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Pudzie
16-07-2007, 08:40 PM
G'day guys,

Just buying a new Quintrex freedom sport 75 Hp for Brisbane area and wondering which is best?? 2 stroke or 4 stroke... obviously the 4 stroke is extra cash. Also used to fishing in Mackay, anyone got any recommended fishing spots for a newcomer?

BM
16-07-2007, 08:48 PM
Best for what????? Fairly open question there that can go in multiple directions.

Cheers

Dan5
16-07-2007, 08:53 PM
G'day mate you have just opened up a big can of worm's on 2strk v's 4strk.Everyone has a differnt opinion on this matter personally i've had 4strk's for the last 7 year's and last week i bought another one and would never buy a 2strk again after owning 4 of them and using many other boat's with them.Fourstroke is quieter better economy and lot's more user friendly in my opinion but they are more expensive to purchase and service (at a dealer anyway).This thread will be full of other people's opinon's so listen to the pro's and con's on both motor's and then make up your own mind on what suit's you mate.And welcome aboard Dan...

Pudzie
16-07-2007, 09:29 PM
Thanks guys,

i suppose I was a little concerned about the 2 stroke as I had heard viscous rumours that some dams/lakes around the place had banned 2 strokes... Does anyone know if this is the case or is it just a case of some dams ban all powerboats and only allow electric motors in and don't distinguish between 2 st. and 4 st?

BM
16-07-2007, 09:45 PM
Pudzie,

This was dealt with in the Etec promotional DVD but it stands true here in Oz also. The EPA regulate emissions and not engine technology.

With DI 2 strokes being as fuel efficient but more importantly emissions efficient as 4 strokes they cannot ban one without banning the other.

I think it will be a long time before we see carby 2 or 4 stroke outboards banned in Oz.....

Cheers

bushbeachboy
17-07-2007, 04:37 AM
G'day Pudzie,
Welcome aboard mate. What's your intended usage? Or perhaps a better question, what's your main intended usage? With the bowrider layout you've obviously got the option to do stuff other than fishing (althought they look like an awesome fishing boat). If it's within your budget, go for the newer technologies, either 4 stroke or DI 2 stroke.
Cheers
Craig aka BBB

Noelm
17-07-2007, 08:17 AM
too many worms on this one, I'm leaving it alone (almost) do a tad more research before you worry about 2 strokes being banned from anywhere.

mini696
17-07-2007, 09:53 AM
Have you already purchased the motor?

I recently bought a new motor and was suprised that it was $1000 (at least) cheaper to buy it in my home town rather than go down to Brisbane. Suprised because I thought with the extra competition etc in Brissy that it would be cheaper. This was on a $5000 motor too (a massive 20% difference).

aussiebasser
17-07-2007, 10:02 AM
The four stroke is more expensive. It will increasy your resale value. It will be quieter and smell less at low speeds, in comparison to standard two strokes. The 75 etec's just look too small on a big hull, my opinion only.

SgBFish
17-07-2007, 11:32 AM
Every time you try to start your carby 2S on a cold winter morning as well as every time you put fuel in and every time you smell it, you will reminded of the mistake you made

Ask any dealer what they would try and shift second-hand.

What do the pros use? Why?

Noelm
17-07-2007, 12:50 PM
most of the pros in my area use 2 stokes probably about 85% at least.

BM
17-07-2007, 01:33 PM
I find it very interesting (what about you Noel?) this apparent shift away from the "filthy, stinking, slow starting, smoking.etc etc etc ad infinitum" commentary coming from everywhere about conventional 2 strokes. I am be no means opposed to techological developments but I suspect clever marketting has a major hand in all this.

It would appear to me that in about the last 12 months or so, the boating population of Australia took off the "alleged" blinkers they have worn for the last 30 yrs and SUDDENLY realised that carby 2 strokes were a dirty invention and must be banished........

Bravo, to the advertising world I guess for the "we all hate carby 2 strokes" and "4 strokes are the way to go" line of thinking that you see trotted out on the forums around the country.

Re the "pros", in my experience, they use whatever they can get for the best price. Reliability is usually all that counts and thats not an issue typically when the engines get flogged off after 18 months.

If I were running a charter operation with outboards (should be shaft drive diesels, but thats another topic I guess) I would probably go for the 4 strokes if I was satisfied that their fuel economy was slightly better than the 2 strokes. Reason for the decision is that performance (in this example) is not a great consideration overall so for a cost saving on fuel (you would have to consider fuel usage per annum versus initial purchase cost differential to make a value judgement) I would put up with the lesser performance of the 4 strokes.

Cheers

Noelm
17-07-2007, 02:27 PM
I personally would have a 4 or a "NEW" 2 stroke and have no drama with either, but we must never compare an old 1985 (say) carby 2 stroke with a new generation 4 stroke, I think that over a long period of operation, then the "total cost of ownership" will be all but be the same, like a 4 is dearer to buy, but MAY have better resale value, a 2 stroke uses oil, a 4 needs it changed and chucked away (which is pollution of some sort I guess) a 4 needs timing belts and so on changed, a 2 does not, so over a long time all these things even out, sure a salesman will tell you a 4 is quieter at idle (and so it may be) but at normal operating range, tests will tell you they are nearly the same noise levels (and neither can be above a set standard anyway) a 4 is heavier than a 2, well maybe so, but on a new boat, it will be built to take that into account!, so overall there will never be a clear winner, just get what YOU reckon suits your use and forget trying to convert the other technology user to your thinking 'cause it aint gunna happen, this debate will go on till we are all using something else entirely!

Noelm
17-07-2007, 02:29 PM
Jesus, I said way up the page I was not going to get into all these "worms" and I have, bugger.

Noelm
17-07-2007, 02:32 PM
and just to clear the air, I have a pair of NEW 2 strokes, a 4 stroke and an OLD carby Merc, so I guess I can speak with some sort of experience and forget all the emotion that goes with certain brands and 2 or 4 stroke debates

~Johno~
17-07-2007, 03:26 PM
I used to use a 2 stroke merc. Now i have a Yamaha 60hp 4 stroke, runs so beautiful. Never going back.

SgBFish
17-07-2007, 04:47 PM
Where are the ETEC boys?

russ81
17-07-2007, 04:56 PM
Hows it going guys

I have never owned a four stroke so i cant comment on them but I have just repowered with an ETEC and compared to the old carby model I had on it there is no comparison the ETEC is quite powerful and fuel efficient.

Russ

Dan5
17-07-2007, 09:01 PM
Well there you go pudzie clear as mud info.Most people not all people but most that have changed from 2 to 4 stroke will never go back the first time i used a honda 30hp in the early 90's i wanted a fourstroke they just suit my style of fishing ie> long trip's down big river's long period's of trolling and going to remote area's for a couple of day's at a time and generally fishing the snag's so lot's of idleing around for barra and whatever.Cheer's Dan.............

death_ship
17-07-2007, 09:05 PM
4 bangers are groovy baby yeah!

Dunco
18-07-2007, 08:36 AM
I'm interested in two motor's currently for my 460 plate boat. A 60hp 4st or a 70hp 2st yammy. Both are simmilar in price and close in weight. There is obviously a bit of dif in power. I will be idling a lot for estuary trolling and finding fish. The builder said that I should get 30-35 mph with the 60hp 4st. Is that quick enough?
The boat is 4mm so it takes a little bit to get it out of the water with a 60hp

I'd like to know what the sound difference is at idle and at full stick?

Can someone in the know do pro's and con's list for me

Noelm
18-07-2007, 08:42 AM
if the Yamaha is the "OLD" carby model, then the 4 stroke will be much quieter at idle, but the 70 will be much more powerfull, and as I said way back, there will never be an end to this debate (at least not for a few years)

Noelm
18-07-2007, 08:45 AM
I forgot to add, regardless of what people will say, there will not be a lot of difference at full speed, because the Yamaha is a carby model it will be slightly more noisey, but will still be within the required limits (it has to be) why not put all doubts and hearsay aside and ask for a run with both engines and then make your mind up, then you know for sure what you like, not what someone else has told you.

BM
18-07-2007, 09:36 AM
and just to clear the air, I have a pair of NEW 2 strokes, a 4 stroke and an OLD carby Merc, so I guess I can speak with some sort of experience and forget all the emotion that goes with certain brands and 2 or 4 stroke debates

Likewise, my experience comes in part form servicing the various engine types and the 150 odd boats I have sold over the last 4 yrs in business, many of which I water tested. The only engine I am yet to experience is a DI 2 stroke and that will be later this month on at a demo day in Melb. That will be a twin engine rig with Etecs.

Presently I own personally a boat thats in pieces (powered by a MerCruiser 488).........

So when it comes to engines I have no bias one way or the other, no axe to grind and no case to make.

Although I must admit that I prefer the lumpy, chunky sound of a V6 2 stroke Merc on earmuffs or the raw power sound it makes when you give it flat stick on the water (particularly if the midsection has been drilled for more "note" ;D ). But I can also appreciate times when a quiet engine could be handy.

Cheers

Hazard
20-07-2007, 05:43 PM
My first out board motor was a Johnston 70hp oil injected 2 stroke, and it served me very well and I never had one ounce of trouble with this motor.

I now own a 100hp Yamaha 4 stroke, and I am very pleased with it as well. Both motors are as different as can be, and, both were bought at different times for different reasons and for totally different boats.

Haz.

samson
20-07-2007, 06:13 PM
i've owned a few old carby two strokes and got plenty of use out of them some good some bad, i've owned a few etecs aswell happy with them also but i'm still yet to try a four stroke which from all the good reports on them probably won't be all that far away,but my decision will probably be based on milage out of my tanks if i can get an extra fifty odd km's out of a 600 Litre tank that will increase my range thus opening a few more options for me offshore, which by most reports costs even out in the long run which means it can only be a possitive decision going for a four stroke.

Steven78
20-07-2007, 06:19 PM
I have just got my DI 2 stroke. I had a 30hp 2 stroke before and the new 90 DI uses less fuel. I would have loved to go 4 stroke but the weight in the ass would have let me down.

cjbon58
02-08-2007, 11:59 AM
I've got this dilemma happening now too. I have owned a 50hp 4 stroke carby Merc and now have an 80hp 4 stroke Yami EFI. Both on the one boat - a 4.6 Stessl Bass Boss. Both were very good on fuel but I reckon both are louder than I expected they would be (maybe because of the small boat - you sit very close to the motor). I had carby trouble with the Merc and wouldn't even consider a carby 4 again. I'm now upgrading to a 5.25 Blue Fin Escape cuddy. I have the choise of 115 etec or 4 Stroke in the same size range with the etec giving the best price. But my old prejudice against 2 strokes is in the back of my mind. Everything I have read about the etec's is great but it sounds too good to be true. Will they get smokey with a bit of age? Will they hold their value? Are they really as quiet and smoke free as a 4 stroke? My head says go with the etec but my heart is giving me sleepless nights at the thought the etec may not be all its cracked up to be. Any advice from anyone with first hand experience on etec would be appreciated.

Noelm
02-08-2007, 01:37 PM
an etec cannot be compared to an OLD carby 2 stroke, end of story!!

Ron173
02-08-2007, 02:11 PM
4 strokes will die out and 2 stroke DI will be the future.

This may take a number of years, but it will happen.

High maintenance costs and over complexity will see to that.

4 strokes were an interim marketing option whilst 2 stroke technology came of age.

finding_time
02-08-2007, 03:05 PM
4 strokes will die out and 2 stroke DI will be the future.

This may take a number of years, but it will happen.

High maintenance costs and over complexity will see to that.

4 strokes were an interim marketing option whilst 2 stroke technology came of age.

Ron173::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)


And how long do you think this will take?


Why wiil manufactures stop making 4's when they have invested so much in them?


If this happens will e-tec oil will be $200 for 10L ( i'm sure it's getting close now::) )

And last question Want a bet? What's say no more 4s being made by 2011 that's 3.5 years. I'll put $10 000 on the fact that they will still be produced long past than;)


Ian


As far as the original question goes , if your going to do any trolling get the 4 stroke, there nicer to troll with and quieter both out of and in the water. If your just running from point a to b it wont make that much differance except for resale.

Ian

timddo
02-08-2007, 03:32 PM
hmm......

Di is just a glorified 2 stroke, with a few extra electronics and price tag really.
4 strokes will be the future as they get more advanced and complicated.

Ron no offence but if 4 stroke are going to be fased out why don't we see DI 2 stroke cars??????????????????????????????????????

I happy with my 2 stroke, even though i haven't got it yet , 2 more weeks to go.


Besides e-tec's should only be compared to DI 2 strokes and not 4 strokes, Comparing the two together is like apples and oranges.

Ron173
02-08-2007, 03:40 PM
Ron173::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)


And how long do you think this will take?


Why wiil manufactures stop making 4's when they have invested so much in them?


If this happens will e-tec oil will be $200 for 10L ( i'm sure it's getting close now::) )

And last question Want a bet? What's say no more 4s being made by 2011 that's 3.5 years. I'll put $10 000 on the fact that they will still be produced long past than;)


Ian


As far as the original question goes , if your going to do any trolling get the 4 stroke, there nicer to troll with and quieter both out of and in the water. If your just running from point a to b it wont make that much differance except for resale.

Ian

Dont know how long it will take, could be 10-15yrs, dont know but it will happen.

And yes manufacturers will stop making them no matter how much they have invested, not all investments work you know.

If no market to sell to, they wont make them, simple.

The whole concept of the marine outboard is simplicity and reliability, both in abundance in 2 strokes.

A few yrs ago it would have all been different, 2 strokes were polluting old type engines,

along came shiny new 4 strokes, expensive, higher maintenance, and heavier, but WORTH it in fuel saving, and emissions, possibly quiter too.

And so all was looking good, until 2 stroke DI was introduced, suddenly all those benefits of the 4 stroke have been removed.

Light weight, fuel efficient, emission compliant, simpler.........and because its a simple 2 stroke it will run for years and years after the 4 stroke has spat a cam chain at xxxhrs which means a rebuild which will cost more than the engine is worth.

The big question is the xxxhrs, that will dictate how long it will be before they start to die out.

But in time when there are no real benefits, and people realise that LONG term they are going to cost a LOT, they will be buying the DI option.

Just my opinion,

You will disagree and thats your opinion which you are entitled to also.

Ron

Ron173
02-08-2007, 03:51 PM
hmm......

Di is just a glorified 2 stroke, with a few extra electronics and price tag really.
4 strokes will be the future as they get more advanced and complicated.

Ron no offence but if 4 stroke are going to be fased out why don't we see DI 2 stroke cars??????????????????????????????????????

I happy with my 2 stroke, even though i haven't got it yet , 2 more weeks to go.


Besides e-tec's should only be compared to DI 2 strokes and not 4 strokes, Comparing the two together is like apples and oranges.

Thats it, why on earth would you want a more advanced and complicated engine??

Heaps more to go wrong when your out there and need it.

The car question has been posed lots of times, DI 2 stroke is used in racing quite extensively, and is being looked at for auto engines in general, so in future you may well see it there too, but its designed primarily for a marine environment and thats what we are talking about here.

No offence either, but do you actually know what you are talking about here, an ETEC IS A DI engine.

Wait till you get yours and learn a bit more about them in general.

I have at present a DI, have had 4 stroke, wouldnt go again, also just bought a small carby 2 stroke, and about to buy a big carby 2 stroke, so I've had a few to base my assumptions on.

Ron

Dunco
02-08-2007, 05:52 PM
Your pretty passionate Ron. But I think you gotta trim your nose down (punn intended) and look at both sides.

4 Stroke and 2 stroke DI have both got pro's and con's. There is enough info and forum posts for any half smart person to make up their mind on which type of engine would best suit there boat and needs.

In my opinion saying the 2 stroke DI will be in a production car is a bit far fetched.

Why wouldn't the marine industry follow the car market and start to produce hybrid engines. After all we are allready carrying batteries, they just gotta get Lithium into boats. That's the future

Dunco
02-08-2007, 05:54 PM
Ron if nothing got more advanced and complicated you wouldn't be typing on you keyboard.

saurian
02-08-2007, 06:33 PM
Ron good to see you pushing your beliefs. Passionate and precise but I'm sorry to think that you may be wasting your passion on short lived technology.
4 strokes will still be running long after the di 2 strokes are getting changed over for a newer super dooper 4 stroke, anyway I wish that diesel outboards where the focus not 2 strokes .
Ta

Ron173
02-08-2007, 09:15 PM
Your pretty passionate Ron. But I think you gotta trim your nose down (punn intended) and look at both sides.

4 Stroke and 2 stroke DI have both got pro's and con's. There is enough info and forum posts for any half smart person to make up their mind on which type of engine would best suit there boat and needs.

In my opinion saying the 2 stroke DI will be in a production car is a bit far fetched.

Why wouldn't the marine industry follow the car market and start to produce hybrid engines. After all we are allready carrying batteries, they just gotta get Lithium into boats. That's the future

No not passionate, not really fussed, dont really care what others think, but in my book, in 20yrs time, we wont be running 4 strokes, we will be running super fuel efficient 2 strokes.

just my opinion....... disagree...... fair enough...... couldnt give a rats...... time will tell who is right...... and who is out of pocket by choosing the exy 4 stroke....... each to his own....... but i dont think 4 stokes are worth:-

A- the purchase cost
B- the expensive servicing (anyone tells you otherwise is full of it!)
C- resale... crock of ------- you wont get it
D- 2 stroke oil costs-- BS you pay more for your 4 stoke sump oil which you throw away (for the greenies) and not to mention your exy filter
E- the big one...fuel saving.... another crock...... unless you are a pro who is on the water all day every day, you will never make it back in the lifetime of the engine - this goes both for DI and 4 strokes over 2 stroke.
F- noise.... yet to be convinced on this one... but who cares if ya goin fast ya wanna know it........ All this BS I cranked starter motor cos I thought it was stalled!!!! get a hearing aid is all i can say, if you cant hear your motor running you got probs, god sake, i can hear my electric!
G - Run the engine YOU want, not what this or any other govt (read usa) want, the pollution from your outboard is a miniscule amount in a HUGE big picture, it really wont kill your children.

And I didnt actually say DI would be in a production car, I just touched on yet another subject which is huge, and is not for discussion here.

Ron

saurian
02-08-2007, 09:34 PM
Ron , They only point out of all that , that I agree on is , none of them..... Maybe the pollution di/4stroke is close.
And yes put all the choices on the same boat in the same conditions .
Sounds like you might need to get out in a few boats with outboards 90 hp and above and experience the truth that you enjoy denying.
Most of your points are more emotionally based and more likely to have come from a bloke at the bar next to you than from being at the transom ..
But as you say , thats your opinion etc...
My opinion is I've never started my current 2 strokes twice but they have also never started twice straight up ...., but my previous 4 strokes I did on numerous occasions, and yes I have 95% hearing ( medical)
I can even feel when my 2 strokes are idling, let alone yell over the top of them as I try not to throw up from the blue smoke wafting back in the cab.
Spend the money and enjoy life ron , can't take it with you...
Ta

Ron173
02-08-2007, 10:24 PM
Ron , They only point out of all that , that I agree on is , none of them..... Maybe the pollution di/4stroke is close.
And yes put all the choices on the same boat in the same conditions .
Sounds like you might need to get out in a few boats with outboards 90 hp and above and experience the truth that you enjoy denying.
Most of your points are more emotionally based and more likely to have come from a bloke at the bar next to you than from being at the transom ..
But as you say , thats your opinion etc...
My opinion is I've never started my current 2 strokes twice but they have also never started twice straight up ...., but my previous 4 strokes I did on numerous occasions, and yes I have 95% hearing ( medical)
I can even feel when my 2 strokes are idling, let alone yell over the top of them as I try not to throw up from the blue smoke wafting back in the cab.
Spend the money and enjoy life ron , can't take it with you...
Ta

Mate,

some facts.

ok i currently run a 90hp motor, not guys at bar. MINE. OK.

I'm upgrading to a 115hp 2 stroke, as I cant justify the 6k extra for DI.

I'm not enjoying denying, I'm actually fair dinkum and own 2 boats not like half the 'magazine' boys on here, OK!

I run in big (ish depending on what you call big) motors all time with family, mates etc.

been there done it, done the 4 strokes, way too exy, for my workings.

My choice, my feelings, just posting like original poster asked.

You run your choice, I run mine, when we are older we will see whos right in time.

Dont get your blood pressure up, this is a forum, where debates are the go.

Nothing emotionally based here, must be your end, I run engines for enjoyment for me and family, not have relationships with them, you wanna get some advice on that one! LOL

Ron

saurian
03-08-2007, 07:04 AM
Good to see the emotion is still there.
Must be love lol....
Just don't buy MERC 115, as the below 1800 rpm thing will annoy the hell out of you, It's neither up/down when below 1800 rpm.
I agree on price difference , but for the families sake go a 4 stroke....
Ta

Noelm
03-08-2007, 08:38 AM
I think about 1,000 pages ago, I said "this will never end" and I think I might just be right! whatever motor YOU have is the best in the World, that's why you have it.

Ron173
03-08-2007, 01:30 PM
I think about 1,000 pages ago, I said "this will never end" and I think I might just be right! whatever motor YOU have is the best in the World, that's why you have it.

Noelm,

I've said a million times, dont exagerate!

Ron

Noelm
03-08-2007, 03:05 PM
OK then 900 pages ago!

Dunco
03-08-2007, 05:08 PM
Good one ron, I don't think he got it.