Moral Dilemma

[bennykenny]

Hi fellow ausfishers, ive come across a bit of a moral dilemma at work. Now im a chef, and at this time i think i better not tell you where, but the other day the owner of the restaurant came to us and said he had been catching mud crabs and he had frozen them, now he was bringing them to us to keep in our freezers and soon he would come in with a group of friends and have them for dinner, now the first problem is that they are all UNDERSIZE:( by about 4cms and the second problem is that they are all JENNYS:( So now we have about 5 undersize female mudcrabs in our freezer and it been driving me crazy because it goes against everything i stand for.

So do i smile and nod and let the rich bastard get away with it or do i do something about it and risk losing my job:-[

[blaze]

not only a moral delema but the real possibity of a finacial one, I believe that you could report it without giving your personel info out. You could also tell someone else the inside info you have and have them pass it on. At the end of the day you need to take the action that lets you sleep at night. I believe there are some openings out there for good chefs, so maybe it comes down to your belief in how good you are at your chosen field of work.
Hope all pans out for you
cheers
blaze

[SunnyCoastMark]

Hey Benny,
Mate, I think you have to say something. How you say it depends on the relationship you have with your boss.

It may well be that he doesn't know or understand the regulations regarding crabs. In which case you can let him know where to find the appropropriate info. I would eespecially direct him to information regarding fines and or possible consequences.

Maybe let him know you had a "mate" who got fined and had his boat confiscated for having undersize jennies in his posession.

Alternatively, go and catch some legal muddies and give those to your boss - to show him the difference.

Like I say though - it all depends on your relationship with him - and only you know how far you can push him.

The key is being respectful and not sounding like a know it all smart arse.

Good Luck,
Mark

[ffejsmada]

Mate how important is your job??? There's plenty of work in the restuarant trade.

Me, I'd dob him in.

Contact authorities and try to get them to do an "off the cuff " visit.
That way he gets busted and you get to keep your job. Hopefully.

Too many times rich bastards think they can get away with whatever!
Paris Hilton's a good example of that.;D;D;D;D;D

Cheers and good luck

Jeff

[mod5]

Are you serious about wanting this post here. You have your photo as an avatar and your bosses best mate/brother/sister/cousin etc could be a member.

[Foxy4]

The crabs could have come from across the border where i understand it is legal for female crabs to be taken (not too sure on size)? Yeah Mod5 also has a very good point as well.
All the best in your choice on what to do.

[Dodgy_Back]

I'd Just have a chat with the boss and nicely remind him that they are all "Jennies"and undersize aswell.

There was no reason why you couldn't have told him straight away !

Mick

[B_E_N]

have q quiet word to him and tell him what the fines are and could be for keeping muddies that small, i doubt he would do it again

[el_carpo]

Good point mod 5! You may have already turned him in bennykenny.

As to what to do, it depends.......;)

If you like your boss, you can tactfully explain that he's in violation of the law and not report him.

If you hate your boss, you take some pictures of the crabs, and say to him, "Hey smelly, I thinks it's time you gave me a raise in pay don't you?" Blackmail city!;D

I'm kidding, of course.::)

[Tangles]

Hard position to be in really and the fact hes in the restaurant trade makes it worse ( if thats possible), the pure 100% conscience thing is to report him without question immediately but livelihoods including your co-workers come into play,,

I dont have anything to lose unlike you as its your livelihood so heres a possible suggestion to think through as nothing will save those illegal crabs right now and your interested in outcomes;


I would bring it up with him and try to educate him so he doesn't do it in future, youll soon see what sort of character he is. If he doesn't listen or fobs it off then in a way depends if you want to work for someone like that. That to me would help you decide on your next course of action'

What would the other staff think of it? Also news of that could concievably close down his restaurant with enough publicity, would diners go there ?( and your dealing with the lives/incomes of the other staff and their dependants as well)

If you fronted him about his illegal practice what response would you hope you'd get from him, a public apology to his staff for risking their jobs?. I sort of figure education is the key as no doubt hell do it in the future if not educated.

What do you gain from reporting him and the restaurant closes down and all staff lose their jobs? or would a humble apology to his staff and him stopping the practice of taking undersize jenny's work for you and you and your fellow staff/dependants ?

Mike

[finga]

Have a quite chat. If he sticks to his guns you'd have to ask the questions...
What else is he dodging the law about??
Is he worth working for??
Your right..a moral dilemma.
PS My freezer would have been full...no room at all :)

[bluefin59]

As mod 5 said its a shame you have given your self up already but at the end of the day if it goes against the grain get intouch with the appropriate people and if it turns out they find out its you i'm sure as a chef you would have no problems finding another job especially on the goldy mate best of luck with your discision mate if it's right for you do what has to be done ........

[bennykenny]

I'd Just have a chat with the boss and nicely remind him that they are all "Jennies"and undersize aswell.

There was no reason why you couldn't have told him straight away !

Mick
i wanst there at the time when he brought them in otherwise i would have said something,he doesnt work at the restaurant but only comes in once or twice a week.

[Owen]

Tough spot to be in.
Just make sure you document anything you do and/or say.
Also make sure you serve them in the shell.
You never know, one of his invited guests might be a DPI&F officer

[PinHead]

I think we would all like to say something to him or the authorities but I doubt we would..just shut up and go about your work.

[choppa]

its okay for those above to say ""yeh dob him in and get a better job,,, theres plenty about in the restaurant trade"",, buts its a decision that will effect you as well,,, uprooting your stakes,,, settling into the new role,,, a few weeks maybe without pay,,,, it all has to be taken into the equation

it comes down to your personal decision,,, and what makes you more comfortable,,

i'm sure if this was concerning a safety issue or a mistake in a pay cheque WE WOULD all be lining up at the owners door wanting to know how to fix it,,

not knowing how the boss acquired these crabs is the first thing,,, being undersized is the other,,, is it possible that your boss simply doesn't know

i ask this because even though your a chef,,, you haven't stated what the restaurant normally sells,,, could be that the boss is ignorant to the seafood laws

thats how i would approach him,,,, on a one on one conversation offering him some advice by telling him that these crabs are undersized and possibly illegal to sell or be caught with

if he ignores this,,,, then its your turn to toss the coin and see how far you want to persue it,,,

it'll be interesting to see if we learn the name of the restaurant

choppa

[aussiefool]

One thing every one has said is true,but if read the wording of the original post right you are the one in posession of the crabs, and not your boss so if the restaurant did get a visit then there is a good chanch that you would be the one who cops the fines as they are in the freezers that you have control over. I would be asking the boss to remove them but add that you would be willing to cook them on the night when he brings them in for his guests.
Aussiefool
Andrew

[banshee]

Understand that if they're in your freezer they are your crabs and your problem in the unlikely case that the authorities discover them.

edited out most of my response as I thought the crabs were at your house.

[Ausfish]

If you were going to do the right thing and ring the authorities you would have already done it.

[unka]

I agree with steve brown - if you had some sought of moral dilema with the whole thing you would have approached the guy and presented him with the facts as soon as it came to your attention or in my opinion if you are the kind of person who DOBS on people and can live with the fact that you are a DOBBER and DOB on people without approaching them first then you would have done it without needing the whole issue validated on a public website.

I dont like people keeping illegal seafood but i also dont like DOBBERS who DOB on people without first having checked out if they indeed know what they have done.

[ashh]

like many have allready said, he most probably doesnt know the rules and regs regarding muddys, so he probably thinks, cool, big muddys for dinner tonight.... again.
If he knew the rules do you think he would bring then into his workplace, his livlie hood/ source of income and knowingly jeapordise everything he has worked for?
If you are on ok terms with the boss, approach him with a pamphlet and point out the fines and what he stands to lose if caught in possesion of them....never know you may get a raise/promotion and become the bosses new best friend for helping him out.
On the other hand, if you dont get along with him so well put the pamphlets with the fines highlighted on his desk, in his windscreen wipers, at his place of residence or even better still, put it on the chair he will sit on when he goes to eat them. If he takes no action or disregards the pamphlets with a 'whocares' attitude, then you have a decision to make. my 2c

[disorderly]

If you dont like dobbing turf them out and let him know why you did this.(probably mean a confrontation though.It would be worth it just to see the look on his face ...... "you did what with my f!cking crabs!!")
Otherwise make the anonymus call to fisheries.
Either way you will probably be looking for a new job.
But who would want to work for someone who puts their employees in such a compromising position?.
If your happy to kiss arse and not stand by your own convictions,then do nothing and continue to collect a paycheck.

Scott

[Sea-Dog]

Or, you could take him on the "self-discovery tour".

Approach the boss and talk about the issue as if it involved an anonymous 3rd person. Or even easier (and probably a better legal position for yourself) would be to put it in writing and keep a copy. Sent his copy via registered mail.

I.E. Hey boss, I need your opinion on this. A bloke asked me to do something illegal for him and his mates. I don't know if he knows that what he asked me to do was illegal.

It does involve this restaurant, which could end up with fines for or worse, for both restaurant and myself, if it was discovered.

Should I just keep the peace and say nothing, or find out if he knows what he asked me to do is illegal.

See what his reaction is. Great if he reacts as if someone's trying to wreck his business.

Whatever his reaction, you must let him know that he is the bloke you are talking about, then explain the regulations. Also let him know that you won't cook the crabs for him, and to please remove them from your possession.

If he tries to force the issue - don't budge. Most employers like an employee with principles.

You are then in the power seat. He can't sack you for refusing illegal activity.

If he was to try - then you have your copy of the letter and the registered mail receipt as evidence.

[ellicat]

I agree with steve brown - if you had some sought of moral dilema with the whole thing you would have approached the guy and presented him with the facts as soon as it came to your attention or in my opinion if you are the kind of person who DOBS on people and can live with the fact that you are a DOBBER and DOB on people without approaching them first then you would have done it without needing the whole issue validated on a public website.

I dont like people keeping illegal seafood but i also dont like DOBBERS who DOB on people without first having checked out if they indeed know what they have done.


And "Dr" Patel would still be killing people in Bundaberg.
Maybe if the dobber had told him what he was doing was illegal he would have said "Oh yeah, sorry about that, I won't do it anymore":-X


BennyKenny, It's not your job to do the policing - that's up to the authorities. If you feel strongly about it dob on him. Otherwise let it go, worse things happen.

[unka]

And "Dr" Patel would still be killing people in Bundaberg.
Maybe if the dobber had told him what he was doing was illegal he would have said "Oh yeah, sorry about that, I won't do it anymore":-X


BennyKenny, It's not your job to do the policing - that's up to the authorities. If you feel strongly about it dob on him. Otherwise let it go, worse things happen.

ellicat i think that having some illegal crabs and the Dr Patel issue are on different levels of dobbing but well you might just be the kind of person that dobs people in for any ol reason _ its not a nice thing to be dobbed in for something you havent done or have done so out of ignorance.( like the old days " lets hang em by a rope over a tree)

[samson]

Talk to him if your concerned he might not know the law don't bother with the castapo they've got enough new boats.

[reel scream]

Just let him know the issue. I'm sure he will piss them off quick.

[Feral]

Tell him when you defrosted them they were off, and you chucked them out.

[Mod11]

There is no moral dilemma here.

When your boss leaves after placing said crabs in said freezer. Go to freezer, remove crabs and make them disappear.

When the boss returns for a feast of ' illegal ' crabs, tell him exactly what happened. All the time making him aware that you were only thinking about his restaurants reputation and possible fines. You were doing the right thing by him and his business.

If he sacks you, name him and the business here. Then take the story to Current Affair, DPI&F and Seafood Industry Association etc.

Chilli...........

[Jeremy87]

Is a dead crab worth your livelihood? I'd say the horse has bolted to make a moral stand now that the crabs are in your freezer. If he offers you more i'd politely explain to him thats his activities are illegal and you don't want to take part in it. From there its up to you wether you wish to report him.

[timddo]

You know it's legal to buy crab farms. You can buy them from the shops in Brisbane. Female crabs too. there is one rule to wild crabs and farm crabs. I once brought some from darwin shipped to brisbane.

Make sure you get your infor right b4 you get egg on your face. Goldcoast and NSW are pretty close. i think it's legal to catch gennies in NSW.

[Sea-Dog]

You know it's legal to buy crab farms. You can buy them from the shops in Brisbane. Female crabs too. there is one rule to wild crabs and farm crabs. I once brought some from darwin shipped to brisbane.

Make sure you get your infor right b4 you get egg on your face. Goldcoast and NSW are pretty close. i think it's legal to catch gennies in NSW.

From Number 1 post: ".....the other day the owner of the restaurant came to us and said he had been catching mud crabs......"

No mention of purchasing here.

[Lucky_Phill]

Further to that. The crab " illegality " is defined as ' In Possession ". Not whether they were from another state or where-ever. In Possession means in possession. simple. That's Queenslands rule.

And I read somewhere further up the posts " undersize jenny ". No such thing in Queensland. All Jennies are illegal.

This is just another reason the Crab Fishery needs an overhaul in Queensland. Add to that a Fishery that has standards between States.

I have to agree with some here. The moment you saw the crabs, THAT was the time to say something.

IMO.

Cheers Phill

[Dignity]

Bennykenny, you haven't stated what your relationship is with the owner, good terms or pretty offhanded. I know how hard it can be to approach somebody with such a problem and thought some of the suggestions a little unkind, not all of us are confrontationalists. Depending on your relationship you could suggest to the owner that he has compromised you by bringing in undersized Jennies (and I don't believe you can have any in your possesion whether farmed or brought from interstate). Guess you need to provide more info about the owner.

You could defrost the crabs and let them go off before refreezing them, then you can blame him for poor handling.

[fish2eat]

Is he chinese?? now while I don't want to stereotype him, they are usually the ones that because of cultural reasons, have no regard for fish stocks.

[minno]

I don't think your boss would put his head on the chopping board and risking all he has worked for and not knowing the law. You will find that his seafood comes from a source within the boundaries of the law.

But when it comes to risking your job, DON'T DO IT! There are other people that get paid to catch these law breakers for you.



minno

[FNQCairns]

Interested to know if they were in fact legal caught.

The govt has workplace and unemployment regulation so tightly bound up on the employers side I would completly understand if you did just let it slide.

You will be, in all likelyhood the one that looses out no-one else, consider also apart from being against the regulations - no actual real world harm is to be done if they did eat them, simply not measurable, sometimes I get a little confused at peoples ideals, now if he back-handed two children on a jetty to obtain them things would be different.

Keep your job if you like it, you will be saving nothing, doing nothing and making no difference in this instance if you decide to take all the risk.

cheers fnq

c

[tracing em]

Unfortunately the damage is done! I would start a conversation with them ( been crabbing?) Then gently make them aware of the laws and regulations and what position it could put the business in? I'm sure they will be remorseful? 7983 P.s show them a pic of a real Crab!

[Dirtysanchez]

It's a tough one, and hindsight is the perfect science in that anyone can sit on their moral high perch and tell you that you should have said something at the time, or worse, but no one is clear on whether you were there at the time, nor are they clear on your position and if you desperately need the job, as many do nowdays.

Maybe download from the DPI web the size limit info and leave it somwhere handy for his edification ? I am not going to comment on this too much because I feel for you, it is not worth losing / throwing your job in, but it is also unacceptable that they guy has compromised you, and worse that he is irresponsible with his fishing practices.

Perhaps if he did it again you could politely tell him about some of the things advised by others in previous responses, ie that it's illegal to take Jennys etc ?

Good luck mate

Russell

[hungry6]

In the past, I've found a quiet casual talk, doesn't matter where it is, at the ramp on a jetty or at the dinner table, achieves much better result then to take the moral high ground, especially in a situation where you're not sure if the other person have realised that they've broken the law.
The application of common sense is few and far in our community, and alot of the time it's the best way to resolve a sticking issue.

[Deiter]

Enough suggestions. BennyKenny, it is time for a little reply to let us know what you have decided/done and the outcome.

Everyone else, has anyone been to the Crown Plaza revolving restaraunt on the Gold coast? I went about 18 months ago and they had sand crabs on the table that were barely 100mm across. That was disgusting. Yes i reported them, but have no idea of the outcome.

Damo

[dogsbody]

Let it go this time but if it happens again then have a chat to him about it.
If this gets you nowhere then, well it's up to your own judgement it's not for me to decide for you, it's your livelyhood.


Dave.

[bushbeachboy]

Shut up and keep your job. And I mean say nothing at all about it. Don't try and tell him at all. If he takes offence you will lose your job (but for something entirely unrelated and some time in the future).

If you weren't in the restaurant when he brought them in, you can offer the prosecuting authorities exactly zip for evidence. What your mate told you he saw is not admissable in criminal court, he will have to go to court and give the evidence personally. Will he do that and risk losing his job? Not likely.

And there's no chance at all of you being prosecuted for being in possession of undersized crabs. They are not your crabs. Numerous people have access to the freezers even if you are in charge of them. You could easily deny seeing them at all.

So keep quiet or risk losing your job for a few dead crabs.

[the gecko]

Discuss it with him quietly.

As an employer myself, I can tell you that hes more likely to be worried about an unfair dismissal case than you think. I dont think hed sack you you, if you come across as raising it because you were concerned about HIM being fined.

I reckon officials will see the owner as the one in possession, not the employees.

If he doesnt do anything about it after being told, then I dont see the need for you to do anymore. Your conscience is clear, if youve told him.

Andrew

[NEWBY]

Gees dont envy your position mate. Like others have said, if ya boss in an ar$ehole, dob him in discretely. if you get caught and he fires you, have his ar$e for unfair dismissal as well. If he is a good bloke, pull him aside and tell him he is taking a massive risk and you thought you would warn him as someone has decided to dob him in. Then dob him an anyway and blame the person you hate most that you work with. Boss gets what he deserves and you get rid of any competition at work. Probably get a pay rise as well.lol

[disorderly]

. Then dob him an anyway and blame the person you hate most that you work with. Boss gets what he deserves and you get rid of any competition at work. Probably get a pay rise as well.lol[/quote by NEWBY]

Thats a classic,newbyhttp://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/grin.gif

You're a bloody geniushttp://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/cool.gif

[bennykenny]

hi guys thanks for all you responses, it has been very informative, i have made a desision as what to do , which will involve education, as im sure he has no idea as what the laws are, but my job is on the line , so ill have to give the authorities a miss this time,thanks all the same for your thoughts

[minno]

You have done the right thing. At least no s--t comes your way. You always look after your family or your self before the higher moral grounds. Like I said, let him be the shot duck, not you.



minno

[Geoff-]

I agree - a simple "you know, those crabs are undersize and you shouldn't be keeping that type anyway" said in a non-confrontational way will soon show you what he's made of.

He's either a decent bloke and just ignorant - and he'll go oh... shit... ok i'll know for next time. or he'll be a c&nt about it and start treating you poorly. piss in his soup and find another job if that happens :D