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View Full Version : WHAT WOULD YOU DO ( trailer theft)



russ81
07-05-2007, 01:46 AM
After hearing about OUT-STATIONS's" trailer theft I thought I would ask the question "What do you do if you return to find your trailer gone?"
Myself i have no idea apart from calling the police and the insurance company.

What do you do with your boat in the mean time?
I am very interested to find what people who have had this happen have done, also does anyone have a contingency plan if it unfortunately happens to them.

It is very unfortunate that we live in a world where we cant turn our back for one second without having our hard earned possessions stolen.

tigermullet
07-05-2007, 06:20 AM
I am hoping that this thread will come up with some solutions. My idea was to race home and borrow a friend's trailer - he had the same size boat- dump his boat on the grass, recover my boat, dump my boat on the lawn, return, put his boat back on his trailer and then sort out the mess.

That idea is now useless as he has gone to a much larger boat and I don't know anyone with an approximate sized boat.

From a story heard ten days ago, another boatie obviously had the same solution in mind. On returning to Jacobs Well and discovering his trailer missing he asked a couple of blokes on the shore to keep an eye on his boat while he went to borrow a trailer.

You guessed it... on arrival back at Jacobs Well with the borrowed trailer his boat was gone too.

I cannot vouch for the veracity of that story but can imagine such a thing happening.

boombah
07-05-2007, 07:11 AM
I was faced with the same situation in Sydney 10 years ago. Returned to the ramp at 3 in the morning to find my trailer missing. Luckily, I was driving tailgate trucks at the time so it was easy for me to shoot home and grab the truck and throw the 4m quinnie in the back. When I launched the boat there were some young guys fishing near the ramp and were obviously drunk, and have no doubt these guys were involved and rather than stealing the trailer they would have taken it and dumped it in the water for a laugh. As the water is 15metres deep off the shore with a strong tidal flow I didnt bother trying to salvage it and went out and got a 2nd hand trailer the very next week. In their hurry to get out of there they left 2 rods leaning up against the wall they had been fishing off....if only they weren't mugs and their gear might have been worth keeping....As far as trying to transport a larger unit ...short of hiring some sort of trailer...one of the various specialised transport companies would do it..ie flat top with a Hiab crane......rollers with a tilt tray...there are many ways it could be done..all of them costly and inconvenient especially on weekends....Hope things work out

Boombah

finga
07-05-2007, 07:51 AM
If it was a bigger boat I'd go to one of the marinas and get a temporary birth until I sorted the mess out.
If it was a tinny then get a few blokes and lift onto a car trailer or the such or I'd ask VMR/coastguard if I could dump it in their yard for a day or two for a fee.

Roughasguts
07-05-2007, 08:44 AM
I put a pad lock in place of the shackle, on my safety chain straight to the tow bar.

Then the square tube that holds the tow ball extension, the pin that holds that in place has a key locked pin. After that I could still put a lock on the trailers lift coupling. So thats at least two or 3 locks to get through.

But if she was gone cause every thing can be flogged.

I would hire a car trailer, closest servo that does hire, get about 4 pine logs as rollers,
Drive the trailer in the drink and winch her on with the logs bearing the weight.

Couple of tyres would be nice as well.
Couple of ropes off the rear tie downs a strap over the normal spot and she should be right to take home.

Than send a trailer back that's gonna rust out unless gal.

Hamish73
07-05-2007, 08:51 AM
I'm sure the water police or vmr would let you tie up overnight to their pontoon. Go and buy a trailer the next day. Will all this talk of theft, when we get our next boat I might look at joining MBTBC. I know it doesnt guarentee it not being stolen, but it would sure reduce the risk, not to mention you could keep your boat there until you sorted a solution.

SunnyCoastMark
07-05-2007, 09:32 AM
I put a pad lock in place of the shackle, on my safety chain straight to the tow bar.

Then the square tube that holds the tow ball extension, the pin that holds that in place has a key locked pin. After that I could still put a lock on the trailers lift coupling. So thats at least two or 3 locks to get through.

But if she was gone cause every thing can be flogged.

I would hire a car trailer, closest servo that does hire, get about 4 pine logs as rollers,
Drive the trailer in the drink and winch her on with the logs bearing the weight.

Couple of tyres would be nice as well.
Couple of ropes off the rear tie downs a strap over the normal spot and she should be right to take home.

Than send a trailer back that's gonna rust out unless gal.

RoughasGuts,
Your name appears appropriate.
So let me get this straight - after having your trailer stolen - you would then hire someone else's trailer that is not made for saltwater immersion and ruin it by dunking it in the aforementioned saltwater?

The capacity for human beings to extend their misery on to others never ceases to amaze me.

Bad idea roughie.

My suggestion would be to go and knock on a few doors of those lovely canal homes - explain your plight and you are bound to find someone who will let you tie up to their pontoon for a few days until you sorted something out. Who knows - you might even make a friend?

If you are near a coastguard base - they may even let you tie up there for a day or two as well.

Mark

Roughasguts
07-05-2007, 09:42 AM
Hi sunny coast Mark, A trailer is a trailer, your boat trailer is not neccesarilly designed to run in salt water either.

Same wheel bearings, same springs still made out of metal.
If it was a gal car trailer then it would be no differant to your boat trailer, most are made from Gal.

Of course you could still wash the trailer off with a gurnie.
And advice the owner and pay for a clean up choice is yours or who evers.

Hardly any boat ramps I use have homes any where near by.
So then what would you do.

SO yes i'm Rough, but my 30K boat will be home nice and safe.

juju
07-05-2007, 09:51 AM
First id panic......if it was at nite id sleep in the boat overnite...then in the morning send someone to buy a trailer id guess......might get worse , i always have the trailer padlocked onto the 4x4 soif it was gone....ergh.........not llike the way the old man used to pull the distrubitor cap off the XY falcon....that would stuff em....
Came into redcliff one nite and there was a guy at the ramp sitting in his boat, someone had taken both the tyres off his trailer.....i had a spare , but one wouldnt get him far.......would be a real problem that i hope i never have to face..

SunnyCoastMark
07-05-2007, 10:01 AM
Roughas,
Yeah/NO. Of course Boat trailers are designed for Saltwater - that's a no brainer.
I work as a manager for a Trailer company that manufactures/sells/distributes trailers all over Queensland and Nthn. NSW.
We also own a number of Hire Trailer companies and have probably 5,000 trailers Australia Wide.

Let me tell you that Car Carriers are NOT made from Gal as standard. If you advised us what you were doing - You would not be hiring a trailer from us.

If you're boat is worth $30,000 - a car carrier would be a pretty risky way of retreiving it anway.

Better to hire a tilt tray tow truck with some tyres and logs (as you suggested.) The tray doesn't have to go in the water.

Might cost $300 - but your boat will be safe.

Mark

Roughasguts
07-05-2007, 10:29 AM
Hi Mark, Yep you may be right.
But if you find your trailer missing at 03:00 AM public holiday then your going to have a problem, getting a tow vehicle and so on.
Wife might need the car in the morning to take the kid to a doctors apointment, so many variables to take in to consideration.

Time, constrain'ts, personal funds, it all adds up to what you have to do.

Think I would have me boat on the trailer and the trailer washed off with in 30 minutes of loading it.

I bet you don't know half the stuff people do with hire trailers, over load, swap wheels, change light fittings, swap bent ramps for straight ones, as a hirer of anything you take these risks.

I bet the guy's that hire a 4WD expect it to go on the beach, and get a few scrapes under neath.

So how are boat trailers designed more for salt water ?
It's obvious i'm a no brainer.
They have keel rollers, wobble rollers, or skids, designed to cradle the boat.
But that's pretty much it, isn't it. (EDIT Oooops and maybe water proof lights).

I have had boat trailers that wern't Gal, standard Holden rims, and bearings.
40 years old and still resonable condition. Well that was 10 years ago the last time I seen it.

My current Mackay trailer will not last as long as that one, but maybe it wasn't designed for salt water.

Cheers.

bootyinblue
07-05-2007, 11:05 AM
Suprised no one has said Call your insurance company and flick the problem to them!

Thats what you pay them for, to sort out problems like this. Cause with all these improvised retrieval methods, and during them you, dropped, bent, scraped, crushed, smashed your boat, then the insurance company might run a finer tooth comb through it than they normally do.

Have dealt with a couple of these jobs, and both times the insurance company organised a flat bed with crane and lifted the boat out of the water and dropped it in the yard of the owner for safe keeping till things got sorted through and new trailers were purchased.

kingcook
07-05-2007, 11:12 AM
I guess guys, if it were my boat that was left without its trailer id do pretty much all i could do to get her home. I am from South Africa and I tell you, you are much better off here in anyones book, back in SA its unlikely even to tow your boat without a huge padlock on the hitch/coupling, never mind leave the trailer without a lock in the parking lot, if you don't lock the wheels and padlock the hitch you will most probably have your trailer nicked by the time you are off the water especially at night!

cheers

Roughasguts
07-05-2007, 11:56 AM
First id panic......if it was at nite id sleep in the boat overnite...then in the morning send someone to buy a trailer id guess......might get worse , i always have the trailer padlocked onto the 4x4 soif it was gone....ergh.........not llike the way the old man used to pull the distrubitor cap off the XY falcon....that would stuff em....
Came into redcliff one nite and there was a guy at the ramp sitting in his boat, someone had taken both the tyres off his trailer.....i had a spare , but one wouldnt get him far.......would be a real problem that i hope i never have to face..


Yeah the old stolen wheels may be more common, every one has a wheel brace in there car and a jack. Not all have tow bars.

Hows about the wire rope or chain to secure the wheel and lock on to the frame of the trailer. Or maybe those mag wheel lock nuts. How about a cheap set of scratched up wheel covers to hide your flash rims.

If you make the trailer a little bit to hard to flog they surely won't bother trying in the first place.

russ81
07-05-2007, 12:14 PM
I am currently lookig at investing in one of those wheel boots that coverboth the wheel nuts and prevent the wheels being turned this however is probably going to be an expensive exercise. but as everyone has said if they want it bad enough they r going to get it.
there has been some great ideas bought up and ii has helped open my eyes to what i would do in this situation
so thanks to all who have posted and keep those ideas rolling in
cheers
Russ

Kerry
07-05-2007, 01:34 PM
Prevention is always better the cure and yes it might be expensive to at least make things look as if it might be difficult to lift, towbar locks, rim locks, wheel clamps, reducinh the opportunity etc but in some parts of the country these items are almost essential and it's better than nothing.

All that gear might never even get put to the test but that's the chance one must take.

If they want something that bad then they might have to make a bit of noise to get it and might look for something a bit easier.

Also from an insurance viewpoint the owner has a requirement to at least ensure things are as secure as possible otherwise the insurer might only pay a % as they might deem the owner to be partly responsible?

Regards, Kerry.

Spaniard_King
07-05-2007, 02:25 PM
I learned the Hard way.

Came back in one night to find my towball was a little on the light side :(

Rang a mate who at the time had the same boat as me (sea Farer V-sea) he dropped his in the water and pulled mine out.. we took it home and dumped it on a couple of rolled up sleeping bags.. then went back and pulled his boat out as my decky was minding it.

The biggest problem was the insurance company would not pay out until I had the pilice report which they would not release until after it was gone for 30day then it took another 14 days to get my money to buy another trailer... boat sat on fron lawn for over 6 weeks... painfull I tell ya

Garry

Spaniard_King
07-05-2007, 02:26 PM
No they gotta take all or nuthin...:P

Garry

nclemo
07-05-2007, 02:43 PM
l''ve got a solution
all you need is sunnycoastmarks number

ha ha

nclemo

nclemo
07-05-2007, 02:43 PM
l''ve got a solution
all you need is sunnycoastmarks number

ha ha

nclemo

bootyinblue
07-05-2007, 04:30 PM
'WITHOUT PREJUDICE'

Boaters with insurance policies must take 'reasonable precuations' against theft of, or from the trailer that is insured. Read your policy disclosure statement and if still in doubt, call your insurance comapany.

My policy states I must have a securing device from the trailer to the vehicle, ie padlock on the safety chain (dangerous and could be seen as negligent if involved in an accident) or hitch lock or similar. I have a hitch lock thing and locking pin on the towing harness and thats suffices. If they are going to steal your trailer or things from it then its going to happen, all you can do is make your less attractive to steal than the one parked beside you.

As far as insurance companies paying out a % only due to 'policy holder contribution', never heard of it. Insurance companies admit it was an act of no fault of the policy holder and pay out, or find that there is fault of the policy holder which is in breah of the policy and dont pay out. Partial payments would be seen as an admittance of liabilty and therefore be difficult to then argue and support in a court room.

time out
07-05-2007, 05:29 PM
All though i worry about trailer theft. As long as my boat was not on it and my car is still there and in one piece i would be very relieved.

Another reason for padlocks. I was informed yesterday that some very sad people are sneaking around ramps in Bribie Island and unhitching trailers from cars. The trailers are still sitting on the towball though. As the unsuspecting owner reverses down the boat ramp, off comes the trailer.

Just a heads up for the fellow man, something else to keep an eye on hey.

Cheers.

Dignity
07-05-2007, 07:17 PM
First thought was the same as bootyinblue - call the insurance company. They geared up to organise things quickly they have all the contacts at least and they operate 24 hrs a day. Might take a while to pay out but at least if any damage is done while getting it back home it should be covered unlike trying to do it yourself.

I use 3 locks on my trailer, 1 that secures the towbar, 1 that secures the chain and 1 one that locks the hitch down.

There was thread recently about locks not meeting standards for securing the chain so I had the chain replaced with a longer length and the chain is now secured part way along it's length with a rated shackle to one side of the towbar and then the rest of the chain is secured with a padlock on the other side of the towbar - figure double indemnity there.

I went down the path of 3 locks as one day I noticed that some one had removed the towbar hitch pin while at the local supermarket. Figured it was someone who was doing it for a laugh.


sam

ozscott
07-05-2007, 07:27 PM
I have thought about htis before....its a turd of a problem. If I was at Rudy Mars I would ask the boys there to hire ramp trailer and drive it on and get them to stick it in a pen, or otherwise I would more it up at their pontoons with their consent and race off and buy a trailer after running it past the insurance co. If I was at Cleveland I would want to know who nicked it because its a locked facility at Redlands Boat Club!!!!!. But if I was next door like I was for years I would try to tie up at the VMR. If the weather was still good and I had enough fuel (perhaps hit up the VMR for some) I might take her accross to the Brisy river/Wynnum for a moring - again depends on the time of day/night too. I would be very reluctant to leave it wihtout an adult in it!!!

Roughasguts
07-05-2007, 08:00 PM
Get the wife to come with you down the ramp, then she can take the car and trailer home.

When your nearly done send her a message on your phone, she comes to pick you up.

ozscott
07-05-2007, 08:11 PM
no good for me mate - 60ks from the Sea!

russ81
07-05-2007, 08:13 PM
Same here the missus doesn' t drive

ozscott
07-05-2007, 08:14 PM
my misses wouldnt like the 8 foot wide trailer!!! I can see her wiping out gutters and guide posts!

Roughasguts
07-05-2007, 08:19 PM
Hmmmm, that's a problem too. So how do you get home when your P!!!!!ssed.
Be the same if you don't carry insurance on your rig, think there might be a few of those as well.

SunnyCoastMark
07-05-2007, 10:14 PM
Hey Guys,
The other option is to have a crappy looking trailer, or, park yours next to a new flash one

I have a nice 15" Quinnie C/C with a new Johnno 50hp - my trailer is a different story (funny that) The important stuff is all new:- axle,,,,,, Gal hubs, I change the bearings every 12 months. The trailer is Gal dipped with a lousy faded brush painted finish that makes it look as though it's worth $50.


..............Never had a problem......

I did have my winch handle stolen once though (two speed winch - removable handle) - Had to use a pair of pliers to winch the boat on.:-[
That was fun...

Mark

ozscott
07-05-2007, 10:46 PM
I make sure that I only get pissed at home these days Roughie...I dont let my love drive my 4.5 tonne rig!!

FNQCairns
07-05-2007, 11:10 PM
Has anyone had or heard of a trailer being stolen that didn't have lights fitted?

What about painting the rails and sides in contrasting fluro colours -cloud 9?:).

What about rigging up a very particular light plug extension that is not standard and taking the extension fishing for the day.

Where possible back the trailer up to a post etc and pull the hand brake, impossible to unhitch.

I am scared of this happening to me, just some things I though of to make the lift less appealing.

I bought a wheel clamp for the trailer but it is so damn difficult to put on!

These days when heading back before I look at the ramp, I try and spot the car and trailer:(

cheers fnq

fishingjew
07-05-2007, 11:59 PM
Getting one of these for my trailer to lock it on to the tow bar on the cruiser

http://www.padlock-protection.com/documents-to-print/pp-flyer-v1.pdf

russ81
08-05-2007, 12:14 AM
Looks like a top idea how much are they stinging you for one

fishingjew
08-05-2007, 12:22 AM
Looks like a top idea how much are they stinging you for one

$300.00 with lock or $268.80 without plus postage.

finga
08-05-2007, 06:04 AM
I back mine into something else that not going to move easy (no not the landcruiser or new Subaru. Just a tree or bollard or something :) ) so they'll have to lift the bugger over Wally the wagon to get it and the little one is coated in grease for two reasons. a) thieves don't like getting their hands dirty and b) the trailer looks like crap after a few dirt roads. :)
Any form of protection will possibly deter the buggers away from your trailer to the next one. Especially if it's an easier mark.
The real deterent would be to have some realistic sentence from our court systems so those thieves would think twice about stealing anything.
A slap on the wrist and/or 25hrs community service just isn't good enough. It takes us longer then that to do the paperwork for the insurance.

finga
08-05-2007, 06:05 AM
Looks like a top idea how much are they stinging you for one
How do they cut the chain to length??
You can get cordless angle grinders now for those that really want your trailer.

SgBFish
08-05-2007, 10:29 AM
The thieves make life hard for us, lets make it hard for them.
How do you catch a rat? You use a rat trap with some nice cheese.
I’d like to see the copper start setting up sting operations at ramps. Deliberately leaving a nice vehicle unlocked with flash trailer attached at night at prone ramps and wait. It would take long for the cheese to work.
Rats are smart. Once you catch a couple the others would be shy to try. Advertise in the local rags their successes and name the caught rats like they do drinkdrivers.

FNQCairns
08-05-2007, 10:36 AM
Sgbfish, now wouldnt that directly relate to a proactive force and where it is needed in crimal cases?

Although it would make a great change from the mop up crew we have now..but where would the revenue come from if they did their job the way society needs them to??

cheers fnq

SgBFish
08-05-2007, 10:56 AM
FNQ I realise our highly trained force are flat-out parked on the side of roads in FWD’s all day clocking up revenue which should be contracted out to private firms but that’s another story. What a waste of resource.

I always try to put myself in the other blokes shoes.

Imagine you’re the thief and the police have been do setups at boat ramps at night, you would be very reluctant to attempt it and go on to an easier target after a few have been caught.

bootyinblue
08-05-2007, 11:18 AM
FNQ I realise our highly trained force are flat-out parked on the side of roads in FWD’s all day clocking up revenue which should be contracted out to private firms but that’s another story. What a waste of resource.

'WITHOUT PREJUDICE'

SGB, mate you are 100% incorrect with that statement.

I assume you are talking about speed cameras in 4wd vehicles. These vehicles are owned by Queensland Transport, the camera is owned by Queensland Transport, the wages for the Cop sitting in the car is paid by Queensland Transport and the revenue raised by motorists speeding past the site goes to Queensland Transport.

SgBFish
08-05-2007, 11:32 AM
Bootyinblue.

Who paid to train the police officer in the car?
Isn’t there a better use of that resource than sitting in a car all day?
Unless of course the police have plenty of police workforce to spare.

Dirtysanchez
08-05-2007, 04:41 PM
OOPS, lets not get into a sh!t slinging match guys, on an otherwise very valid thread.
Let's instead, invent some method to improve securiity on boat trailers. How about a removable draw bar or something simple, that can be removed quickly and renders the trailer absolutely ineffective without it ?
If it doesn't have a wheel, or a draw bar then it can't be pinched easily so they move on.

Otherwise, buy a mongrel dog and chain it to it while you are out, but make sure you leave it some food and water or the RSPCA will be onto you ;D

Luc
08-05-2007, 06:31 PM
At the minimum, use a good trailer lock but don't forget a couple of weld spots on the coupling bolts, the towbar bolts etc...

Not much point having a trailer lock if all they need to do is unbolt the coupling or tongue.

Having said that, if some lowlife realy want's your trailer !!!!!!!!

Luc

Wayne_Red
08-05-2007, 09:03 PM
I had the wheels (and hubs) stolen of my trailer one night and they pinched the valves out of the car tyres.
Lucky i didn't live far from the ramp and i had a deckie with me.
I got home, found some valves and valve tool in the shed, woke the neighbour and asked if i could borrow his wheels and hubs off his box trailer and got home a few hours later than i planned.
Thieves idea of a joke i guess.
Regards wayne

haggis
08-05-2007, 09:05 PM
I have no Idea what i would do .
but does anyone ever look twice at a car towing a boat trailer away from
the water with no boat on board ?
I have a padalock through the safety chain but also have the D shackle in place & also fit one of those hitch locks . Hopefully I will never be in that position but who knows ?
cheers fae Haggis ......................

dogsbody
08-05-2007, 09:38 PM
My brother and i have the same boat so i would get him to ditch his on the grass and come and get mine. But if he's not available that all goes out the window. Touch wood.

Dave.

Reef_fisher
09-05-2007, 02:20 PM
Had the reverse problem, trailer was there but no car. Car was my brothers so a quick phone call to wifey and problem solved, turns out brother was having domestic with nutcase partner, car wasn't stolen, she just decided to give him a hard time, stuffed me up a bit too.

As previously mentioned, if they wan't it bad enough they will get it, but you can make it hard for them though, just pisses you off when you have to have a whole bunch of keys just for the trailer.

zulu
11-05-2007, 05:16 AM
About four years ago I picked up my new boat and proceeded to the boat ramp at Manly. Mate and I did an overnighter at Tangalooma wrecks, returned to find my new purchase gone! Gutted!!
Here I was a 6.15m boat no trailer, to say I was in shock is an understatement. Trailer had two locks on it one on the hitch the other on the safety chain, did not last long with a set of heavy duty Bolt cutters. While I was floundering around at the boat ramp wondering what to do, a number of fishos realizing my fate, showed genuine concern and went out of their way to trying to help with a solution [thanks fellas].
In the end I was fortune enough to get a dry berth at Manly[used one of those big forklifts to lift it up].
Then the real fun started, imagine tring to explain to the insurance company that you lost trailer after only having it 28 hours! The boat stayed on the hard stand for 7 weeks. The insurance came good in the end, new trailer cost over $4000, I had to put in about $600 [original trailer was 4 years old]. Insurance company also paid the rental for the time on the hard stand.
I now have a very exspensive trailer lock, always try to reverse the trailer into its park. I still don't sleep properly when doing overnighters.
Is fishing really worth it. My oath!!

Cheers Troy.

Dignity
11-05-2007, 07:05 PM
zulu, quess that means they gotta take your vehicle as well but at unsecured ramps would do the same. glad you had a reasonable outcome in the end.

sam

russ81
20-05-2007, 08:21 PM
Hows it going guys
I have started going to extremes with my trailer i back into they parking bay put a trailer coupling lock on padlock both safety chains
onto the car and run a chain through the coupling to the rear recovery eye and put a wheel boot onto the trailer may sound extreme i know but hopefully it is enough of a deterrent while im out on those overnighters
Russ

FNQCairns
20-05-2007, 08:40 PM
Backing the trailer in is a good idea I had not thought of, the more I think about it a trailer without lights has gotta be the best deterent there is.
What self respecting thief would bother, I was going to hard wire my lights to my home built trailer but now I think I will swing them from the boat somehow or make removable trailer lights that fit the trailer somehow but are quick release -anyone got any ideas how to do that in a workable way??

cheers fnq

Roughasguts
20-05-2007, 09:09 PM
Hi FNQ, don't know if you can't go past the light board for quick removable lights.
Stick a hinge in the middle to make it a bit more compact and some locating rods to fit in your rod holders and your in buisness.

rich158
24-05-2007, 02:55 PM
Hi Russ,

Thankfully I haven't been in that situation, yet. Boat is still in the project stage. A Mate's solution for trailer security is firstly to have insurance & secondly to have 2 decent wheel clamps (about $400 for the pair) attached to the trailer wheels. If they are that keen on your trailer, it'll go, but if there is a choice one that has solidly clamped wheels & is padlocked to a vehicle. Or, one that's not locked or clamped. the unlocked one goes everytime.

The clamps are a bit pricey but you can use them to secure boat & trailer at home as well as on the ramp/trailer park. Plus dear old insurance company can't up your excess 'cause you didn't try to secure it.

FNQCairns
24-05-2007, 04:20 PM
Thanks Gut's, missed your reply, if I try that then the lights will be around 6 foot above the ground, if it is legal I will look toward doing it but with lights seperate each side + the number plate (rolls eyes).

Just checked my VSB build sheets and 1.5m to the top of the lights is maximum but it has given me another idea that will work, thanks.

cheers fnq