Boat Restoration-Restored Cruisers

[BM]

I'm contemplating the concept of setting up a boat restoration business focusing mainly on cruisers in the say, 20ft-40ft region. Either as a bring your cruiser to us and we restore or buying cruisers, restoring and then onselling, or a combination of both.

I'm interested to know what the general concensus is in relation to buying fully restored older cruisers. They would essentially be like new but still an old hull.

Over to you folk...

[fishingrod]

The problem with "older crusiers" is that many can be many unknown brands and designs. So its hard to guesstimate a market value, regardless of condition.

Are you talking about targeting "production brands" or anything?

Ive seen boats re-appear for sale 1 - 4 years later with a totally different description, but a photo that matches 99% the previous time it was forsale. I had a collection of Trade-A-Boat magazines for while.

EG:
28' trawler style GRP cruiser with CAT 3208
$35K, then less than 4 years later it was forsale under $20K apparently in good running order.

22' Riveria Design Sports Cruiser with Mercruiser (looked like 2400 Mustang, Savage Ranger 24 and Signature crossed together with those slanted cabin windows pointy at one end)
$9K then seen it around $20K a couple of years later with no mention of a new power plant or refurb)

Custom 10m Alloy plate aft cabin cruiser. Twin Diesel Shafts.
Seen it for sale several times with all different prices varying by 100%.

Your no idiot, so i know that you will pay the correct money for the boat. But how much is the "new owner" prepared to fork out for it. With unknowns there is nothing to bench mark against.

Id say that you need to stick to the known production brands. Ones that will sell based on brand and model.

If i was buying a refurbished boat, id like to be able to see your workshop or other boats that are work in progress so I could verify the quality of your work. A progressive photo portfolio of work would be good. Especialy for new floors, underfloor tanks etc that are not accessable for the buyer to inspect once installed.

You always tell people to tread carefully buying a boat that appears too clean as it could be hiding something. Now its your turn to be the seller :)

[BM]

Yep, i agree with all of the above.

I shoudl have mentioned only well known production cruisers but I decided to deliberately leave any detail out to leave the forum open for all and sundry comments and thoughts.

Having spent 3 yrs retailing used boats I know precisely how hard it is to sell unknowns or "orphans" as we call them. I have in mind boats like the Savage 24ft and 26ft flybridges and cabin cruisers, Bertrams quite possibly, the bigger Cruisecrafts, maybe some shark cat type hulls also.

In terms of values there will always be a few for sale on boatpoint etc in various states of presentation to enable some manner of cross referencing values.

Unless the whole idea of a "restored boat" is mainly about the "did it myself" aspect.. If so, then the concept is not viable as a business.

Re the "boat too clean". Yes, always true but obviously different when a boat is sold as restored and all facets of that work can be pointed out as opposed to the situation where this squeaky clean boat thats newly painted (engine and hull) and the owner says he's had it 10 yrs and its never been painted..... :(

I'm biased to the idea so that makes it hard (which is why I float ideas and read the feedback) but to me it seems financially wise to buy a restored but older cruiser for say $60K for a 26 flybridge Savage versus $130K for a Caribbean 26 flybridge new. Obviously the new buyer is never going to buy old and maybe thats where it all falls over. I don't know....

Cheers

[rando]

The value proposition for you is going to be boats that have been "let go".
That usually means lots of hours and quite a few bucks to bring them back.
Then you have got to move them.
You can have a heap of non performing dough sitting there waiting for a buyer if you are not careful.
Most marinas have various marine engineers, boat fitters/builders/ detailers associated with them.
How do you envisage making your business different , I think you will find it is a competative market place.
I dont mean to say dont do it . Im just playing the devils advocate for you.
If you do go ahead , good luck. I hope you make a mint.
rando

[searay215ec]

I would never buy anything has been restored. I am a panelbeater by trade and i seen a few people buy restored cars and end up with other peoples bad workmanship. I am in no way saying that happens everywhere or all the time but thats just my own experience. I believe that there is some good people that do the job right and BM would not ask the question if it wasn't done right.

Just my two bobs worth.

[BM]

Rando, firstly I appreciate your err.. horned advocacy!!!

I am well versed with the usual marina environment and yes they have their share of trade services but they don't typically have a business dedicated to the complete restoration of a vessel. Particularly with yachts.... but not too disimilar with power boats...

Marina businesses are typically REACTIVE, they provide a service to an issue that presents itself. They typically rely on their income from the vessels in that marina and are often not pro-active in hunting down new work or extending their capabilities.

Fortunately for me (possibly, and possibly not) my experience crosses many areas including boat sales, marine mechanical repairs/servicing/rebuilds from small tinnies to large multi engine cruisers and restoration work including spray painting, fitting out, timber work, floor, stringer and transom repairs and trailer repair work.

Re the initial purchase aspect. I know how to buy well ;) Have spent a few yrs doing it. Supply of good stock could well be an issue but this concept forms part of a larger business concept comprising mainly a marine mechanical repair/servicing/rebuilding establishment for outboard, stern drive, conventional(shaft) drive and jet skis.

Searay, thanks also for your input. I'm keen to here from those who would partake and those who would not. And equally happy to hear form both sides and more explicitly, their particular reasons why or why not.

Thanks so far folks. :)

[blaze]

Hi BM
I wonder if one of the things you are up against is that if some is after new look etc they may well have the $ to buy new/near new and someone that wants an older looking (IMO a better looking hull- re classic) hull is possible wanting to do the rebuild themselves. I know in the circles I move in there is one guy that just loves to build them from scratch, this includes plugs. Then there is a few of us that love classic shapes and hull design (I think some hull design has gone backward in the last 15 years - exspecially in top deck design) and someone is always looking for a classic. Then there is a few that just go and buy new.
does all that mean any thing, probable not
cheers
blaze

[BM]

Well, I guess it shows there is a mixed bag out there Blaze..

I do believe the Classics have a place in yesterday, today and tomorrow and the ongoing future.

But its a matter of consumerism and popularity I guess. Sure its a passion of mine, but I won't pursue it unles its a passion of others.

Cheers

[blaze]

Hi Bm
maybe what I am trying to say is that people that want classics often veiw the task of rebuild/rebirth as much a part of the overall experience as that of owning and using such a vessel
cheers
blaze
ps
hope all goes well for you if you decide to make the move north.

[BM]

Yes!, and I indicated as such somewhere along the line. If this is indeed the over-riding motivation for restoring an older boat then I am out of the equation, pure and simple (in terms of profitable restoration that is).

Cheers

[fishingrod]

I do believe the Classics have a place in yesterday, today and tomorrow and the ongoing future

What about the outdated styling on boats from the late 70's - mid 80's. Or should i call it the classic styling :P

Do people still like the styling?

If you look at interior on a Mariner Pacer or 22 or a Cruise Craft Rover or Carribean 23 sedan, Savage Marlin etc .... they are all from a era of Woodgrain trim and their layout isnt as always very space efficient. Some had big ugly looking tall helm positions and varnished seat boxes, lots of louver doors, the spirit stove and sink in the cabin.

Perhaps todays market would expect a fridge and ice box in the cabin, then maybe one of those more modern fibreglass seat boxes with the sink/stove combo underneath. Unless you make these yourself they are very pricey to buy.

What about toilets ..... I admit that I havent kept myself up-to-date with the holding tank and allowable direct discharge areas, but would you need to retro fit holding tanks in boats for todays market?

Im pretty sure you can handle typical re-wiring jobs.

But can you do canopys and upholostery yourself?
Can you weld stainless ?
There could be min $500 (?) work on every boat that you would need to subcontract out.

On some boats I imagine that you might do a basic turn key re-furb and advertise a price. Leaving things like deckwash/shower, extra electronics, solar panels, shore power, extended binimi's etc to be quoted additional and fitted according to the new owners specifications.

Set up costs. Maybe a good tow vehicle and a big tri/tandem trailer so you are less reliant on (expensive) boat transport companies

In terms of stock, in NSW there is ex government SharkCats, Water Taxis and fire damaged and sunken boats.

I guess you would need to always keep your eyes open for bargains, even if you had other projects on the boil. You would need mates regionally to do a initial inspection on a rig? Before travelling yourself to do a final inspection ?

About 6 years ago one of the local National Parks boats sunk. Stuck under a wharf on a rising tide i heard. I think it was a 7.5m ProMarine heavily constructed plate alloy with lock up wheel house about 6 years old. Motors were twin ~200hp Optis only a few months old with very low hours. I spoke to the guy who bought it as a wreck for ~$15K. Apparently the motors started OK on the ear muffs. Im not sure how well they actually ran. Thats probably the type of project you may want. Any re-furb would have to be done at a standard to maintain the boat in survey as your buyer would probably be commercial.

I would never by a refurbished boat. Id rather buy a 1995 boat in original clean condition than a 1982 boat that had been restored. The sheer age of the hull scares me.

I can see potential in your idea, but can you make a entire business out of it is the question. Im only in my late 20s and so far have never even once considered my own business. So I really admire the small people that start up on their own and sustain the business.

cheers
Rod

[krazyfisher]

Well I would use this service as I know the boat I would get but I would want many many pics at all stages of the rebuild.

[newchum]

hi nic i guess there could be a market in the area of suppling expertise and labor for the tough jobs in refitting eg. transom mods,deck layout changes. the bottom line is, will i get value for money? & could i do it myself? best of luck if you go ahead.

[BM]

If you look at interior on a Mariner Pacer or 22 or a Cruise Craft Rover or Carribean 23 sedan, Savage Marlin etc .... they are all from a era of Woodgrain trim and their layout isnt as always very space efficient. Some had big ugly looking tall helm positions and varnished seat boxes, lots of louver doors, the spirit stove and sink in the cabin.

Some people still go for the timber look inside, in fact Whittley still produce their cruisers that way. Teak trimmings and lots of grey frontrunner. But the idea would be to do what the customer wanted or in the case of a stock boat I'd apply a different theme to each job. Or alternate between timber styling and modern styling.


Perhaps todays market would expect a fridge and ice box in the cabin, then maybe one of those more modern fibreglass seat boxes with the sink/stove combo underneath. Unless you make these yourself they are very pricey to buy.

What about toilets ..... I admit that I havent kept myself up-to-date with the holding tank and allowable direct discharge areas, but would you need to retro fit holding tanks in boats for todays market?

Yep, I love that combo setup under the seat. I don't have moulds for those.... yet. But there are more ways than 1 to do that. There are some really neat items produced today that can be retrofitted into a boat. For example these from BLA:

These are an awesome looking moulded side pocket arrangement with built in drinkholder etc. I'm planning to use these in the Bertram 20 project but I may have a depth issue to work around.


Im pretty sure you can handle typical re-wiring jobs.

Yep, no problem there.


But can you do canopys and upholostery yourself?
Can you weld stainless ?
There could be min $500 (?) work on every boat that you would need to subcontract out.

Subbing some stuff out is fine. I can only arc weld. Can do canopies and upholstery but I am slow so I prefer to let someone faster than me to do it.


On some boats I imagine that you might do a basic turn key re-furb and advertise a price. Leaving things like deckwash/shower, extra electronics, solar panels, shore power, extended binimi's etc to be quoted additional and fitted according to the new owners specifications.

I'd rather a boat that is done up as a stock boat has all the good gear fitted to it (within reason). For example the Savage 26 Flybridge pictured below I would envisage that being sent out with pressure hot and cold water, transom shower, toilet, galley, anchor winch, full covers etc etc So the buyer really has no equipment to add unless they wanted some specific item.


Set up costs. Maybe a good tow vehicle and a big tri/tandem trailer so you are less reliant on (expensive) boat transport companies.

Would depend on the boat. I woudl build a trailer to suit up to say 30 or so feet boats and could pick up local stuff, but interstate is better on a truck. By the time you look at the cost of going to get iti and tow it back yourself you can't do it much cheaper than a large trucking company can.


In terms of stock, in NSW there is ex government SharkCats, Water Taxis and fire damaged and sunken boats.

Yes, hadn't considered those options. The sunken stuff I'd probably steer clear of though. I would be hunting boats that have simply been let run down.


I guess you would need to always keep your eyes open for bargains, even if you had other projects on the boil. You would need mates regionally to do a initial inspection on a rig? Before travelling yourself to do a final inspection?

Yep, sure would have a keen eye open. Depending on the asking dollar I would (shock horror.....)buy sight unseen sometimes. Realistically, if th eprice is right and things like new floors or transoms are factored then it wouldn't matter.

I recently missed this Huntsman 23 Flybridge that was advertised on crap-bay. See this link:
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=010&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=200105289138&rd=1&rd=1

This Huntsman would have been a good pickup. Sure it needs quite a bit of work but it could really be turned into something special. The 4 on boatpoint at the moment range from 38K-55K.

Theres a good sharkcat flybridge on there also at present:

This 23 footer:
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=015&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=250111072488&rd=1&rd=1

Toss some pods on the back and 2 outboards (easier to sell with outboards). Could be restored quite well. But cats are hard to sell.

This Savage Lancer 26 sedan is a possible go-er but the dollars are too high at present.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=017&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=270110237547&rd=1&rd=1


I would never by a refurbished boat. Id rather buy a 1995 boat in original clean condition than a 1982 boat that had been restored. The sheer age of the hull scares me.

Fair call. Although thats the beauty of glass boats in my opinion. Pull it apart and replace whats cactus and you are good as gold again.


I can see potential in your idea, but can you make a entire business out of it is the question. Im only in my late 20s and so far have never even once considered my own business. So I really admire the small people that start up on their own and sustain the business.

That is the big question. But as part of another business its probably workable until it got legs of its own (possibly). Theres nothing glamerous about being in business... Just bloody hard work, sometimes being cashed to the hilt and other times having no money..

cheers

Krazyfisher, funny you should mention that. I did a 19ft Savage Surveyor about 2 yrs ago for a guy in Canberra. He never saw the boat in the flesh until it was restored (I had it in the yard for sale as a typical secondhand boat). The number of email discussions was enormous (and enjoyable, he was a funny bloke and we accused each other of being Tolstoy due to long winded emails, akin to the long winded epic "War and Peace") and pics were taken right throughout.

The boat has appeared in PowerBoat magazine twice now.

Newchum, the value for money part is up to the individual i guess. From my perspective I would prefer to pay say 60K for something like that Savage Lancer flybridge (pictured) with everything restored in a modern manner, with all the gear on it, new engines etc etc than paying $130k for a new Caribbean 26. But maybe if I had that sort of dough laying around I'd go for the expensive new boat.. Actually I wouldn't. I don't see the value in buying something brand new and then losing money the moment it leaves the showroom...

Used boats in excellent condition always command top dollar and get it. It would be interesting to see how 5 yrs down the track what sort of depreciation there was on something like that Savage 26 fully restored. It could possibly achieve the same price as when it gets restored. Thats not one of mine I might add. Its just a picture of a Savage 26 belonging to a bloke in QLD.

Phew..... that took a while..... I'll dig up some pics of the 19ft Savage Surveyor I did and post em too.

Cheers

[fishingrod]

Hi Nic
Thanks for taking the time to give such a comphrensive reply.

That Huntsman looks like its only got a long shaft? That pod could be close to the waterline and could get covered in slime if moored.

That SharkCat looks like a aftermarket flybridge. I cant say ive seen any early ones like that with a F/B before. Looks a fugly.

A Savage Lancer with legs? Maybe thats a MK1, ive never seen that before.

Thanks for the examples, its good to see the type of projects that your looking at. At least those current owners have already paid for most of the expensive jigsaw pieces, you just need to put it together.

I wonder if boat prices in QLD will be too low compared with what your used to in Victoria?
Re another post of yours and the Pride selling price. You would need a small balavlava in Sydney to sell it at that price. But i guess once you have got a buyer that has seen it and fallen in love with it, they want it no matter what.

Ill admit i may have paid $1K more than market value for my current Allison 189 (year 2000 model) I knew even before I made the offer that i should probably go a fraction less. But i had been looking at boats for one year (web and 4 different states while on driving holidays) and not even seen a single boat i wanted to make a offer on. If i offered him too low i might have missed out buying it. I would have been happier 1K less. 2K less would have been a good deal. Either way im very pleased with my purchase. Maybe im going off topic, sorry.

The opinions to your original question so far seem pretty mixed. So good luck.
Rod

[BM]

Rod, the Ocean Pro/Runner series of donks are all 25 inch (hence the ocean name).

Pod close to the bottom is excellent. Pod following shape of the bottom is perfect. Raised pods are a canti-lever problem.

Re the Pride/Caribbean Palomino (this one was plated a Caribbean but yes, they were made by both companies which were owned eventually by International anyway) I always check dealer pricing around the country on various boats as a way of gauging values in various states. Those dollars would have been achieved in QLD going by what I see from QLD dealers. However, they may be taking a small or large or no knock at all on their advertised prices. I don't know.

Thats why I am heading up there when I get this 34 Mustang finished to spend a couple of days on a fact finding mission and understanding how things tick in QLD and particularly in the Sunshine Coast area.

Iwant to knwo who is good for outboards, who is good for jetskis and who is good for stern drives. And then, who is good for all 3 of these.........

Cheers
Cheers

[BM]

Any other comments from others on restored cruisers? The why's and why nots? Those for and those against?

Cheers

[PinHead]

are these the type of boats you are looking at ?

[boatboy50]

Nick,

I read with interest your ideas.

I too have bought and sold many boats in my short life, and no doubt will have many more to come.

The only question I have at this point is your intended market.

In Qld (I'm on the Gold Coast), I don't think we have quite the same market you guys do down there. There is quite a bit of money in SE Qld, and most buyers are like the previous poster, who mentioned he'd rather buy a later (1995) production model boat for the same money as a just refurbished 1980's classic.

IMHO, it is the same with the later model Bayliners or Searays (everywhere), they would rather buy one of these for 60K than a refurbed savage or other. How much will the aforementioned Savage cost you? By the time you've fitted all the mentioned options (showers, pumps, holding tanks ect ect), and including your labour, I feel that style of boat will cost too much and price it out of being worthwhile.

Just my opinion, feel free to PM if you like, and i'd be interested to meet up when you visit the area for a chat.

This area is very touchy, and you really need to know what will work. As I said, there is heaps of money here and the marine market is a very good one, with the right idea.

Regards

Darren

[ozscott]

I purchased a 21 foot Seafarer Cabin Cruiser (half cab) a few years back. Excellent 115 94 Yammy and very structurally sound - late 70s. 21 degrees from stem to stern. I hooked into her my Hitachi polisher and cut her back and polished - great look. I then added trim tabs, a host of electronics and radios, anchor windlas and stainless bowsprit, bilge pumps, auto float and switch to suit, dual batteries and holders, extra rod holders, cleaned out alloy fuel tanks and re-plumbed them, ran all new HD wiring, worked over the steering to make it quite good for push/pull, new gel coat underneath where it was a bit thin in parts, carpeted, new ring pulls for the panels over the fuel tanks and the list goes on!

I got the boat at an excellent price with the trailer (very good multie roller made in 98)
. She is a great, reliable sea boat with huge bunks and plenty of storage. She has all the modern mod cons for a boat of its size and then some. I would not see much change from $90k or so for a new Seafarer with all the gear on a good trailer at a guess.

BUT....I have done all the work. I am not sure what the re-sale would be, but I have saved on the labour big time and have loved doing it. I know that each soldered joint is properly twisted and soldered. I know that each terminal on the new bus boards are tight. I know that each piece of wiring is of a higher amp rating that it need to be. I would immagine that if I where in business doing the same job and had overheads that I would not want a suasage less than $40k to make a modest profit from it - that said my boat would never sell for $40k even though I know she is rock solid - it does look it when you closely inspect the detail also.

Then there is the quesion of the motor....will it be reconditioned for the rigs you do and if so a proper job not just rings and a hone. For a good re-co you are talking big money. At the end I suspect that the price you would need to ask will put people off - you would really have to offer a geniune warranty to get people sniffing I reckon that some people woiuld be wary that the warranty is not backed by a large company.

There is also a question of technology in the hull shape. For example I had a 70s V16C and as good as it was a new variable deadrise hull is likely to be better. Many people wont want to go 'back' as they might perceive it and those who do, like me are prepared to buy cheap and then do it as they like it, and in their own time and budget. I would not buy my boat from a repairer with all the gear for the sort of dollars that you would need to sell it for, and to be frank I dont think many would, but this is just my 2 cents worth.

Cheers

[finga]

It's the same as someone buying a '61 EK Holden.
Some people would spend mega bucks on one and others would just go and buy a new Commodore
Find the right people and the ideas a goer.
Personally I'll have the two boats pictured above before a new boat.
But I've been told I'm just an old fashioned old fart. That might explain the HZ in the shed.

There may well be a market in SEQLD for classic boats. Trick is finding the right people.

[Chimo]

Darren
What are you doing on a chatsite today after yesterday?
We are a little worried about you!!

Cheers
Chimo

PS Hope that C is resting up and thats your excuse!

[ozscott]

you might well be right Finga, but its a big call...hope you do well mate if you open up

[boatboy50]

Hey Pete,

Hope you enjoyed the night. Sorry I couldn't catch up much, it was extremely hectic!

Had some car dramas yesterday before the big day.

In turn had to postpone the trip a day to take the XR back to Ford again tomorrow.

Turn up at 730, make some noise, leave by around 10 hopefully (if they have the part I need!)

I didn't fancy towing the boat six hours without brakes!

Regards

Darren

[BM]

Thanks for the replies guys.

[fishing111]

I see you have got a few threads going with differennt ideas in the hopper for a future business.The one i like is the seatow and the mobile mechanic one.I think these would be a good idea.I could use the services of a good mobile mechanic if you decide to take that path.BM if you dont mind me asking how long have you been a qualified marine mechanic.

[BM]

I dont hold a trade ticket Paul but I have been around boats from a young age and servicing, rebuilding and repairing them for 4 yrs now.

A good mate of mine who was the National Service Manager for Mercury (and he wasn't technically qualified either) was the one who encouraged me to get into the servicing and repairs.

I went through this "qualified" procedure on the fishnet forums about 3 yrs ago. People there have had over 3yrs of advice now and as such i have done much servicing and repair/rebuild work for fishnet members.

So yes whilst I don't possess a trade ticket (I may look at the RPL concept at some stage but I really don't care, it would only be to answer yes to a question such as yours) to me I consider my qualification lies int he happy customer base I have and the low instance of issues arising from my work.

Obvioulsy people are free to choose their repairer so those that choose me fine, those that don't fine also.

As an example, a customer of mine with a 34ft Mustang which I have been looking after for about the last 18 months has destroyed his engines essentially through lack of use and very stale fuel (used twice in 15 months). I am now repowering with 2 brand new 330hp 5.7 MerCruisers, fresh water cooled. The Bravo 1 legs need to be stripped to redo the seals and the gimbal bearing on the startboard transom plate needs replacing. Without doubt, more little things will crop up along the way. His is just under $20K for the whole job. He has 12 months warrnaty on my work and on the new engines.

Cheers