ethanol in petrol

[mikeyh]

this sort of follows from some issues discussed with the stale fuel thread....
Out of interest can someone tell me what the issue with ethanol and marine engines is...I believe in aircraft it is because alcohol freezes at lower temps than petrol but dont know with boats? Can it be used in 4 strokes outboards and sterndrives?..after all engines like Honda BF130 is just 2.2L Accord motor and no probs with ethanol in them .

thanks all, Mike:)

[SgBFish]

Mike.
From the Yamaha Australia site:
https://www.yamaha-motor.com.au/ssl/index.htm?marine_faq.asp



ETHANOL BLENDED FUELS
OUTBOARDS
Q. Are Yamaha outboards motors, 4 stroke and 2 stroke, designed to operate on Ethanol Blended Fuels.

No, All current and previous models are NOT designed for Ethanol Blended Fuels at any percentage. (ie. E5, 5% and E10, 10%).

If Ethanol Blended Fuels are used you may experience driveability and running problems, fuel component deterioration and damage due to moisture.

Scott

[Tailortaker]

This is not good news to me as I only realised that my local Bp was using the Ethanol fuel. I have always filled the boat there so I asked how long it has been used there and they told me six weeks. I fuel my boat almost weekly ! I'm going home to empty the tank and than I'm switching to the local caltex. Will this have damaged my outboard ? it's only a 25hp and I've used about 10-15lts a week for 6 weeks..
TT
________
Drug test (http://drugtestingkit.org)

[SgBFish]

Alcohol by its nature takes up water.
I wonder if that’s what the issue is here. If you get condensation in your tank with ethanol it could be what they are on about.

[Polly]

This is not good news to me as I only realised that my local Bp was using the Ethanol fuel. I have always filled the boat there so I asked how long it has been used there and they told me six weeks. I fuel my boat almost weekly ! I'm going home to empty the tank and than I'm switching to the local caltex. Will this have damaged my outboard ? it's only a 25hp and I've used about 10-15lts a week for 6 weeks..
TT
I would be careful at Caltex as they sell Etahnol also.
I got caught there the other day. I saw the 1.14c a litre sign and was happily filling up all the boat tanks when I noticed the bowser was showing 1.17@litre. When I checked the sign again it was ethanol at 1.14.
To make matters worse there was a surcharge on using a credit card as well.

[FNQCairns]

My understanding is based on the water as mentioned above, ethanol when water is added creats an acid,weak but still an acid, this acid attacks anything it is formed on, all engines when shut down hold air this air usally holds water.
This water due to the cooling of the engine is condensed onto every surface. An outboard engine either 4 or 2 stroke may not see daily service so the oportunity for the acid to wreak damage is very real due mainly time.

There is the issue of rubber parts not compatable also but this to me is a far lesser evil and exactly why industry speak about it, very quiet on the corrosion of all internals as there is no cure for that disease.


cheers fnq

[Tangles]

So which Petrol Companies dont use ethanol, sounds like so far BP and Caltex ( which Ive been using), anyone know offhand?
cheers
Mike

[marco]

So which Petrol Companies dont use ethanol, sounds like so far BP and Caltex ( which Ive been using), anyone know offhand?
cheers
Mike


they all have to label the bowsers if they are selling a blend of 10% or more , just make sure you look carefully before you fill up . the bp ones are easy to miss it because of small stickers .

[stark]

Most engine manfacturer of newer engines have a statement in their owners book about ethanol. My engine supplier is happy with 10% being used.

Some have issues with the type of rubber compounds uses in the engine, especially older units. The ethanol can attack the rubber making it brittle.

There are threads here about this matter which are very extensive. Look them up if you need further info.

Cheers
John

[peterbo3]

Several years ago the sulphur content of diesel was lowered & a number of "additives" went into the fuel to compensate for the reduced sulphur content. At the time, every politician & his dog as well as the fuel companies assured us that there would be zilch, zero, zip side effects from using the new blend. Plus our kids would be healthier because of the lower emissions produced. Everyone was going to be a winner.
Well, all the owners of slightly older model oilburners who had to have their fuel pumps rebuilt because of the damage caused by the new blend were not happy. The fuel companies eventually paid for the repairs but only after some prolonged arm-twisting & TV coverage of the issue.
When Shell or Caltex, etc put a notice on their pumps & run ads in the media stating that E5 or E10 will not damage any outboard, inboard, fuel tank & fuel system & all the marine engine builders do the same, then all will be good.
But that is NOT going to happen until pigs are in the approach path to Brisbane airport. E10 is a con. Sure, it comes from sugar & other crops & is supposedly a renewable energy source, but those crops need a lot of energy (fertilizer, water, tractor fuel, pesticides, weed spray, etc) to grow.
There is a US website called The Hull Truth. Use their search engine & check out what has been said about ethanol. Many US states do not offer the choice of ethanol free fuel & there are plenty of problems.
There will be no E10 going into the tank of the new Fisher. Ever. And for those on this site that think that E10 may have caused a problem, give Caltex or BP a call & ask them what they plan to do about it. Let us know how you go.

[cormorant]

Ethanol has less energy in it than petrol so in reality you are dilluting your petrol and hence the $ saving. Your fuel ecconomy won't be as good nor yor performance. We all know many boats are already underpowered so it would be a bad thing to labour a motor even more due to using less volatile fuel. Unlike cars with gears boat motors must produce revs, to produce torque and HP and are easily bogged down. his overloading could lea to carbon build up or burn't piston tops and valves??

Water in solution with Ethanol may come out of solution and reside in a watery corrosive gel in a aggitated tank or one that goes through large temperature change. This could happen in your 2 stroke crankcase , bearings or bore or in the carby as many of us leave our motors stationary for too long. The oil film that protects a 2 stroke bore and surfaces may be affected.

Put simply I would't run it unless I had to. I would be concerned about its mixing ability with some non twc3 oils. I wouldn't care if I ran a tank through my motor as long as the the next day i was back on the good stuff.

Bottom line - ok for modern car engines in daily use but I wouldn't risk it with my outboards or mercruiser due to storage issues, water absorbtion / deposition.

All fuel contains a mix of weird components and it is very much up to the refinery what goes into it. There is no proper Aust standard for fuel but there is octane ratings. The fuel companies can use a mix of many things to sweeten a batch of fuel so it is the right octane rating when it leaves the refinery but it doesn't make it good fuel.

On another point some premium fuels have potential to do some damage to some motors as the motors don't expect such a volatile fuel with different burn characheristics and don't have the electronic sensors to measure type of fuel.

Only use fuel type and octane recommended by the engine manufacturer and don't give em the chance to shirk on a warranty claim.


Cor

[Chas & Clarry]

Thanks for all of the information on this thread.

Pretty important info for all Ausfishers to know I think.

After reading it this morning, I checked the local Caltex where I usually buy my fuel and very happy to discover that there is no ethanol in their fuel, but that was just good luck not good management for me.

Will certainly buy in a more informed way when using other service stations in future.

C&C

[mikeyh]

Many thanks to all for your replies :) Certainly cleared up my query about E10

[Juzo]

I've used a bit of ethanol mix over the last few months, and now I think I am experiencing the problems caused by it. After a prolonged period of no use I took it out, and now I have a flat spot in the powerband (about 1500 revs), where it just dies, very upset. Am trying to repair (see my post of 60 Johnson outboard, looking for help).

Anyone got ideas on what might be damaged by the ethanol?
cheers
Juzo

[maztez]

Very interesting post .
I thank all contributors for awakening info .makes me wonder just how much damage we may have caused already
cheers terry

[John_R]

I saw on the news last night that NSW is going to mandate 10% ethanol and that the other states are likely to follow suit.

They also had some alternative looking spokesperson (woman?) from the AMA going on about how harmful the emissions are and that the fuel companies greed comes before health. I suppose it is about time they started to recognise the effects of fuel emissions, all of which have been previously blamed on smoking.

So where do you get ethanol free fuel for your outboard from then?

[SgBFish]

I saw on the news last night that NSW is going to mandate 10% ethanol and that the other states are likely to follow suit.

They also had some alternative looking spokesperson (woman?) from the AMA going on about how harmful the emissions are and that the fuel companies greed comes before health. I suppose it is about time they started to recognise the effects of fuel emissions, all of which have been previously blamed on smoking.

So where do you get ethanol free fuel for your outboard from then?

It would be interesting if you made a warrantee claim and it was traced to blended fuel and it was the only unleaded available under a Government mandate.

[Ron173]

Mike.
From the Yamaha Australia site:
https://www.yamaha-motor.com.au/ssl/index.htm?marine_faq.asp



ETHANOL BLENDED FUELS
OUTBOARDS
Q. Are Yamaha outboards motors, 4 stroke and 2 stroke, designed to operate on Ethanol Blended Fuels.

No, All current and previous models are NOT designed for Ethanol Blended Fuels at any percentage. (ie. E5, 5% and E10, 10%).

If Ethanol Blended Fuels are used you may experience driveability and running problems, fuel component deterioration and damage due to moisture.

Scott

This is true, and I have emailed Yamaha Australia asking what they propose to do when NSW brings in an E10 mandate, I will post on this thread when I get a response.

I would imagine they would have to do some retro work to bring their fuel systems into line. I have an etec aswell and it is E10 compatable, now I dont think its an acid thing, I doubt Evinrude build their motors from special materials to withstand E10.

However I do believe that Evinrude and prob other big manufacturers are building to suit ethanol, by using ethanol resistant seals.

It will be like the sulphur diesel fiasco, if you had viton seals it was ok, so worst prob scenario, you will need to put your engine in to dealer to have fuel system seals upgraded, and this would need to be warranty on newer engines.

What does Yamaha do in states where ethanol is almost unaviodable?

I will post any yamaha response

Ron

[marco]

It would be interesting if you made a warrantee claim and it was traced to blended fuel and it was the only unleaded available under a Government mandate.

i reckon they will recommend fuel used for marine use to be pulp at about 6 cents more per litre and have all unleaded as a e10 blend

[Ron173]

i reckon they will recommend fuel used for marine use to be pulp at about 6 cents more per litre and have all unleaded as a e10 blend

Now theres another can of worms, certain manufacturers warn against pulp because of all the additives, Evinrude being one of them, admittedly the etec is e10 compliant though, but it will be an issue with other makes.

Geez, why they gotta keep stuffin with petrol?????????? petrol was petrol for years n years.... look at it now!!!


Ron

[marco]

Now theres another can of worms, certain manufacturers warn against pulp because of all the additives, Evinrude being one of them, admittedly the etec is e10 compliant though, but it will be an issue with other makes.

Geez, why they gotta keep stuffin with petrol?????????? petrol was petrol for years n years.... look at it now!!!


Ron


i dont know about petrol being petrol years ago , i think they simply didnt tell you what crap they had in there . some pretty wicked additives was used not even that long ago

[cormorant]

This is true, and I have emailed Yamaha Australia asking what they propose to do when NSW brings in an E10 mandate, I will post on this thread when I get a response.

I would imagine they would have to do some retro work to bring their fuel systems into line. I have an etec aswell and it is E10 compatable, now I dont think its an acid thing, I doubt Evinrude build their motors from special materials to withstand E10.

However I do believe that Evinrude and prob other big manufacturers are building to suit ethanol, by using ethanol resistant seals.

Evinrude ETEC get around most ethanol problems by having a sealed (air and water tight) pressurised fuel system even when the motor is not running. I still wouldn't run ethanol in one if I had a choice. All modern motors shouldn't have an issue with ethanol with seals but you will still have issues with Tolulene (paint thinner / acetone) etc from dodgy petrol stations as these will tear injectors and seal apart with any length of exposure. Fuel filters have been known to collapse and clog fuel systems from these as well. .

It will be like the sulphur diesel fiasco, if you had viton seals it was ok, so worst prob scenario, you will need to put your engine in to dealer to have fuel system seals upgraded, and this would need to be warranty on newer engines.

What does Yamaha do in states where ethanol is almost unaviodable?

Fuel in the states is different to Australia. There low octane stuff is crap but their highter octane ( they have 3 from memory) are regulated standard and better consistant quality than some of the Aus stuff. There blends and additives aredifferent as well.

I will post any yamaha response

Be great if you would.

Ron
As for fuel not being like they used to be that is sort of correct. The old additives were very effective in fuel holding octane etc but the problem was that when they burnt they left a more toxic residue which is now unacceptable to our environment. Quality would have varied as much with blends but with the rifgt old stabilizers and octane holders it was still good fuel after afew weeks.

[marco]

the use of dodgy additives like ron describes has become almost a thing of the past as the likes of customs really clamped down on the use of that type of thing .

the law changed back in feb 05 i think it was about the quality of fuel which could be sold and is why prior to that woolies fuel in some areas was so dodgy .

my bet is they didnt give a stuff on your engine but the duty they were missing out on was more the reason .

[snapperbasher]

I am up for a new fuel pump after filling up accidently with e10 at my local bp.motor ran fine for about 2 hrs than the fuel pump went and we had to keep priming the bulb all the way back from tempest to manly.coincedence i think not.

[cormorant]

I am up for a new fuel pump after filling up accidently with e10 at my local bp.motor ran fine for about 2 hrs than the fuel pump went and we had to keep priming the bulb all the way back from tempest to manly.coincedence i think not.


Interesting to know you have a recent one- do you think it was dodgy fuel or just e10 that was the issue? What motor was it , car or boat? I have seen several cheap fuel bulbs die really fast with bad fuel and they have actually been eaten away turning to black mush. Fuel hoses can go soft really fast as well.

Not sure it is the actual ethanol doing the damage as it blends ok but some other components in the wrong ratios in fuel can really cause disaster. Smell of the fuel is the only way I can sometimes pick stuff that I don't want in my equipment and I generally only realise this when decanting out of jerry cans as out of the bowser it is hard to see / smell. Diaphrams in old chainsaws where a modern replacement isnt avaliable will die in 2 weeks with crap petrol in them.

The only reason the government started to moniter the other "paint thinners "and additives was due to loss of excise duty which was the very reason unscrupulous servos were doing it. We had a win 3 years ago but that was only as I had a mate who worked at caltex and I found out the result of the petrol test they did from samples we gave them and an independant one done straight from their bowser with an employee present. There official test 2 days later showed "petrol was within spec". Our second secret test 2 days later at same servo showed it was still really poor petrol according to the lab boys with similar components to outr original bad stuff... That got us new injectors ($860 each), fuel pump and hoses in the car as the fuel they denied was theres came up the same "contaminates" Toululine but we knew it did. There was 6 cars like us who only made it less than 3 blocks as we had all grabbed a full tank. How many others only grabbed a few litres and never knew we will never know. We had to sign a disclaimer with enough fine print so any further liability was not theres after their initial repairs just to get that far. Can't have just been a rougue operator as we sampled 2 other stations and all were tainted. Our private samples in a glass jar settled out into different layers in a couple of days and smelt like metho with a tang and we guess it did the same in the servo tanks as it wsn't mixed.

There should be more strict control like there is on country deisel servos where getting stuck in the dessert with bad deisel may lead to death. Absolutely no different to someone ending up offshore in my mind.

[cormorant]

If you ever think you have a bad batch or fuel make sure you get a sample- several in fact. Get a receipt for each one. The only acceptable container to prove your case is a tin container with a sealed lid stored in a cool position. They won't 100 % believe plastic coke bottles or a coffee jar due to the plastic lid and possible contamination. Our mix from the car later literally dissolved a orchy container to jelly!! We bought 6 new mower cans from the servo and flushed them in front of the clerk before filling them up so there was little air and then masking tape with signatures,2nd receipt and dates over the caps. Same from our car tank. Phone head office and arrange for taxi from servo direct to the distributor after calling them telling them the problem and arranging for it to be tested. The major refiners have their own labs but many also contract out if you want them to do private work. Second samples to them we delivered. They denied everything and refused to give actual results back in our case so we asked for our can back with our petrol in it so we could get it tested. We had plenty in the car anyway. Whoops they couldn't or wouldn't do that. Didn't even send our samples for testing and as soon as they had confirmed our threat that we had a second set of samples from the servo clerk they actually wanted to deal with us rather than stonewall us. We helped out the others in the same situation and gave the sealed cans to their legal eagle as the denial gane continued- one was a AMG Benze so I think I know why they were denying lability as our repair was 40% the value of our car alone. We fought to use our own mechanic as well and to have the bill open in case anything else was damaged. Lucky we did as an tiny oxygen sensor or temp sender also was corroded and was some ridiculous price.

No admission ever from Petrol people and no explaination of how it could have happened.

If it wasn't for the NRMA bloke telling my wife it was his fourth call out on the same road all with stalled motors all who had just come from the servo we would never ave clicked and got the samples. Thank god for my mate who knew what to do.

6 months later we heard of some others who had similar problems and passed the details of the soliciter on to them.

All I ever wanted was normal petrol and I wasn't even going to a discount station but an actual brand name one after seeing all the ACA news reports and we still got caught. Well that's how I learnt just how bad fuel can be and still be in spec in theory!!! Just thankfull none went through my boat at the time as being a v6 injected it would have been an expensive write off let alone the farm equipment. We were lucky it was so bad it killed the car within minutes.

[marco]

cormorant ,
was it possible it had diesel in the fuel , maybe a shandy from the tanker ?

the behavior of the fuel company sounds about right for most of them .

[snapperbasher]

im not sure it was the e10 but it seemed to be the only thing i can think of may have been coincedence but i doubt it.the outboard is a late 90's 150 johnson.

[Ron173]

As for fuel not being like they used to be that is sort of correct. The old additives were very effective in fuel holding octane etc but the problem was that when they burnt they left a more toxic residue which is now unacceptable to our environment. Quality would have varied as much with blends but with the rifgt old stabilizers and octane holders it was still good fuel after afew weeks.


Reply from Yamaha, there was a name in there but I have removed it as I do not have the persons permission to post it, so its not got their name on it.

Dear Ron,
The 2008 model outboard motors will be suitable to operate on a 10% ethanol
mix of fuel. Please note that this only applies to 2008 model outboards.
Regards,

Customer Relations Department
Yamaha Motor Australia

So from this and the etec, it can be seen that only the very latest motors are designed to cope with this laced Ethanol

It wont be going in my engines unless it is THE only option left, and it should never come to that - hopefully.



Ron

[marco]

Reply from Yamaha, there was a name in there but I have removed it as I do not have the persons permission to post it, so its not got their name on it.

Dear Ron,
The 2008 model outboard motors will be suitable to operate on a 10% ethanol
mix of fuel. Please note that this only applies to 2008 model outboards.
Regards,

Customer Relations Department
Yamaha Motor Australia

So from this and the etec, it can be seen that only the very latest motors are designed to cope with this laced Ethanol

It wont be going in my engines unless it is THE only option left, and it should never come to that - hopefully.



Ron


thats all well and good but the main problem is storage of the e10 , with any water present in the tank which is possible in a marine enviroment the ethanol will gather the water and then seperate from the petrol because it has become heavier and with the fuel pickup at the bottom of the tank , i think it wont matter whether your engine is suitable for a 10% blend or not . no engine is going to like a gut full of 100% ethanol and water .

[FNQCairns]

So what will they be making the cylinder bores/rings/bearings/cranks/pistons and crankcase out of in these new Yamaha engines? Fine for a daily commuter but an engine that sit's for 2 weeks+ at a time often with the last charge of fuel still inside, trapped air condensing water to contact this ethanol mix then happily munching away at any gap in oil film protection.

The old saying that an outboard that doesn't get used often dies early, this is because of conensed water - nothing greatly else (bit to do with seal hardening also), now we have water and ethanol= rust/corrosion, 1week may be too long for it to sit!

cheers fnq

[cormorant]

Go to this Goverment website and you will see the results of trials on e10 and e20 fuel done on a 2002 mercury 15hp or actually 10 of them.

If the comments that refer to damaged bearing surfaces don't scare you enough surely the leaning of mix and stalling under acceleration will do it and if not how about the direct reduction in hp??

There is also other articles there on Australian fuel quality and standards or lack of them.

http://eied.deh.gov.au/atmosphere/fuelquality/publications/marine/index.html

http://eied.deh.gov.au/atmosphere/fuelquality/publications/assessment-e10-e20/mercury.html

http://www.environment.gov.au/atmosphere/fuelquality/publications/


Can't remember if it was on this thread but there was also discussion about next years Yamahas being able to take e10 and why. Usually large manufacturers order parts from suppliers with a specification. If all the parts in the current Yamaha were not specified to survive exposure to e10 then Yamaha wouldn't allow their motors to be used with e10 until every component was specified. They will generally do it at a model or year change for simplicity but infact many earlier parts may well have been suitable. Bottom line is it only takes one failure to strand you so I would never use e10 is it is avoidable even in a compliant motor due to fuel quality issues.What ethanol does to the lubricating quality of oil and it's ability to remail viscose on bearing surfaces is the key and as far as I can find there is little testing of different 2 stroke oils and their ability to mix with ethanol without detrimental results or degredation and that is when used fresh let alone stored or used infrequently like many boat motors are.

C

PS was interesting to note the butterfly flap screws in the carby coming loose with ethanol blends and surface degredation other metal surfaces. Loctitie compounds don't like ethanol.

PSS The other thing I can't confirm is that normal fuel is still allowed to be made up of up to 10% ethanol in it's chemical mix so does that mean that e10 can be up to 20%??


psss Go to page 167 for the conclusions and basically e10 only suitable for injected not carby cars and you have to remember they are all 4 stroke. This study didn't go into the real longevity of engines.

http://www.environment.gov.au/atmosphere/fuelquality/publications/ethanol-2007/pubs/ethanol-fuels-report.pdf

[fishing111]

Very interesting read C, I'm amazed that they can flog this shit at any level for marine use. It truely puzzles me in this day and age where there are seemingly an infinite number of bright yellow,orange and red warning stickers on everything you buy, yet this ethanol is promoted by the Government as green and safe.It may well be bloody green, to some extent, but it's quite obviously not safe. Why has there allways got to be fatalities before Governent acts ???

Just imagine how many people out there in car land, let alone boating land who have no clue to what this shit does, they happily fill there car/boat/motorbike or whatever and have no clue to future problems.

[cormorant]

Like all reports you have to look at who funded them and why. This was done by enviro dept of govt to see it e10 is ok. But being the enviro dept you would think they would look at the total sustainability issue bad fuel creates with consumers getting lesser life from machinery and the environmental issue of having to replace it with new and dispose of old equipment. In real world the solution is to create a total cost of ownership and environment impact / sustainability report for each good and the difference a change in fuel would make.

A 10% (number out of air) better emision result by using sustainable ethanol compared to a larger % of energy to smelt build , deliver a new piece of equipment every 5 years instead of 10years as they don't last is the real concern.

For consumers the only way we can value our purchase is how long will it last and do it's job and how much are we prepared to pay.

Renewable fuel is fine but if it affects other longevity issues the public should be aware as a 10cent saving at the bowser could cost you thousands.

e10 to 20 will be the death of carby 2 strokes and 4 strokes as only a more complicated electronic brain engine has the ability to compensate when it is being used or like the manufacturers are currently doing , either say don't use it or tune their motors to run in a way that isin't as efficient but they will last.

Don't expect support from manufacturers as they will like the turnover of newer motors like the car industry is experiencing.

c

[cormorant]

Just had time to read a few more of the tests for whipper snippers and alike.

I was never going to run ethanol if I could help it but now I'm going to make sure I don't.

C

[FishMarket]

I find it very amusing that some Outboard companies recommend in their manual a 91 Unleaded fuel with up to 10% Ethanol yet will not honour a warranty claim if you use a 95 Unleaded fuel even though their Website FAQ recommends to do so. I accidentally put 91 (E10) in my tank last week and as soon as I got home, it was Syphoned out .... I'll be going back to a normal 95 Unleaded and I will gladly wear the warranty issue .... it's just fuel!!!!!

Ta
Matt