Regular running on muffs

[KGW3]

I have just found out that the regular 10 min start -up and running of a 2 stroke does as much harm than good to your motor.
My 50hp (2 year old) 2 stroke was sitting in the garage for 5 months, with no opportunity to really go out, as we are staying at an Anal gated community with a lot of old whinging farts with nothing to do..... Yeah you know I'm talking about yas.
So I tiptoe out every 3-4 weeks and start her up when no-one is around, also keep the fuel fresh and squeeze the bulb from time to time to keep the fuel lines and bowls full.
Sounds pretty good so far.... NOT...
Go to take her out at the ramp and she will not run, kept stopping and SMOKE... I didn't know what smoke was until Saturday. Nearly choked a couple of kids.
So with a lot of starts and manipulation of the choke button, I finally burned off the exess oil (Oil injected carbed) and after 20 minutes it ran like a raped ape.
Moral of the story... When you return from boating, do a 3 min flush, clean her down and PUT HER AWAY... til next time.
This was all caused by the 3 or 4 short runs that eventually filled to carbs and crankcase with excessive 2 stroke oil.

[Roughasguts]

Yep they do that mate, idling with no load on mufffs. Get your self a flush tank or flush bag, submerge the leg up past the water pump, that shuts the noise a fair bit from the motor then you can run her for 10 mins or so at 1800 Rpm or so.

Also after a few months of that, it doesn'thurt to get some carby clean, and spray the electrodes on your plugs, before you head for the ramp.
Good gear that for taking the carbon and oil of the spark plugs.

[SgBFish]

KGW3

Ladies and Gentlemen I have a dream.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: 'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all outboards shall be 4-strokes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_men_are_created_equal).'
"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be subjected to the smell of burnt 2-stroke oil but by the beautiful pur of a 4-stroke.
"I have a dream that one day on the pristine waters of Moreton bay all boaties will be able to sit down together in 4-stroke brotherhood."

(Modification of the a great man’s speech)

[FNQCairns]

Yes smokey and hard to start sometimes but it gladens the heart to know all that oil is sitting around where it should for the layup:) as engines cool they create condensate internally.

cheers fnq

[Roughasguts]

Yup I like to see me engine smoke on start up, and the oil level drop in the oil bottle when I get back.

I have dreams too, but there more like woman i n white bikinis, swimming towards my boat shedding there ............... and towing a carton of beer in a esky.

[STUIE63]

Rag I like your dream better.
Stuie

[KGW3]

lol SGB...:D

But what became of the great man...

Can't argue with you about the fact that none of this would have happened with a 4ST and I could maybe even start it up in the old folks home without a confrontation... However, I wanted a 2 stroke ..and even though it's a little stinker, that doesn't like sitting around, I know enough about 2 strokes to get them going well, having only carbs, reeds and a chioce of oil inject - or disconnect on my side.
I was told that you need a 60hp 4 stroke to keep up with a 50hp 2 stroke and I just couldn't justify the extra $$$.

[PADDLES]

oil is good, better than no oil. oil is even better in a little wading pool with the bikini ladies from roughie's dream.

don't listen to these rich people with their expensive 4 strokes kgw, stick with your little stinka.

[SgBFish]

lol SGB...:D

But what became of the great man...

Can't argue with you about the fact that none of this would have happened with a 4ST and I could maybe even start it up in the old folks home without a confrontation... However, I wanted a 2 stroke ..and even though it's a little stinker, that doesn't like sitting around, I know enough about 2 strokes to get them going well, having only carbs, reeds and a chioce of oil inject - or disconnect on my side.
I was told that you need a 60hp 4 stroke to keep up with a 50hp 2 stroke and I just couldn't justify the extra $$$.

KGW3.

Start her up anyway. Give the old farts something to complain about.:)

[seatime]

the flush bag or a cut off plastic drum is by far the preferred method of flushing out saltwater. for your particular situation with a 2st you need to use the OB more often, or possibly the Nth American winter storage procedure, and start all over next season. idling with muffs may not be having the desired effect you're after. after 5 months it might be best to replace fuel and oil?
I have a 4st for different reasons, though a 2st would suit as I'm out 3x/week.

[Kerry]

Yes oil is good thing in a 2 stroke when parked up and this is one reason why you don't rev the guts out on outboard when running on muffs apart from the fact that more revs than sense won't pump enough water anyway.

Even the 4S fans don't do any favours by reving the guts of an outboard!

Most probably run outboards for way too long on a hose anyway? 5-6 minutes and absolutely nothing above idle!

[smee]

Thanks fellas i enjoyed the disscusion very informative.

regards smee

[Mr__Bean]

........I squeeze the bulb from time to time to keep the fuel lines and bowls full.

I think this may be the majority cause of your trouble.

As the fuel dries out in your engine it will leave an oily residue and it will smoke a bit more on first start. A bit smokey on start but no big deal really.

But if you pump it full again and again over the lay-up period then you are really starting to build up the oil residue in the bowls as the fuel evaporates off and leaves the oil behind.

I don't attribute the problem to "earmuffing" at low idle, I think it is more the fuel pumping when not in use.

- Darren

[Roughasguts]

Hi Bean, wouldn't a 50HP 2 year old Merc, be oil injected straight to the crank case.

But if she was premix, good point that ought to do it.

[KGW3]

Yeah... I know.. Should've known better... with the bulb squeezing etc.. and will get out more. :-(

[Roughasguts]

Nothing wrong with bulb squeezing and keeping the gasketts in the carby and the fuel pump wet.
It helps prevent crud drying out and blocking needle and seat.
But worse blocking your main jet on one off the carbs, that's gunna hurt your pocket when she leans out and blows a hole in your piston.

Keep doing it I do, if I haven't used the boat in months I drain the fuel bowls in each of the carby's, and prime the bulb to flush any gunk out.

[BM]

Rag,

I haven't checked the parts lookup but it wont be crankcase injection. Merc use either an oil mixing or non mixing pump. So its either fuel and oil mixed inside the fuel pump, OR... oil pumped into the intake side of the fuel pump (into the fuel line).

Yammy's do crankcase injection.

Cheers

[Great White]

Yup I like to see me engine smoke on start up, and the oil level drop in the oil bottle when I get back.

I have dreams too, but there more like woman i n white bikinis, swimming towards my boat shedding there ............... and towing a carton of beer in a esky.

Sounds like a visit from TOL's breaker Girls ;D

[Roughasguts]

Rag,

I haven't checked the parts lookup but it wont be crankcase injection. Merc use either an oil mixing or non mixing pump. So its either fuel and oil mixed inside the fuel pump, OR... oil pumped into the intake side of the fuel pump (into the fuel line).

Yammy's do crankcase injection.

Cheers

Thanks for the update BM, me old 1995 Suzuki is crank injected with the oil.
Seems a pretty good oiler so far.

Mind you they have about 4 differant systems going with there VRO at around that time. Seemed pot luck as to which one you got.

[BM]

The only real Suzi system I am familiar with is essentially the same type oil pump as the Yammy's (not surprising given country of origin of both engines).

Suzi have consistently produced good engines over the years but they have had some metalurgy problems with the engine blocks and the gearcases and an on again-off again approach to dealing with Australia has done them no favours. Same goes for the spare parts backup. Nowhere near as good as BRP or Merc or Yammy.

Cheers

[Roughasguts]

Have to agree all my spare parts I ordered arrived 3 days later all made in Canada, by Siera.

Don't like the idea of me crank either, it's multi piece construction pressed together, nasty.

And some have twisted.

No corrosion yet thank fully, but with only a couple of hundred hours on her well flushed and washed, you would hope so.

[BM]

Yep... Genuine Suzi parts are 1-4 weeks to get hold of. I think even the new Suzis are still slow on the spare parts.......

BIG negative sales point in my book. Your on holidays and you need a part. Overnight delivery for your BRP or Yam or Merc etc and you are enjoying your hols again but whoops.... 2 weeks for your Suzi parts and holiday's over....

hmmmm....

[Marlin_Mike]

I love the smell of a 2 stroke i the air and bait on the fingers..............ya gotta love it :):):)

[KGW3]

Well this certianly started some good debate points. The motor is a basic Mariner ELTPO which is a Merc with a silver cover. I spent a few years on iboats.com where I picked up most of my OB do's and dont's for my old Blueband 50 and they are pretty cluey dudes, those Septics. Anyway.. The moral to the story is you really need to use your boat at least once a month and keep the fuel fresh and add a bit of stabiliser (Petrolpower is good) now and then. Otherwise, it's not worth owning one. The injection system is oil pump/tank fed to the carbs. The event (not really a problem) was caused by short 5 minute runs which most likely added too much oil to the bowls and oiled up the plugs. Thw solution is simply .. take it to the ramp and blow the oil out until it runs smoothly. (This is very hard to do where we are currently living as the noise/water/smoke makes people nervous.)

[ozscott]

I start my 94 115 yammy V4 2 stroke every month when im not using it. I normally use muffs, but just bought a Flushbag. I run it for 10 mins approx. The Yammy's dont smoke much. Very little smoke - they are 200:1 at idle, whereas even my 2000 model 60 merc was only 100:1 at idle - it smoked more on the muffs. The Yammys are indeed reed valve oil injected - its one VRO that you would be crazy to disconect. They go like the energerizer bunny.

I have never had a problem with doing this. I think that you cant beat keeping the seals and lines juiced up - drying out is a problem. You also tend to stir up the start of corrosion and flush crap out of the water galleys.

The only problem I have is that the fuel gets a bit old and after a couple of seasons of infrequent use combined with some old fuel from time to time (i try not to - if the fuel is a few months old I will mix Optimax with it to up the overall octane rating back up a little) she gets some crap in the float bowles that need cleaning out, otherwise you notice that bringing her back to idle after a good run she dies - but re-starts no probs. I get clean the bowles about every 15 months now and its good to go.

Love a 2 stroke.

[BM]

Important note:

Adding fresh high octane to old fuel will slightly increase the octane rating overall of the degraded fuel but it does not remove or counteract the harmful bi-products produced by the breaking down of the pertrol. Its these chemical oxides that are harmful to the engine (as well as low octane fuel). Mercury classify fuel as beginning to degrade within 14 days and too degraded to use after 2 months. Fuel of this age should be discarded (or pop it in your car or lawnmower).

While I'm at it is important to use a good quality 2 stroke oil in your 2 stroke outboard. Leave the service station stuff on the shelf and buy an outboard manufacturers oil only. Mercury claim their Quicksilver oil contains twice the additive package of any other brand. Regardless of that, Merc, Yammy, BRP etc oils are all very good.

TCW-3 is simply a benchmark specification. So as Sal used to say "Oils aint oils" and thats very true. Outboard brand oils meet and well and truly exceed the TCW3 spec.

If you put good oil and good fuel in you can expect peak and reliable performance. Put sh!t in, get sh!t out....

Cheers

[PinHead]

KGW3

Ladies and Gentlemen I have a dream.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: 'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all outboards shall be 4-strokes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_men_are_created_equal).'
"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be subjected to the smell of burnt 2-stroke oil but by the beautiful pur of a 4-stroke.
"I have a dream that one day on the pristine waters of Moreton bay all boaties will be able to sit down together in 4-stroke brotherhood."

(Modification of the a great man’s speech)

damn..if that is your dream methinks you need some other ideas for a dream.

[ozscott]

I agree mate that there is some acidic stuff left from the breakdown of the fuel over time - it becomes stale. I use Quicksilver (Merc) oil for their optimax - very expensive but very good from what I am told. Upping the octane will help to stop pinging however in old fuel. I doubt many people throw away fuel - its just too bloody expensive. I wouldnt put old fuel from my boat into my car either. I wouldnt put it into my Husky chainsaw for example because it runs at exremely high revs and similar considerations apply here, as to the outboard. I am not aware of commercial product that you can add to freshen fuel, and if anyone does please post it!!!

cHEERS

[Roughasguts]

Have to agree on the stale fuel stuff.

I stick a garden hose through the bottom bung, run that up to the outlet of the fuel water seperator, whack a clear 10 mm inside the hose and stick the clear end bit on the filter. It seals okay find me jerry can and stick me gob on the end of the hose and down she pours, nice and fast if the hose don't have to go over the transom first.

Whack the fuel in the Pajero, top the rest up with PULP seems okay.

Now hears a thought. We have all wondered about the merits of LPG in boats, heres a big plus for the stuff.

It's around 120 octane and it don't go stale as far as I know ever.

[BM]

Just a little more challenging to store onboard Rags.......

There is a company thats been doing it for a few years. The oil injection is the issue for older engines. Needs a Yammy type setup injected to the crankcase.

Modern DI engines would probably lend themselves quite easily to conversion.

Heres the company: http://www.lpgtechnologies.info/SERV05.HTM

Cheers

[trueblue]

I pump my fuel out every 4 weeks if I haven't used it, and chuck it in the old 4x4. No problems.

[KGW3]

Trueblue.
I think 4 weeks is a way too early. If you have a built in tank like most new boats, you can't syphon out 60-80 litres of fuel every month. PULP has a shelf life of about 3 months or more and if you add stabiliser to it, you will eliminate water and fuel bug (varnish) and retain most of the octane.
The secret is to keep your tank full to minimise air/moisture and add fresh fuel as you use it.

[Kerry]

....The secret is to keep your tank full to minimise air/moisture and add fresh fuel as you use it.

This is the new age. Water is controllable and fuel is not and besides all this humidity mosiure issue is a beat up, bit of a myth really. Very little water is due to keeping near empty tanks.

[Chimo]

Hi All

Can anyone comment on the impact of heat on fuel degradation?

If your boat is in a cool, out of the sun, location and the ss fuel tank is full, would you expect the rate of fuel breakdown to remain the same?

Also can anyone comment on the rate of degradation of fuel in closed containers, again in the shade, say in a fuel shed?

Apologies for the off topic questions but as we are storing boat motors I thought it was sort of loosely related.

Thanks

Chimo

[Roughasguts]

This is the new age. Water is controllable and fuel is not and besides all this humidity mosiure issue is a beat up, bit of a myth really. Very little water is due to keeping near empty tanks.

Geeez how wrong are you on this one Kerry.

Ever flown Aircraft for a living.

You get virtually no water from the water drain points from full fuel tanks.
But 1/2 a day with half full tanks and you easily get a cup full.

Thankfully you don't fly you would be dangerous. ;D

[trueblue]

Trueblue.
I think 4 weeks is a way too early. If you have a built in tank like most new boats, you can't syphon out 60-80 litres of fuel every month. PULP has a shelf life of about 3 months or more and if you add stabiliser to it, you will eliminate water and fuel bug (varnish) and retain most of the octane.
The secret is to keep your tank full to minimise air/moisture and add fresh fuel as you use it.

Why can't I - I do...... Its is worth mentioning that I don't keep my tank empty. I just pump it out and then replace it.

I don't add stabilizer to mine as I see that to be added unnecessary expense.

The reason I pump my fuel out is more from the fuel quality perspective. Lots of fuel batches I have had over the last year have been crap. You can easily tell by the WOT revs. Sometimes just the fuel can cause the WOT to drop by 200 rpm. If fuel quality is sometimes crap to begin with, why let it get older?

Its also very easy to for me to change it. I do it before fuelling up again, and just stick a suction hose down into the tank which is connected to an old 12 volt fuel pump from a 308 v8. Tik, tik, tik and it pumps into jerry cans. Very easy.

Mick

[Roughasguts]

Hi Chimo, if fuel is stored in 44 gallon drums, sealed not vented and shows no sign of distortion. Then you could expect a bit longer life from fuel.

My understanding is fuel ain't much differant from milk as a comparison, keep it cool un opened and it will last longer. But it still breaks down in time and once started degenerates quickly.

So a time factor more than anything.

[Kerry]

Geeez how wrong are you on this one Kerry.

Ever flown Aircraft for a living.

You get virtually no water from the water drain points from full fuel tanks.
But 1/2 a day with half full tanks and you easily get a cup full.

Thankfully you don't fly you would be dangerous. ;D

Will Helicopters do Guts ;D but thankfully some of us deal with facts and not hearsay and since we are talking boats we might leave unrelated comparisons where they truely belong.

You read the following Guts then come back and put forward a counter arguement to substantiate your claim with regards marine fuel tanks ::)

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/myth_of_condensation_in_fuel_tanks.htm

Regards, Kerry.

[Chimo]

Thanks RAG. In the boat, the tank its obviously not sealed like a 44 and there are vents so I don't expect it to "keep" as well as in a 44 but the "hayshed" ; neighbours term; that houses the boat is such that with a 3m plus clearance and good breeze the fuel / water in the boat does stay cool hence the question.

So if fuel in an unsealed container standing in the sun "goes off" in "x" weeks does fuel stored as I have described, perform as new for 2x or 8x or 20x?

Also is "Off" fuel more of an issue with fuel injected vs the older carbied motors be they 2s or 4 stroke?

I know fuel has been talked about previously but I don't recall specifics such as I'm asking being covered, just that it goes "off" over various estimates of time which all seem a little vague to me.

So
1 how long is "x"
2 Impact of old fuel on older carbie vs new injected motors?
3 Cool vented storage of fuel extends life how many times "x"

I guess we can't seal up our tanks as they are not suitable pressure vessels as are 44s Pitty really, maybe

4 we should use pressure vessels as fuel tanks and seal them between uses?

We could dump this into a new thread if you wish, up to you RAG?

Cheers
Chimo

[FNQCairns]

Chimo fuel left in a fuel tank with open breathers left in the sun or if hotter overall will degrade much faster. The fuel is made of fractions, some added and all of these individual parts has a vapor pressure they will escape at, the hotter the envirnoment the faster it evaporates, even in the cold certain critical chemicals needed to make the fuel 'whole' will start to disapear faster but still in the vapor pressure ratio (if that makes sense) but the tank will still show around the same on the guage.

Fuel stored sealed in heat will increase the speed of oxidation of it's different parts but will last a real long time relative to unsealed, full and cool even.

cheers fnq

[Chimo]

Thanks FNQ and what is "x" etc?

Cheers
Chimo

[Chimo]

Hi Kerry

The article didn't seem to include RH in its consideration of moisture ingress to fuel tanks. Not sure what the total impact of that may be?


RAG
With aircraft could not part of the issue be the extreme variations in temperature that the aircraft (and the fuel and fuel tanks) are exposed to at altitude? If so, as as Kerry's article indicates the moisture ingress in boats apart from leaks, will be there but significantly less due to the far smaller temp variations boats are exposed to vs aircraft?

Cheer
Chimo

PS Don't forget "X"

[FNQCairns]

Chimo that is the 64K question I have no idea that wouldn't be a guess:(

cheers fnq

[Roughasguts]

Hi Kerry yep I thought you would go to a service manual or another thread.
Yup theres theory, facts, and actual findings base on personal experiance.

Damn I done them all and found it true. Takes a long time and a lot of study but worse a hell of a lot of money to get a Senior com pilots license, with all the endorsments.

And the thing with fuel tanks is, it don't really matter wether it flies or not, it's the temperature change from day through night. It's all to do with wet bulb temp, dry bulb temp, saturated adiabatic lapse rate, and diurnal variation.

All that means is condensation will build up and if not drained will turn in to gallons, and it happens over night.

Think you will find if a marine fuel tank had a tap in the lowest bottom corner you will find water in it. Unfortunately they don't thats why the fuel pick up is higher than the bottom of a tank.
Then we over come the problem with a water fuel seperator, bit sad really all that rust and gunge lying in the bottom of tanks.

But I shall read the article, thanks for that.

[Roughasguts]

Hi Chimo, mate I couldn't tell you how long X would be.
Don't think anyone would actually know how long ago fuel was manufactured, waited in transit, and so on you get my drift before you even got the fuel.

Plus then it's mixed with older batch stuff at the Servo, the older ensigms in that will start the process of gegradation quicker. That's why drums are better.

An EFI , motor can handle older fuel a tad better, having knock sensors which retard the timing, so your motor don't ping as much. It's the pinging that makes a motor go bang or burn out a valve.

As far as aircraft starting off in the morning with full tanks and doing circuits and short Nav's all day I never noticed much water in the fuel. You check it before every flight. But leave it over night and not fill the tank then you easily get your cup full.

[Roughasguts]

Hi Kerry yeah read the article and hell he's right about one cubic metre of air holding only so much moisture.

But then he's wrong, cause that air fuel mix is contained in a box, therefore droplets form on the inside top part of the tank, then run down in to the fuel, creating room for more droplets to form and so on.

And as we all know fuel expands a fuel tank with a quick shake, lots of moist air out sucks in fairly dry air gets moist quickly creating droplets on the top of the fuel tank.

So once the droplets are formed not talking moist air here they drop to the bottom of the tank and remain there forever.

Fill the fuel tank full so no moist air is in the tank and the result is less condensation.

Okay so the clown that wrote the article is dangerous, my apologies.

But having said all that I fill me tank before I go out so I have fresh fuel for me motor. Rather have a bit of water in me water sepaerator than a blown engine.

[Kerry]

You have your opinion guts and others have their's!


....But having said all that I fill me tank before I go out so I have fresh fuel for me motor. Rather have a bit of water in me water sepaerator than a blown engine....

Well done! Now that has what's been said and pushed all along, water can be controlled, the fuel issue can not! Hence tanks these days fuel tanks should remain low/empty as any water (as miserable a little amount as it is, if any from condenstation) can be easily contolled with water separators/filters.

The fuel thse days is by far the much bigger problem!

[Roughasguts]

Geez Kerry, if that was the point you where making why didn't you say so.

Instead of quoting an idiot, that doesn't realise that moist air once fully saturated forms water droplets, on a spec of dust or most any surface and will continue to do so if conditions, temp and pressure are right, until it's raining.

[trueblue]

The fuel these days is by far the much bigger problem!

Absolutely. Thats why I change my fuel out and don't run any fuel that is older than 4 weeks in my old 2 stroke engine.

I got into the habit of changing out my fuel up in Townsville, when the boat was sitting in the sun. The fuel went off really fast up there just because of the heat.

Change it out regularly, and no hasseles at all due to fuel. Nothing goes to waste because the old 4x4 doesn't care much about the quality of the fuel.

Cheers

Mick

[Kerry]

This is the new age. Water is controllable and fuel is not and besides all this humidity mosiure issue is a beat up, bit of a myth really. Very little water is due to keeping near empty tanks.


Geez Kerry, if that was the point you where making why didn't you say so.

Instead of quoting an idiot, that doesn't realise that moist air once fully saturated forms water droplets, on a spec of dust or most any surface and will continue to do so if conditions, temp and pressure are right, until it's raining.

Have always said this guts, have never said anything else and quite frankly it's obvious you go off half cocked without actually reading the comments.

As for who the idiot is well that's obvious not up for debate following some of your comments!

Regards, kerry.

[Roughasguts]

Your a funny bloke Kerry, yes I am an Idiot but a learn't from my own experiance not to make the same mistake twice (or at least 3 times).

Unlike others who beleive every thing they read and don't have the ability to see it's floored right from the first sentance.

As for reading comments, I don't think you read a full thread before going off half cocked now does one. Hmmmmmm

But your alright by me, your good fun.

cheers

[KGW3]

From the BP Aust site...


Premium Unleaded fuel

Storage stability is governed by an oxidation stability test that shows the fuel has at least 6 months shelf life after purchase provided the fuel is stored in dry well sealed containers. If necessary, antioxidant additives are added to batches of fuel at the time of manufacture to ensure an adequate shelf life.

Can only go by what the Manufacturers tell me.. If they are lying, well we are all doomed..:(

[bootyinblue]

Thats is Kerry,

Never let the thread issue, much less the truth in the way of screwing up a thread.

You seem to have a canny knack of putting people offside and always insist of backing your point of view, even if its proved to be wrong.

Not pointing the finger at anyone here, but there seems to be a common denominator becoming evident.

And on the topic, the less air contained in the sealed vessel, the less water condesation can be formed from that trapped air. Fill tanks right to the top, seal them and store in cool conditions and you will find very little water in your separater.

[BM]

KGW3, I would go by the direction of your engine manufacturer. Not the fuel manufacturer.

[Kerry]

Thats is Kerry,

Never let the thread issue, much less the truth in the way of screwing up a thread.

You seem to have a canny knack of putting people offside and always insist of backing your point of view, even if its proved to be wrong.

Not pointing the finger at anyone here, but there seems to be a common denominator becoming evident.

And on the topic, the less air contained in the sealed vessel, the less water condesation can be formed from that trapped air. Fill tanks right to the top, seal them and store in cool conditions and you will find very little water in your separater.

Blue, You are living in the dark ages, fuel ain't fuel anymore but water is still water.

In any case maybe you might like to put forward countering argument (substantiated argument) that would disprove Pascoe's comments.

What you are saying is do this but you really have no idea why or the consequences of such actions. There no point making a statement Blue uless you can support the argument, back to you!

Regards, Kerry.

[bootyinblue]

Water.... What is water? Havent seen any of it in ages.

Kerry, the simple answer is water in contained in air and is measured as humidity. The less air, the less water that is contained in the air, and subsequently on applying heat, the less condensation that is produced, resulting in less water in yout tanks and/or separator.

Somehow Kerry, I think you are using a little too much air!!

[Chimo]

Hi Guys

Thanks for your input re "X" etc

I think my next boat will have pressure vessel fuel tanks, probably tube shape with one each side with a balance connection pipe with high pressure gate valves between the tanks to keep them separate if required.
They will also have small outlets at the bottom at the rear, with pressure gate valves and short delivery outlets to collect and dispose of any water (from whatever source )

The engine feed line (s) will also be sealable as will the vent lines and the filler (s).

If BP are right; and probably the other fuel companies may say the same; I'm sure the engine manufacturer will also be happy with the "new fuel system" too

I wonder what extra cost this lot would be for say 150lt a side?

Cheers
Chimo

[Roughasguts]

You know guy's if you can prove, where you bought your fuel, and that batch was the sole cause of the engine failure. Then that fuel company after much investigation will pay for all repairs.

To confirm that a few month ago I seen a small add in the local paper stating that a particular servo had the wrong fuel in the marked pump. And mentioned in particular outboard motors, and using the wrong fuel (ethanol mix) as this was the wrongly marked fuel. I thought that almost admirable to report to them, fill out a form, and they will cover the cost of repairs.

Chimo, one of the guy's here made up a vent breather using 2 reciever dryers from A/con parts supply T' junctions and non return valves. And a bit more piping than normal.
It did look workable, wonder where he's gone.

[Roughasguts]

Pascoe, Ah Kerry, He's not an authority on the subject of sublimation is he.

After research he found a cubic metre of air can only contain so much moisture.
Yes a cubic metre of air in suspension can only hold so much moisture.
But most of us already knew that.

Then it falls out or condensates, to form droplets on mirrors in your bathroom, the windscreen of your car or the inside of your fuel tank.

Your fuel tank is already wet and warm,, and will suck in any dry air and imeadiatley make it warm moist air.

Pacoes quick research on the subject is corect but, only the part about moisture in suspension. Once the moisture is a droplet and forming a puddle it is no longer in suspension in that cubic metre of air he is quoting............ now is it.

The guy's an idiot on this subject, and if you think he's right Kerry, then start a fan club. Or advice him of my quick findings with out research, and let him get back to all of us with, why he is using only 1/4 of the factors involved.

[KGW3]

It is a USA made motor. The only thing the manual says is regarding octane which should be US91RON minimum. I have asked the yanks many times, and some say 3 mths and some say 6ths and others say put some "Stabil" in it and keep it for your grand kids. Gut feel is usually right.

[PADDLES]

i've never had a problem with condensation or stale fuel in my boat. but i pulled some old fuel out of my boat and chucked it into my old nissan patrol a few months back and it hated it. i have stale fuel issues with my nissan because it's an lpg vehicle and you can get a filter full of fuel that heats up and doesn't get used and it goes stale. apparently fuel injected cars can have a problem with fuel heating up because it gets constantly pumped through the fuel rail which is hot from the engine and this acts as a heat exchanger which heats up the fuel in the tank. i wonder if the modern injected outboards suffer from this problem?

[Kerry]

It's obvious that the clan have some old age thinking and really the issue of water condenstation is well known but some obviously have trouble understanding (or wanting to understanf/acknowledge) that condenstation does not account for determental amounts of water. Water in fuel is totally controllable where as aged fuel is not.

These are the pertinent questions and if anybody really thinks the comments are not correct then please feel free to justify your reasons, why not!

1. Can aged/old/stale fuel damage and outboard? YES most definately
- How can this be prevented? Fueling up only before a trip, managing fuel better
- Not keeping fuel tanks full
- Ditching aged fuel if suspect or even thought to be suspect

2. Can water damage an engine? It can to some extent but can be managed very effectively with simple filter/separator systems.

3. Does condenstation account for detrimental amounts fo water? NO, nothing that a good filter systems won't handle.

4. Why do people these days keep full fuek tanks? Dunno? Probably they don't know any better :) or have heard too many myths once too often :)

5. Should all outboards have separate filter/separators? YES most definately.

6. Should the uncowl filter be relied upon as a water separator? NO Absolutely not.

7. Is a bit of water as much of a worry as a tank full of crap fuel, NO, not even of the slightest concern when compared to crap fuel.

Smart operators these days use good filters/separators, don't keep tanks full and fill up before a trip not after.

Regards, Kerry.

[blaze]

I think it is more of a problem up there Mick, got your fuel preheaters hooked up for the winter yet
cheers
blaze

[Roughasguts]

Hi guy's just a quick side note on the development of petrol as we knew it years ago.

The stuff Petrol, was developed way before the internal combustion engine was even thought of.

It came in small bottles and was used as a head lice treatment, (and a good one)but is became obvious it wasn't a good thing to splash around the head and face when your only light source was a candle.

Trivia I know.

[snelly1971]

Bloody cold and windy Blaze...WNW 31 knots 5.3 meters min...10.3 max....I am staying inside....

I suppose that is one good thing about living down here...we dont have problems with contaminated fuel....

Cheers Mick

[disorderly]

Dont worry Kerry.I'm not silly enough to argue with you.
But I do appreciate a good laugh when some try.

[Mr__Bean]

But where I see the proverbial dribble on the screen, it is the duty of someone to correct the information for people who are relying on this information to solve a problem.



Says who???? And who appointed yourself to this task????

Last time I looked it was a public forum open to all contributers...... people come and go and they take what they want from the discussions but I hardly see it as your role to stand over everything that Kerry adds to the boards.

For what it is worth, Kerry and I have differed on many an occasion, and I have grizzled about his apparant bickering at times, but I have also seen the volumes of contributions he has added and would appreciate if he was allowed to contribute like any other member on the site.

Whether you think it dribble or not, I think that is for us to decide, I don't recall asking for the service you feel compelled to provide.

- Darren.

P.S. Yes, yes, i know..... Now getting down off the soap box.

[bootyinblue]

Darren, Mate stay on your soap box as long as you like. As I have always said 'I may not agree with what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it'

Now, if you were a young salt, just cutting your teeth in this leisure activity, then you would want to be able to read all the posts on here and while not taking them as gospel could probably be expected to put some weight on them as to the truth. If people did not correct mis information on here then pretty much all the threads would be very boring indeed wouldnt they. I am sure that information you post on here, you believe to be 100% correct.... Am I right?

So I, along with other people will continue to correct and add to information on here in the hope and anticipation we all learn new things. If this information happens to be a post from Kerry, then so be it. The problem I believe lies in Kerry's response to people indicating his short comings as can be clearly seen in this and other threads. And it is evident that when Kerry has run out of 'factual' argument, he will just attack the person. Not very conjusive to good thread activity is it?

It will ultimately be Kerrys behaviour and approach to thread responses that will decide his acceptance and participation on this forum and others.

[Lewy]

Yamaha have a method of prolonged stowing of a motor in there operators manual, its down laodable from there site, just find a model with oil injection,
having two much oil in the system must be better than none (apart from fouling the plugs), I think they recomend a shot of WD40 or similar in each pot when you pack it away and then starting with premix first time back.

Regards

Lewy

[Roughasguts]

Hi lewy, better off with a shot of neat two stroke oil in the pots and turn over by hand a few times.

WD 40, and the like are almost all solvent good for cleaning but don't prevent or stop rust, the stuff breaks down and dries out in no time. where as the oil will stay there much longer.

Cheers.

[trueblue]

As above. Yammy recommends a small shot of 2 stroke oil into the pot while the spark plug is removed. Then turn the motor over slowly with the manual starter cord (plugs out). Then refit the plugs and put the boat away. Will smoke like a bugger first time started back up, but thats fine.


Yamaha have a method of prolonged stowing of a motor in there operators manual, its down laodable from there site, just find a model with oil injection,
having two much oil in the system must be better than none (apart from fouling the plugs), I think they recomend a shot of WD40 or similar in each pot when you pack it away and then starting with premix first time back.

Regards

Lewy