Been netting again

[laugag]

Well some the local indigneos folk came home last night with a huge swag of barra again from the Fitzroy River with their ring nets (they live beside my inlaws).


I think it's utterly despicable that there aren't one law for all...

>:( >:( >:(

Anybody else know where aboriginals or torres strait people are allowed to net anywhere they like without license or proscution??

[devocean]

Bit sad isnt it.

[Dunks]

Who are the racist ones?

[Luc]

If some poor sod from fisheries took them to court, the magistrate/judge would simply dismiss the case as they were using traditional methods to catch a few fish for sustenance.

It's poor form.

Luc

[laugag]

If some poor sod from fisheries took them to court, the magistrate/judge would simply dismiss the case as they were using traditional methods to catch a few fish for sustenance.

It's poor form.

Luc


Absolutely. Here in Rockhampton, the fisheries DID confiscate their nets but and the magistrate DID give them their nets back basically paving the way for open slather.

As if "traditional" methods of caching fish included the used of monofilament ring nets.

[snakecatcher]

As if "traditional" methods of caching fish included the used of monofilament ring nets.

I agree mate - if aboriginals want to hunt in the traditional manner then they should have every right to do so but it must be done in a traditional manner. This means they make their own nets from native materials, use a boat without a motor etc etc. If they want to use modern hunting tools then the same rules should apply for all.

[hooknose]

More like a dugout or bark canoe, rock fish trap and spear !!!

[Luc]

I beleive there was a similar episode in the NT where duggons were hunted with tinny's/outboards and rifles.

Got thrown out of court as simply traditional hunting.

If you gonna use modern tools, same rules for all.

Luc

[gunnabuild1]

Yep gotta agree, took guts and hard work to paddle a bark canoe or whatever and take on something that weighed as much you do in its own element with your major piece of tackle a sharp stick.Indigenous people of any country knew more about conserving the environment than we realise,watching your kids die because you took too much last season will do that for you.

[hooknose]

hey gunnabuild1,
Cry me a river !!!

[FNQCairns]

WOW the PC era is officaly over, it's been near 15 years since I have seen free speech in this area!

I think it is wrong also, fat chance anything will change though!

cheers fnq

[84mick]

Yep I agree FNQCairns nothing will get done because if they did they would get called racist! Double standards and its pretty pathetic I think.
Well thats my 2 cents worth. ;)

[Obi _ Wan]

I have been watching this thread for a few days now, really did not want to get involved as i have some pretty strong fellings on the subject.
I spent quite a bit of time up in the Gulf, up past Gove, across the top, into Darwin and down the coast almost to the WA border, did that run about 4 times over 8 months or so and saw many things that would blow a lot of you away.
There are many places where you and i can not go without a special permit and a lot of things we are not allowed to do that others can.

Won't say any more other than to say, Traditional fishing by TRADITIONAL MEANS ONLY, that is the only way, any other is totally wrong in my opinion.

Sorry if i have upset anybody but after all we are entitled to voice our opinions aren't we?

Cheers,
Obi_Wan.

[disorderly]

Have to agree with the above sentiments.
Also its doing the aboriginal people no favours in my eyes.
Such double standards make it difficult for me not to have racist thoughts.
After all I,m Australian too.

cheers Scott

[sarg]

Same rules for all why should they have to abide by the rules of white dictatorship. Wether you like it or not this is there land (oop's sorry we took it by force it's ours now, and to all those other people trying too come here by boat sorry your skins not the right colour you'll have to go home) they have 10's of thousands of years on anybody here and for those years the land and fisheries were kept in pristine condition, they depended on it, then whities came and we have what we have today hell they probably think "they've screwed the fisheries enough we might aswell do our bit as well".

You may have to get special permits to travel across centain spots in this country thats because there stolen land has been rightfully returned to them i'm sure if someone wanted to walk through "your" backyard you would have something to say?

How much is a huge swag full of barra anyway? How often is it done? How many people does it feed?

I agree with some points though hopefully soon we will have the same rules for all so the next time(actually hopefully there won't be a nextime) a drunk aboriginal man dies from a sevre beating from a white policeman, the policeman will be charged when he should be not when public anger demands it.

Hope nobody gets upset just my opinion.

Andrew

ps gunnabuild1 please don't step out of line again!!

[disorderly]

Hi Sarg,
Have to agree with you on the time it took to get some charges laid on the white cop.Absolutely discraceful!.
As to taking Australia by force.Sorry mate it wasnt me .I wasnt there.Neither were you.
I am here now though,as are you.We all need to get on,so in my eyes ,we all need to live by the same set of rules.

cheers Scott

ps not upset by your opinions at all.

[cqfreshie]

Phewww .... very emotive topic this one. Been discussed before, I believe.:(

What is the main problem?

Is it because Aborigional people are catching traditional foods?::)

Why not .... this is their land. Our forefathers invaded the land ... and progressively stuffed it!

Is it because they don't observe a bag limit?::)

As above.

Is it because they use modern technology?::)

Do we have sole right to use modern technology? Of course not. If so .... get rid of your Japanese, or American, lures, rods, lines, reels .... on and on and on we go.:-/

Another point ... if we had been invaded in the 40's, would you be disgruntled by their new rules? Would you insist on your rights?

Look to the north west and think hard fellow fishos .....


The only argument I have in this regard is that "I was born on this land, not by choice, but by natural events. Am I not a native?" :confused:

Cheers

[laugag]

How much is a huge swag full of barra anyway? How often is it done? How many people does it feed?



Answer: LOTS, WEEKLY and DOES THAT REALLY MATTER?


I am not trying to debate the points of whether or not this country should have been established by "whities" or not.

I am only making the point that by having two sets of laws within a soiciety for different races, has the strong potential for friction and resentment. This in turn can lead to racial vilification. I think the courts decision is BS and I dont' blame aboriginals for taking full advantage of it.

ppps Just my opiniion, and I hope noone is offendedy by my remarks

[kingtin]

Like Obi_Wan, I intended to steer clear of this, but I will state my position and respond no further ::)

Black, white, yellow, whingeing pom, greasy spick, wog, mexican, indigenous, immigrant............what does it matter?::) We're all Australians and as such, should be subject to the same laws and receive equal treatment under the eye of the law. We all know that doesn't happen and that the pollies are responsible for the uneven handedness that exists in many areas of our society. If that uneven handedness continues, be it black deaths in custody, affording of rights to one group not afforded to others, ignoring certain groups flouting fishing laws for fear of the racist card being played, then Oz will become a battleground, just as certain areas of the UK have become.........and a right wing backlash will then ensue

One could argue for ever about traditional methods and one could also argue that if traditional rights were to be invoked, then traditional methods only should be applied. The truth of the matter is that "tradition" is only invoked if it is to be of benefit to those who swear that they hold true to their traditions, but let's be honest, who in any populace genuinely hold true to their traditions?

The Aboriginal flag? isn't that something that has been used as a rallying point for "traditional rights" and yet isn't it strange and ironic that nowhere in aboriginal history (tradition) that I can see, has a flag been used as a nationalistic emblem. Indeed, Aboriginal history shows a clan system that was far from nationalistic and was strongly protective of their own individual "lands" just as native North Americans were. Is the Aboriginal flag not something that has been "adopted" from "whites" to serve a purpose that is in opposition to 'white colonisation' and as such, is indicative of the hypocrisy that abounds in all cultures?

We are all influenced in one way or other by the traditions (ways) of others so are we all not bastardised and hypocritical if we imply that we have traditional "rights"? Traditional in what way?

We evolve..............whingeing Pom? Is he an Angle, a Jute, a Saxon, a Celt, or a Gael? All these races, and others, have bastardised the original inhabitants of England and the "traditional" Morris dancer, familiar to tourists may well have Italian Blood, just as the traditional longline fisherman of the Orkneys, may well have Swedish blood.

What country in the world can claim to truly know who were the original inhabitants? It has been proven that certain races long held to be "originators" were in fact "colonisers".

"Tradition" is a tool to obtain benefit, just as declaring one's race obtains benefit, be it financial benefit, egotistical benefit, or simply a need to belong to a certain culture for whatever reason that is only best known to the declaree. Just why do Aboriginals with white blood in their veins declare themselves to be black as opposed to white?

I have Irish blood.........when in England did I declare myself to be Irish? No! Now I'm here, I'm Australian, and as such, abide by Australian laws which are (supposedly) for the benefit of all, whilst at the same time they provide protection for minorities. That is the basis for all laws (again, supposedly). Now, should the providing of protection for minorities entail providing them with rights that aren't afforded to the majority? I personally, think not.

Just as 'traditional rights" (re fishing) involves the use of "white" methodology, so too does the treatment of "Northern Aboriginals" in certain Brisbane hospitals involve the free passage (plane or train ) of certain family members to those hospitals. It also provides for free lodgings for those family members. Is this privilege afforded to the family members of a poor white patient? No!

Please do not spout "tradition" to me. It is racially divisive and flies in the face of Aussieness. It is a wonderful thing to be proud of one's heritage but an abomination to attempt to use that heritage to obtain benefits not afforded to the majority. This is a democracy, and as such we should afford to our minorities, be they whatever race, only what is afforded to the majority.

We are one................and bollocks to those who would prefer not to be, in order to obtain a "pecuniary advantage".

Just stating my position;D

kev

[Dirtysanchez]

Kingtin for PM

Go Kev, well said.

[flick]

Sorry Sarge, I didn't steal anything from anybody. I was born here, and I am happy to be held responsible for any actions I make, but don't hold me responsible for what happened 200 years ago. Until everybody in this country is treated equally for their actions no matter what their skin colour we will have racism.

You cannot have different laws for people of different race or religion. Under your logic, you would have to believe that religion is an excuse to disregard the law.

In this country, an aboriginal can call me "whitey" but I can't call an aboriginal "black". That is racism in its purest form. Me not being able to use a net, but somebody of a different race being able to is racism.

In my opinion act as you wish to be treated.

Jim

[sarg]

Hi all,

I'm just saying that there should be a level of tolerence among the non-indiginous. They have lived a certain way for thousands of years and then are supposed to abide by the rules of people who have been here for a couple of hundred years, as cq freshie said if we had of been invaded and then the rules changed again would we insist on our rights...damn striaght we would.

As disorderly said in relation to invading this land it wasn't this generation but we need to acknowledge that it was wrong and that is a massive step to getting equallity. As cq said we didn't get a choice in being born here but we all have the ability to fill in the blanks for ourselves and know whats right and wrong.

Laugag the only reason I said how many does it feed is because aboriginal people don't have it as easy as we do in this socity so can't afford nice boats and the latest tackle so there swag may feed a few families same as when we bag out on mackeral I know I share my catch around. Touche on your pps

Aboriginal Flag, They didn't need one before! Sure there clans may have fought occasionally but unity among clans was needed as people had to marry into clans other than there own to keep from interbreeding etc it was really quite a complicated process.

Flick didn't metion religon at all and I called you white not an aboriginal person we call them indiginous what are they supposed to call us? Black has been used in a dirogetry(spelling?) was in the past which is justifiably why it may not be liked.

I'm not looking for a fight or anything just open minds and understanding (as much as we can being white) and a bit of sympathy.

Thanks
Andrew :)

[roz]

I really think the debate is getting to emotional, I've read a couple of irrational statements.

The point I would like to make here is.

What are we going to achieve by pointing the finger of blame at anyone. The result would just be devisive and totally unproductive.

Due to european colonization and the resullting exploiatation of a finite resourse. Wild fish stocks are dimishing, unfortunately EVERYONE has to pay the price, like it or not.

If we want furture generations to enjoy what we are sadly still taking for granted, I think there has to be across the board bag limits for all, no exceptions.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

roz.

[84mick]

Wow this is really getting big, Kev and Andrew I have to say that was very well said! I can understand from everyones point of view. I was born in Australia and am very proud of it, I served 5 years of my live for Oz and I look at everyone equally . The law will never be perfect in my eyes but at the same time it can be.

Mick.

[jtpython]

And as i believe laugag they were up near the new bridge for the last two weeks netting , now tell me what are they doing with the fish . GO FIGURE.
Is it ok for them to sell fish as well.

[gunnabuild1]

Not sure how I stepped out of line sarg no offence was meant to anyone and deliberately tried to avoid the political noises.
Just expressing admiration for the courage it took to hunt and survive before the technology we have today.

[hooknose]

Hey Ausfishers,
We seemed to have strayed from the main issue here.

As someone who grew up and spent 35 years of my life in Rocky and the Capricorn coast I've got to say that the ILLEGAL netting situation has been terrible forever and that whites as well as Aboriginal/ Torres Straight Islanders are equally to blame.

Locals who fish and actually care about the fishery have always done it tough since there has always been a mentality by residents of some sections of town( and the Cap Coast) that they have a right to string a net just because they always have and their fathers always did. Fisheries know who most of the main culprits are but very rarely are they clever enough or well prepared enough to catch them.

My fishing buddies and I cut off and destroyed plenty of nets from Cooraman Ck, Fishermans Beach, Emu Park main beach, the mouth of Kinka Ck and Corio Bay during the 1990's and openly confronted the offending scumbags in the local pubs etc causing a lot of embarresment for them. During that time not one of these same scumbags were caught or prosecuted by Fisheries. We liked to think we did our bit but in reality we didn't touch the sides.

As a kid we would catch great Barra from around Tanachy Rocks off the bank but as we got older we didn't seriously fish the river because of the terrible pressure placed on it by overfishing by pro's and illegal netting. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the Fitzroy is one of the most(if not the most) netted river on the east coast and thats just by pro's without this other crap thrown in.

The actions of the "traditional fisherman" early last year when he strung a net at a popular swimming beach(Zilzie) in broad daylight whilst families etc were on the beach brought this issue to a head. It was reported in the local paper because he took a haul of Mullet, Whiting, Blue Salmon etc that was far in excess of both his and his families IMMEDIATE needs. This bloke was shown( in follow up media reports) as being quite indignant about his actions and he reckoned he had the right to do it.

It is this type of arrogance that is causing the problem, his actions caused a lot of embarresment for some sections of the Aboriginal/ Torres St Islander community in the Rocky area. Other sections of that same community have taken it as a green light which leaves us with the situation we have today.

I even heard that on opening day a local pro strung a net completely across the mouth of Gavial Ck leaving no escape route for any Barra. This type of action by a pro was unheard of in the town reaches of the river but he was able to do this because he had employed a local aboriginal as an offsider and had him in the boat with him.

Laugag has a right to bitch about this because it is being thrown in our faces by an inefficient Fisheries operation starting at the top with the politicians who allow this great river to be continually raped both legally and illegally. Imagine how good the Fitzroy would be be if it was efficiently managed, not to mention the tourism potential.

Its a crying shame !!!

[laugag]

Couldn't have said it better Hooknose. The only problem is how do you change it? Courts and pollies are P/weak so I guess vigalatism like you mentioned in the 1990s is likely to occur more often. :-*

I guarantee that If my prop happens to get caught in a net that has completely cut off a creek (like gavial), I'l' be "freeing" with a very big knife ;)

[sarg]

Hi all,

Gunnabuild1 sorry mate I was being sarcastic because hooknose posted cry me a river.

And hooknose I don't disagree if someone takes more than their immediate needs and is obviously flaunting the law then thats not right at all. And even if using nets I still think they should be some sort of bag limit no idea how though many fish may die and not able to be released.

jtpython they are able to sell the fish if they have an indiginous commercial fishing licence just the same as any other pro.

Andrew

[bay_firey]

Quote "Fish caught in the Fitzroy River were being sold illegally in Rockhampton by people abusing laws for traditional land owners. Aborigine Lester Adams said yesterday" end Quote

As reported in The Morning Bulletin on Wednesday 28/02/07.

[bay_firey]

Seems a small enough file to upload is very hard to read

here is a link to a pdf of the same document

http://www.mchap.com/reelfun/pics/tmb28.02.07.pdf

hope this works

[laugag]

Thanks Mark I hope people read the article.
nuff said.
G

[JoshvL]

I also feel very strongly about this topic. I do agree the aboriginals should be able to fish by their traditional methods, how ever when it comes down to them using 6 and 8 boats at a time to drift net 2 beaches it becomes a joke. Down the south coast of NSW i have seen them come into shore with thousands of fish in the boats, if they had've taken them home to feed their people than fair enough, i saw them selling the fish to anyone who wanted to buy them, they were making a killing off it, that is not fair. I have also seen them bring the clyde river and moruya rivers to hold nothing but piddly little bream and snapper many times. These 2 rivers are now useless to me as a fishing spot as you do catch nothing. How is this fair? One rule for all i say!

[johnlikes2fish]

Call the fisheries then JoshvL this isnt legal, if you catch people selling fish without a license they can and will prosecute. There is no use moaning here about it call the fisheries.

[JoshvL]

Call the fisheries then JoshvL this isnt legal, if you catch people selling fish without a license they can and will prosecute. There is no use moaning here about it call the fisheries.


Unfortunately John, I have and they have done nothing. I used to work for Fisheries and have a few friends that work for DPI NSW and they even said to me they can't do anything about it. They also drift net the rivers late at night on a full moon, i've seen fisheries inspectors charge these people only for them to be doing it again a few weeks later.

[bay_firey]

Read the posted article

There have been charges that were later overturned on appeal mid 2006

[johnlikes2fish]

I read the article and it doesnt say a hell of a lot here is a link to the court findings
http://www.nntt.gov.au/newsletter/hotspots/1144909682_3572.html.
They tried him for the use of the net which was found to be legal right or wrong in our minds it is legal ( I think it goes against what maintaining cultural traditions is because this should to be to maintain customs ie methods of fishing or hunting (spearing etc) and the access to traditional foods not otherwise available such as dugong,turtle meat etc old methods such as blocking creek mouths are obviously not going to be acceptable today a temporary blockage such as a net may be the only answer but only for family consumption based on a realistic family not some vague definition that allows 200 people to be related) , what they should have charged him with was selling the fish if he indeed was because I believe that is illegal

[Rainbowrunner]

betcha the local pros dont mind at all

[1975fflh]

Indiginous people (who didnt evolve here anyway just landed a few thousand years before others) are allowed to fish restricted areas and take restricted fish and crustations etc, even on water catchment areas (the ones for the drinking water) I you are caught in there just being there it is fines up to $5,000.

They can camp and do whatever they want as long as they say they are aboriginal.

Another interesting thing is that to be aboriginal you have to be accepted by the local indiginous people as be aboriginal ( you dont have to be a dark colour).

Get onto next door tell them your great grandaddy had a aboriginal girlfriend and you are the result twice removed and enjoy fishing where you want, no one can check if you are lying or not as there are no records.

Thats why the government always asks if you are on the forms. (I never say yeas or no or male female because it shouldnt matter)

[laugag]

).
Get onto next door tell them your great grandaddy had a aboriginal girlfriend and you are the result twice removed and enjoy fishing where you want, no one can check if you are lying or not as there are no records.


Sad but true

Old indigneous mate went out again last nite and came back with chockaas with barra and most "whities" spend hundreds if not thousands trying to catch just one >:(

Two points,
1 surely going out every few days and coming home with barra is too much to feed even a big family (nobody can live on fish all the time) therefore they must be doing somthing else with this fish

and
2 why do some of his mates that go with him are as white as myself?

[Fat Chilli]

Sarg or anyone,

Can anyone name a populated country that at some time has not been taken over or conqured at some stage thoughout time/history, have a look at the UK for example and you will find it was conquored or invaded by almost every country in Europe, the same applies for Asia and the Americas. So should I know go back to the UK and claim traditional rights, as my family has been dated back to the 9th century, no.

Countries get conquered, customs and traditions evolve, that's the world we live in and I'm sure it won't change due to 'white man' taking over Gondwanna a few hundred years ago or other countries in the far off future.

To end my rant: It's a great country and we all need to look after it. Screw race, creed, colour, tradition, religion, one set of laws for all, set by the people.

[Fat Chilli]

As disorderly said in relation to invading this land it wasn't this generation but we need to acknowledge that it was wrong and that is a massive step to getting equallity.

You can acknowledge it, as you have done.... for my perspective, refer to my previous post. As I personally think you you are wrong. as ownership of the previous generational change has nothing to do with equality (being equal).

Our indiginous peoples, similar to the North American Indians (or correctly/prefferably known as 'First Nation') have the same choices as anyone else and in high proportion of situations they have easier, less costly access to those choices, again it is their choice. If they do not choose to utilise those choices, then don't cry foul. It's their choice.

Having spent several years working alongside / with, Canadian First Nation aboriginies (several are still very good mates), serving in the Aussie Army with Aboriginal mates and working in outback communities, my observations are that those that have moved on and accepted the changes and utilised the choices available have flourished both finacially and in life (they reckon they are happy:o ), however, they still maintain a strong grasp of their culture, which is great and I learnt lots from them, (I even attended a Sweat Lodge). Those that sit back and whinge, indulge and constantly want hand outs go no where and probably never will. Just my observations and 4.5 cents.

Back to fishing, ice fishing is cool (literally), but my wife used to go fishing with the locals on the First Nation reservation where she taught and using C4 or TNT was apparently fairly common - great traditional method...eh!

[roz]

I havn't read the whole thread, I don't know if anyone has made this point but....

In Queensland, indiginous peoples are exempt from state fisheries laws in certain cases.

One example I can give.

A fish reserve in a national park that I often visit bans the taking of mud crabs.

The local indiginous peoples are exempt and ARE able to crab in this area.

But they have to be LOCAL indiginous people, not simply indiginous, they (the non locals) can however, gain permission from the local indiginous people to go into these protected areas and catch crab.

Basically indiginous people are not covered by the fisheries act in QLD.

r.

[tunaman]

NEWS FLASH! To all indiginous people. You take all you want. How can the people of australia stand in the way of a people that has looked after this country for over 60 thousands plus years. IMO. This thread is a disgrace.



signed tunaman

[Fat Chilli]

Why is it disgracefull to have an opinion, whether it be right or wrong in your eyes? You voice yours all the time.

[tunaman]

Cause what I have stated is true. Yes I speak my mind and thats the plus about TM. Its not about having a opinion, Iam all for that, as you know. Just think about it, isnt fair, fair enough. Arnt the people been through enough. What else do the people want to take away for them.




signed tunaman

[crabman1958]

Its A Wonder They Got So Many.been To Sydney Fish Markets Lately.i Think We All Need To Look In Our Back Yards.

[kingtin]

Cause what I have stated is true. Yes I speak my mind and thats the plus about TM. Its not about having a opinion, Iam all for that, as you know. Just think about it, isnt fair, fair enough. Arnt the people been through enough. What else do the people want to take away for them.

signed tunaman

Sorry mate, but that's emotive claptrap. The sufferings of the indigenous population is not of my doing and me and mine will NOT carry the burden of guilt that your post seems to imply we should.

Yes, enough has been done to them, but it was/is not of my doing and the inference that they should be entitled to laws that give them benefits far above the majority is dangerous and counter-productive. The land which they claim as their's should not be used in order for the majority population to atone for sins perpetrated by those who went before. That is not only pandering to the greedy and manipulative but also denigrating to the good honest democratic folk who abide by the laws of Australia and who throughout their daily lives help other be they black, white or yellow.

We are all Australians...........it serves no good purpose for one group or individual to have a huge "chip on their shoulders" and to expect laws enacted for the protection of their culture, to benefit them at the expense of the majority. By all means enact laws for their protection, but not in such a way that those laws can be used to "put one over" on those who you feel owe it to you to make atonement for past mistreatment. If the laws are laws to protect tradition, then go about those laws in a traditional manner.

As fat Chilli has said, there are those who have "moved on" and are living happy and productive lives and this is the major problem here, there are too many of those who haven't moved on...........be they grogged up Aboriginals with a chip on their shoulder, or white do-gooders who think that everything will be solved by giving huge handouts (at the taxpayers expense) Handouts that are grossly mismanaged by the Indigenous people themselves. ............people who claim to be living the "traditional way" but can't manage to without a leg up from those innocents who they blame for their misfortune.

IT IS TIME TO MOVE ON....period.

Throughout my dealings with the child care system I have constantly heard it said and indeed, on paper, proven, that those who abuse their children do so, because they were abused. I have also heard it said (by kids) that they perpetrated abuse because "that's what mum and dad did". There are thousands of the abused out there who do not abuse quite simply because they "moved on". They handled their anger/despair at their own expense in order to protect others from what they may otherwise do if they didn't handle that anger. They did not allow a chip on their shoulder to take root in their psyche and dominate their's and their families lives. They do not expect handouts as compensation for what was perpetrated upon them by others, and they do not expect special treatment under the eyes of the law.

They "stand up and are counted" they rise above their grief, anger, and sorrow, and move on.............despite their genuine grievance, they rise above the easy recourse of blaming others and join in with that society whom others of their like blame for past sins. They become part of the society who's forefathers sinned in order to use their democratic vote to better that society. They use the benefits of that society/culture to further benefit them and their children. They work towards that goal and they become model citizens of a different culture and society to that which they once belonged. They do not use their past mistreatment as a crutch to get benefits that would not otherwise be afforded to them.

These are the ones who thrive and prosper, financially, physically and mentally. So it is with culture. Those who hold on to the "old ways" whilst still choosing to carry a huge chip on their shoulder, are likely to perpetrate further abuse on the offspring. I have heard social workers tell kids, and adults, "You have a right to be angry, I understand why you behave as you do" That kind of psychbabble is endemic and it is self-defeating. The abused use it as a crutch and excuse. Understanding is not condoning and "having a right" to be angry, is not the same as using that anger to get what you want.........unfortunately these are the mixed messages social workers send out to abusers just as the white pollies and the black elders send out mixed messages to the indigenous population.

The majority of that population "extracts" from other cultures only what they deem fit (ie motorised fishing boats) and invariably that is something that gives them short term satisfaction/gain but long term loss and dilution of culture. They feel they have a right to be angry and behave anti-socially and they misinterpret that right as a green light to go ahead with their attitude/behaviours. Just as the perpetrator of child abuse, they are quite simply hypocrites and cowards who live for the now and blame any of their transgressions on the cruel circumstances inflicted on their forefathers. They have come to a fork in the road of their lives and have simply taken the shorter, easy, less stony path, to misery and vindictiveness, rather than travel a longer harder path to peace, reconciliation, and integration. they have "CHOSEN" to dwell on their misery, to abuse their kids and drown themselves in grog, rather than take the harder path of forgiveness and acceptance. So PLEASE Mr TM............do not lay their misery at my doorstep, I've had enough of my own in my lifetime, thank you.

I am not racist, I am far from it, as anyone who knows my history in the Labour Party and Transport and General Worker's union will know. I have grown up since then though ;D and now simply tell it as it is (for me) As opposed to fighting for how I think it should be. ;D

Yes, the indigenous population has been cruelly mistreated. yes, they have a bloody hard time of it and it doesn't seem to be getting any better. yes, I sympathise/empathise. yes, indigenous affairs are a complete balls up. NO! I do not accept responsibility and will not support legislation that allows them traditional rights via untraditional methods.

What has this to do with fishing??????? Quite simply this, if we continue to support laws that are enacted by those politically correct knobheads who can't see that all they're doing is creating division amongst race, and pandering to those who think the world owes them a living, then the dugong are doomed as are the barra in certain sytems. The easier they find it to catch, and the quicker they turn a buck, then the more they'll do it, spurred on by the unscrupulous whitie who professes to be their mate.

Ask yourself this. Are we (Australian society) guilty of decline in dugong and fish population" Yes! But have our laws the intent of slowing that decline? I think so, although intent may not be enough. Do those laws protect dugong decline from Aboriginal impact? I think not. The easier it gets (adoption of white method) the more the dugong population will decline. Is that fair? isn't that what this thread is about? Go on, ask yourself, IS THAT FAIR?

I rest my case.

kev

[ShaneC]

Posted by accident before finishing, read below

[ShaneC]

Kingtin,
Beautifully said as usual mate, run for PM and you have my vote.

Tunaman, for a change, how about making an informed post, instead of simply going against the general concensus of the website in order to generate controversy. I would be very interested to see a post where you could generate an educated opinion regarding the issues you raise and back it up with actual facts. Ok, white settlers came to Australia, set up camp and prospered. What would have happened if the Spanish or the Dutch had done it?? We wouldn't be having this argument!!!

An indiginous population does not have a God given right to do as they please. I have and continue to work in countries that have a native population that have gone rogue. I am not saying for a second that it applies to native Australians, but there is an element of law that was introduced over 200 years ago, so the folk who were directly affected are long gone. Those that are here to enjoy the fruitful nature of life in Australia should be proud of what we have and be happy to represent it. Just because you are a descendent of an indiginous person doesnt give you the right to flaunt the law. Those that do should consider themselves lucky they are not in some countries where the punishment for crime is a lot harsher.

We are lucky to have laws.... I don't agree with some of them trust me, but at the end of the day thats what makes our home such a wonderful place to be. Black, white, yellow, purple or green, everyone should be bound by these laws, including the laws that pertain to the taking of a natural resource from a public waterway.

I am just on a roll because I spent 20 mins of in depth thought to reply to a post that got taken off before I could submit.

I am not stirring, nor am I racist, I have a black dog and a colour tv (THATS A JOKE!!!!)

Shane

[kingtin]

Kingtin,

<snip>

I am just on a roll because I spent 20 mins of in depth thought to reply to a post that got taken off before I could submit.


Shane

Mate, you've no idea what my thoughts on that thread stirred in me either :-X ;D but it is for the best, it really doesn't belong on a fishing forum unless stimulated by the topic of fishing and that particular thread wasn't. All hail to the mods and I shall attempt to keep my feelings to myself in future............please note I did say "attempt" ;D

kev

[ShaneC]

Kev

My other post was funnier, smarter and more informative.... bugger. I think I could have started a revolution. Thank God for the mods!!!!!!

One month to go, I will see you on the Pine mate.

Shane

[kingtin]

Kev

My other post was funnier, smarter and more informative.... bugger. I think I could have started a revolution. Thank God for the mods!!!!!!

One month to go, I will see you on the Pine mate.

Shane

Look forward to it mate.............I'll be flying a red flag and singing The Internationale............we'll renew the revolution together ;) ;D

"Stand up, all victims of oppression,
For the tyrants fear your might!
Don't cling so hard to your possessions,
For you have nothing if you have no rights!
Let racist ignorance be ended,
For respect makes the empires fall!
Freedom is merely privilege extended,
Unless enjoyed by one and all."

Revised lyrics courtesy of Billy Bragg



kev

[ShaneC]

Kev,

Your work is gold brother!! I hear you are the man to fish with if you are after catties for crab bait????

I bet we could share a few stories between sting rays. It would be a funny day out, trust me you bloody Poms are still no good at cricket!!!!

Check your PM's mate

[kingtin]

Kev,

you bloody Poms are still no good at cricket!!!!



This bloody Pom's no good at anything other than catching crab bait ;D

kev

[PinHead]

Kev,

Your work is gold brother!! I hear you are the man to fish with if you are after catties for crab bait????

I bet we could share a few stories between sting rays. It would be a funny day out, trust me you bloody Poms are still no good at cricket!!!!

Check your PM's mate

mate, Kev's lovely other half would shoot you for referring to catties as crab bait..they are dinner.

[tunaman]

Mr kingtin and company. Nice speech, I stand corrected. Go in pease my son;D , and lets all put blinkers on and run with the rest of the horses\ sheep.

Having a opinion is the right of all people, some agree and some dont. But it sure does make the world go around. Your advice is taken and understood.

Sorry to all member for opening my mouth once again. Facts you say, OK I think I can do that. Thanks for putting me strait.


signed tunaman

[kingtin]

Mr kingtin and company. Nice speech, I stand corrected. Go in pease my son;D , and lets all put blinkers on and run with the rest of the horses\ sheep.

signed tunaman

Mr T, my thoughts are my own and are not derived from any "company". I am far from blinkered and do not run with any sheep or horses. Sometimes I wish I did and then perhaps I wouldn't embroil myself in futile discussion. I despair of those who DO run with the sheep, either because it nurses their ego to think the run is a charitable one and they are charitable, or simply because they are brain washed, either by the politically correct, the media, or their own prejudices.

Sheep conjure up images of docile inoffensive grazers, when in fact, en masse, they can create havoc due simply to their docility and failure to see further than the other sheep. They act en masse and that is something I do not do. I am a free thinker.

My "speech" as you call it is nothing more than my thoughts based on MY experiences and seen through MY eyes, not through the rose coloured glasses of those who think that traditional rights and reconciliation will result in a better life for the indigenous population. Traditional rights must be tempered with fairness and equality, and reconciliation should not be based on the subjugation of majority rights or the free for all land grabs that those in some clans would like to see. Nor should reconciliation only be afforded to those who apologise for the sins of those who went before. I am not to be blamed for the acts of generations gone and I am not to lie down quietly simply because one group wishes to claim this land as their own.

I am not white, I am not yellow, I am not aboriginal, I am not racist, I certainly am not a sheep. What I am is part of the fellowship of man. The fellowship that believes good will only prevail through just and fair laws applicable to all. Have one law for one and exemption for another, and we are doomed.

I am Australian............not Kiwi Baaaaaaaaa ;D

kev

[Raesen]

I am not game to go here too much info/agro/love.
Whats happening with the:-
Whiting
Black Bream
Yellow fin tuna
Red emporer
Rainbow trout
Blue marlin
Spangled perch - spangled what colur is spangled ???? Perthaps all of US !!!!

We are all the same. We are Aussies and its US not our ancestors.

Happy fishing within the law to all.
Have a good one
Pete
My thoughts and my opinion

[kingtin]

I am not game to go here too much info/agro/love.
Whats happening with the:-
Whiting
Black Bream
Yellow fin tuna
Red emporer
Rainbow trout
Blue marlin
Spangled perch - spangled what colur is spangled ???? Perthaps all of US !!!!

We are all the same. We are Aussies and its US not our ancestors.

Happy fishing within the law to all.
Have a good one
Pete
My thoughts and my opinion

Pete, simple yet thoughtful. Colour has no bearing. Good on yer mate.

kev

[el_carpo]

Boy-howdy, does this issue ever sound familiar!

Change the names of the fish from barra to salmon, muskie or walleye and the names of the places to Minnesota, Wisconsin, or the Columbia River and the names of the people from aborigionies to native Americans and you could read this exact same thread on a US fishing site. Darn near word for word except "mate" isn't used and our spelling and diction is probably way more much worser but.;D

You guys covered it pretty much from top to bottom and kept it pretty darn civil for such a hot-button topic. You're mellowing.;D Remember the Asian perriwinkle pickin' thread? Whooo-hoo-hoooo-HOOO!


There is one last thing I'd like to know though (just to needlessly drag things on and give everyone a headache ;D)


Was this issue ever voted on in your legislature or is this the handy-work of an activist judge? Was this "right" granted in a courtroom or in your house of congress/parliament? It matters.

Activist judges are the bane of democracies. They usurp power from the other branches of government and pretty much kick the "checks and balances", put in place to ensure the trustworthiness of that government, right out of the window. A judge should NEVER, EVER make a law or grant a right. When he does, he stops being a judge---he's become a king. The authority to make law belongs exclusivley to the legislature.

I'm not from there so I don't know the "here's how it all happened." IF it was never voted on in parliament though, it should be. Then, you'd have a law
and not just an illegally enforced opinion of some jerk in a robe.

Be VERY careful about those types of judges. You can see what they're doing over here >:(. (Trashing my country!)


O.K. now about those perriwinkle pickers......:o! ;D

[PinHead]

ec...a judge has the power to "read" into the legislation and determine how it should be applied under common law principles and also any other legal precedents...some of our politicians are not all that intelligent (that is why they are politicians...could not find a real job...but I know you have some like that also...eg Bush..LOL) The judiciary is NOT a branch of Govt..once it becomes that then the separation of powers are dissolved and democracy is dead.

[el_carpo]

It is here. Legislative, Executive and Judicial branches. The supreme court. And you're right, they have the power to "read into" legislation NOT make (draft) it.

Over here. The legislature drafts a bill, votes on it, and if ratified, passes it to the pres. He either signs it or vetos it. If he signs it, it gets sent for review to the supreme court. The court says if the signed bill is kosher with the constitution. If it is--bingo it's now a Law.

Quick American civics 101 lesson free of charge. LOL

The danger comes when a judge has a political axe to grind and makes a ruling based on his own feelings. Perfect example is the whole gay marriage thing that's going on. I'm not going to go into it because it's way off topic, but the reason why these "couples" went to court was to try and pull a fast one over on everyone. They went to the wackiest of wacky left wing judges and sued for the right to marry. He says "Sure, go ahead." The plan was simple--set a legal precedent in a lower court. Bypass the normal system of legislature-executive-judicial checks and balances. Like I said--to usurp their authority.

Very dangerous stuff. Very! They go after much more heavy issues than fish and gay marriage.

[tunaman]

OK You want a fact! If indigenous people want to have a BBQ with a dewgong let them have it. I have a enough problems with the speed humps at woolies.hehehe, just joking.

These vegetarian sea elephants are pain in the ( bot bot ). But they do have the right to live just like all creatures.


signed tunaman

[Mod11]

You have a drivers licence!:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o