Repco catalogue welders

[FNQCairns]

Anyone seen the two welders advertised in their catalogue? one is weldmate Arc and Tig inverter welder, peak current 160amp, duty cycle 140amp at 15%.

and the other is the Weldmate 150amp portable mig welder Gas/Gassless.

Which would be best for welding aluminium up to 3 mm thick? I will never be welding industrial structural stuff just want something that I can muck around with at home making stuff for the boat with an OK result just like my little cigweld stick welder can do on steel but for aluminium this time.

the prices on these are $549 welder only for the first and $599 full kit for the mig.

Any advice welcome as I don't have a clue :-[

cheers fnq

[blaze]

Hi Nq
You cant weld alloy with a inverter tig, only stainless. 150 amp mig will struggle with 3mm alloy, my 180amp struggles
cheers
blaze

[dicko1980]

Hi FNQCairns,

I'm a Boilermaker and can honestly tell you it will be cheaper to pay a Fabrication Shop in the long term than buy your own welder. The first welder you mention is an Arc Stick and TIG inverter. At $549 I can tell you now that it will be a DC inverter which in layman terms mean that you will only be able to weld stainless and carbon steel with it. You will require a AC/DC High Frequency Inverter to be able to TIG weld ally. As for the wire feeder you may be able to run aluminium with it, but will never be a success, as it will not come with the proper gun. The time you buy a Nylon liner and the associated contact tips ect for the gun as well as opening an account for the Argon Gas Bottle hire, you will be behind the 8 ball to start with. I don't mean to put a damper on the idea or sound like a smart arse, but welding aluminium for the inexperienced will be a big learning curve, not to mention a waste of materials and consumables. I can however suggest that if you would still like to pursue with the idea of welding ally at home, your best course of action would be to enroll in a TAFE course, where the cost of your course will be far cheaper to use their materials and consumables till your bought up to speed. Then you will know if you can justify the cost of a welder. As for a matter of interest I haven't done hardly any of the welding on my last tinnie as it worked out cheaper to pay for the work by the time I sourced the gas and wire. I couldn't even hire a suitable machine here in Townsville to do the job as matter of fact.

Cheers and Best of Luck
dicko1980;D

[dogsbody]

I was gonna get someone to weld in the structural base for a full floor in my tinnie quote was $350 had a mate who worked in tools got me a 180amp gas/gasless mig for about $600. I used 2mm square tube and it turned out good,first time i welded anything, even made a rectangle bit in it for storage under. Used the welder plenty since so really for the extra i paid is well worth it.

You'll get a much cleaner weld with a tig but they cost more $$$$.


Dave.

[grey_inflatable]

hi all well im glad to see a welding question as late last year i did a stickwelding course at tafe and the next weekend i bought one for a 100 doll. since then ive made a work bench motor holder a bin raiser for the kitchen(im laisy). fixed a peap of shovels etc and dicko can i send u a few pics of some of my welds because i think im getting the slag in my weld ill try post a couple of pics of my chopper pushies iv also made man i love to weld dam pics wont work i think

[dicko1980]

hi all well im glad to see a welding question as late last year i did a stickwelding course at tafe and the next weekend i bought one for a 100 doll. since then ive made a work bench motor holder a bin raiser for the kitchen(im laisy). fixed a peap of shovels etc and dicko can i send u a few pics of some of my welds because i think im getting the slag in my weld ill try post a couple of pics of my chopper pushies iv also made man i love to weld dam pics wont work i think

"Hasn't the novelty of getting Burnt worn off yet"

LOL;D

[ozscott]

FNQ - I bought an Esseti inverter TIG with a lift arc tig kit in a case for $1000 about 2 years ago. I have used it as a very lightweight, high grunt (drives 3mm rods one after another with no break and will push, but not regularly 4.0mm) stick welder. I have not used the TIG function, but it would be useless for alloy. I have seen a TAFE teacher demonstrate for me that you can weld alloy with a DC TIG, but it takes an enormous amount of practice (I cant do it) and even then the weld is far less pretty (and likely to be less structural/dependable/consistent) than an AC/DC TIG Machine (at thousands of dollars more).

The inverter TIGS are good for stainless and mild steels.

Their forte however is lightweight and high grunt arc welders. They have a couple of very good benefits compared to a traditional AC arc welder - mine has a hot start function that gives about 50% more amps for a split second when striking the arc to assist to strike the arc and start the weld transfer; it has an anti-stick function that senses sticking and stops the current in time to allow you to pull away the electrode before its TOO stuck on the job; and it has a voltage reduction switch in case you have to weld in a dodgy area with moisture for example where the secondary voltage is then reduced to the point where it apparantly cannot then give you a big jolt if you become the best earth rather than the job.

I would thoroughly reccomend the DC inverter but not for alloy.

Hope that helps some.

Cheers

[shubeej]

hi fnqcairns ,dicko1980 is right on the mark however there is nothing better than giving it a go yourself, so can i make the following suggestions .If you don't have access to three phase power i would just forget the tigwelding ally ,so if you are going to look for a migwelder look around for one with the following minimum specs .250amp fan cooled preferably copper core 16 power settings 3 metre euro connection gun with teflon liner & use 0.9 ally wire also get a steel liner to use for steel welding .the biggest mistake that people make when buying a welder is they go to small to start with & are forever kicking themselves they should of gone bigger cause the small machines are very limited .
good luck shubeej

[FNQCairns]

Oh crap! thanks for the good and no nonsence advice from all, just add money and all will be sweet, if I go to Tafe and learn how to weld the darn stuff.

I should have bought a mild steel tinny :)

For some reason I keep getting the desperates to weld this material (because of the boat), might look into the Tafe coarse it may cure me forever.

Cheers and thanks again, will leave those welders at the shop.

fnq

[bigjimg]

Gidday
I just had the floor ribs welded into my tinnie for the sum of 150 bucks.At first i was gonna do it myself,borrowed Dogsbodies welder, bought the wire, was told that the welder would not get the result required then got works argon gas and hooked her up.I then proceeded to destroy aluminium with it and after much frustration found the yellow pages and called in the mobile welder.The point i am trying to make is i didn't destroy my boat for the sake of 150 bucks.SMC mobile welding speak to Shane.Thats for the Brissy humans.Jimbo

[FNQCairns]

Jimbo that's funny (the destroy aluminium bit) Got any photo's :) .

I am sure now your experience would have been mine also because up until I read read the catalogue and now the replies above I was going to hire this weekend, jump in boots and all (to try) and weld the ribs in my boat.

Darn black art I just don't understand it.

Glad it all worked out for you in the end.

cheers fnq

[ozscott]

you could always use a MIG to weld alloy - I dont know how thin they can weld though for alloy...they go nice and thin on mild so I assume youd be OK. If you get a mig though make sure its a gas mig - get some gas wire spooled in her and just put up with the bottle rent for the Argon mix.

Cheers

[Roughasguts]

How come you have to rent these gas bottles, Oxy, Acetalyne, Argon.
It's a pain in the arse. How come we can't buy them, like LPG, get them re-filled or swap them over.

I know how you feel FNQ, I like to weld, never get much practice at stick weld, better at Oxy, and wan't to get a mig, or tig, and was reading this thread with intrest. Oh well looks like I won't be getting one.

The thing that confuses me is all the contract welders at work have a mig or Tig and say there much better at welding mild steel than Arc, and even a cheapie is worth it compared to stick.

For that alone if true I still might consider getting one.

[dicko1980]

For the three most common welding processes, MIG, TIG, and Stick, they obviously all weld but some processes are more suited to some applications than others. Where I work in construction all pressure piping is welded by TIG and Stick. For Tank and Large Vessel where there is literally km's of welding, it is welded by Wire Feeders, MIG. For general onsite welding, Stick. General Heavy Fabrication in a workshop, is nearly exclusively welded my MIG's. Welding Machines are no different to boats, a 12' Barra Punt and a 21'Haines can still be fished out of in a creek or in a bay, but one is more suited to the specific task.

Hope that helps explain things a little better 'Roughasguts'

Cheers
Dicko1980

[Roughasguts]

Thank's dicko, yeah that helps.
dicko, is there a ball park figure in Amps for welding, 2 through to 8mm I seem to bugger up me welds in Gal, either imbedded slag, or burning through, Trying to weld 2mm thick 50mm square tube, and there pretty ugly.

I do grind and wire wheel the gal off but it don't make much differance.
I have the electronic helmet and good gloves, so I can see what i'm doing and not burning me self, so that ain't it.
Cause I have been welding for around 30 years you would think I would be better but Nup.

Any help would be great.
Sorry FNQ, for taking your thread a bit off track.

[ozscott]

Its a misconception that MIG is better than stick. Mig has its place and was designed for cut down time in long runs and continous welding situations because of the drum feed. Its pus to use gasless, so your up for a bottle to do it properly. It can do allow and smaller thickness steel than stick, but you cant beat stick for thick sections amp for amp.

As for the secret for the galv, I dont know. I was welding up some bracing the other day under the house Roughy - 3/4 inch thick rod. I used 3.0mm rods and used the highest amp setting for them and blasted away the galv nicely (too lazy to grind). Its really hard to say what the problem is without seeing a photo of the job and knowing the type of rod being used and also what gear you are using. One of the things that I learnt the hard way was storing rods properly (dry) and then cooking them for a couple of hours in the oven to regenerate them if they take on moisture - which they bloody do at a drop of a hat.

Cheers mate

[ozscott]

...galv can be a turd compared to bluesteel to weld

[Hamish73]

I fix welders for a job, have done for about 10 years, we do warranty work for all the big names.

The smallest MIG that I have seen good results with ally is a 220 Amp machine.
The other problem is wire feed. The ally wire is very soft and difficult to feed, even with teflon liners and oversized tips. Hence you try and use the largest diameter wire possible. Proffesionals use a 'push pull' system where there is another motor in the handpiece to pull the wire through. If you want to TIG ally, you will need a AC TIG. A new AC TIG will start at about 4K. Tig welding ally isnt exactly easy either, and will take plenty of practice.

BOC (rebadged Kemppi) have recently released a inverter MIG which is a handy little package. It would be the ultimate portable ally mig IMO, but wont give you much change from $2K

A Unimig 220 would be the cheapest option I would consider, at about $1200ish

[disorderly]

Hey Oscott,

As I live in one of the wettest places in the country(av annual rain-4000mm),Moist rods are a curse.

How do you "cook" them to dry them out?

Cheers Scott

[dicko1980]

Thank's dicko, yeah that helps.
dicko, is there a ball park figure in Amps for welding, 2 through to 8mm I seem to bugger up me welds in Gal, either imbedded slag, or burning through, Trying to weld 2mm thick 50mm square tube, and there pretty ugly.

I do grind and wire wheel the gal off but it don't make much differance.
I have the electronic helmet and good gloves, so I can see what i'm doing and not burning me self, so that ain't it.
Cause I have been welding for around 30 years you would think I would be better but Nup.

Any help would be great.
Sorry FNQ, for taking your thread a bit off track.

Depending on what sort of welder you are using at home, you will most likely struggle to weld 8mm carbon plate with the stick. You can weld it no worries with a DC inverter Stick, they're the little welders that look like toaster. If you have a an old Tranformer machine on wheels that is 10amp, then I doubt you will be able to get sufficient amperage for the electrode. As for electrodes, use 2.5mm's General Purpose, GP's, of a decent brand. You get what you pay for here. Your best selection of electrodes is to ring a BOC outlet and ask them for their advice, but I do know that they do have an electrode in their range which is suitable for Galvanised Steel. I can't remember the names for the GP's as I don't ever use these sorts of rods. At work we use Hydrogen Controlled rods that are a lot stronger. But unless you have a DC inverter or a decent welding machine you will not be able to run them. As for amperage around 75-85 for 2.5's to weld Gal. For 8mm carbon at least 120+ amps for a 3.2mm rod. To answer Disorderly's question about drying electrodes bake them in the oven for an hour at around 100C, no bullshit, just don't let the missus catch you. And I know this sounds stupid, but bake what you need, and if you do bake the whole box remove the electrodes from the paper box and plastic, as I have seen it over the last couple of years a few smoking ovens from complacent indivduals.

Cheers
Dicko1980

[Roughasguts]

Thank's dicko, was kind of thinking it may be me eqipment.
Could be slight moisture in the rods too, seem to take a long time to strike.
It ain't no invertor welder just seen the price of those, Ouch,
Guess I only use a welder 3 times a year so maybe I put up with it, pitty
really wanted to get a mig or tig, but don't want another cheapie welder.

[ozscott]

most good suppliers stick the baking time and degrees on the pack - WIA and BOC do it. WIA are great rods in my opinion.

As Dicko says dont let your missus catch you. It stinks so make sure shes out.

Cheers

[notsa]

Try grinding the gal off where the weld will be .

[dogsbody]

Gidday
I just had the floor ribs welded into my tinnie for the sum of 150 bucks.At first i was gonna do it myself,borrowed Dogsbodies welder, bought the wire, was told that the welder would not get the result required then got works argon gas and hooked her up.I then proceeded to destroy aluminium with it and after much frustration found the yellow pages and called in the mobile welder.The point i am trying to make is i didn't destroy my boat for the sake of 150 bucks.SMC mobile welding speak to Shane.Thats for the Brissy humans.Jimbo


I think there was a issue with the regulator thingy either that you are puss at welding. I think i'm just a little less puss than you. Mine went great.


Dave.

[Owen]

Roughasguts,
With regard to renting bottles, there is a major difference between industrial gases and household LPG.
Oxy, Argon etc are filled to high pressure - up to 20,000 KPI.
Acetylene has it's own maintenance issues regarding acetone and the carrier in the cylinders. These factors mean the bottles have to be regularly tested and certified. The bottles also cost a lot more to manufacture, so the gas companies need to get a return on their investment.


MIG welding, and to a lesser extent DC TIG welding is generally easier for the novice to come to terms with than stick welding on thin metals.
Stick still has it's place, but these days it's more to do with the chemical and metallurgical advantages than ease of use or speed.

Finally, aluminium welding requires better quality, better maintained machinery and a higher skill level than steel or stainless.
Not a week goes by that I'm not forced to tell someone that yes, they can burn aluminium wire in a brand X machine, but NO, they won't get a good job... especially if they aren't highly skilled.

If you are intent on learning and/or buying equipment to weld alloy, do yourself a favour and hire some gear first to see what they do and don't do well.

DO NOT hire them from a general hire company. Go to a welding supply company so that they are set up properly.

PM me if you like and I'll give you a list of things to look for and how it should be set up.

Hamish73
If you're ever looking for a job let me know.
Always looking for sparky's

[Owen]

Its a misconception that MIG is better than stick. Mig has its place and was designed for cut down time in long runs and continous welding situations because of the drum feed. Its pus to use gasless, so your up for a bottle to do it properly. It can do allow and smaller thickness steel than stick, but you cant beat stick for thick sections amp for amp.

Cheers mate

Methinks you are making some pretty serious generalizations here Scott.

There is no doubt that in the MAJORITY of situations that MIG is "better" than stick.

MIG can be "puss" to use gasless if you use crap wire or try to use it in an application to which it isn't suited. e.g. panel work.
On heavy sections with wires like NR232, NR233, NS3M, Fabshield 21 etc etc etc it is a joy to use. Well as close to "joy" as hanging onto a bloody welder gets ;)

Can't beat stick amp for amp??
Maybe... If you hamstring the MIG by restricting amps and therefore travel speed. But you get your stick welder with a 4mm rod and 150 - 200 amps and I'll get my MIG at 280 - 320 amps with some 1.6mm metal cored wired and we'll see who can lay down more weld on a 16mm plate.

It's horses for courses. No one welding process, wire, electrode, brand etc does everything so well it replaces all others.

You don't own one fishing rod do you? ;)

What is "best" for the job is determined by .... what is available.... what is affordable .... what do you have the skills to use

[Hamish73]

IMO, stick welding is limited these days to situations where quality is the only consideration. Engineers have q lot bigger range of filler maqterial and shiel;ding properties.
Go out to caltex refinery and you wont see a mig in sight, all pipework is done with a stick. No inverters, dirty old Lincolns, mostly engine driven Dc generators. Comes back to the 90% operator 10% equipment thingy... kinda like fishing I guess.
For joe average a mig is the only option, especially with ally. I have considerable experience with all forms of welding (just testing then whilst fixing them), and still managed to turn a small crack in my tinny into a big fuggin hole ::) :o TIG welding thin 'used' ally isnt as easy as it looks.

Owen, than ks for the offer but I'm happy where I am. Out of intrest whats your company?

[Owen]

Hamish,
Not really looking to advertise here, but the offer stands any time you feel like a change.
I'm probably your "opposition" at the moment.
We have two stores in Brisbane. One in Eagle Farm and one in Rocklea.
Our logo is a green triangle.

I'm in Gladstone myself and desperately looking for a sparky with experience on welders.

[ozscott]

Cheers Owen. I was generalising. I think some people who dont know better think that MIG is superior to stick and thats not the case.

There are pros and cons for both. An example of a con for MIG that noone has mentioned is that because it only welds well (and you can only see it properly) running Gas, you cant then take it into the wind - even fairly light wind, because the wind blows the shield away.

Cheers

[ozscott]

I have had some fun learning to TIG 2.5mm alloy at TAFE - using $6000 machines though. Especially with pulse, you can get into a nice vibe and lay very nice tight scales of weld. I havent tried thinner stuff.

Cheers

[ozscott]

I bought some magnets from your Eagle Farm store a while back. Nice gear in there including some nice TIGS. I had a look at the mezanine that had been welded up from memory by one of the MIGs that you had for sale.

Cheers

[Roughasguts]

Thanks Owen, that all makes sence re the bottles.
So what sort of dollars would you think FNQ, or me self would be looking at to set us up with a good package that wouldn't disapoint us and give good welds.

Also what models brands welding wires Etc would be very helpfull.

[blaze]

Hi RAG
3 to 5 g IMO for a good pulse mig
cheers
blaze

[Owen]

RoughAsGuts,
Blaze's figures are realistic.

It depends on what you want to do & what your budget is.
Do you have 3 phase power available?

As rule of thumb if you stick to a name brand - be it Lincoln, Cigweld, WIA etc, and get the biggest machine you can afford above 220 amps then you will have something you can do reasonable work with.
Minimum spend about $1400 and don't be shocked if you end up at $3000

You don't need pulse. It's good, but not necessary.

2nd hand is a good option if the machine is not too old and you know what to look for. Expect to have to spend money on a new gun, gas lines etc though.

An AC/DC TIG will start at about $4500
If you have 415V power then an old "pie warmer" can be picked up for as little as $1,000 in good working order. I cut my teeth on these and I still have a soft spot for them.

Brands of welding wires is a personal thing and depends on how you set the machine up.
For steel it doesn't make a huge difference, although wires made in Italy, New Zealand, Australia, Turkey & Korea generally feed better.
Some of the stuff coming out of China is good and some is crap. Same for Malaysia.

In ally you have to set the machine up to suit the wire you use.
Some wires are "double shaved" to give them very consistant diameter, but this in turn makes them softer & harder to feed reliably.
Brands such as Lincoln, Cigweld, Safra are all fine if set up correctly.

No matter what anyone tells you, DO NOT use 0.9mm alloy wire in a standard MIG setup. 1.0mm is the smallest that will feed reliably without a push-pull gun setup (add $2,000 + ). I can't speak for all boat buliders, but I know what we sell to the major Queensland manufacturers and NONE of them use 0.9mm

The secret with ally is preparation, proper setup and care of you equipment. There are NO shortcuts.

[notsa]

I don`t know if some of you remember the dillon mk 3 oxy&acetylene torch,I have seen coke cans cut in half and welded up again with no distortion. Hav not seen one for years probably old hat now.

[harlequin]

welded in construction for 15 yrs got dli tickets up to including 7 dont do it much now only to repair me ally boat when i split the hull from wave jumpin when i dont catch fish which seems to be most of the time now. all the advice is good on here stick welding does have its place it is brilliant for out of position welding overhead vert up etc. and most repairs on me ally hull are overhead with a mig and it is hard to say the least burnt to buggry even with protective clothing ally dross just seems to burn more deeply than steel . cellulose rods run better with moisture in em we used to wet em low hyd hate all moisture and gp should be dry if you wanna weld galv try satin craft 12 or 13 ? the last two digits on a welding rod give you the type of rod low hy are 16 & 18 general purpose GP 12& 13 cellulose root run rods burn in fizzy sticks 10 &11 the first two give you tensile strength in mpa 42 for most 48 for low hy . my hull is only 3.5 mm thick all over sides & self draining deck so i use 200 amp transmig with upgraded 200amp bernard gun 0.9 mm wire as i use it to repair welds arnt long production runs so dont hurt the duty cycle . mig has three tranfer modes dip globular and spray ally uses two dip and spray and 99% is done in spray which takes place at 180amp and above thios is why 250amp machine is recommended & why tig is recommended below 3mm thick ally. most influence on any weld pool is the length of the arc gap whether stick or mig short arc gap gives colder weld pool largeer will give you hotter you will constantly change you gap as you weld as yuo will your travel speed have a go you will love it the concentration needed on the weld pool will put yuo in a world of ya own and tyou will get scarred to buggery as a bonus

[Roughasguts]

Thanks guy's you information and knowlege is usefull and unfortunately made me think.

So come to think of it my welding is not as good on me last big job when I used my trailer as a jig. I set my frame work for me Bi-fold 3.5 metre gate on that.

The welds where good where I clamped my work, but then I used the magnets as clamps, these welds where dificuilt to get a weld on both bits of clamped metal, seemed to weld only one side of the join ???? Is this cause of the Magnets negatively pushing the weld away ?????

Some one mentioned invertor welders oppsite polarity charge Or something, so has me magnets got something to do with bad adhesion ????. From memory I left the magnets on for the run, and maybe they should only be there until tacked.

The clamped welds from memory where better and didn't need chasing out with the grinder.

The other thing, am I less likely to blow a hole with the arc closer to the job, than my natural tendency to lift the rod away from the weld when I hear it starting to blow through. So should I keep the Arc in close ??

Sorry for all the questions, really wan't to be better at welding than what I am.

Guess I can't recognise what I did right for a good weld, and fall back in to the habit of doing it wrong and get ordinary weld.

If I ever master Arc welding, then I will spend some bigger bucks and get a good universal set up.

[blaze]

when welding you need to watch the molten pool and redirect this pool by moving the rod/angle of mig/ direction of heat source of tig. So if you are only bonding to one side it means that by the time the molten pool reaches that side it has cooled down, in bigger gaps you may need to build a bridge of molten pool across to your other peice of steel. I find it easier to bridge gaps doing vertical up welds weaving my way up. Love using low hydrigen rods and my all time favorite would be welding cast, have sat and played for hours repairing cast housing. The thing I hate most is over head welds and burns. The more you play with a welder the better you will get. I also get very ordanary with a stick if I havnt touched one for a while so often is better
cheers
blaze

[Hamish73]

The welds where good where I clamped my work, but then I used the magnets as clamps, these welds where dificuilt to get a weld on both bits of clamped metal, seemed to weld only one side of the join ???? Is this cause of the Magnets negatively pushing the weld away ?????

no, nothing like that. You must have welding the joint differently, from a different angle etc etc



Some one mentioned invertor welders oppsite polarity charge Or something, so has me magnets got something to do with bad adhesion ????.

reverse polarity is only used when migwelding with flux cored wire, or when TIG welding. If your arc welder is the old heavy style, your output will be AC output, therefore there is no such thing as reverse polarity anyway.





The other thing, am I less likely to blow a hole with the arc closer to the job, than my natural tendency to lift the rod away from the weld when I hear it starting to blow through. So should I keep the Arc in close ??

a stick welder is 'constant current' , so the current should be the same regardless of your arc length. Having said that, the more arc length you have, the higher the arc voltage will be, which will mean there will be more heat in the weld.

[ozscott]

I reverse the polarity on my DC invertor stick/TIG depending on what Im doing. You can chose to get more grunt to the job or the stick that way. Also some rods have different polarity and you need to change to suit.

Cheers