cause of your problem - it will only help :)

Frank

13-10-2007, 11:04 PM

A test run will tell...

Fact is all ran well till you had a changeover box fitted. So this may be the cause of your issues.

You mentioned big wear on the base (wear) plate of your pump. When you fitted your w'pump kit this should have included a new wearplate. Did you transfer all your new components to the replacement leg?

Cheers

Splash

13-10-2007, 11:16 PM

Yes BM. - Entire kit transferred over - including new and unworn wear plate.

DO u think this wear on the plate may be somehting of significane?

SPlash

13-10-2007, 11:42 PM

Didn't you mention "deep groove" wear on your new wear plate???? This is odd.

Fact is your engine has a problem. Somewhere between your assessment and description of issues and my (and others) understanding of these issues there is an issue...

The results of overheat tone and subsequent test with a heat gun will tell us a bit.

When it overheats, shut it down and start taking temps quickly. You can do it with the engine runnign but the ignition system interference will throw your readings off if your too close to a high tension lead. Therefore, if the engine is off there will be no ignition issues.

Cheers

Splash

13-10-2007, 11:56 PM

THanks BM.

Deep groove evident in wear plate with w/pump kit dealer had supplied with this changeout bottom leg.

I have re-inserted my new w/pump kit back into leg today after leg pull activity.

I purchased this w/pump kit brand new in Jan 07, inserted it, ran 4 times without a hitch, then messed up my prop htting a rock. Dealer replaced whole bottom leg in Feb 07 with a compelte second hand unit - which included an oldish looking second hand water pump kit.

Hope this makes sense.

Very curiosu to know what impact this deep groove in wear plate may have on impellor efficeincy and resulting water flow up through leg, etc..

sa[plsh

FrankFWM

14-10-2007, 12:02 AM

ahhh - so the deep groove may have been from the previous motor it was on...

Frank

Splash

14-10-2007, 12:07 AM

yes - that's right Frank - thanks for clairfying.

Another piece to jigsaw puzzle and I am certainly feedign you guys with plenty of pieces...

What impact on impellor perfomeance do u think this deepish groove has?

SPlh

FrankFWM

14-10-2007, 12:13 AM

Hi Splash - not sure if that in itself would impact the amount of water throughput enough to cause an overheat - but I would imagine it would shortent the life of a new impeller - ie. if you changed the impeller, I would change the plate as well... or the whole pump.

Frank

Splash

14-10-2007, 12:17 AM

THanks Frank - Bottom leg now has brand new water pump kit - no wear.

FNQCairns

14-10-2007, 07:25 AM

Splash it all sounds good, you have the engine back to where it was after you worked so hard to service it a year or so a go, pretty pathetic the people who changed legs for you didn't inspect both pumps and fit the better one (15min work), anyone doing it for themselves would have, if it were the service agents engine they would have - guaranteed! They created a joker in the pack that could have stranded you or worse.

The stuff that crops up here on ausfish from time to time just keeps confirming to me why I get nervous if I cannot do something for myself and need to pay for help, shouldn't be this way.

Mate hope it starts, you got a little run last time so that should help.

2% kink??, - 20% kink suck it and see, ever fitted a temp guage, money well spent and very very easy to do, will take a lump of the guess work out for the future.

cheers fnq

Splash

14-10-2007, 02:14 PM

OK FNQ.

I agree with you on the dealers and doing as much yourself.

OK - here is the G O!

Just got back from 5 hours of boating - hooning around the bay.

Still having startup issues - need to raise leg to start on most occasions - even out on bay after anchoring up.

I cained and cained to try and get my alram going again. It occurred once -during a big cain and after 4 hours of boating (last time last week it took no more than 3 mins after boating)!

I switched off cowling and felt both heads - too hot to toch for more tahn 5 secs.

I then unplugged one of the sensors form head. Started it and no more alarm. Ithen conencted it again and re0satred - no more alarm. ANother 2 caining sessions after - and still no alarm.

Did not have the IR temp gun - soirry BM.

Weather wise, probably worst in 10 months - big chop.

I am amking progress but the two issues still remain -

Sloppy starting and overheating ( I think)

Next?

Splash

Sea-Dog

14-10-2007, 06:10 PM

I still reckon you'd do well to clean out the carbies.

A bit of muck floating around could be the cause of starting problems.

Perhaps if a partial blockage is causing her to run lean - that wouldn't help temperature staying down (maybe?)

Even if that isn't the problem - its something you can then eliminate.

What do you reckon BM?

Cheers, Ross

Splash

14-10-2007, 06:40 PM

BEst way to clean carbies out?

Good input Sea Dog

FNQCairns

14-10-2007, 07:01 PM

Splash thats just great you got on the water in a proper way, must have felt great!, can you elaborate on the overheat? was it during a WOT run, WOT is your WOT??:) Lugging causes higher heat conditons. If you turned it off straight away then lifted the cowl and felt the heads/engine, all of this must have taken up to 2 minutes, heat soak where the alum actually gets hotter again due to the water draining away would have taken place, yet you could touch it for 5 seconds - thats not real hot.

You a boilermaker or a desk jocky? I no longer have the reference material to find at what temp the overheat alarm sounds on your engine (70deg C??) I have seen engines alarm early, at wot speed the pump vanes lay down and water pressure does most of the cooling flow any restriction at this stage and it runs the chance of getting hot.

Thermistors can alarm early, like BM says, some way of obtaining a true temp reading would be nice but especially now, as most is sorted, it's on the water and useable at least with common sense, a compression test would be usefull now as well.
You can pull the sensor place it in a pot on the stove only touching water and measure at what temp it makes circuit and at what temp it breaks circuit with a muiltimeter, you badly need some numbers to relate directily to the engine.

Is the staring a still true problem or is it just a nuisance you now have some confidence in ATM?

cheers fnq

Splash

14-10-2007, 07:11 PM

Thanks FNQ.

I think we are making progress.. thanks to all of you!

WOT stands for????

I will now chase some numbers down...and report back ASAP.

I am a Desk jockey - engineer.

What does pume vane lay down mean?

Srating still remains an issue - even if I am boating for a few hours. Stop for a fish and then start again - i still have to raise the leg out of water to scrap together a coughing starting - every time I start in fact.

Splash

Timmy94

14-10-2007, 07:12 PM

WOT = Wide Open Throttle eg Top Speed.

FNQCairns

14-10-2007, 07:31 PM

Yeah how many RPM does it reach flatout =WOT.
I know from experience I cannot touch the head on one of these for 3 seconds after a good high speed run but I can after a run at cruising speed then left to idle for a minute.

About the pump vanes when the pump is spun at high RPM the vanes lay down and no longer forcefully contact the entire pump wall (you noticed the concentric way the pump fits?) this means that the water pressure past the leg is what drives cooling. Here the pump itself becomes a restriction to flow, anyway it means that the pump should be out of the overheat picture now and either a restriction in the powerhead, your hoses still??, popets, thermostat or an as yet unseen buildup of that white gunk is hiding somewhere or the thermistor is alarming too early.

I would follow the thermistor as the least invasive method to eliminate at this point in time and it will give you some numbers to relate.

cheers fnq

Splash

14-10-2007, 09:33 PM

THanks FNQ and Timmy.

Yes, that only alram reading was about 90% (maybe more - did not remember if it was flatout) of the WOT I reckon (I will consult the specs for max op. speed/RPM and concur later). That was the fastest I cained it today and it was this only event that caused the alarm.

Is it normal for alarm to trigger at WOT?

When you refer to WOT - is this the specified speed as per manual or the WOT my rig is doing on water?

FNQ, You state that you cannot touch one of your heads for 3 secs after a good speed run. DOesn't this this imply overheating (from all the threads/posts I have on this forum about not being able to toch the head at high temps)?

Intersting to note that water pressure does most of the cooling at or around WOT - very important key learning for me!

I am more confident about my water hoses now after re-jigging them last night.

Is the sensor you refer to the same as the thermister you refer to?

What are your thoughts on my experiment today about dicsonnecting one of the sensors form one head with consequent alram disappearing after re-connection?

My thermistors are glued/embedded into a 12 mm cavity into side of head/water jacket. How do I remove this thermistor without dmagin git?

I woudl also liek to note a big step forward in diagnosing this overheating issue as Friday night, I had the overheating alarm trigger off after 2 mins of planing. TOday, after 4 hours of planning, skooting and general boating (and after a big WOT event), the only overheating event occured. Why this big difference in time between alarm events??

I also have this starting issue still unresolved. These may be or may not be inter-related. THougths on my sloppy starting events?

Best method to clean my carbies out?

Splash

FrankFWM

14-10-2007, 09:48 PM

[Hi Splash,

See my comments in bold

quote=Splash;698218]THanks FNQ and Timmy.

Yes, that only alram reading was about 90% of the WOT I reckon (I will consult the specs for max op. speed/RPM and concur later). That was the fastest I cained it today and it was this only event that caused the alarm.

Is it normal for alarm to trigger at WOT?

No - that is not normal - perhaps there is too much of a kink or there is another problem? still salt blocked galleries ?

Intersting to note that water pressure does most of the cooling at or around WOT - very important key learning for me!

An alternative to a temp sensor or as well as a temp sensor you may consider putting a water pressure guage on your dash - then if you pick up a plastic bag, you will notice the drop in wate rpressure before the temp alarm goes off giving you more of a chance of avoidoing cooking the motor... I used to have two of them on my twin installation - it saved me from plastic bags twice. My new motor has a speedo take water from the same water intake that cools the engine so now I just use that to do the same thing.

I am more confident about my water hoses now after re-jigging them last night.

Is the sensor you refer to the same as the thermister you refer to?

What are your thoughts on my experiment today about dicsonnecting one of the sensors form one head with consequent alram disappearing after re-connection?

I think you need to do a test with an IR heat gun - that will tell you if you have a faulty temp sensor - but it doesn't sound like that to me...

I woudl also liek to note a big step forward in diagnosing this overheating issue as Friday night, I had the overheating alarm trigger off after 2 mins of planing. TOday, after 4 hours of planning, skooting and general boating (and after a big WOT event), the only overheating event occured. Why this big difference in time between alarm events??

The Kinks you reduced - have obviously allowed more water into the galleries and hence improved the cooling - perhaps the kinks are still too much?

I also have this starting issue still unresolved. These may be or may not be inter-related. THougths on my sloppy starting events?

Best method to clean my carbies out?

If this has not been done for a long time, I would do it anyway....

Splash[/quote]

Regards,

Frank

Splash

14-10-2007, 10:03 PM

THansk Frank.

The hoses must have some degree of curavture to allow for difference in height of two connections. I have taken as much of this curvature out as possible. I guess the word 'kink' was too extreme. The radius of the curavture of the hoses is large enough not to warrant calling them kinks - IMHO anyway.

Blocked galleries - Looks liek I may have to remove powerhead and go the whole hog - bottom and top of heads.

I will invest in a water temp guage and water pressure guage - thanks.

I will attempt to borrow an IR heat gun form someone and maybe test soon.

Why did the alarm turn off when I re-connected the temp sensor on the head?

HInts for cleaning out these carbies?

Splash

FNQCairns

14-10-2007, 10:06 PM

Is it normal for alarm to trigger at WOT?

NO not normal.

NQ, You state that you cannot touch one of your heads for 3 secs after a good speed run. DOesn't this this imply overheating (from all the threads/posts I have on this forum about not being able to toch the head at high temps)?

It's a rule of thumb, a boilermaker will be able to touch an overheated engine for 10 seconds, understand that overheat has to start somewhere and continues till the paint burns so their is a fair range. But an engine that is running well and cooling well is used in a normal sense a person will be able to touch the head and it will in no way feel like touching a cars tappet cover.

Is the sensor you refer to the same as the thermister you refer to?

yes sorry one and the same.

What are your thoughts on my experiment today about dicsonnecting one of the sensors form one head with consequent alram disappearing after re-connection?

The engine was in overheat as far aas the sensor was conserned (if it is correct) you then ran the engine at a lower RPM which cooled it to below the point the sensor no would trigger the alarm.

My thermistors are glued/embedded into a 12 mm cavity into side of head/water jacket. How do I remove this thermistor without dmagin git?

Sorry I was thinking of another engine that just pull out, from memory yours needs to have the head cover pulled, that glue is just a rubber plug and you should only have one??

I woudl also liek to note a big step forward in diagnosing this overheating issue as Friday night, I had the overheating alarm trigger off after 2 mins of planing. TOday, after 4 hours of planning, skooting and general boating (and after a big WOT event), the only overheating event occured. Why this big difference in time between alarm events??

Going slow creates less heat = less for the cooling to cope with, the converse also applies. Take note of the RPM (which was?) I still assume at this speed water pressure is doing the cooling, dont forget we do not even know if it was a dinky di overheat??????

I also have this starting issue still unresolved. These may be or may not be inter-related. THougths on my sloppy starting events?

Starting problems relate to tuning/compression/fuel lots of stuff overall, your engine starts and idles on the low speed fuel circuit, many times a simple mixture screw setting change can make a big difference but so can better linkage synronisation and higher compression, the simplest to try is to change mixture, it cannot hurt the engine, it will either be harder to start or easier or the same, find the standardised number of turns each screw should be set to in your manual and check yours against this, does your engine sneeze during warmup? or when hot at idle.

cheers fnq

14-10-2007, 10:16 PM

Splash,

Might be time to rip the heads off and look for 3 things:

1) salt buildup in the cooling galleries

2) crook head gaskets

3) cracked block or corroded cylinder liner

ok,

1) salt buildup as previously discussed

2) leaky head gaskets can in some cases bleed exhaust gas into the cooling system which will "bubble" the water flow which will create inefficient cooling and cause an overheat

3) your engine is in the period of "lost foam casting" unless I'm mistaken and this process had some big problems. What commonly occured was the cylinder casting would get eaten away and eventually the head gasket didn't have enough area to adequately seal on.

Go to Supercheap, spend $30 and buy a screw in compression gauge. Test comp yourself (crank the engine over for the same number of seconds on each cylinder, plugs out of all cylinders) and tell us what you get.

Cheers

Splash

14-10-2007, 10:31 PM

Thansk FNQ.

I do nto use premix fuel (hence cannot change mixture ratios) as I have VRO.

Can I do anything to the VRO to cahnge fuel/oil ratios?

This donk was linked/synced by a recognised donk dealer in Melbourne (beofre departure to GOVE in FEB this year).

Shoudl I remove the powerhead to inspect all galeries?

I think I will create a list of things I need to do - stand by.

Splash

Splash

14-10-2007, 10:38 PM

Thansk BM.

Comforting news on the casting front. I will now search for a few lemon peels inside and maybe create another artificial reef... :-((((

I'm off to bed.

SPlash

15-10-2007, 07:54 AM

Who in Melb worked on it?

STUIE63

15-10-2007, 10:17 AM

I think FNQ meant the air fuel mixture screws on the carbies not the oil fuel mixture in the VRO. best of luck
Stuie

Splash

15-10-2007, 12:36 PM

HI BM - Footscray Marine did the Linc/Sync and PortPhillipBoating Center Point Cook did the leg changeout.

SPlash

Splash

15-10-2007, 05:55 PM

ashh

15-10-2007, 06:12 PM

You dont want the engine 'running', all you want to do is get the cylinders piston moving a few times.
the compresion tester screws into where you unscrew the spark plug from, all you are doing is getting the piston to move up and down in the cylinder a few times and the compressed air within the cylinder you are testing will give you a reading on the dial of the compression tester.
Few safety tips:
Be sure to disconnect the leads from all spark plugs so they dont fire.
Put in neutral.
Remove prop if your really podantic.

Splash

15-10-2007, 06:13 PM

I just spoek to a boat mechanic and he stated that these starting issues may be caused form running too rich.

Your thoughts on these comments?

Splsh

Splash

15-10-2007, 06:15 PM

thanks for good tips ASH!

15-10-2007, 09:07 PM

Don't need water Splash to comp test.

Those carby's wont have adjustable slow speed circuits so the only real way it could be too rich on startup is a float level problem int he carbs or your starting procedure is off and you are flooding it.

Cheers

Splash

15-10-2007, 09:23 PM

thanks bm.

Splash

15-10-2007, 09:32 PM

how can a too rich mixture cause my starting issues?

Splash

16-10-2007, 06:51 PM

Ok Team,

I measured compression for very first time in my life. DOn;t knwo If i did it right.

Cold engine, 3-4 secs per hole with all plugs and disconected.

All 4 holes read 90psi +/- 2to3 psi.

Should I have had it in WOT position?

Should I have warmed up engine first?

THis engine is rooted isn't it....?

Splsh

17-10-2007, 08:06 AM

Hmmmm.... well, they're all even....

They seem low though.

FNQCairns

17-10-2007, 08:49 AM

Yeah they seem too low to be even, but stranger things have happened.

The cheap testers can have a large variability, so it could be reading even 15% low and consistant, the one on the shelf next to it could read 5% high consistantly. Do cold only Splash, it's good practice to never remove a hot plug for the threads sake.
Did you have a good charge in your battery? and did you have all plugs out or only the one you were testing? Variability here will give variable results when trying to relate.

A TRUE 90 is useable but can lead to some of the problems you have experienced.

cheers fnq

FNQCairns

17-10-2007, 10:07 AM

Hey Splash when you pulled the head months ago can you remember what shape the top of the pistons were? ie flat or did they have a pronounced raise in them? I was thinking your engine now is a looper but it may be crossflow cannot remember what/where the 110hp fits but suspect crossflow, both are v4s but have different carbs the crossflow is a pain to quickly adjust mixture (but not that hard to do).
If it is crossflow and the compression can be believed I would consider another engine in the future, but if it is a looper it may be worth more stuffing around/time and a few dollars spent.

cheers fnq

Splash

17-10-2007, 05:34 PM

THanks .

I think it is the looper someone once said on this froum. It has the bubble/bum profile as the exhasut chamber - is this mean of looper?

I borrowed a high quality compression tester form a car dealer - nota cheap one off the shelf.

All plugs were out during test and battery is fully charged.

Reef time?

Splash

17-10-2007, 05:36 PM

i think the piston heads had a proniounced raise on them

FNQCairns

17-10-2007, 05:42 PM

Ok mate, not good news, ran out of low cost directions to chase for good news now, buy a reliable auxillery and run your engine till you can justfiy another one??

It's a crossflow being a bubbleback and must be somewhere before 88ish, you could part it out?

cheers fnq

Splash

17-10-2007, 06:02 PM

1989 is the year.

WHen you "part it out" - what do u mean?

Splash

FNQCairns

17-10-2007, 06:11 PM

Sell the bit's, i thought the 110 finished before 89 but other bubbleback crossflows continued well into the 90s, just chewing the fat, you could always plonk another powerhead on it 2K USD + freight + sundries possibly $3k AUD to your door for a remanufacturered unit and you could fit a bigger HP powerhead like a 140 or even a looper will fit I think (not totally sure). A little research would be needed.

cheers fnq

Splash

17-10-2007, 06:24 PM

At this stage I cannot justify spending $15k on a new donk.

My neighbour 2 doors up just pulled a 115HP Johno from a boat to put a brand new 200Hp on his boat. The Johno is sitting and waiting for a home - $2000.

1994 Model # BJ115TLERC - Your thoughts please?

I know you will think I am simply buying more trouble...maybe I am, That's why it si $2k I guess.

But, the seller is a boat specialist and well regarded donk fixer in town.

I could have the compression tested and all those other things I am sure you guys can tell/warn me about...

Would love your feedback.

Also, do u think this low compression has somehting to do wiht overheating?

WOuldn't a good de-carb work and get the compression up?

Splash

shamus

17-10-2007, 07:17 PM

I wouldn;t expect low compression to to cause an engine to overheat, then again, I know more about car engines than outboards....

FNQCairns

17-10-2007, 07:25 PM

Splash if it is 94 it could be a looper or a crossflow bubble or a crossflow flatback, there were so many models each with their own differences from the mid 80s to the mid 90 on these engines, the one to look for is the looper, usually easy to recognise as the carbs look fairly different to your crossflow.

Compression and overheating probably not related they are all too even, yes give it a good decarbon but it's not as if one or two are low and a decarbon may pull them back up, still it's woth a try - if it has never been done before, re thinking backwards the looper is a totally different engine that is not interchangable with your crossflow. Think the loopers had the V6 legs also but it's all so long ago.

If it is a looper and it checks out as good grab it, if it is a crossflow and it checks out.... well you may have some parts that will fit as spares for later, the looper was a better engine in every respect than the crossflow but both were good engines.

cheers fnq

Splash

17-10-2007, 08:05 PM

What is a looper and why were they better?

How do i know if this 94 donk is a looper?

SPlash

FNQCairns

17-10-2007, 08:14 PM

Better because more efficient combustion, less fuel more torque, quieter, smoother, just better.

Ask the seller, if he is mech he will know, you will too just by looking at it considering how many times you have looked at yours, they are just different, they will never have a bubbleback (pretty sure), a torch down the plughole will reveal a flat piston not the lopsided and pushed up one in every crossflow, the carbs will look different to yours, they are better also.

cheers fnq

Splash

17-10-2007, 08:29 PM

why called a looper?

Splash

17-10-2007, 08:31 PM

My 110HP is an extra long shaft verison - 25".

Pros and cons of long vs shorter/standard shafts?

SPlash

Timmy94

17-10-2007, 08:31 PM

i think he means loopcharged but not 100%.

Timmy94

17-10-2007, 08:33 PM

The shaft is your transom size. Does your motor cavitate? If it does i think u need to go to a long shaft rather then exlong. If the fin above the prop is more than 100mm higher or lower than the transom u might need to choose a different length shaft.

Roughasguts

17-10-2007, 08:34 PM

Hi Smelly, geez your a persistant bugger, I would have set fire to that motor by now and be running a 5HP on her arse instead, (Ooops best not)

Anyway I'm thinking that if she starts with no back pressure Eg: out of the water but won't start in the water then she's lost spark in 1 of the cylinders.
So think you might have a buggered coil or loose wire. Cause your motor will start on 3 Cyl out the water but it won't like it in the water.

But you could check this by next time you run the motor out the water, pull of each plug lead and see if theres any change in RPM when/ if you notice no change by pulling off a spark plug lead then theres your faulty coil.

It certainly wouldn't be the first coil pack to go on a Johno.

FNQCairns

17-10-2007, 08:36 PM

They are loop charged with fuel/air, pretty much all modern engines are now days, possibly other variant also, hard to find a modern crossflow that was not designed more than 20 years ago.

It's a shame about your 110hp hope someone can think of away around the compression reading, worth it to you to buy a cheapy tester and double check using the same procedure??

cheers fnq

Splash

17-10-2007, 09:03 PM

Hi GUTS - Wondering when you were going to pop your head in... :-) You till remember my fav. photos hey ...

Guts - can i tell for spark - just by holding plug (still attached with wire) onto metal - outside the cylinder? ANyway else to check for faulty coil?

FNQ - was there a defined period of years when thes loppers were made - or when they started to make them??

SPlash

Thanks Timmy - will confirm length of shaft - can i tell without removing leg? BTW waht fin above the prop (I thought it was below the prop??)

Splash

17-10-2007, 09:10 PM

GUTS - which coil are u referring to:

Charge coil, Stator coil, Sensor coil or Ignition coil??

SPlash

Roughasguts

17-10-2007, 09:14 PM

He he yeah them photo's still badly burn't in to me retina.
Yep with the motor running just hold the wire just of some metal or even the spark plug it self.

Yeah you can check the coils with a multi meter, but that won't check them under load. If you have a multi meter just compare each coils OHM reading you know it might even be a dud spark plug lead.

But what is this thing over heating again, or is that cause she's down to running on 3 cyl Hmmm did you get full Rpm out of her before the alarm ? or did the motor sound flat and dull.

Roughasguts

17-10-2007, 09:17 PM

GUTS - which coil are u referring to:

Charge coil, Stator coil, Sensor coil or Ignition coil??

SPlash

The coil on the other end of the spark plug lead.

FNQCairns

17-10-2007, 09:40 PM

Splash, think mid 80s to not that long ago when they stopped selling the V4 2strokes.

cheers fnq

Splash

17-10-2007, 10:09 PM

Guts,

How do i hold the wire without getting zapped? - already did it once. :-((

I got close to WOT when alram just cam eon - not at lower speeds.

Motor did not soudn flat and dull.

SPLash

17-10-2007, 10:10 PM

Splash,

A looper does not have transfer port covers (which are on the outer face of the cylinder walls). The igniton power packs usually bolt over the top of them and they bolt in with 3/8 bolts.

Loopers have flat top pistons instead of deflector tops. They produce more power than crossflows however a trade of with loopers is they can be a bit lumpier on the idle.

Somewhere a few pages back I outlined a spark test that you should do. You need to be able to pull at minimum 1/2 inch long fat, blue spark.

I would double check those compression numbers with another gauge. Does an Ausfish member near you have one? Was your battery charged and engine cranking fast? Was the starter "throwing out" making it hard to consistently crank?

Cheers

Roughasguts

17-10-2007, 10:18 PM

Nah it doesn't sound like the coil is stuffed but as BM pointed out it maybe breaking down at higher rev's. Did you get a Tacho in the end ?

You can hold the spark plug lead with some rolled up rag or pliers whichever is closest.

Sorry I haven't read through the whole thread as yet but have the carby's been cleaned out, this over heating could be lean out I guess at higher rev's.

Splash

17-10-2007, 10:29 PM

THanks guys.

I am 100% confident donk is running rich becuase I always see wet plugs when I remove them. So I need to address that - how? Clean and tune?

I asked my neighbor for a guage 2 days ago and laughed at me - lent too many tools without returns - I don't blame him. I will buy a new gugae tomorrow. How do I calibrate this guage?

Does a looper have 2 or 4 carbies?

I am not toos sure if the tops of my pistions are round or flat.

I will test for spark tomorrow too.

Engine fully charged with no kick back from crank starter.

Splash

Splash

18-10-2007, 06:13 PM

what can i use to decarb my engine via the carbies?

Splash

18-10-2007, 07:54 PM

Here is what I read on another US Forum:

"Some years J/E built a whole series of low-compression motors. Like 90 to 95 lbs new. As long as they are all relatively even and the engine starts, compression is not an issue...."

Your thoughts on this statement?

SPlash

Roughasguts

18-10-2007, 08:54 PM

Splash I would get a can of CRC carby clean from super cheap or what ever.
remove all the spark plugs and spray the stuff in to the cylinders.
Turn the motor over a couple of times then spray some more down the plug holes. Let the stuff work for around 5-10 mins then hit your starter motor and let all the carby clean and associated carbon build up spit out.
Then put the plugs in and run the engine at around 1500 rpm and see what comes out. Then do a Compression test, it should come up a tad.

I personally wouldn't put Carby clean down your carby all that's going to do is wash the oil from the bore and crank case bearings.

Splash

18-10-2007, 09:08 PM

thanks guts. Will do that.

BTW, I have arranged for an IR temp gun for weekend. Will play.

Shoudl I check the solenoid primer?

Splash

Splash

18-10-2007, 09:18 PM

waht does the anti-ventialtion plate look like on the bottom leg?

Roughasguts

18-10-2007, 09:33 PM

Solenoid primer ahhh dunno, do you mean the choke solenoid that goes click when you push the ignition key in. If it goes click when you push the ignition key in and the butterflys close on the choke then that's all working as it should.

The anti cav plate or cav plate is simply that largish plate above your prop.

18-10-2007, 11:10 PM

Splash,

Have you checked your enrichener (primer solenoid) to make sure the red cam is in the off position??? If not you would be running with a degree of enrichment on constantly.

Engine tuner or power tune or various other names is a decarb product produced by the outboard manufacturers for removing excess carbon. Follow the directions on the can. I prefer the Merc product the best. They all go in via the carbs.

All V4's have 4 carbs. 2 upper (1 unit) and 2 lower (1 unit).

Most OMC (and other brands for that matter) v6 engines run comps around 90-100psi.

Cheers

Splash

18-10-2007, 11:33 PM

thanks BM.

Will double check the red cam position.

Do you use your decarb through your carbies or through the plug holes - like what GUTS prefers?

If most OMC (and other brands for that matter) v6 engines run comps around 90-100psi, why are my measures of 90 psi considered too low?

I don't think I have a V4 - because i only see two(2) carbies. THoughts?

Splash

Splash

19-10-2007, 12:37 AM

When I tested for compression, I did not pull the lanyard switch to disable the ignition system. Could I have fried the CD units or coils?

During this compression test (with all plugs out) I did not use water.

Could I have dried/cooked my water pump impellor?

Splash

FNQCairns

19-10-2007, 06:13 AM

Could I have dried/cooked my water pump impellor?

No they are very hardy today I have a mate who starts his for 5 seconds before the ramp (i cringe every time) and it just keeps on working - for years now BUT only you know what you have put yours through.

I don't think I have a V4 - because i only see two(2) carbies.

You will see only 2 carb bodys but each has 2 barrels.

When I tested for compression, I did not pull the lanyard switch to disable the ignition system. Could I have fried the CD units or coils?

Yes you could have done some damage, but the odds are you did not, it's not good practice but done all the time most will see no problem from it.

A decarbon will not hurt but probably will not make any difference either. $ pots all with stuck rings to an identical amount? These engines need to do 4000+h to wear out, rare for one to get there, the owners usually kill them way before those hours, 4 pots low comp in each but identical = worn out engine + pisiton slap, wrist pin wear which is very common and everything else that goes with lots of hours. If it was a commercial engine at one time then possible a rec motor hardly ever gets to wear out, if they are not killed they will corrode first.

Apart from simple checks you need numbers a person can trust/make sense of,
comp, temp, WOT RPM, also you need to consider and tool up for re-setting the carb float levels to spec.

cheers fnq

19-10-2007, 08:23 AM

Splash I think its time to hand it to a BRP dealer and get them to go over it and address the relevant issues.

We aren't getting anywhere at any great rate and its not your fault but i'm sure many things are being lost in the translation.

Actually don't take it to a dealer who sells new engines because you will definitely be told its cactus regardless of th etruth. They have to sell new engines to keep their franchise. So find an independant guy to have a look.

Or you could pack it on a crate and freight it to me in Melb to look at!! :)

Cheers

marshy

19-10-2007, 08:45 AM

Hi splash, have read trough this whole thread with great interest. I think BM has hit the nail on the head with the primer solenoid. make sure it is in the off position[ lever parallel with primer body]. If it is not it will produce the starting fault you described, I know from personal experience. Don't know if it would cause overheating though. Marshy.

Splash

19-10-2007, 04:56 PM

Interesting news boys.

I have colelcted a wad of tools form work.

Got home just beofre and run my engine on idle for about 10 mins.

THe IR temp gun reads 44 dec C on right hand thermostat cover but 38 deg C on the left t-stat cover. THis is interesting and woudl liek your thoughts..

I also measured the head temps - both same at 47 degC. I know I have to measure on full load - that's tomorrow.

RIght, I have a bendalight, multimeter, pressure guage and IR temp gun for a whoel weekend.

Tell me what else to measure?

Splash

Splash

19-10-2007, 05:00 PM

Hi BM - where in Melbourne are you. DO u know those 2 dealers I mentioned prior?

Marshy - primer solenid is in correct position.

Splsh

Splash

19-10-2007, 05:01 PM

Hi BM - the freight I pay to send will cost more than what the donk is worth! No thanks but thanks for offer.

Marshy - primer solenid is in correct position.

Splsh

Splash

19-10-2007, 05:06 PM

FNQ - New carbie kits ready for me to cllecot in Cairns...Maybe two weeks to get her..

SPlash

19-10-2007, 05:19 PM

What page did you mention some melb dealers on Splash?

Splash

19-10-2007, 05:23 PM

Hi BM - DUnno - it's there somewhere...

Anyway - thoughts on my new finding?

Splash

19-10-2007, 05:50 PM

What head temp does the overheating alaram start ?

19-10-2007, 05:58 PM

Salted heads perhaps Splash? Hard to say.

Typical max is around 170 degrees f or approx 70 degrees C.

You should see about 55 degrees C.

This can and should be done on the trailer at the ramp. Engine in gear (in the water of course), reversed in to the typical depth the engine sits at when in the water and knocking out say 4000+rpm. Run it like that for 5 mins and check temps (while running).

Splash

19-10-2007, 06:32 PM

Thanks BM.

What temp shoudl i see at the t-stat housings?

SPlsh

Splash

19-10-2007, 06:43 PM

FNQCairns

19-10-2007, 06:54 PM

Hi splash if you do it on the water, no need to rush too much just be efficient, you are reading the alum surface temp not the water temp, it will take a little while to equalise.

Just slow down from whatever speed you were running at, select neutral with the engine running, hook the engine full lock walk down the back and take your time (within reason).

If you turn the engine off straight after a fast run the engine could actually be hotter 2 minutes after or not much different at every other rpm, than when you turned it off, due to heat sink as a result of the water draining away so you can do it that way also.

cheers fnq

Splash

19-10-2007, 09:24 PM

SOme great thoughts there FNQ - logical.

THe weather appears better for tomorrow so will be able to do alot more on water..

Spls

19-10-2007, 10:13 PM

BM - I think I will go close to WOT and attempt to trigger alarm and then slwo to idel and then remove cowling and lunge back to take those temp readings whislt on water. SHoudl be interesting...

Just one more thing - can I remove those sensors without havgn to remove the water jackets?

SPlsh

To late mate..

You want your readings "live", not after pulling up from 4500rpm, getting to the stern, removing the cowl, positioning your body and FINALLY taking a temp reading.

As I said run it on the trailer at full noise if you like and assess from there....

Do it on a shit day when no-one is using the ramp and spend some quality time assessing the exact issues with your engine....

The temp sensors are an external fit to your cylinder heads.

Cheers

Splash

20-10-2007, 01:46 PM

HI Team.

Just back from a boating event and the results are in! ALL BAD NEWS :-((

Took it very close to WOT (after genle crusing around for 5 mins) and BANG - overheat alarm is triggered.

40 secs later I have the IR Temp GUn on each head - whilst at idle.

Head 1 - 84 degC.
Head 2 - 75 degC.

This means that the sensors are working as they should and I DO have a real overheating issue.

Next steps?

Ditch or not to ditch?

Splash

Roughasguts

20-10-2007, 03:07 PM

Don't ditch it splash, hows the water pressure at those speeds.
It can't be that good if the flow ain't good and the pressure is down she's not going to cool that well is it.

Question did the temp alarm stop after it idled for a little while.

Splash

20-10-2007, 03:23 PM

dunno water pressure - what's a pressure guage worth? is it worth going this far?

How do i measure the ater pressure?

Yes, the laram stopped after it idled for a little while.

Splsh

Roughasguts

20-10-2007, 05:35 PM

A water pressure gauge is around a hundred bucks, I think there a good investment you could also get a temp gauge, I think there a bit dearer.

But they stay with the boat regardless of what motor you got, you just hook them up.

I guess you got a water out let vent on your motor how warm is that to the touch.

The pee stream could well be cold, but the exhaust vent, on your motor, gets a lot warmer, if you see steam well that ain't right, it's way to hot then.

Splash

20-10-2007, 05:58 PM

thank sguts.

ok - performed surgery again.

Both heads off - again. Complete t-stat assy out - again.

No major obs but salt build up was pretty bad on the t-stats and inside their housing and thick rubber manifold.

Cooling galleries looked ugly as ever with salt crud - but did not appear clogged.

cylinder walls still have cross-hatching on them (all 4)

behind cylinder walls looked clean.

SPlash

Roughasguts

20-10-2007, 06:03 PM

Geez splash you can do that in a few minutes now, good on you.

So hows the missus going is she in Gove admiring your swearing and cursing and dirty hands, then dragging you off to a dinner party.

Or has Gove got it's merits no Relo's.

Splash

20-10-2007, 06:39 PM

HI Guts.

Practice makes perfect :-) :-(

Yes, Annie copped a mothful from me today when she somehow wrapped her fireline around the prop shaft after I told her not to fish at that point in time.. I reckon she copped the loudest wallaping I have ever given her in our 15 years together. I was about to throw her in withuot a life jacket actually... :-)

ANyway, it took me 35 mins to get tboth heads off and the t-stat cover - I luv this stuff :-(( I am typing with dirty hands BTW..and cleaning/scrubbing the crddy water jackets in the kitchen sink - again.

GOVE does have it's merrits - no family and plenty of fish - oh and free living expenses!

Anyway, what do I do about my findings with all this stuff off now..?

Waiting for next leads..from you guys

Splash
Anyway,

Splash

20-10-2007, 06:50 PM

Roughasguts

20-10-2007, 07:37 PM

Hmmm BIAS boating type that in to the putor.
They have a catalouge they can send out as well. I know theres BIAS boating places in NSW I guess QLD has it's equal.

Hmm Okay scrape all the crud out, Sink heh He, he your in the big Sh!t aren't you.

Anyway how are those poppets did the holes block up ? maybe they need to be drilled a tad bigger. Seems to me though that salt water will collect where your thermostat and poppets are then dry out, and then you have a problem with blockage and over heating.

I'm gonna have to look way back and see the pictures of your thermostat and poppets. See if theres any more Mods possible something like a drain or tap you could put in the rubber hose that goes to your thermostat. If you could put something like that in that will help flush and drain all the salt out.

Splash

20-10-2007, 07:58 PM

Thanks Guts! Any help is appreciated.

Donk 1: AJ110TXCEM 25" leg Johnson 110P 2-stroke 1989.
Donk 2: BJ115TLERC 19" leg Johnson 115HP 2-stroke 1994.

I currently have donk 1 on my boat and thinking of buying donk 2 for this same boat (transom 25") because I think my donk is stfd.

As you see, I am unable to simply change over motors with leg.

Q1: Does donk 1 powerhead have exactly same footpint as donk 2?
Q2: How do I remove the powerhead?
Q3: What is the better option - change legs or change powerheads.
Q4: Do both donk have exact same carbi setup/parts?
Q5: Dumb question but here goes - what difference in donk 2 construction would produce the 5HP difference?

SPlash

FNQCairns

20-10-2007, 09:47 PM

Hi Splash, she did get hot! Which head was the hotest one? the starboard one can naturally run hotter on these but both are too hot anyway.

Q1. IF both are crossflow then yes they will swap straight over.

Q2. The ring of bolts underneath the outer cosmetic cover which is below the comling pan will reveal them, expect to break one!!or 2 or 3 ....possibly. Plus you will need to disconect all wiring fuel etc, it's actually very simple if age doesn't cause a corrosion problem anywhere.

Q3 easier to swap powerheads without a doubt, the midsection on each is a different lenght, pretty sure, I have no refference material on these engines anymore and it was a long time ago but sure they did not use an insert.

Q4. Yes identical if not a looper, all of the 90 to 140 hp were the same engine your 110 was a 140 till it was re-rated at the prop as was the 115, 120, and even the 90, some may have slightly different carb size or port timing and/or tuner/maniflod differences. Bottom line the 115 if crossflow IS your engine if it is crossflow.

Q6. Something could but it doesn't, there is room within the rating to go different for marketing purposes ie actual HP V advertised, these do not need to be the same, you will see 0 extra performance from the 115 unless it is a fresher engine.

Cheers fnq

FNQCairns

20-10-2007, 09:50 PM

Whats the chance you can pull both poppets and place them on a bench then button it back up and test run??

Cheers fnq

Splash

20-10-2007, 11:18 PM

Hi FNQ.

Heads and water jasckets are now off as is the whole stat assy including poppets. So this donk aint going anywhere for soem time now - sorry. The wait on freight (hence new gaskets, etc.) here to GOVE is at least 2 weeks...

What adverse impact to engine/water cooling system if i put donk back together without poppets?

Why remvoe poppets?

I have read elsewhere that cutting the poppet springs in half helps - Your thoughts?

SO, FNQ - after reading all of todays' posts, can you get closer to the problem of why this think is overheating?

Splash

Roughasguts

20-10-2007, 11:25 PM

Hi FNQ, Not sure I understand that set up very well.
I imagine it works that the thermostat opens and lets the cooling water in and is sufficiant for lower power settings, poppets closed.

But in high rev situations the water pump pushes more water out to open the poppets and cools the motor a hell of a lot better than going through the thermostat alone.

So as holes where drilled in to the poppets to let at least some water in to the jacket and therfore water to the thermostat as well so that would open.

So by drilling those holes in the poppets has actually stoped them from opening under full pressure as they are already venting a little.

So the only alternative is removal of the poppets or bigger holes to get the water flowing when required at hi speeds.

Don't know if all that cooling is a great thing for the motor, long term.
But worth a shot, and if good drill some bigger holes in the poppets, until it works reliably.
What y'a reckon splash you up for doing it all again.

Splash

20-10-2007, 11:40 PM

THanks Guts for this explanantion - I assume this is the understanding by all..I hope. :-)

I drilled 2 holes in these new poppets during XMAS 06 - in good faith. Now I detect, this may not have been a good idea (stopped them to operate under full pressure). I need some direction here. Were these holes supposed to have been drilled or not? Do I replace wiht new poppets again without drilling holes?

Why the choice to not use them at all - if they were part of the original donk design cooling system?

I am already half way there GUTs - so I am happy to go it again. But, I need all of yours and others guidance from here on in.

SPlash

Roughasguts

20-10-2007, 11:53 PM

Splash pretty sure it was me who told you to drill the holes, as warm /Hot water wasn't getting to your thermostat to open them.

But I think if you put new poppets in you will/Might be back to where we where above. (you could try blocking the holes screws or Araldite no real drama there)

That design thermostat poppets down low on the block may work fine when the thermostat and housing and the alloy bores are all nice and smooth to operate efficently EG: brand new but put some age on them and they won't work well at all.

I can't find the old thread with the original problem can you.

Splash

21-10-2007, 12:22 AM

HI Guts.

Look under 'Smelly' as author.

OK - undertsnad about the holes now.

So, what is the game plan from here?

Your thoughts on cutting the poppet springs in half?

Splash

21-10-2007, 06:33 AM

Splash,

Drilling holes where they are not supposed to be and cutting springs down that are supposed to be longer are both bad ideas.

Consider it this way - every other 110 out there operates without cutting springs and drilling holes so yours should work fine also.

Cheerw

Splash

21-10-2007, 07:54 AM

Thanks BM.

Are you able to offer any guidance on what I shoudl be doing now that I have the heads and stats out?

What else is there to do?

SPlash

bluefin59

21-10-2007, 08:29 AM

I dont know if this is relevent to your problem but i had a 15hp johnson that had a similar problem and it turned out to be a thing they called the exhaust trumpet i think .it was cracked after years of use and was sending hot exhaust air back into the motor but only when going at higher speeds at low speed and on muffs it was fine ,just thought i would throw that in . Very intersesting thread here guys i'm sure someone will have the answer also B.M is the trumpet maybe something to consider its just an idea ....matt

Splash

21-10-2007, 03:13 PM

THanks Bluefin59.

What is an exhasut trumpet?

Where did it break?

SPlsh

bluefin59

21-10-2007, 03:32 PM

I bileive its the bit that exhausts between the actual powerhead and the prop it carries the exhaust gasses out through to your prop ,it runs down the leg of the motor i think from memory the water from the impellor goes up past it to get to the motor ,with the crack in it it was pushing exhaust gasse through to this area witch inturn made the water hotter but only under full noise or higher revs if you like. Like i said i am probably wrong but after reading this thread i thought going of on a different tangent may help an exploded view of this motor would soon see if this were possible i know it happened to an old 15hp johno of mine 15 or more years ago B.M or Roughas will probably be able to dismiss this idea fairly quickly but i think it may be worth throwing it in the mix mate these guys are way more knowledgeable on the motors side than myself ....matt

Splash

21-10-2007, 03:38 PM

THanks Matt - will defintiely have a look.

Is it a tube or something?

SPlash

bluefin59

21-10-2007, 04:10 PM

Thats right mate its a tube like thing that sends the gasses down the leg if it was cracked high it maybe why your plugs are a little crappy and not white or a light brown ,i have been looking for the explode view but cannot find one yet it should be in your manual if you have one it sounds like you would ,It would only need a small amount of exhaust ingres to cause an overheating situation mine started as a small thing and gradually got worse i hope you see where i am coming from as i said the other guys will give you a yah or nay on this idea when they get back on line ,i would trust B.M on his mechanical knowledge i am just relateing something that happened to me a long time ago and your problem rang a bell i hope i havent wasted your time ....matt

Splash

21-10-2007, 04:19 PM

THansk Matt.

Not waist of time, All good info.

Next time leg is reomeved I will certainly inpsect this tube.

Yes, I do have manual, but no mentioned is made to this tube.

Best way to remove water restrictors in block head while head is still in tact?

SPlash

disorderly

21-10-2007, 04:44 PM

Hi Splash,
While I admire your resolve to get this motor going.
Lets look at reality,here.
You have already pulled it down in Melbourne (maybe even a couple of times times,if my memory serves me)and now its been taken to the other end of the country and you are still having major drama's with it.
My best advise is to remove it from the boat and lay it down a distance away from the boat and your accomodation,then beat the shit out of it with either a sledgehammer or the back of an axe,then pour a generous amount of flammable liquid(unleaded is good ) over it and gleefully light a match and throw it at the motor(just stand at least 2 metres away).You will derive even more satisfaction from it if you swear and curse at it as it burns and even p!ss on it as it finishes burning just for good measure.
Mate seriously,go and buy a decent late model second motor and at least have the peace of mind that your motor will get you home safely.

Scott

Splash

21-10-2007, 04:48 PM

Hi mate - good to ahve a smile on a Sunday afternoon.

I guess that'll be the last time it overheats..8-)

You're all invited to the bomb fire - bring your marshmellows!

SPlash

disorderly

21-10-2007, 05:09 PM

yeah cheers splash,
Its good we can have a bit of a laugh at your predicament but if you are going to be fishing offshore I'd certainly still advocate the purchase of a newer motor.
Safe fishing ,mate.http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/smiley.gif

Scott

21-10-2007, 07:10 PM

Splash,

The exhaust tuner sits beneath the powerhead at the top of the midsection. It is a tuned exhaust housing that gives the optimum performance for the engine.

To inspect you need to remove the powerhead from the midsection.

The water restrictors (rubber grommets) are in the cooling galleries for a reason. DO NOT remove them. They direct water flow around the block in the correct engineered manner.

I wouldn't scrap the engine yet. But take it to someone who knows their stuff so it can be properly assessed.

Cheers

Splash

21-10-2007, 07:15 PM

thanks BM.

Bit hard to take it to anyone here. only 2 people in town. 1 wont touch a donk more than 10 yo, the other i dunno.

Now that the head covers are off, woudl i still take it to someone?

BEst way to scrap/dissolve salt/crud from block cylinder walls whilst head still unattahed from donk??

SPlash

21-10-2007, 07:29 PM

Long thin screwdriver is good for descaling. How salted were your heads? Thick clear sort of jelly? Hard blocked areas? or just salt lined galleries?

How do the piston crowns look in terms of carbon?

Cheers

Splash

21-10-2007, 09:45 PM

HI BM.

All salt line galleries.

If i do use the screwdrver, won't this salt lined crud simply re-appear over time once back together and may be waisting my time?

Can I not use some sort of solution/spray?

Piston crwons look ok - not very much carbon on them at all.

After all what I have done this weekend, where do I stand BM?

SPlash

Splash

21-10-2007, 10:08 PM

Could cavitation and ventialtion at high rpm cause my overheating problem?

If so , what can i do to test if cvitaiton and ventialtion are a problem?

Splash

Splash

22-10-2007, 07:06 AM

I have read that the anti ventilation / cavitaiton plate should be level with bottom of hull.

I ahve also read that this plate shoudl be 1 or 2" high than bottom of hull.

Which is the definative answer to prevent cavition?

Shoudl this measurement should also be measured with donk full retracted to lowest position?

Splash

Roughasguts

22-10-2007, 10:19 AM

Ventilation splash is just the prop spinning in a few air bubbles, cause by the cav plate being to high, or turning to sharp and getting airated water under the hull.

The motor rev's pretty dam'n high and the boat stops going forward or at least slows down when the props spinning in airated non clear stream water.

So it's just like dropping the cluth on your V8 ute in the dirt and getting no where.

Cavitation you ain't got, that's exhaust gas burning a big hole in the water, then boiling the water around the prop, you will even see prop damage if you have cavitation.

Cavitation would be a dead stop as there is no water for the prop to grab on to.
Just a big void around the prop, full of hot gasses.

Roughasguts

22-10-2007, 10:58 AM

Getting back to the Cav plate.
If you run a straight edge along the keel of your boat towards your motor ideally to start with the cav plate on your motor would be in a direct straight line.

But then the fun starts using mine as an example my Cav plate is 13mm higher than the bottom of the hull or keel, but the engine is reaching near max rev's with a full load, so that's good.

But if I tow toy's the motor will ventilate or the prop will slip in the airated water in turns, to overcome that you need to lower the motor with the cav plate below the keel to have clean stream water for the prop to grab. Or trim down, I choose to trim down cause if I lower the motors cav plate under the keel then the motor will get more drag and I will lose rev's and therfore speed and some fuel economy.

Regardless of what speed i'm doing I trim the motor so it is 90 degrees to the water. I don't know if that helps, but I don't think you have a ventilation problem and that alone is causing your overheating problem.

You did get a link and sync done on your motor didn't you? you know ignition carby linkage adjustment.

But it really does sound like it's the salt build up causing the over heating problems. Boiling hot water is about the best thing I know for disolving salt, then agian I would probably get the sh!its with that and hit it with the sand blaster and clean out the water galleries.
Then spend the next day flushing the sand out, not thinking that would block it up also.

But it's easy for me to say that I bought new equiptment or gadgets every pay since I was around 14 years old to make life easier for me.
It hasn't helped much at all, the neighbours think i'm the local free hire and never give back in the same condition place.

Splash

22-10-2007, 01:19 PM

thanks boys!

Splash

22-10-2007, 07:29 PM

What about the prospect of swollen water restrictor tubes in between the cylinder walls causing overheating? At idle, there may be slight overheating but maybe not enough for the alarm to go off. Water may still be circulating around the bottom 2 cylinders but swollen deflectors can restict water flow to the top 2. The alarm may not trigger until full throttle is applied.

What are the signs of swollen restrictors?

Should I replace mine in any case?

How do they work?

SPlash

FNQCairns

22-10-2007, 08:05 PM

Thats worth investigating Spach, we used to call them water deflectors, if there is any problem with them it can cause drama, not something I have had to deal with though.

I have asked a couple of times but cannot remember your answer or if you gave one-how may RPM is WOT on your boat?

Do you really want to go spending money on this powerhead considering the compression?, your rings are probably plastic due to too many overheats, what is your plan if you get it running cool? Move one to a re-ring if it specs up as an option when measured?

Do you have a manual?

cheers fnq

Splash

22-10-2007, 08:47 PM

HI FNQ.

WOT - 4600 RPM

YEs, I have a manual.

I have considered spednign $18k on a new 115HP Yami 4 stroke donk - pretty exec though...

Your thoughts on this other 115HP for $2000 woudl be good to hear.

SPlash

FNQCairns

22-10-2007, 09:03 PM

Splash if your RPM is correct then you may have found a good chunk of your overheating cause. Are you sure 4600?? Exactly what is the prop diameter and pitch on your rig? Anything rounder than 13.25 and with more pitch than 16 and you are in trouble, mate it must be a real dog with a wot that low.

PS sorry about calling you spach:)

cheers fnq

Splash

22-10-2007, 09:19 PM

HI FNQ -

THe users manual states 4500 - 5000 RPM at WOT. I just took an average.

I am unable to measure RPM at WOT on my rig as I do not have a tacho.

APologies for misleading if I had.

I have a SS 17 pitch Viper prop.

Splash

Splash

22-10-2007, 09:21 PM

What are the signs of swollen restrictors?

FNQCairns

22-10-2007, 09:57 PM

Have you found them in the block under the heads? they are just pieces of rubber pipe and turn egg shaped instrad of just normal round tube, if yours look like this replace them they just pull out but can be hard to put all the way back in due to corrosion.

No worries, you need a tacho badly, what diameter is the viper?

Cheers fnq

Splash

22-10-2007, 10:15 PM

hi fnq.

sorry for delay - wife using net for scrabble... :-(

here is my prop:
http://www.dixiemarinesales.com/detail.aspx?ID=409

dia 13 7/8", pitch 17" - within spec for this donk.

My manual states the WOT range is 4500 - 5500 RPM.

From what I have read, my ideal prop pitch should achieve revs to be within top half of my WOT operating range, when trimmed out (i.e. 5200 RPM).

How can I confirm if my 17" pitch will achieve this goal?

Splash

FNQCairns

22-10-2007, 10:28 PM

hi fnq.

sorry for delay - wife using net for scrabble... :-(

here is my prop:
http://www.dixiemarinesales.com/detail.aspx?ID=409

dia 13 7/8", pitch 17" - within spec for this donk.

My wot range is 4500 - 5500 - as per manual.

Splash

Yeah I only get about 10min per hour to play on the net often in the evenings.

I don't believe your engine will push that prop, you IMO would be lugging badly, if it was a pressed alum 5.2m boat and running light it may work. Nice props those. Damn near impossible to get good prop advice in the real world, you need to start somewhere like a 13 and 1/8 X 16p vengeance or any omc not larger than 13.5x16p or 15p.

If you cannot see 5500 as a absolute MINIMUM and carrying heavy, she will die a slow death, your engine is working it's guts out pushing your rig ATM.

cheers fnq

Splash

22-10-2007, 10:33 PM

Tanks FNQ.

My boat manual states 19" pitch for 110HP and 17" for 90HP.

I have 110HP and you are stating my 17" pitch is too large.

With all due respect FNQ but I don't get it. Is my boat manual incorrect?

SPlash

FNQCairns

22-10-2007, 10:46 PM

Yeah bucket loads too big, sure fire way to kill a motor, they run hotter when worked, they are a dog on the water, they carbon up.

It puts a whole new slant on your engine problems, your rings may be stuck - all of them!!!
Question: any rasping on your cyl walls, scores or are they perfect, forget crosshatch it means nothing.
You need to follow a very specific procedure from the moment you button it back up to see if it can be saved - compression is your main problem in all truth.

Does Your deflectors have the closed in on themselves eggshaped/oval centre one gets the hottest so shows most distortion/swelling.

In my mind you are now getting somewhere.

cheers fnq

PS was your engine a claimed rebuild/rering/whatever when you bought it or wa it original??

Splash

22-10-2007, 10:50 PM

FNQCairns

22-10-2007, 10:59 PM

FNQ - Is my manual incorrect when it states 19" pitch for for 110HP and 17" pitch for 90HP?

WIll confirm cylinder walls for you.

DOnk was claimed original as it did look ugly when i first took it aprat in Dec last year...

This SS prop was put on by the fellas in Melbourne (in Feb this year) when I damaged my prop shaft and prop. I had no say in the selection of prop.

SPlash

YES your manual is wrong as is up to 90% of the over the counter advice you will get from dealers/sellers.

Would your engine and the 17 inch prop work on Bertram 25 foot? Would your engine and the 17p prop work on a 14 foot tinny. It's not about the engine it's about the boat it is on.

cheers fnq

Splash

22-10-2007, 11:04 PM

Thanks FNQ.

"Trueblue" made this statement on 07/04/07 in link http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/showthread.php?t=107779

"....Lower pitch gives you good holeshot, and higher WOT revs, bigger pitches give less holeshot. Bigger pitches drag your WOT revs back, and are used to get the most out of the horsepower available, and to not over rev the engine...."

What is holeshot and do you agree with Trueblue?

SPlash

Splash

22-10-2007, 11:07 PM

Thanks fnq - i think i may get that sledgehammer out now. I feel like I have been raped by both the seller and Melbourne boat dealers who repair outboards..

SPlash

blaze

23-10-2007, 05:52 AM

Hi
When you are in the boat by yourself with no gear and a full tank of fuel your engine WOT should be 5400 to 5500 although 5700 would still be ok. when loaded for a trip, extra body, extra gear you maywell only get a WOT of 5100, that is still ok because it is between the stated limits for you engine.
Holeshot = how fast the boat gets on the plain and can obtain the correct WOT (you dont need to operate at WOT.
When the WOT is correct the timing is then correct through out the rev range.
I dont nessarily agree with statement by trueblue
The best fuel economy and power is achieve when WOT is in the upper limmits of specs and the boat operated at about 75% of WOT.
You need to concern yourself less with the diameter of the prop and more with the pitch.
Dont know if this helps
cheers
blaze