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View Full Version : Would you buy a new carby 2 stroke today?



Ron173
14-07-2007, 05:44 PM
I'd like to know the general opinions on this one?

I'm on the brink of making a decision on a new motor, I have no dramas with 2 stroke technology, the older type, its simple, etc. just a bit of reservation about possible bans in future.

So would you buy a carby 2 stroke today?

I'm NOT talking DI, and to save any issues, will keep the manufacturer out of it.

Any comments on bans etc would be welcome too. I heard that there is a movement to try to ban the sale of 2 strokes from 2010, but as far as I can gather existing owners will be allowed to carry on using them.

I've not set up a poll b4 but am going to try one on this, your vote, views and opinions welcolmed.

Ron

Spaniard_King
14-07-2007, 06:02 PM
Ron, I voted no but I would buy one if I was looking for under ... 30 hp over 30 I would rather an engine thats quite and smooth hard to get that with a 2 stroke carby over 30hp and most engines other than 2 stroke carby models are EFI and are very easy to start.

TheSaint
14-07-2007, 06:02 PM
I would.. I'm looking at getting a new 30hp 3cyl one..

seatime
14-07-2007, 06:03 PM
G'day, guess it might depend on your plans on where you'll use it, how often, what size, etc.

e.g. if it was to go on the back of a 12-14' tinnie and was going to be used regularly around the Pin or other salty, type waterways, than maybe it would be cost effect.

However, if it was going on a 18-20'er to troll and fish occasionally, and depending on days off and weather, I'd say no thanks.

Ron173
14-07-2007, 06:25 PM
Thanks 4 input.

No fairly big un, (115) to be used on impoundments.

Rgds

Ron

finga
14-07-2007, 07:04 PM
oops I voted yes then read over 115hp.
Then nope would be the answer. :)

nigelr
14-07-2007, 07:24 PM
Same as Finga, 90 or bigger I'd say no, personally prob look at E-tec, as we have a great dealer/service outlet here.
Very happy with my Tojo 2 stroke carby 30 tho!
Cheers.

Chimo
14-07-2007, 07:42 PM
Hi

I would have to ask how often you will use the boat and if its a larger motor and not used all the time I would consider carby as older fuel does not seem to be such an issue as they seem to be a lot less particular. :P

I have 2 carby 115s and use the boat on and off and still keep the tank full all the time (about 200lt) and don't seem to have any probs with them. ::) Mind you there is some smoke on start up by my mech says thats great as the motors won't wear out ............;) he reckons they should be good for thousands of hrs but I don't know if I'll keep em that long.

The other issue is whos going to service the motor, I'd probably talk to your mechanic and take his input on board too. 8-)

Good luck which ever way you go with it

Cheers
Chimo

tunaticer
14-07-2007, 07:49 PM
I would definitely opt for a efi model two stroke with a 115hp without doubt. It will be a big investment to buy that motor so therefore in a few yrs when the ban comes in you wont be basically blacklisted when you go to sell it off.

If it was for a lil creek boat and u-p to say 30hp i would prolly get carbies cuz ppl dun really care too much for that style of boat as to whether its carb or efi.

Jack.

Ron173
14-07-2007, 08:52 PM
UPDATE,

Votes currently running 60 / 40 in favour of stroker, thats good, its encouraging and what I would like to hear.

All votes appreciated greatly, keep em coming,

Ron

PS remember.......if she aint smokin......shes broken!!!!

Sea-Dog
14-07-2007, 10:18 PM
Just on price, sure the carby model.

Don't get me wrong - I'd like to get an EFI, but for 5K extra for a 75Hp in EFI, it would take an awful lot of hours to recoup the price difference in fuel costs.

There is also the weight issue. The EFI jobs are about 60Kg heavier for the same Hp.

That makes a lot of difference in some small boats.

snelly1971
14-07-2007, 11:39 PM
I voted yes...200 Yammie..15k 200 optimax or four stroke 20k...just cant see how i would save 5 k of fuel in the life of the motor plus the added costs of servicing new 2s or 4s....and finally most of the carbie 2s that are still in production are proven motors....time tells I suppose...

Cheers Mick

wessel
15-07-2007, 01:29 AM
Because of the remote location and the difficulty of getting hold of a half decent techie that can work on an engine, I would opt for a 2 stroke.

If there was a half decent local dealer available, then definately i would opt for the "other" technology. yes it comes at a price, but the smell of two stroke early in the morning starts to loose its appeal after a while. And the abillity to hear yourself think at full gas.....

Wessel

bluefin59
15-07-2007, 06:05 AM
I have a 2stroke carb model it has the ability to adjust the flow of oil so as not to gumm up the motor while trolling and in reality not that noisie in comparison to the older motors at 4 grand me and the misses can still talk while running across the bay without screaming so i think there great for the price , bluefin59

blaze
15-07-2007, 06:54 AM
Proven technology over a long period, not saying the new motors airnt good. For the occaisional boater that only does a few hrs a year the cost of new technology is still to great in difference to proven technoligy of the carbie. And oh so simple
cheers
blaze

FNQCairns
15-07-2007, 07:36 AM
Ron for what you want it for, absolutly not!
Wouldn't consider a carb traditional 2 st. There are people with rubber stamps in Goverment just itching to take some more basic movement away, they will be banned on freshwater impoundments sooner or later, the zelot's rule, be proactive and go with a sky is falling 4st or DI 2st.

cheers fnq

hondaguy
15-07-2007, 08:03 AM
What type of impoundment fishing? I'd go carby 2st and get a bow mount electric and 2 deep cycle battries. Set up with a proper charging system you should not run out 12volt power even if you troll all day. Make sure you wire in a 240 volt charging to refresh over night or set up so your tow veichle can charge the boat battries to and from the boat ramp. If your in QLD I would not worry about a ban on 2st for a while yet.

Ron173
15-07-2007, 08:35 AM
Ron for what you want it for, absolutly not!
Wouldn't consider a carb traditional 2 st. There are people with rubber stamps in Goverment just itching to take some more basic movement away, they will be banned on freshwater impoundments sooner or later, the zelot's rule, be proactive and go with a sky is falling 4st or DI 2st.

cheers fnq
We really like this boat, they are custom made, dealer who is selling only deals in Yamahas.

F115 whilst way more exy, wont have the guts for pulling skiers up, and too heavy. HPDI dont start till 150hp

(thought better add this in before all the 4 banger fans get up me, the F115 is a good economic engine just doesnt suit me)

Thought about buying hull from him and getting motor from elsewhere, or get him to buy motor from elsewhere but thats surely gotta be way exy option.

Ron

Greg P
15-07-2007, 08:46 AM
Ron - it's your boat, dont let the dealer dictate what engine you put on it. You should not pay more getting a donk somewhere else but it depends where this guy is making the majority of margin in the BMT package.

Should only be around 500-600 to fit and rig the outboard and you would be paying that anyway.



Cheers

Greg


ps once you go with a new hi-tech donk you wont go back ;)

Ron173
15-07-2007, 08:51 AM
Ron - it's your boat, dont let the dealer dictate what engine you put on it. You should not pay more getting a donk somewhere else but it depends where this guy is making the majority of margin in the BMT package.

Should only be around 500-600 to fit and rig the outboard and you would be paying that anyway.



Cheers

Greg


ps once you go with a new hi-tech donk you wont go back ;)

Greg,

I know hi techs are good, had an etec, what I mean is if dealer A is to buy an engine from dealer B, the cost of that engine from dealer B is going to be pretty much list.

Might look into it further

Ron

Ron173
15-07-2007, 05:58 PM
Given this heaps of thought, and lots of discussion with family and friends.

Were pretty set to go the big stroker, and my reasoning is thus:-

The difference in purchase cost of DI or 4 stroke, IMO in fuel saving, is not recoverable in the life of the engine, when you add the cost of servicing, oil, filters etc. (Bearing in mind its the DIFFERENCE as DI or 4 stroke your still puttin fuel in)

I know I will have 2 stroke oil to factor in but its not as exy as some would have it, and no filter and no valve clearances and no belts, or exy services.

(mates F100 initial service at 20hrs $325! and it has an issue and is chewing belts, on 3rd one now, albeit warranty)

Yes it will be a bit smellier, but even new basic 2 strokes nowadays with oil injection back off to 200:1 at idle, so technology still helping there.

The ban issues.... yes will always be a worry, but could spend heaps n get DI and some councilor says we are banning ALL 2 strokes regardless, and youd never get it thru to them.
Worse still you could go 4 stroke thinking safe, then they ban all outboards except electrics on water supply impoundments.

Not to mention the instant power we need for skiing.

I have no issue with 4 strokes, they have their place, big big HP, trolling, high useage, just not fitting our useage.

So make hay while sun shines, if they bring in bans we will cross that bridge when we come to it.
The boating fraternity where I am is big and its all on local impoundments, would be a big outcry if bans came in.

Thanks for everyones input, the votes still rolling in, and the yes is still well in front.

Rgds

Ron

FNQCairns
15-07-2007, 09:14 PM
Hey Ron, if you did choose a 4st there should be no problem skiing with it, simply prop it down to suit and it will do it easily.

IMO it will not be long before selected impoundments start to ban the public with traditional 2 st engines, it's too easy a mark for them for them not to, if history is anything to go by and unusually they will have at least a small case of truth to back up their regulation this time.

I was faced not too long ago with the identical choice, I wanted to have an engine that the regulators could not use as an excuse to ban my family from nearby impoundments but do not fully trust the new technology over the life of the engine as it relates to cost of ownership in total.

Chose a secondhand 2st as it will have by far the lowest cost of ownership over 10/15 years of any other choice new or used, my second choice was a Suzuki 4st 90/115. Based mainly on the timing chain and warrenty advantage it had over the Yamaha, also a little on the Yammi making oil reports I continue to hear over the years.

So I guess there is nothing a person cannot do in a 4st of the same hp as the 2 st but a person must accommodate it with a prop that will allow the relative lack of performance to be tuned toward the chosen application.

cheers fnq

disorderly
15-07-2007, 09:31 PM
Hi Ron,

The whole problem here is that you are after a BMT package deal and the dealer basically has you by the b@lls by only offering 1 brand of motor.
Cant you buy the boat elsewhere or do as Greg P says and wrangle something to put on your motor of choice rather than all he has on offer?
good luck with it anyway.

Regards Scott

onerabbit
15-07-2007, 09:52 PM
It really depends on the reason for your choice,

my 2 stroke carb feed 115 is only 18months old, but i'll be trading it for a new one before she's out of warranty.

It really depends what you do with it, my decision was based on bar crossings.

My mechanic mate advised me the carb feed 2strokes had more immediate reaction when you asked it the question...as in a hectic crossing.
She hasn't let me down yet.

Muzz

Ron173
16-07-2007, 07:20 AM
It really depends on the reason for your choice,

my 2 stroke carb feed 115 is only 18months old, but i'll be trading it for a new one before she's out of warranty.

It really depends what you do with it, my decision was based on bar crossings.

My mechanic mate advised me the carb feed 2strokes had more immediate reaction when you asked it the question...as in a hectic crossing.
She hasn't let me down yet.

Muzz

So why would you be trading it then, and what type are you replacing it with?

Rgds

Ron

Getout
16-07-2007, 07:21 AM
Ron, You can bet your bottom dollar that carby 2-strokes and maybe all outboards will be banned from impoundments in the future. Many impoundments already do ban petrol motors. You'd be mad to buy a noisy carby 2 stroke for your use. Get a DI or a 4 stroke for sure.

Ron173
16-07-2007, 11:58 AM
Ron, You can bet your bottom dollar that carby 2-strokes and maybe all outboards will be banned from impoundments in the future. Many impoundments already do ban petrol motors. You'd be mad to buy a noisy carby 2 stroke for your use. Get a DI or a 4 stroke for sure.

Would be nice, etec 6k more, minister of finance putting limits on things.

mini696
16-07-2007, 01:47 PM
Yes, just recently purchased a 25hp Yamaha, the four strokes were too heavy, and cost too much, the resale value wasn't comparable, and the fuel savings wasn't either.

If I was going bigger than a 30 I would definately look at the 4 strokes.

Also if it was for fishing fresh water I would also definately for 4 strokes.

PADDLES
16-07-2007, 01:55 PM
I voted yes Ron. But it depends on how you look at things.

Financially, there is a crossover point where you do enough hours per year to make the fuel/oil savings pay for the initial purchase difference plus the interest on that amount plus the slight increase in servicing costs. If you do less hours then it's not worth it.

The other way to look at it is pollution. Conventional 2s engines are not real efficient things and they do pollute a whole heap more than the newer technologies. If you wanted to be more responsible to the environment and were willing to pay for it then the newer technology is the go.

It's like having a finance devil on one shoulder whispering in your ear and an environmentalist devil on the other.

PS. I've got a 2s carby 135 V6 that will probably be replaced by a newer technology motor if it ever dies and not before either. And no, I don't do enough hours to justify it either.

Sea-Dog
16-07-2007, 02:48 PM
Maybe if we were to buy DI 2strokes or 4 strokes we could justify to our respective ministers of war & finance that the only financially responsible thing to do is go fishing more often................ :D:D:D


No dear, I didn't think so either........:'(

timddo
16-07-2007, 02:58 PM
i'm getting a 115 2 stroke on my new boat. Proven technology and less parts. Yamaha too. The price of a 4 banger was $4000 different. I think the most important things are hole shots - a few seconds can mean life and death.

As for banning 2 strokes in salt water and rivers -- i don't think so ( they gotta buy back all the old motors then. With fresh impoundments - i don't fish anyway.


But if i had extra $4000 to throw away, i would like a 4 banger.

cheers

Ron173
16-07-2007, 03:01 PM
Maybe if we were to buy DI 2strokes or 4 strokes we could justify to our respective ministers of war & finance that the only financially responsible thing to do is go fishing more often................ :D:D:D


No dear, I didn't think so either........:'(


Good one!!! LOL

Yeah agree with a lot of suggestions of banning on impoundments, but the conscensus (spelling?) of opinion locally here is that the water supply dam we run on, if they ban, they will ban ALL motors, so could spend extra 5-6k and still be stuffed and feel really ripped off.

Also I'm fortunate to have another 2 impoundments nearby which are not public water supplies, one was made specifically as a recreation area, doubt they ban strokers on that one.

If it ever comes to that its time to stop boating anyway...............

.............. maybe there will be a govt buyback scheme!!!

Ron

Ron173
16-07-2007, 03:06 PM
i'm getting a 115 2 stroke on my new boat. Proven technology and less parts. Yamaha too. The price of a 4 banger was $4000 different. I think the most important things are hole shots - a few seconds can mean life and death.

As for banning 2 strokes in salt water and rivers -- i don't think so ( they gotta buy back all the old motors then. With fresh impoundments - i don't fish anyway.


But if i had extra $4000 to throw away, i would like a 4 banger.

cheers

looks like we are buying same donk. Well proven, been on sale here since 83, just now has a bit of electronics controlling the oil injection and the timing, making it better still.
Told you cant kill em, almost bullet proof. Maybe shouldnt tempt fate though eh.


Ron

Jackinthebox
16-07-2007, 04:38 PM
Hi Ron,

I couldn't go back to a 2 stroke after having a suzi 15hp 4 banger for a couple of years. My merc 15 2stroke was a great engine but after too many years of welding, my lungs can't hack the smoke & fumes of a 2stroke anymore.

I can drive around & idle for a couple of hours on 6 to 8 litres of juice with the suzi & breathe nice clean air. That's not to say that the new 2 strokes in the bigger sizes are super smoky, but they do affect me a hell of a lot more.

Has anyone got a 4stroke merc 40hp or 50hp? I am looking to buy a new rig soon & would like some feedback on this engine.

Cheers,
Mick.

reidy_g
18-07-2007, 04:43 PM
If fuel cost savings is the primary consideration you need to look closely at the sums. I weighed up getting a Mercury 90hp 2 stroke vs. a Mercury 90hp Optimax (2 stroke DI), which gets similar economy to a 4 stroke. I also factored in interest on the extra outlay. I used these assumptions: $2500 extra outlay for DI option, average fuel $1.30, interest on the standard boat loan 7.95%, 30hrs usage p.a., average 40 km/hr. Based on Mercury’s stats of 3.28 km/L for the 90 Optimax with 45% better economy than the 2 stroke (2.13km/L) the fuel saving per year is around $260. Take out the interest cost on the extra outlay of $2500 and I would be only $60 better off per annum with the Optimax. I’d need 44 years to break even!!!!!

You can fiddle with the variables (fuel cost, interest, usage etc) but the result is the same….many, many years to recoup your original outlay. With the 4 stroke you need to factor in extra service costs as well.

My conclusion: Unless you’re debt-free doing above-average hours with big hp it’s not worth the extra outlay getting DI or a 4 stroke based on fuel economy alone. As others have said, if you want to upgrade it should be because of resale, ease of use, quietness and environmental factors, not any perceived saving.

FNQCairns
18-07-2007, 06:18 PM
Reidy that's more or less the result I have come to in the past when I have run the figure's, no way to make the new tech engines a financial win with any certainty over time.

For this reason I chose an old style 90hp 2 st secondhand, expect over the life of the engine say min 2k hours min this will cost me around $1.80 per engine hour based solely on the total cost to source, refurbish and rig to turnkey all running costs are above this as is servicing for which I am not indebted to warrenty so I can do that all myself. Damn cheap boating!!
But I will buy a new or near new 4st just as soon the engine I choose starts to show parts in wreckers as all motors do sooner or later, expect this to be no later and actually sooner than in history past.

cheers fnq

PADDLES
19-07-2007, 09:22 AM
yep ,that was my conclusion too reidy. the other factor is that because there's so many people willing to part with some hard earned to buy a new technology large outboard (say 115hp and up). there's been quite a few second hand ones that are still quite good for sale at very reasonable prices.

onerabbit
19-07-2007, 04:07 PM
So why would you be trading it then, and what type are you replacing it with?

Rgds

Ron
Hi Ron, when it happens, I will be trading the 06 Merc 115 on a new model of the same motor, it has been an absolute powerhouse.

The main reasons for trading so soon are economics,

if I sell still within warranty, I get a better trade-in price, I also avoid possible breakdown costs if I keep it outside of warranty, it doesn't take much to cost you $1,000.

Peace of mind is also worth something, we fish the shelf when we can, I'd hate to have problems out there, & if the time comes that i can't afford to trade up again, the motor I have at that time will still be relatively new,

just my opinion,

Muzz

cormorant
24-07-2007, 10:53 PM
Reidy that's more or less the result I have come to in the past when I have run the figure's, no way to make the new tech engines a financial win with any certainty over time.

For this reason I chose an old style 90hp 2 st secondhand, expect over the life of the engine say min 2k hours min this will cost me around $1.80 per engine hour based solely on the total cost to source, refurbish and rig to turnkey all running costs are above this as is servicing for which I am not indebted to warrenty so I can do that all myself. Damn cheap boating!!
But I will buy a new or near new 4st just as soon the engine I choose starts to show parts in wreckers as all motors do sooner or later, expect this to be no later and actually sooner than in history past.

cheers fnq

Because of propietary parts and the complication in the 4 strokes you can expect many in the wreckers soon and not a lot of parts left over as they will move fast. Expect a lot of specific theft like heads and injectors as new prices are criminal. A belt break or component failure with overlapping valves / piston is disasterous and a bloody expensive repair on a motor doing 6000 revs. Compared to an average of 2800 revs for a car motor any lack of oil change with small sump capacity will see them have wear problems. In the US they have enough volume to offer short and long remanufactured powerheads off the shelf with a $500 core value so in a few years I think we are going to see this in Australia as marine mechanics are charging too much as they are all small time and are calling themselves specialists.

Nothing wrong with carby 2 stroke motors as long as they have clean fuel , right oil and are used regularly and are maintained. many people think the old carby jobs don't need maintaince but the do and to run right they need to be tuned properly. The 2 stroke direct injection are good but the extra price isn't justified and the longevity of them isn't proven yet. Along the same line is the 4 strokes thet just don't sem to be going the distance.

With years of experience doing a fair few hours on 3 family boats between us just about every failure except for neglect and user error or accident, 90 plus % on newer motors problems are caused by the original set up with wrong propping , wrong oils , mounted wrong heights , no original service check and service technicians at the shop who are not trained or just don't do their job. I really wonder how some manufacturers put up with their dealers as some are pathetic.

I reckon buying from the right shop and getting the right service is esention regardless of what brand or style and getting the warranty honoured is half the battle won.

billfisher
25-07-2007, 08:43 AM
No original sevice check seems to be common. One dealer in Sydney used to sell Tohatsu's. He now bags them to anyone who will listen because of all the warranty claims. I bought one off him. The delivery service specified tensioning the cylinder head and adjusting the carby. Well all the carby setting were wrong and the paint was still intact on the cylinder bolts! Another Tohatsu dealer told me he had only ever had one new one come back with problems and this one hadn't been seviced for two years.

whiteman
25-07-2007, 01:18 PM
My 2S 115 Yammy Saltwater is a fantastic motor. Goes like a rocket and easy to service. It is a little smoky which affects people prone to sea-sickness (my kids). And its biggest problem is the limit on range because of its relatively high fuel consumption. A 110l tank allows me to plan a 120km trip in fair weather (it'll get 180km if all was perfect). An equivalent 4S like the Suzuki - which would be my choice for replacement - will increase the range by 50%, easliy getting me to the reef and back from my ramp. If you are not worried about range, carbon credits and oily smoke, go the 2S.

Gary Fooks
25-07-2007, 05:17 PM
Rumours about 2 Strokes
Here are the facts
1. Two government reports came out last month: one on outboards and one on garden Equipment ( lawn mowers, brush cutter etc)
2. For lawn Mowers etc they are moving straight to a cost benefit analysis - which will prove that legislation is needed. The industry have already agreed to a timetable that sees regulation starting 2008, and the last 2 stroke carby sold in 2012.
3. For outboards the government has said they will try the OEDA star rating scheme for a 2 year trial. If that does not reduce the proportion of high emission engines from 63% to a much lower number ( not stated - but personal guess is 20%) then they will legislate.
4. There is no talk of compensation etc because there is no ban. Its just that you won’t be able to buy a carby 2 stroke after a certain date.
5. The USA EPA also announced a new standard from 2009. IF it happens as announced then in the USA they will only have 4 strokes and one brand of DI 2 strokes.
6. Regulations in Australia are likely to follow the USA EPA rules. The reports seem to indicate this is their thinking.

As for a 115hp carby 2 stroke: it puts out 13.7kg MORE emissions in a typical hour than a 3 star engine. That’s just the nasty two : Hydrocarbons and NOx. Carbon Monoxide and greenhouse gasses is in addition.
Unbelievable when I first got my hands on this data - but since checked and proven. Its from the USA EPA database with the numbers submitted by the manufacturers and audited.
My guess is that not enough guys will think of buying 3 star - even though they pay for themselves in fuel saved, higher resale and the benefits of quiet running, no smell etc. So that means I guess we will have legislation ... and probably at the same time as lawn mowers.
If anyone wants the hard data and reports I am happy to send them. Please don’t PM - rather you email me g.fooks@uq.net.au (g.fooks@uq.net.au)

Gary

reidy_g
25-07-2007, 07:03 PM
..that's right Gary. They do "pay for themselves with fuel saved", it just takes decades to do it. I'd be interested to see your calcs on how they pay for themselves for the average fisho allowing for higher servicing costs and interest on the substantially higher outlay. I'm sure the manufacturers won't make any fuss about being legislated into only selling the more expensive outboard option (and all those profitable parts that go with them). Yet another group profiting from all this climate change crap at the expense of the poor old fisho. Where will all this end????

davo
25-07-2007, 09:29 PM
I voted no but did buy a 9.8 Tohastu because of the lower hours of use, weight, price, and simplicity. For the larger motor I could not go past the 4 stroke 60HP Yammy. It was only $1K most expensive than a 2 banger and only 10Kg heavier.

Deiter
25-07-2007, 09:34 PM
Yet another group profiting from all this climate change crap

Reidy, I reckon you nailed it right there. There can be no arguement that if climate change were to be shown to be the crock that it is, there would be many businesses in many industries who stand to lose a great deal, and conversely stand to make a motsa from scaremongering in the current economic climate (pardon the pun). downright disgusting imho.

Damo

Gary Fooks
25-07-2007, 09:54 PM
Climate change is off topic - if I may. I have not measured greenhouse gasses.

The emissions I talk about are hydrocarbons - basically unburnt fuel and oil and oxides of nitrogen - which, when added to water forms nitric Acid (acid rain). These are the nasties thar are almost fixed in cars. To put them on the same scale a car is rated at under 4 (g/kw/hr) and a carby 2 stroke about 249.

I wonder how people can justify pushing out and extra 13.7 kg of unburnt fuel and oil and nitric acid for evey hour they run? I mean now that they know.

In one of the reports: if 6 home owners in a block of 10 houses use their 2 stroke lawn mower on Sat afternoon thats the same as 240 cars driving around the block for an hour.

I am not greenie loony - but now I know this information I cant justify buying a carbie 2 stroke. I would be to ashamed every time I used it.

What would you say to me if you saw me dump a 5 litre pack of used sump oil on your fishing area? Well using a 115 hp carby 2 stroke is worse than that.

I said that 3 Star motors pay for themselves in Fuel save (about 50%) AND pay for themselves in other ways such as higher resale, longer life , less smell , less noise.

If you are still saying that you would buy a 2 stroke carby - then I know why we need legislation, and why the voluntary labelling scheme will fail.

Every time I hear the greeny loonies say they want to stop fishing I hear fishers saying "we care about the environment - we love it, we take care of it" . Will this is the test: will they buy low polluting motors? - do fishers really care is is that just BS?

Gary

reidy_g
26-07-2007, 04:19 AM
Thanks Gary. You may not have measured greenhouse gasses...but you did mention them in your discussion (as most do to add impact to this sort of argument) so I'm not sure it is off topic. "Acid rain" also has great impact. Sells plenty of newspapers. I'm still interested to see some calcs on how a 4 stroke or 2 stroke Di pays for itself in fuel savings based on mid-range hp and average usage and hrs of use? In my earlier thread I've disclosed mine. 44 years to break even based on my historical usage. "It pays for itself in fuel savings" is just the sort of throw-away line used by dealers and manufacturers to sell more expensive product. To me the "emissions" stuff is the same.....a tactic to sell more expensive product. The point of my earlier thread was if you don't challenge these statements they become accepted as fact. Its healthy to do the same with emissions. What exactly is the collective impact of outboards on the environment? Is comparing outboards to vehicles (or lawnmowers) valid based on the number in use in any one place at any one time? What impact does 13.7kg have? It may be significant but I'd like to see some evidence of the actual impact rather than just arbitrary figures. I'm happy to stand corrected.

You and everyone else is entitled to make the choice based on emissions if you like and I support your right to choose. To me my choice based on price, reliability and self-servicability is no less valid. What I don't like is legislation (based on pressure group politics and little else) removing my right to choose to buy a 2 stroke, fish in Moreton Bay etc etc.

Cheers.

Gary Fooks
26-07-2007, 07:36 AM
If you send me your email address I will send you a research paper. Some species of mangrove in Moreton Bay are dropping albino seeds. These seeds are sterile and dont survive. The cause is Hydrocarbons in the water.

I dont know what impact your 13.7 kg has - of course: so its a silly question. I do know it put out 20 or 30 times more than me .

These are not arbitrary figures - but hard data
A question for you: we go fishing in my boat - and I pour out 3 oil packs of nasty stuff into the water on the way - do you think its Ok if I do that?

If you cant see that is wrong - just plain wrong, then it just convinces me that 18 months work was a compete waste. - to give fishing a reprive: the voluntary labelling scheme - so we can do the right thing, ( Instead of legislation) The idea was that if we can get down from 63% high emission emission engines sold in 2005 to say 20% of new sales then we would not need legislation.

Given the resistance above and in other similar conversations my hopes are fading.

Anway - time will tell if anglers are mugs or do deserve to be left to care for the environment. This is our test guys.

Gary

billfisher
26-07-2007, 08:16 AM
Gary, I don't think the greenies have any trouble finding (or making up) reasons to lock us out of the environment whether 2 strokes are banned or not.

Do you have an figures on the uptake of low polluting motors? Just about every large or mid sized fishing rig that is realtively new seems to have a four stroke or Etec on the back from my observations. 2 strokes are more popular on smaller craft - but these must be far less polluting based on fuel consumption alone.

PADDLES
26-07-2007, 08:31 AM
hey reidy, you've got to go easy on gary here. remember in my earlier post how i mentioned that you will have a financial angel on one shoulder whispering in your ear and an environmentalist angel on the other shoulder. well here's the environmental whisper from gary. whilst i partly disagree with his "the motor will pay for itself in fuel savings" theory because you need to do plenty of hours for this to happen, (this is why commercial operators are loving these new technology motors) i completely agree with his pollution statement, a conventional 2s pollutes the water so much more than the newer tech outboards it's almost criminal. even though i own a conventional 2s i do think that government should ban the sale of new ones and shift towards cleaner technology in new outboards. you will still be able to buy second hand and keep your existing carby 2s but will no longer be able to buy a new one to replace it. this has already happened in the automotive industry and now should happen in the marine industry. i am not saying this because of global warming either because i am a sceptic on global warming, i am saying this with a view purely on water pollution.

Ron173
26-07-2007, 09:58 AM
And we just fork out an extra 6k for this privelage of having a cleaner motor.

I'll buy one if John Howard or others are gonna pay the 6k extra, I know one thing, I CERTAINLY am not.

And whilst I can see all the environmental issues etc bla bla

I really dont think that if we stopped all 2 stroke engines completely tomorrow, lawnmowers n all, that it would make a big impact if at all.
In Australia we are a small contributor to world polution levels, and our outboards are an even smaller component of the big picture.

There are heaps more environmental issues that need looking at before we start picking on outboards.

The USA have become pollution obsesive, and the rest of the world is following.

Make your engine choice the one you want, not what USA wants you to buy.

Ron

reidy_g
26-07-2007, 10:04 AM
No worries Paddles. I welcome your opinion along with Gary's. As I said, everyone is entitled to make the choice based on emissions if they like and I support your right to choose. But my decision based on price, reliability and self-servicability is no less valid.

What gives me the irrits is this "its voluntary as long as you comply, or it will be mandatory" mentality. Not much of a choice, is it?

Gary, you've clearly done alot of work in this area (BTW feel free to offer a Disclosure of Interest next time), and I respect that, but you both don't appear to accept any challenging of your assumptions, and that's dangerous (and potentially flawed) science. I am aware that 2 strokes have more emissions than 4 strokes, but I'm still waiting for someone to answer my simple question: to provide evidence as to the extent that 2 stroke emissions specifically are causing any environmental damage. I wouldn't say wanting specific evidence of causality is "silly". To the contrary, assumptions without evidence of causality is specoius reasoning.


Accepting the mangrove damage from hydrocarbons, there are numerous sources for Hydrocarbons that are responsible.

Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons (PAHs) "enter the environment mostly as releases to air from volcanoes, forest fires, residential wood burning, and exhaust from automobiles and trucks. They enter surface water through discharges from industrial plants and waste water treatment plants, and they can be released to soils at hazardous waste sites if they escape from storage containers. (Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry). PAH's can ALSO enter the marine ecosystem through "water runoff from streets, and rain collecting particulates from the air and depositing them in waterways." (http://www.envirotest.com.au/cstudies/sediment.htm). Where specifically is the mangrove damage you are referring to Gary? Anywhere near the mouth of the Brisbane River which is the main conduit for surface water run-off and heavy industry? I wonder if the exact proportion of 2 stroke-related damage was known whether a potential call for banning them would stand up?

As for "pour out 3 oil packs of nasty stuff into the water on the way", colourful stuff, along with "acid rain" and greenhouse emissions. Al Gore couldn't have penned better himself.

When someone provides the answer to my question, I'm happy to recant. Until then, I'll continue to enjoy guilt-free boating.


http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=gary+fooks&meta=

Wahoo
26-07-2007, 10:19 AM
I'd like to know the general opinions on this one?

I'm on the brink of making a decision on a new motor, I have no dramas with 2 stroke technology, the older type, its simple, etc. just a bit of reservation about possible bans in future.

So would you buy a carby 2 stroke today?

I'm NOT talking DI, and to save any issues, will keep the manufacturer out of it.

Any comments on bans etc would be welcome too. I heard that there is a movement to try to ban the sale of 2 strokes from 2010, but as far as I can gather existing owners will be allowed to carry on using them.

I've not set up a poll b4 but am going to try one on this, your vote, views and opinions welcolmed.

Ron
would never go back to a 2s after owning a few 4strokes
the 4s are getting better n better some even has the same weight as the 2s and fuel figures are 20-40% better than some s2

as for baning 2s this wont happen by then

Daz

PADDLES
26-07-2007, 11:34 AM
reidy you can challenge my assumptions on the pollution issue any time because that's all they are, assumptions. i don't know any hard and fast info, all i know is that when i start up my motor there's a bit of smoke and a bit of an oily sheen on the water around the leg and i do think to myself that i'm polluting a bit. i have no idea of the impact of my pollution on the environment, but at the end of the day i can still see it. if 2s oil was biodegradeable i'd be happier. but realistically i'll be sticking with what i've got (big carby 2s) and don't begrudge anyone over their right to choose the type of powerplant that suits them the most, whether they have based that decision on money or on the environment. as long as they haven't based their decision on mis-information.

gary, has the impact of conventional 2s marine engines on water quality been studied/quantified? if so, what is the real impact? has the impact of run off water on water quality say here in moreton bay been studied/quantified? how much do conventional 2s engines contribute as a percentage of overall pollution say in moreton bay?

reidy_g
26-07-2007, 12:01 PM
Thanks Paddles. My argument precisely: what proportion of environmental damage is directly attributed to the usage of 2 stroke outboards? What specifically is the damage? What is the evidence to support the claim? Has the evidence stood up to statistical validation? I'll go buy a 4 banger tomorrow if someone gives a sound answer. Until then, financial angel wins!!!! I've got kids to feed.

Cheers.

Ron173
26-07-2007, 01:01 PM
Gary,

Qoute
I wonder how people can justify pushing out and extra 13.7 kg of unburnt fuel and oil and nitric acid for evey hour they run? I mean now that they know.
Unquote

Since 1ltr weighs approx 1kg, are you saying we are putting 13ltrs of unburnt fuel an hour out the exhaust?

Whilst I agree 2 strokes are a bit dirtier, and there is a point in the cycle where the ports are both open for a nano second, I cant really see that one.

My decision is financial, as I too have kids to feed, but people who say you will save in fuel on a DI or 4 banger are incorrect, unless you are talking over many years, like about 12yrs for me.

By then we will all be on solar powered electrics after the govt buy back scheme on 2 strokes.

Ron

Jackinthebox
26-07-2007, 05:31 PM
This is for anyone that questions the 2 stroke pollution issue.

That oily scum you wash off the side of your boat after a day on the water with plenty of other boats around, I wonder where that comes from?

FNQCairns
26-07-2007, 06:16 PM
The local sewerage treatment plant is a good place for a person to get their head around pollution and the environment, a good dose of hydrocarbons from dumpers can knock a treatment plant out, until the flora has been seeded and bloomed again, so hydrocarbons can cause problems.

The treatment plant mimics the environment by design, a V8stinky O/B run on double oil in one of their tanks wouldn't pollute more than the extra airation/circulation from it would promote cleanliness.

Feed your tomatoes a little fertilizer and it thrives feed it too much and it dies, we are not even within 100-100000 years?? of overfeeding the marine environment with our O/Bs.

The point is the environment (I use that term loosely) chews hydrocarbons they eat it up (literally) the env can be overwhelmed but it's a magnitude so far above present levels of outboard motor use in Australia in the marine environment.

I dunno how about a new slogan! Grow the environment drive a stinky outboard??:(

It's has much to do with scale, who if they had a heart attack would visit the Quack who will prescribe a dose of one molecule in 100 billion of active ingredient works (yes they do exist) or the doc who uses science??

Much the same argument IMO. A dead horse in the face of fanatics and industry drums though, but for sure those new engines have some very good attributes.

cheers fnq

leezor
26-07-2007, 07:19 PM
would never go back to a 2s after owning a few 4strokes
the 4s are getting better n better some even has the same weight as the 2s and fuel figures are 20-40% better than some s2

as for baning 2s this wont happen by then

Daz

I'm with you Daz, will never go back! Could you imagine the looks we would get down the ramp if if we drained the oil from our sumps into the drink?? Thats basically what carbed 2 smokes do.

Lee

reidy_g
26-07-2007, 07:59 PM
I think we've already had the "pouring of the nasties into the water" line in this thread????? ;) ;) out of interest Lee...where do you drain your sump into?

leezor
26-07-2007, 08:09 PM
out of interest Lee...where do you drain your sump into?

Rather than dump it at the ramp, I usually wait until I get a bit further out to sea ;)
Naa, seriously I let the dealer deal with waste, and hope that with the surcharge I pay they dispose of it correctly.

whiteman
27-07-2007, 09:27 AM
This is a great thread to read. Still plenty of climate change skeptics on this forum. I don't know what it"ll take for them to see the bleedin' obvious. And yes I know this thread is not about climate change, the environment and fossil fuel limits but let's face it, take these issues out and the only reason to buy a 4s is less fuel consumed so cheaper bowser price and longer range per tank.

However, I have a 115 2s and it will be the last 2s I'll own, whether it's for the garden or the ocean. I purchased a 6hp 4s for my little tinny and I love it. I have a new 4s mower. The 2s whipper snipper is next to be changed followed by the 2s chainsaw. The 115 is due within 4 years and until then it gets regular tunes. See, I have a plan!

Flex
27-07-2007, 10:22 AM
I have a brand new 2 stroke 50hp yammy. I got the basic model not only cause it was cheaper. But mainly because there is far less that can go wrong with a basic 2 stroke when your 30km off shore in far north qld and no one else in sight for hundreds of miles:)

When a 2 strokes doesn't start usually its 1 of 2 things for 99% of engine problems. either a fuel problem or no spark..Thats it. With 4 strokes there are far more moving parts,belts,valves, etc that can go wrong when you dont want them to.. I know the chances are slim with regular maintanance. But I try and cut down on all risks as much as possible.

second factor is weight. If your towing a boat off-road you dont want all that added weight of a 4 stroke handing off the back of your transom.

But that said, If I was to buy a larger boat i wasn't going to tow up north with outboard above 50hp I'd probably get a 4 stroke. they are much nicer the larger in engine size you go.

cormorant
27-07-2007, 10:53 AM
2 stroke fuel spark and lastly compression. If you are serious about being safe offshore you should do very regular compression and spark plug checks as they will show your first sign of possible motor problems. A sensitive temp sender unit on the head and at the exhaust port are the other options that will give you a inkling of whether one is about to let go or not let alone the basic knocking noise when bearings get a bit of play. Some guys in europe are actually working on a sound recognition device that can pick when your motor has a different noise outside what is normal and are working on selling as an accessory on remote critical use motors along witha sensor that constantly monitors oil quality in n4 strokes. This allows a decision to be made to switch over to a backup system , run the motor possibly into the ground or stop it and know you only have a small maintainance task rather than a rebuild.

I've been offshore in horrible conditions and was glad to have a old tech motor. I can tell ya I wasn't too worried about the environment that day except for the poo in my pants. It had blown a piston- we knew it was sick by the smoke and noise. A new smarty pants sensor would have shut it down before further damage. We had to use a motor to stay safe and slowly make our way in. We ran it at revs that created the least rattle - still a terrifying clatter- yes we were doing damage and we knew it but we were able to weigh this up against not having a motor and ending up beam on to seas and drift furter offshore. We did this even though we made contact with another vessel who stood by and could have put a tow line but rather than possibly put them in danger in those seas we putted in.

All the sensors on larger 2 and $ strokes ( that dollars sign is on the 4 button of your keyboard for a reason) are both beneficial when all is working ok but a nightmare when they go haywire or malfunction let alone me mentioning consumables like belts etc.

Gary Fooks
27-07-2007, 12:32 PM
Billfisher: I agree - but lets not hand the greenies another stick to use to hit us.
What % high emissions engines? And the last data I have is 2005 - then it was 63 %. The informed hints are that it was slightly higher in Qld and overall fell a bit in 2006.

Wahoo - you are wrong. How do you know it won’t happen by then? What data, govt report or meeting have you been to in Canberra that I missed? In other words why make statements without any facts?
Paddles - there have been lost of studies about outboards and emissions. Mostly on lakes of course and most in the USA - where the regulations stated. I do have one study based on Brown lake on Stradbroke.
The real push comes from NSW. The Sydney air basin exceeds the safe pollution level too often. They have done all they can with cars ( we had a new standard – Euro 3 started 1 Jan 2006) and so then they looked at other sources - especially those used more on weekends because thats when the problem was worse. They had to start now, because it takes many years for the new engines to eventually take over ... as the old ones wear out and are replaced.
Reidy - there is no way to split the emissions from one source or other after they hit the ocean. Of course not.
You keep asking me to prove that 3 Star engines pay for themselves in lower fuel costs. But I didn’t say that: I said they pay for themselves in many ways including fuel savings, higher resale value, less noise etc etc. You seem to ignore what I have actually said
I used to do the savings calculations for converting a car to LPG – but with boats there are more variables. On fuel savings alone – which is invalid because it only looks at one aspect - a 3 Star will pay for itself for a commercial operator (1000 hrs pa) but take forever for a recreational user.

Reidy - you have not answered my question that I now ask again. What would you say to me if I poured out 13 litres of used fuel oil and acid into the water from a drum where you went fishing?
That’s the real bottom line that you refuse to acknowledge
Acid rain? When exhausts from cars and outboards put out Oxides of Nitrogen, these chemicals mix with water ( the lake or a cloud in the sky) and a chemical reaction forms Nitric Acid. This changes the ph of lakes and or sol where the rain falls. Well documented and not emotional garbage at all.
BTW - if you think the industry is trying to make a buck then you are mistaken. Some companies don’t want regulation. And even those who sell only 3 Star Engines jumped at the Star rating scheme. The scheme is an alternate to regulation and maintains consumer choice. Every company agreed to do this almost instantly - and pay for it ( Government didn’t ) So there is no scam to get regulations
13.7kg? - All based on the USA EPA certification database. The data submitted by the manufacturers and audited. That number is comfortable solid IMHO
Yes I have left out many details - this is too small a venue. One report I refer to and have read is 87 pages. Another I am still looking at is over 700 pages. I am trying to summarize and simplify for you good folk, but if anyone thinks I am misleading you , then before you assume me then read the reports – then call my bluff on the facts.
I note that no one has asked for the reports so they can check the data themselves.

As complicated the topic is its damn simple. I cannot justify knowingly pouring out 7 kg of oil and fuel and acid every hour. So I bought a low emission 50 hp instead of a high polluting 75hp. My decision was financial too - but instead of saying stuff the environment I said - I can go a bit slower. And I also

Frankly - anyone who says “stuff you - I will pour out 20 times the emissions and I don’t care” is an embarrassment to our sport. And if 63% of anglers still say that then I don’t want to fight to stop closures.

I have been fighting so that we still have a choice of engines. And I can accept that in maybe 20 % of cases there may be a need for cheaper 2 strokes. But if people like some above refuse to look at the evidence and even to cosider to “do the right thing” then I am doing the wrong thing by preserving your right to choose.

Enough - thanks for the soap box

If you genuinely want information or data I am happy to provide.

Wahoo
27-07-2007, 01:22 PM
Gary, just had a read on my statement, i was more thinking on the DI 2s and not the carbi:-[
they wont ban them by then;D

and by the sounds of post #42 i might bump my shares up 100%;D;D;D

Juzo
27-07-2007, 03:43 PM
heres a "throw away line", think global, act local.....My choice of using a cleaner technology may not change the world, but does that mean I shouldn't bother, cause someone else is a much bigger polluter?

Obviously we are all free to make our choice, based on what matters (financial, enviro, ect). Personally I try not to make a mess of where I am, that means not leaving rubbish lying around when fishing on land, making sure any cigarette buts are discarded in my boat and not overboard, and when I can afford it (see...deciding factors again) buying a cleaner type outboard.

I see and respect all arguments of outboard choice based on price, but is that the only thing that matters. And if so of course you could not justify buying the more $$$ motor. Seems to me that this is a similar topic to the old "super" petrol v unleaded.
Can anyone answer this, if it were not for legislation would cars still be produced that use "super" petrol?
On reading the above posts it seems to me there will always be a place for the carby motor, most obvious to me seems the reliability/repair at see factor of use in remote locations.

And c'mon guys, leave the old "got a family to feed" line out, we are talking about boating here :) not the cheapest pastime around, and going on with the economic argument, do you work out what your cost per Kilo of fish is? cause I reckon mine would be some where around the $50-$100/kilo mark(always Dependant on the fishos skills of course :):) ), how could I justify that? much cheaper to go to the ol fish shop, but no-where near as fun.

Having said all that, my motor is a 60h carby affair, and 25 years old too, so I'm no saint, but when the chance comes to afford something better the clean techs will be getting a good look in.

Juzo

p.s. good thread guys, reading some real helpfull info here

reidy_g
27-07-2007, 03:53 PM
If you can’t split the emissions how can you possibly determine what benefit there is in banning 2 stroke carbureted engines? If hydrocarbons are causing environmental damage and 2 strokes are contributing 20% to that, fair enough, ban them. But what if it is 0.001% or less? What if the proportion is absorbed by the environment as FNQCairns suggested? If the proportion is extremely low and/or the benefit cannot be measured then it cannot be reasonably argued banning 2 stroke engines has any environmental benefit. If not an environmental benefit then who is benefiting? Is it a political statement, an excuse to profiteer or is it keeping “researchers” and associated scientists and lobbyists in a job and flushed with government funding? All at the expense of the average fisherman who it is claimed is being represented, but by the looks of this poll, they aren’t. If it can’t be determined what contribution 2 stroke engines make to environmental damage through hydrocarbon pollution then frankly the entire argument has no basis other than “dumping nasties in the water”. Beware any legislator who attempts this ban without reasonable evidence. The silent majority of 63% will be watching and voting.
As for how I would feel if 13.7 litres of nasties were dumped at my feet, as I said, colourful and emotive stuff. Let’s look at it realistically. It’s not all emitted in one spot is it? Again, sells newspapers though. Accepting 13.7 litres , or 0.0137 cubic metres of extra emissions her hour, traveling an average 22knots (40kph) with an average water depth of 5m and just 2m of beam, I’ve covered 400,000 cubic metres of ocean. My extra emission is approximately 0.000003425% of the water mass I’ve covered. Has a slightly different ring to it, doesn’t it? The answer is I’d feel just fine, except for the 4 stroke snobs turning their nose up at me “at the ramp”, and being painted as a sociopath by supposed lobbyists claiming to be working in my interests but instead assisting in banning my right to purchase a perfectly legal and beneficial product.
As for 4 strokes paying for themselves, please quantify in dollars the resale value and the cost of smoke and noise? As I said originally, if you choose a four stroke for these reasons good luck to you, but in cold hard cash terms 4 strokes DO NOT PAY FOR THEMSELVES.
As for the dealers, if 2 strokes weren’t used as a lure on BMT packages to make them look a lot cheaper, I’d be very surprised if a single dealer carried them. They are well-versed at up-selling once you’re hooked.
As for these magical reports, the reason I personally haven’t asked for them is because I put no faith in literature where the outcome was determined before work began. I work in an industry where that is commonplace, hence my skepticism. Furthermore, if they are based primarily on closed water environments they offer little relevance to this discussion. If they’re anything like the baseless, self-serving stuff offered here, I’ll give them a miss thanks.

Hopefully I’ve answered all questions. Hopefully now someone can answer my original questions: what proportion of environmental damage is directly attributed to the usage of 2 stroke outboards? What specifically is the damage? What is the evidence to support the claim? Has the evidence stood up to statistical validation?

Gary Fooks
27-07-2007, 04:19 PM
Wahoo - USA EPA 2009 standard, as proposed is the same as CARB 3 star. If it goes ahead, then the only DI 2 strokes to pass will be Optimax 90-115hp and all the ETEC range.

No HPDI, No TLDI. That is unless teh enginers make some major imporvements to these 2 star engines

Gary

Gary Fooks
27-07-2007, 04:23 PM
Reidy

you dilution arguement has legs but fails.

The only reason it fails is that the fedeal govt and at elast two states have allready won the battle on thsi topic of cause and reaction. Its over and that battle was lost in 2005 / early 2006.

Even after I shot huge holes in their data they came back and re - proved the point.

over and out

Gary

reidy_g
27-07-2007, 06:22 PM
If they "re-proved the point" then you should be able to answer my questions then????? Fairs fair. I answered yours.

reidy_g
27-07-2007, 06:28 PM
Juzo, $2500, $5000 or $5 is better in my pocket (or yours) than the dealer's. Of course the "feed the kids" line wasn't literal. A bit like "dumping oil at the ramp" or "4 strokes pay for themselves.";)

SO70
27-07-2007, 11:18 PM
until there is a total ban on 2 strokes for what ever reason i will continue to use and buy a 2 stroke and a carbed one at that.
i bought a brand new 200hp Mercury carburettor motor and disconnected the oil injection before it even had its first start up.
my reason for doing this is reliabilty.
when you are travelling up to 50-60 miles offshore, the last thing you want is engine problems because of an electrical component failing or oil injection failure.
it does and will happen at some stage so if you keep it simple, there is less risk of breaking down.
i'm not too concerned with fuel prices.
my way of thinking is if you own a boat you can afford to put fuel in it.
i have also worked, fixed and sold anything and everything to do with EFI on motor vehicles, and the amount of problems that occur with them definetly puts you off from buying an EFI outboard.
so yes i would buy a new carby 2 stroke tomorrow if i needed to.

ozscott
29-07-2007, 08:59 AM
I would never pull the Yammy oil injection - but then again the Yammy oil injection is pretty much bullet proof. Mine is 15 years old and has all original oil injection gear and doesnt miss a beat...and know others with similar stories. On the other hand I know a Merc Dealer who says several of the bigger mercs have issues with the oil injection, but that there 3 cyls oil injection setups are excellent.

Cheers

mangomick
30-07-2007, 01:12 PM
Just for the sake of less noise and no fumes I'd have to say no.
I wonder if the initial 5 grand saved today is lost when you take in resale down the track .

Ron173
31-07-2007, 11:46 AM
Just for the sake of less noise and no fumes I'd have to say no.
I wonder if the initial 5 grand saved today is lost when you take in resale down the track .

Possibly, ....

but I dont have plans to sell my next purchase, it will be a run it till the 'wheels' fall off then put em back on again.

Also building the argument for, ......

I have heard that now we are a few years down the track of the 4 stroke revolution, that there are now 4 strokes out there with high hours which are looking at increasingly higher maintenance bills, and if they 'pop' the rebuild cost can be expected to outstrip the worth of the motor.

This could leave you with a higher purchase price, higher ongoing maintenance, and if something lets go, an expensive rebuild which could equal a write off.

So even if it wasnt 5-6k extra, I'd still be considering my options carefully.

Ron

Noelm
01-08-2007, 02:40 PM
just because you pay an extra 5 grand when purchased does not mean you will get an extra 5 grand at trade in time, in fact you will loose more on the higher purchase price than on a similar lower priced item, it happens all the time in the car industry, you buy the big deluxe model and pay (say) 10 grand more over the povety pack, the minute you dive it away, you have lost 50% of your 10 grand.

Dicko
01-08-2007, 02:54 PM
Better resale of a 4 stroke is a phurphy from those who've never sold a second hand one.

A couple of years ago, I sold as 2 year old 4 stroke with 200hrs on it for about 55% to 60% of it's original retail price. This was a pretty fair transaction for both the buyer & seller.

A 2 stroke would be the same, percentage wise.

A really old or high hrs 4 stroke engine, should actually start being worth less on the secondhand market to a 2 stroke due to an impending high cost rebuild.

PADDLES
02-08-2007, 07:59 AM
i agree dicko, there's more and more people getting suss on second hand 4s and going for a new one instead. this in combination with people having more confidence in a second hand 2s is killing the resale value. there's been some good value second hand 2s motors for sale in the last 12 months.

FNQCairns
02-08-2007, 11:23 PM
And to throw a spanner in the works on newer tech engines, unless the useage/hour report is done by an independent ........I understand the FIX PRINT option (or equivalent for brand) is sometimes used to edit the hours/useage toward somewhere closer to dawn than dusk:(

heard it, cannot verify, makes sense though.

cheers fnq

blaze
11-08-2007, 11:04 PM
just catching up on this thread
any way
I have a new 18hp tohatsu 2 stroke carbi with about 10 hrs on it. This engine has a 3 star rating as stickered by the dealer, go figger.
cheers
blaze

the baker
03-09-2007, 06:12 PM
I would say yes under the 60-90 hp range I would be doing a hell of alot of research first and the use of the motor would get too would also dictate the outcome.

Dave.

snelly1971
03-09-2007, 11:22 PM
I first posted yes....but now i am leaning to no.....Just love the quietness of the Yammie 4s.....Never thought i would say it ....but i think i am converted...

Mick

KGW3
04-09-2007, 10:59 AM
A dirty 2 stroke for me.. Pretty simple design as long as the fuel is fresh and it is regularly serviced. and I know when it's running well , cos I can smell it...
mmmmmm love those fumes.

Chimo
04-09-2007, 05:18 PM
Hi Mick

How accurate was the advert for Trilogy? Reading some of their ads they seem to have some interesting stuff down there?

Cheers
Chimo

PS is it still Trilogy or is there a renaming ceremony that AFs from up here need to attend?

snelly1971
04-09-2007, 10:36 PM
Hi Mick

How accurate was the advert for Trilogy? Reading some of their ads they seem to have some interesting stuff down there?

Cheers
Chimo

PS is it still Trilogy or is there a renaming ceremony that AFs from up here need to attend?

Hi...Chimo...Yes there ads were quite true....except for the price...Haha..I got them down a fair bit...

I was going to rename the boat ~Roaring Forties~...due to the winds and our long and lat here...But I chickened out...why temp fate....i know you can rename a boat ...go through the whole ceremony ...bullcrap....but i will just leave her be...

Cheers Mick

snelly1971
04-09-2007, 10:39 PM
Ps...Chimo...The boat was part of a deceased estate....it first came up for sale 2 years ago....at ...119 K...I paid 50 K....

Mick

Sorry...I better get back to what this thread is about...

Stinky Smelly 2 strokes.....haha...Go the Yammie 4s

Mick

KGW3
05-09-2007, 02:26 PM
Saw a nice Yamahahaha 4 stroke being towed back through the GC Seaway last week by the Coast gurad. The owners face was a nice shade of crimson...
But they do make a very good Motorcycle I'm told...

SunnyCoastMark
05-09-2007, 06:51 PM
I bought a new 50hp Johnno 2 stroke last November. Budget was a factor.

The other big thing is every boat place I went into was only interested in bagging the competition and telling me how bad E-techs were or how expensive Honda 4 strkes were or ragging on Suzi four strokes etc. etc.

The only thing they didn't bag was the good ol two stroke. - So I thought - they must be OK;D and bought one - from Queensland Boating World at Maroochydore who looked after me right the way through.

I've been pretty happy so far.

Mark

KGW3
06-09-2007, 09:45 AM
SCMark

Gotta put in a plug for Barry at QBW.. He WAS the mechanic, but is now the owner. He is a very good OB mech with a positive , friendly and knowledgable outlook. Unlike the mob at Caloundra who sell Quintrex and Bayliners and wont look at you unless you have bought your overpriced boat from them.....
I have a new smelly Mariner ELPTO 2st and I took my boat all the way from Bribie to QBW to get serviced last time and next time too.

SunnyCoastMark
06-09-2007, 10:20 PM
Yeah, I dealt with Barry initially - top bloke and the with Scott who is now the Service manager and part owner as well. Saw Scott at the Boat show on Sunday - he looked pretty tired - had that vague kind of look you get after dealing with far too many enquiries.:P
Mark

Moonlighter
07-09-2007, 10:43 PM
I've had both types and now have upgraded to a Tohatsu 90hp TLDI (2 stroke direct injection) that I've had nearly 3 years.

It uses at least 35% less fuel than my previous 70hp Yammie, which was a pretty economical motor itself, and half the oil, is smoother and doesn't smoke at all. Servicing costs a bit higher because of EFI fuel filters and platinum tip plugs they use, but otherwise no issues.

I agree with lots of the posts here - over about 30hp, I would never even contemplate going back to a normal 2 stroke. The new tech DI 2 strokes and EFI 4 strokes are just so much better to live with, and down the track, will retain value better than 2 strokes.

Up to 30hp I'd maybe consider a 2 stroke, but unless there was a big difference in price I'd most likely go with a 4 stroke there as well.

Every one else I know who has changed from a 2 stroke to a new tech motor would not go back!

Grant

ptcruiser
02-10-2007, 04:42 PM
A dirty 2 stroke for me.. Pretty simple design as long as the fuel is fresh and it is regularly serviced. and I know when it's running well , cos I can smell it...
mmmmmm love those fumes.

I agree KGW, can't beat the smell of a 2 banger on a cold winters morn;D

Vitamin Sea
02-10-2007, 07:40 PM
I agree KGW, can't beat the smell of a 2 banger on a cold winters morn;D

Ageed, nothing like the smell of 2 stroke in the morning8-)

Pick the phrase

cheers

ozscott
03-10-2007, 01:00 PM
my dad reckons theres nothing like the sound of a 2 stroke going flat out...

falcon01
02-11-2007, 10:24 AM
Hi I would say under 50 hp still the best vlue for money and the economy difference under that size is not alot

Lutjanus johnii
09-11-2007, 06:55 AM
I'd buy one if a four stroke wasn't a option.

Synful
11-11-2007, 08:20 AM
I would.. I'm looking at getting a new 30hp 3cyl one..

Yeah, I got a 3Cyl 30HP on my new rig and couldn't be happier with it (I'll keep brand out of it as well).

When I was making the decision, I had people tell me that the 3 Cyl was quieter and smoother over the 2 Cyl which seems to be correct.

BrenMac
17-07-2008, 09:10 PM
Nup, if we're talking bigger motors (>50HP) I couldn't go back to a standard 2 stroke.

My first 1/2 dozen motors were carby 2s and had a pretty good run with them, then an early 50HP 4 stroke which was reliable, economical, but sluggish and a bit heavy, then a 115 Opti which was brilliant and now a 200 Verado which has everything I always wanted in an outboard.

I just find that the new tech motors are so much nicer to use in every way, it would be hard to go back.

Cheers
Brendan

For Steve
11-08-2008, 06:18 PM
I'd be happy with a 2 stroke carbie outboard up to about 90hp. Over that, I'd go 4 stroke.

Regards
Brad

Gary Fooks
13-08-2008, 08:06 AM
I waited to put in a response.

Lets think about the numbers

How would you fell about me filling a 5 litre pack with used oil and nitric acid. I put a small hole on the bottom and hang the whole thing over the side - emptying the oil and acid into the water over a 1 hour trip with my 3 star 50 hp outboard

What would you think of me?

Well a Carby 2 stroke 50hp puts out 6 litres more emissions per hour ( I can debate the data but is submitted by the companies to the USA EPA, who then audit it. – they test procedure is the international standard ICOMIA)


The fine details are irrelevant - its an unjustified amount of gunk in the water for no reason,

And the carbie two strokes cost more - 50% more petrol and much lower resale value ( 19.8% % depn vs25.0% - source grasses guide) Add together all teh costs and a carby 115hp costs over $1000 more over 3 years.


So – lets do a quiz. Which puts out more emissions (HC+NOx) A 6hp Yamaha 2 stroke or a 150hp Suzuki 4 stroke?

6 vs 150 ?
And guesses?

They are both the same 1.44 kg ph

A 15hp 2S has double the emissions of a 150hp 4 stroke or E-TEC. DOUBLE!


Laid out like this its blunt and pushy. But thems the facts. We have gone beyond throwing our garbage in the streets, throwing trash out the car window. We leave camp sites clean.

If you do all this, armed with the knowledge above you cant justify a 2 stroke carby.

For the Neanderthals – regulations are coming.

See www.oeda.com.au (http://www.oeda.com.au/)

Gary

Searaider 2
13-08-2008, 10:54 AM
Hi Gary ,
Very interisting & scary :o :o stats .
It shows that 4 strokes are the way to go in the future .

I'm currently running a 150 HPDI 2002 Yammie .
Although not as good as a 4 stroke , I believe ( maybe incorrectly ) that the directed motors are nearly as good as the 4 strokes ?

Do you have any stats that would compare it to a150 4 stroke & a standard 150 2 stroke ?

Thanks

Gary Fooks
13-08-2008, 01:27 PM
Hi Peter - nice to catch you on line

Yes - I didn’t believe the numbers when I first calculated them - but they have been checked by 3 experts.

Teh ETEC DI's are all 3 star (except teh 300hp) which meakes them as good as 4 strokes. All the other DI are 2 star.

As for your 150hp - measuring Just HC+ Nox in Kg / hour ( International standard testing procedures) , below are the kg per hour

Yamaha 4i 3star 1.21kg/hr

Suzuki 4i 3star 1.44kg/hr

Mercury - Optimax 2di 2 star 1.48kg/hr

Honda 4i 3star 1 .58kg/hr

Evinrude E-TEC 2di 3star 1.70kg/hr

Evin.E-TEC 150HO 2di 3star 1.70kg/hr

Mercury - Verado 4isc 2star 1.73kg/hr

Yamaha - HPDI 2di 2star 3.41 kg/hr

Mercury 2 1star 13.11kg/hr

Johnson 2c 1star 13.88kg/hr

Yamaha - pb 2c 1 star 14.54kg/hr




Gary

Searaider 2
13-08-2008, 02:13 PM
Geday again Gary ,
Thanks for the update on the stats .
mmmmmmm my Yammie is't as good as I thought :'( .
But at least she's still a heap better than a standard 2 Stroke .

Thanks

reidy_g
13-08-2008, 04:12 PM
I waited to put in a response.

Lets think about the numbers

How would you fell about me filling a 5 litre pack with used oil and nitric acid. I put a small hole on the bottom and hang the whole thing over the side - emptying the oil and acid into the water over a 1 hour trip with my 3 star 50 hp outboard

What would you think of me?

Well a Carby 2 stroke 50hp puts out 6 litres more emissions per hour ( I can debate the data but is submitted by the companies to the USA EPA, who then audit it. – they test procedure is the international standard ICOMIA)


The fine details are irrelevant - its an unjustified amount of gunk in the water for no reason,

And the carbie two strokes cost more - 50% more petrol and much lower resale value ( 19.8% % depn vs25.0% - source grasses guide) Add together all teh costs and a carby 115hp costs over $1000 more over 3 years.


So – lets do a quiz. Which puts out more emissions (HC+NOx) A 6hp Yamaha 2 stroke or a 150hp Suzuki 4 stroke?

6 vs 150 ?
And guesses?

They are both the same 1.44 kg ph

A 15hp 2S has double the emissions of a 150hp 4 stroke or E-TEC. DOUBLE!


Laid out like this its blunt and pushy. But thems the facts. We have gone beyond throwing our garbage in the streets, throwing trash out the car window. We leave camp sites clean.

If you do all this, armed with the knowledge above you cant justify a 2 stroke carby.

For the Neanderthals – regulations are coming.

See www.oeda.com.au (http://www.oeda.com.au/)

Gary

I cannot believe it took you nearly 13 months to come back with a response and all you've managed to do is rehash the same rot you were spreading the last time. Can you please come up with an original thought instead of ripping off propaganda from the EPA scarefactory and 4 stroke outboard manufacturers trying to justify a 25% markup???? Gary, as I said on this thread a year ago, the sums don't lie. 4 strokes = more services, more expensive services, 25% greater outlay. If you have a medium sized 2 stroke with average usage it would take decades to break even (refer to my post a year ago), even with a 6% difference in resale value, extra oil and fuel usage. You keep regurgitating these "scary" statistics but they are never put into perspective..... heavy industry along the Brisbane river woud spew more pollution into the bay in one minute than my 2 stroke in a dozen lifetimes. Like the rest of your enviro-nazi ilk you try to label anyone who doesn't accept the gospel according to Al Gore as "neanderthal". I am sick to death of people portraying me as some sort of vandal because I'm not an environmental puritan.

I will continue to enjoy my boating and fishing guilt-free until the pathetic cowards in George Street and Canberra bow to the environmental lobby regulate it out of existence. I'm sure you're still working on it for them.

You still haven't answered my questions from 13 months ago: what proportion of environmental damage is directly attributed to the usage of 2 stroke outboards? What specifically is the damage? What is the evidence to support the claim? Has the evidence stood up to statistical validation?

I look forward to your response in 13 months time.

http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/showthread.php?t=113189&page=4

PS. better a neanderthal than a sheep!

NormC
16-08-2008, 07:07 PM
Well I've just had my first read of this thread. The thread heading never attracted my attention before.

What a great thread. Even putting aside some of the more emotive resposes (not critisising them - this can be an emotive issue - they just cloud the thought process), there is some very interesting stuff here.

I currently run a 2007 model 20HP Yammy 2 stroke. A great motor, but dirty and zero stars. I'm looking at upgrading to a 25 or 30 HP and this thread has got me thinking with regards my choices.

Regardless of what we might think about what is fair, and whether we accept the arguments either way, the days of the dirty 2 stroke are numbered. Just one example:
http://www.lakelenthall.com.au/html/boating_rules.html

Lenthals new regulations only allow 2 and 3 star rated motors. Well, I can't go there with my current motor, can you? Is it fair? It hardly matters. It's the rules.

That's just one dam. You can be pretty sure others will follow. Some might ban all petrol motors (like Hinze), but I suspect many others will go the way of Lenthals.

Even for the rivers and ocean, it is clear that eventually there will be regulation - just a matter of time.

Now I already accept that standard 2 strokes are bad for the environment (despite being great, reliable and 'cheap'). Just like I accept that smoking is bad for health and leaded petrol for cars is bad for the environment and health. At least on outboards, I still have a choice. It's just a matter of how important this issue is to me personally. Do I wait for regulation to make my decision, or do I make an earlier (and more expensive - initially at least) decision myself?

For many, this is a decision for the future - when you look to buy your next motor. But for some, including me, it is a decision to be made soon.

When camping, we never leave rubbish in the bush. We take pride in leaving most places cleaner than we found them. We regularly curse those who have travelled before us and left rubbish, toilet paper and the like around. We never throw rubbish overboard when on the water. If we see a plastic bag in the water, we retreive it. We are not 'greenies', just average people who care about our world and want our kids and theirs to enjoy it as we do.

Not sure which way I'll go yet. A clean motor will require about $2,500 more than the alternative. But it has got me thinking.........................

Norm C

Benny69
17-08-2008, 10:14 AM
Well as much as I would like to have a new 4 stroke 15 for my boat, I, like a lot of others simply cant afford the outlay. Unfortunatly it comes down to being able to buy a new 2 stroke or may as well sell the boat as it wont be going far without the expensive 4 stroke that I cant afford. I find my old 2 stroke uses sweet FA fuel, so find it hard to believe that I would be seeing good savings here. Will my new 4 stroke produce petrol? It would have to if it was going to be as good as some will have you believe. If I was to buy a 50 hp upwards then it would be a 4 stroke. Under that and short a lottery win, it will be a 2 stroke.

Dean1
17-08-2008, 11:50 AM
Yeah for smaller motors up to say 40hp I wouldnt bother with a four stroke. The fuel saving wouldnt be worth it as you wouldnt be travelling long distances offshore with them. But as they get bigger its different. Im very happy with my new f 60's they are blowing the old 70 2 strokes away in every way. Mainly sounding for new ground, they arent sucking the juice in, stinkin off fumes and running rough like the old 2 bangers. Now its a case of ( are those motors running still i cant hear them?) 8-)

ozscott
08-10-2008, 12:34 PM
neanderthal - interesting. I dont like being called that just because I run a Yammy carbed 2 stroke. However if you want to come over and fit me up with a modern engine with low emmisions I would be happy to have it. Boating is expensive. I love boating, but frankly dont want to, nor can I, add another 10k-15k to an already expensive set up, just to lower my emmisions on the odd days that I can get out. A new motor purchase would be a different story but again in the big engines costs are still a big factor.

Cheers